I can't get passed the "he cares for me because he is paid to". That bit sticks, it's his job, not because he wants to, but he has to. Oh dear...

I feel the same way as you scars but every now and then my T will say something that makes me feel cared for while I'm with her

Luci

Yeah I wonder all of this too. I suppose they do care in that they are human and they are capable of attachments just like everyone else.

(((Puppet; scars; Lucina; Turtle)))

I feel exactly the same! What is care anyway? Is it like love? I mean I love movies, I love chocolate, I love watching sunrises, I love my cat, I love my children, I love my husband, I love sport, but I love them all differently. If one of the things I mentioned were removed from me completely, well I would mourn some, miss others, while others might enter my mind as a flittering thought from time to time becoming less frequent over the years. Most probably in the case of our T's where we love them, and would mourn them if they left us (trust me I know all about that!), well for them if we ever left therapy we would be that flittering thought from time to time but nothing more. I don't suppose my Ex T even thinks about me once in a month, in the meanwhile I still cry about her daily. I wonder about the times she held me, was she doing it as part of her job or did she actually care? If she cared, how much did she care? I thought she cared. It felt like she cared, but then one day she just left me without even a reason. In my case I wonder.....was it like finding an injured dog on the side of the road, caring enough to give it a bit of comfort, some food perhaps, and then leaving it to fend for itself, not particularly cared how it survives after that, or if its injuries would cause it long term pain. When she left me I felt like a dog that was once loved and then left on the side of the road by someone who I thought cared.

I like your comparison to the homeless Puppet. Yes how many of us although we say we care, have the less fortunate in our hearts? I even wonder how many of my friends actually care. They say that they care, but really I wonder about that. To what level do they care? I think that they care to a level that is comfortable to them, which is not very much. You see if you are upset for a day or a week then they care, but if you are suffering from depression and bigger problems well then they grow tired of caring, and so in order to maintain friendships we put on a smile and say we are "fine", well I do anyway. It is all such a lie! To lie about feeling fine where you have superficial support in terms of people being present in your life versus to tell the truth of how you really feel and face abandonment and the possibility of living alone. Just how much does the world really care? That word freaks me out! To pay for "care" freaks me out even more! Is that all I am worth? I have to pay someone to pretend to care and understand me! I've been trying to get my head around that for so long. I feel like such a failure!

So puppet, I can't help you with the word "care" in terms of therapy, but I can say that I understand your feelings. Knowing that they will never care for you the same as you care for them is truly hurtful to say the least.

's to you Puppet and all of those who understand, because to understand you must have experienced that hurt.

B2W

scars, i so get that!!... sometimes it makes me feel more comfortable (or familiar) because then at least it makes sense, that its because its her 'job'.

luci, i'm glad you can feel it, in a way maybe that's more important, or the first step and then you can truly believe it. to be honest, i feel that too at times, although i hardly ever acknowledge it (especially not to her!!)

hi turtle, nice to meet you!
yes, such a simple but true statement, thank you, that helps!

b2w, that was so well written! i am so sorry you felt like 'a dog that was once loved and then left on the side of the road', it makes you think that maybe she didn't 'care' after all, or maybe in a more selfish way that was more about her rather then about you. i'm also sorry you think your friends don't really care, but i understand what you mean, the fear of rejection is sometimes more powerful. i think a real friend will truly care, but how much he/she can do to help is a different story. it might be like you say, too much for them. so i tend to follow the same 'i'm fine' principle too.

the truth is, 'they' are never going to 'care' about us as much as we feel for them...... and that f&(*ing hurts (when i allow it to sink in)!

i think for now, i'll cross the c-word from my dictionary, i'm just not ready to go there yet, its been completely overwhelming and paralizing and created such self-conflict and i was barely able to utter a few words in session today. so i'll just put it in a box for later.

thank you all for your replies, it does help to know i'm not alone, but i'm sorry we are all hurting (or potentially) because of this.



puppet

Ditto....to everything. All of it. It's painful. It feels almost cruel sometimes. If I let it sink in too much, it feels like a betrayal.

hi kmay,
yes, it feels so cruel doesn't it, which can make it really hard because it confuses me with cruelty done to me in my past... but if you look at it with some perspective and see the intent, then its different.
sometimes i wonder if therapists are either sadists or masochists or a bit of both!

puppet

HelooO, Puppet.

