Hi Stoppers,
Am I correct in guessing you're not a big fan of feelings in general? That there too messy and don't make a lot of sense but the damn things have gotten so intrusive that you've been driven to therapy because that's how you fix them?

What you want, a blueprint, a definitive list of exactly what should happen and what steps to take, would work if human beings were a car, or a computer program. In those cases, there are precise steps to take to fix things, but human beings are much more complex and not nearly as as straightforward. Add in the twist that no two people's healing journey will be quite the same and it's no wonder you're frustrated. Therapy is more art than science. The research can illuminate new directions to go in, but often the actual methods are created by trying things and seeing what works. There's a reason most therapists become more effective the longer they're working, because each patient teaches them and helps them to grow.

One of the things that make us human and gives meaning to our life is our feelings,but learning how to recognize our feelings,understand what they are telling us, and letting them flow through us without being overpowered by them is a very complex set of skillsand there's only one way a human being learns them, by being in right brain to right brain contact with a human being who has those skills. It's a bit of a mystery but the thing that makes most people feel alive and worthwhile is to be able to express their feelings and have them heard and understood.

If we did not receive the time and attention we should have when developing, or our caretaker never learned these skills themselves, then we often become arrested developmentally, unable to tolerate the intensity of our feelings, sometimes unable to even identify them. When this happens, we can decide they're more trouble than they're worth. But in order to have the "good" feelings, love, joy, wonder, we have to be open to sadness, pain and grief. I know in my case, I fled from my feelings, and retreated into my left brain where things were logical, reasonable and felt under control. I protected myself by staying away from all that mess.

So when I started therapy, I wanted exactly what you want. I was like ok, explain to me how this works, and as soon as I understand it I can fix this and get on with my life. But the problem is, and it's a HUGE problem, is that the solution is not a cognitive understanding (which can feel like where our strength and control lies) but having to experience our feelings in the moment, connected to another person where we implicitly learn what we need to know. This is facilitated by sitting and telling a total stranger about ourselves. It's not about knowing, it's about doing. If not, to quote my T, a patient could walk through the door, you could identify their area of struggle, hand them a book and say have a nice life. The best explanation I have ever read about this is The General Theory of Love which explains attachment theory and how it applies to human experience and therapy. (This is one among many approaches to therapy, I'm a big proponet, because it worked so well for me, which doesn't make it right for everyone).

It may be that some of your frustration is unconscious, or unacknowledged fear of the messiness that healing could turn out to be. Letting go of the control (or illusion thereof) which our intellectual abilities provide can be very hard, and often terrifying. In the end I thought it was more than worth it, but it's a choice everyone has to make for themselves.

Hope some of this helps.

AG

quote:

many of the topics are about issues with therapy itself, rather than issues that led folks to therapy to begin with. I wonder if it's because the latter is too personal?

Hi Sea-green,
I think DF did a pretty good job of responding to this but I also wanted to add a few things. For some people, the relationship with the therapist IS the therapy. Our relationships, especially with our caretakers, have a huge influence on how we develop and what we come to understand about relationships. All of our interactions, starting even before we can form conscious biographical memories and before our frontal cortex comes on line, are laid down in our implicit memory in our limbic system and shape our unconscious understanding and expectations of what a relationship should look like. We accumulate those experiences into a "template" for relationships. So, though often we are not conscious of it, the way we interact with other people is affected and colored by these experiences. When those experiences were good ones with "good enough" parents, we form a healthy understanding of our own worth and what a healthy relationship looks like, so we tend to function well. If what we learned wasn't so good, we often took in things that aren't true, but very much feel like they are to us. Such as "I don't matter" and "if someone really knows me they'll leave" or "I'm not supposed to have needs, my needs are overwhelming." Many of those beliefs grew out of our issues, in my case CSA by my father and a pretty checked out mom. Which are things I certainly discussed in therapy.