I'm so sorry that the c word is making you cringe- it really does a number- in a way, I think it's wise to keep your defenses up, because one thing I suspect T's don't really get, is the semantics of the word care. It can mean so many different things, and for those of us who have experienced a deprivation of it in childhood, seems like even a bit of care can be interpreted as "love you forever, like you for always, as long as I'm living my baby you'll be." But the reality is that T's don't care about us like that, so a bit of defensiveness around the word might just be a wise thing, as long as you're gaurding your heart in order to care for yourself. That's to say- don't let it turn into a bitter trial by not talking about it. Confront it, with T, maybe, and say how the meaning of "care" is so loaded for you- and go ahead and tell her that it's painful when she uses the word lightly, without clarifying what it means for her. My old T made it a sticking point in my therapy, that I had to believe in his "care for me" in order to heal- and it did a lot of damage because I misinterpreted his meaning.

Good luck with it- if you are able to talk about that one, I bet you'll have a painful session, though.

Biggest hugs,

Beebs

helloo beebs!
thank you for your message, you cracked me up not sure if that's what you intended, but it was good, i needed a laugh! i wasnt familiar with that quote so i googled it and read the story - which to be honest i thought was a little creepy

you are right, it would be a good topic to talk about...... but i dont know, it seems to be in the too hard basket right now. i'll just see what happens... i might just tell her to shut it if she ever mentions the c-word again. although, she has always been vague about it, talking about it more like an idea (that i cant imagine that she or anyone else 'might' care)... but even this is too much to bear right now.

hope you're doing ok beebs

hugs,
puppet

I feel like they pretend to care, when nobody else ever did. Thats how they build our trust, then we can really start opening up to them, maybe start believing in ourselfs a little. Like if our t cares and she is smart,put together somebody we look up to, then maybe we r loveable!!!! It gives us hope...but then when it suits them, they up and leave...and try to convince u that ur ready to move on. What they r doing is abandoment.....and it hurts....all over again.....i will never believe that a t really truely cares about me more than a person would care about a homeless child...yes they would feel bad for the child and help the child, but how many people would take that child into their homes ans raise it and love it ?????

The whole "care" topic and terminology is really difficult. My oldT told me he "cared" about me and then he abandoned and traumatized me so I have a huge mountain to climb in believing anyone who says they care about me.

My T and I go round and round about this. He tells me he cares about me too, he also says he respects me, likes me, and is attached and invested in me. It's really hard for me to take in his words but it's his actions that make me believe in it. And seeing the difference in his behavior and that of oldT. there were flags with oldT but I did not or could not see them and I got hurt.

My T is consistent, holds boundaries (which are reasonable and caring ones) is willing to own up to his mistakes and is not afraid of my feelings. But it's the things he does that make me believe in his care... like this week knowing Thanksgiving was on my session day he fit me in on Wednesday. Like giving me a transitional object that has meaning to him and that he has owned for many years and not just some meaningless thing in his office. Like sitting on the floor with me which is not easy for him (bad back). Like allowing me to celebrate gradution with him and understanding the importance of that milestone. Lots of other little things he does that may not mean a lot to others but touch me inside.

So I guess we all have to look at how our T's treat us and behave with us to decide if the words "I care" are hollow or really have weight and meaning to them. Right now I believe that my T cares about me, really cares about me as a special and unique individual and not just as a patient. He often tells me that if therapy is done right and you have a long-term relationship with someone how could you NOT care about them? How could you not attach on both sides and feel love? He believes that is normal and healthy. I have not seen any evidence that he is BS'ing me about any of this.

Just my 2 cents

TN

Care is a big bad word for me too. And a big bad concept. My T told me 8 months ago she cared for me and it kicked off months of problems for me. Anger at her, anger at the care - oh boy we had to talk a lot about it. We have a list of Banned therapy words and CARE is on it. She isn't allowed to say it. But I am slowly making myself hear the word and opening up my soul to it.

It is very hard for us who have been hurt by previous T's and have trust issues - to then believe that a subsequent T can care for us. I know I have given my wonderful T a VERY hard time about it. She has shown time and time again that she cares.

After reading TN's post, it made me think that one of the different things where she shows she cares is that in therapy she isn't scared to try something new. She is really flexible and open and tries things to help me and her feel comfortable together. We go for walks, we grab a coffee, she sits next to me and not opposite me in the room, we go to a local garden and the last time we were both lying on the grass and doing therapy. on the anniversary of my friend's death we drove to the cemetery and did our therapy by the grave - really different stuff.

I think she would have to have a level of care to do all these things. And yes I have said horrible things to her in that she only cares because I pay her to care, I pay for x minutes per week etc etc. When a T truly cares, these things must hurt a bit.

My T says that yes I pay her, but that doesn't pay her for the time she thinks of me out of hours, or the flexible things we do together or the out of cares she provides to me, or the emails, calls and texts. She says she chooses to do all these things.

I think if you are with a T who is truly the right T for you - then you will eventually feel the care.

Somedays

((susyz)) i'm so sorry your T abandoned you and i so hear what you say about the homeless child. that's kinda my view on it too.

((TN)) you made me go all soft ...
but then i went all hard again, sorry

((SD)) yes i think its easier like TN said as well, to look at the behaviours that seem to say they care and to at least try to let those sink in. maybe they sink in easier than words, maybe they sink in before the 'defences' have time to realise what is happening.
i'm glad you can feel her care in those things she does.

great insight everyone! this could be a good topic for a book (a never ending one that goes around in circles )

puppet

I hope it’s okay to post this here – if not, feel free to tell me.

Let me say that I’m pleased most of you have Ts who show how they feel about you and prove it with their actions and I hope that in time those of you who have difficulty accepting ‘care’ now will become open to it and blossom.

I’ve wanted to post on this thread but putting something in writing makes it real and I’m not sure I want to face it squarely but I need to put it out there! I see my T usually every 2 weeks and recently had a 5 week break while she was overseas. In that first session back my attachment issues came up in discussion and she made it very clear that she would never be able to give me what I missed in my 63 years of life and also that we could never be friends! The adult me understands this to a certain degree but the inner kid cringed and was hurt badly, especially when she reinforced the no contact outside of session boundary!! My reality here is she’s in a caring profession but it stays in the room and I truly feel it’s a professional care only – not personal for me, the individual!! My feelings since that session have been ‘flat’ – I have dysthymia – but strangely haven’t been more or less depressed – it’s a little like something died in me in that session! Now it feels that I’ll go to the grave without ever feeling ‘cared’ for.

There have been some red flags before, like taking phone calls, not being on time to start but always finishing on time for the next patient, spending too much time on payment options – anyhow that’s another story.

Take care people.

((( morgs ))) this is the perfect place to post your experience. i'll be 51 in a week, and my T has said before how he thinks i will always have that void that perhaps you're talking about when you talk about what you missed in your 63 years of life. he hasn't said anything about us not being able to be friends, but he's alluded to it. i can understand that you know rationally that it can never be, but to actually HEAR it said would be very hurtful! and those other things you mentioned, the taking calls and not being on time, etc. that is all part of the feeling/not feeling cared for. i would think all of those things would be good fodder to talk about to T about, as hard as it may be. aww, Morgs. i'm a dysthymia sufferer as well, and i can relate to you feeling as though something died in you during that session. an empty, hollow feeling of something that will never be filled up. hugs to you .

Thank you for your response (((CD))) 'though I'm sorry you suffer with dysthymia also and know all too well how it affects everything!!

It wasn’t until starting therapy that I acknowledged the aching emptiness and the reasons for it – so hearing those words just reinforced unworthiness and all that crap! As said, I didn’t go deeper into depression – it’s almost like an internal tossing up of the hands and resignation that nothing will ever change! Don’t know if it will be discussed or if we will continue – my confidence in her is a little trampled!!

Again, thank you for understanding CD and an early Happy Birthday to you!

Take care. Morgs

Morgs, no wonder you feel like something died inside, what she said was really hurtful. It would have devastated me to hear that. She was a bit too blunt and could have expressed herself a lot better.

If you have the courage, you should bring it up, but I could understand if you didn't.

IT would have been a really hard thing to have to hear.

MY T said something tough to me today - in a totally caring manner - and I didn't want to hear it and didn't like hearing it and I dissociated after it as I couldn't face it. This was something she said from a place of caring - so what your T said would have really hurt me. Sorry, I know that what I said doesn't help - but I guess I am saying that I would be really hurt and if those are the feelings you are having - I would react the same way.

Somedays.

((Somedays)) thank you - it helps a lot when people understand! As an Aussie and someone who has many BPD traits - I'm just so pleased to know there are psychologists, like yours, here in Oz who will actually step outside the 'box' and meet the client when the client's needs are 'not' unreasonable! We are quite behind in approaches to therapy here! Good on you both for sorting out your issues - your healing will continue with this lady I'm sure !

Best, Morgs

Morgs,

I totally get the flat feeling, I am searching for that "something missing", maybe I am on track to finding out now that my mother has passed away and I just turned 44.

I wonder if they really care too, and this thread has really resonated with me.

It seems that lately for me, I can't say enough bad things about my own T, so I probably am not in the best frame of mind to elaborate much on this, but I do want to acknowledge Puppet for starting it, and everyone else that has responded.

Morgs, I can definately identify with you; the dysthymia, and that flat feeling, and at age 62, I think we share some common feelings in this.

What I do know is that therapists are experts in therapeutic relationships, obiviously some are better at them than others. I think there is a reason why they decided to go into a caring profession, so, in their own way, they do care.


Hugs to all.

Blu

[QUOTE] so, in their own way, they do care. /QUOTE] I guess you're right Blu but it's the 'impersonal' care that cuts!!! I'm sorry you know all too well about dysthymia and all that goes with it - it's so debilitating!

Be gentle with yourself.
s to you and all on this thread!

I just wanted to add that I'm a therapist-in-training and I do really care about my clients. My heart aches for the things that some of them have been through and I genuinely like and care for them. Sometimes I get emotional after I leave a session, knowing how much pain my client is in. And for me, this has nothing to do with getting paid to care, as I'm an intern and am doing this for free! It's tough work, but also so rewarding...

I also know how it feels to be in the other chair and wonder about my own therapist and if she cares about/for me. She's never said she cares about me or likes me, but her actions are caring. Still, I'm someone who needs words (!) and often doubt her true caring and feelings about me (even though she gives me no reason to...sigh). So I understand the desire for your therapist to actually care about you, and not just because he/she is getting paid to. Even though I'm on the other side five days a week and know how I feel toward my clients, I still get caught up in how my therapist feels about me. It can really mess with your mind and I can relate.

hi erica,
and thank you for writing - this kinda blows my mind though... something i'm really struggling to believe and wondering if its best to leave it for now.
i will have to come back to this. i (and i'm sure everybody else too) really appreciate you writing this.

puppet

((CD)) ((morgs)) ((somedays)) ((scars)) ((blu))
i dont have anything good to add, but i'm sorry you struggle with this too...

puppet

well I have been following this thread for a short while now and think I am ready to add my own theory on the matter. [at risk off annoying a feww folk...]
first off let me state the following. I have gone back to my counsellor 4 months ago after a 2 year absence. I stopped seeing her oddly because I cancelled our last session late in the year just before Christmass due to the very poor weather here. I just did not like the idea off her been on the road to her clinic to see me. I know for one that her appointment book is rather empty hence why I know she would have to go to work on the day to see me alone.
Anyway I recall very well that I sent a text message to her on Monday morning asking to postpone till the new year. I did not hear back untill Tues evening when by chance I was at the airport picking up my Brother. That must have been nearly 4 Pm. Our session was booked for Wednesday at 11am. I use text messages due to the fact I use two hearing aids and as result do not use the phones. Any how I was stunned she left it go till so late. I can not recall if I sent a second message or not. Any how my theory is this.
Therapists, counscillors tend to I now think, not want their clents to become over dependent on them nor do they want to give the wrong impressions in case we end up thinking they may love us like mad so in other words before I drone on too much, I think its all about us not becoming to attached to our T's they are over warey off the bounderys and rules and so on [overly so sometimes]. The result is they offten appear to be uncaring or disinterested in us even though at some times they may well be fighting their own emmotions for us. They simply must be the ones to keep control off the sessions and any feelings that may develope.
To finish off ... [boy this must be the longist post I ever managed anywhere] I also think its the older T's and shrinks that are most devorced from their feelings for clients as experance thought them to be so. The new ones and those in the business for a few short years are likely to be the ones who struggle most with clients.
Just my two pennys worth thats all.
ND
PS I have a lot off time for my counscellor but have no time at all for my shrinks [and the shrinks now it]

Once I actually gave my T a list of 12 reasons she couldn't possibly genuinely care about me. I did it not because I thought she didn't care and wanted her to, but because the idea of her caring frankly scared me! I couldn't deal with the concept. Now, a few months later, I have accepted that she does care, probably quite a bit.

However, on the whole when I reflect on the issue of caring in therapy, I think commitment is more important than caring. Caring, to me, is kind of a feeling that can come or go, but commitment means your T is in your corner for the long haul, even when they might be exhausted at the moment or annoyed at you. People who "care" often express their caring in misguided ways, but a committed therapist knows that giving you the right kind of treatment and holding the right boundaries is more important than warm fuzzy feelings. Caring could be wanting to give you a hug, and commitment could be not giving you the same hug because it would be too much and destabilize you.

I have lots of people in my life who care about me, and only one or two of them are as committed to me as my T is. For example, my aunt who loves me more than most people in the world cares about me a ton, and yet she rarely ever returns my phone calls. My T always returns my calls within 24 hours. Some of my best friends who are generally loyal have flaked out on dates with me at times, something which my T has never done with appointments. My brother, with whom I have a very strong bond, would probably not go so far as to read a book just because I told him I related to it. And yet my T has done this for me. She can't do for me some things that friends or family members can do, and yet within the bounds of our relationship she is 100% committed. That is what really matters to me. Not the fact that she cares. Even though she does.

That's my ten cents

BLT - I remember that list of 12 reasons and I threw them all at my T!!! Thanks for that.


Yes, you made me think hard. Commitment.I think that is it. My T always says she is committed to me, committed to our relationship and committed to helping me for as long as it takes. If it is years, she will be there as she isn't going anywhere. We will only end therapy when I have reached my therapy goals and i choose when that is.

She says these same words at least once or twice a week.

My T has also been really good in the past 2 months with consistency - maybe that is another one Care Commitment Consistency. By showing that she is going to follow through with things she promised she is being consistent and showing she cares.

SD

Well (((All))) my T and I had a really open, honest, tearful, for me session. I've never been so emotionally honest with her before and it's because of all of you who have posted on this thread and the insights you provided!!

I also have to say I was wrong - my T does care - we really dealt with this today and I truly felt 'held'. Still can't say what else I need but she's there for me with, as SomeDays said with "Care (practically evidenced) Commitment Consistency"

Big s to you all.

Holy Crap Morgs, this is freaking fantastic.

You have just given me something positive that I needed right now. Thank you.

Care and Commitment and Consistency

They are powerful words, powerful feelings. So glad you felt held Morgs. It is magic when it happens (I hear).

Awesome, Awesome.

Somedays

Ha ha!! thank you ((SomeDays)) you have felt held - I've read your posts - it just gets lost at times!! we might need to remind each other when we each forget and it goes to hell in a handbasket!!! Deal?
s back at you!

Yeah Morgs - you are right, I have been "held" - it is just that I am unable to register a positive feeling / emotion for anything . Therein lies my problem and why I am in therapy. I want to be able to feel emotions. T and I are manually doing this. I can give 50 examples where my T does this - every session even, but I feel like a witness to these things happening to me, rather than actually feeling the good feelings - does that make sense? I actually felt more when I read your account!!!! than when my T does great things with me.

Even that is showing improvement in me - and I gladly take that!

We are a complex lot!
SD

((SD)) understood and I so understand! are we related?