But the way I learned to see the patterns in what I was doing unconsciously was to be really open with my therapist and discuss our relationship. Because it was in our relationship that my unconscious beliefs and responses were happening. It provided a "lab" where I could observe what I did because a therapist is unique in that they are focused only on your needs so it's ok and safe to talk about how you feel about them, and what beliefs you are acting on and how accurate are they? So the relationship for me was often the starting point and it would be in examining my reactions to my therapist that would lead back to the unconscious beliefs that would lead back to the events that formed those beliefs. So its not that people are trying to avoid dealing with their issues, it's that they're starting with just how those issues are affecting them here and now, in the midst of a real relationship. Because what comes out in therapy is usually a microsm of what we do in all our relationships. And it's where we can learn better ways of doing things.

AG

quote:

But the way I learned to see the patterns in what I was doing unconsciously was to be really open with my therapist and discuss our relationship. Because it was in our relationship that my unconscious beliefs and responses were happening. It provided a "lab" where I could observe what I did because a therapist is unique in that they are focused only on your needs so it's ok and safe to talk about how you feel about them, and what beliefs you are acting on and how accurate are they?

Thanks for this, AG...it made me feel a little less crazy. I remember when I first found this site, it was just what I was looking for, because while there are lots of place to discuss problems that bring one into therapy, there aren't too many places to discuss the agonizing process of therapy itself with people who really get it and understand what that crucial, very primal relationship is doing (or undoing) in us.

Good questions, stoppers and sea-green.

BB

quote:

Thanks for this, AG...it made me feel a little less crazy.

Beebs, this is what SHOULD really scare you, a crazy person is making you feel less crazy.

((((Beebs))))

Seagreen - I become particularly wary when I read about therapy by therapists (I particularly dislike reading Ryan Howe and Irving Yalom because I find them incredibly pompous and condenscending) I cannot understand why anyone would continue to see and pay these as**** for any reason. But it does seem as though many people do not have my reaction to therapy in general and to those two authors specifically and find this (and those guys)useful.

AG - I did decide to try therapy again as a last ditch desparate measure. I do find feelings to be a nuisance and if a right brainectomy was possible - it might be the only elective surgery I would ever consider. I appreciate your response. I still believe if they are not just going to come out and say "therapy is magic" and instead call it a "process" then there has to be some order - the word process implies some organization. These people went to school and got some sort of degree in something to tell them how to do this. I am not denying the help anyone else has found by doing therapy - I am glad it helps others. I just wish I could figure out how to make it help me. I have read a General Theory of Love but again, how to use it to not feel crazy escaped me.

I wish I had a better answer for you Stoppers. The frustration is just coming off you in waves. I found it especially interesting that you mentioned Irving Yalom and Ryan Howe, but of whom I've read and frequently enjoyed. (Although Ryan can occasionally raise my hackles, but when I've commented on his blog, he has very easily engaged and discussed my objections which I appreciate).

If I'm adding to that list of people who sound condescending and pompous, forgive me, it's really not my intention.

There are two blogs I think you might like, the first one especially. They might help.

F*ck feelings This is a twice weekly column by a Harvard Psychologist who really isn't all that big on feelings (but in a good way I think) and who is very clear that he doesn't think that therapy is a good idea for everyone. I am wondering if you might find something to connect with here.

Monkeytraps This is a blog by a long practicing therapist who has made control his focus of attention. I haven't been reading long, and am still catching up with everything there, but what I have read has rung really true for me. It also might provide some insight.

Sorry for the stuckness, not a fun place to be.

AG

PS I thought "right brainectomy" was pretty funny.

AG - I do not mean to be directing my frustration at you or this forum or anyone else on it. Sorry if it came off like that. I do not find you to be pompous or condescending. I also fully recognize that many find Howe and Yalom useful and would not try to say it is wrong for anyone else to do so.

quote:

AG - I do not mean to be directing my frustration at you or this forum or anyone else on it.

Stoppers,
I didn't feel that way at all, just wanted to make it clear that I didn't want to add to the problem. That's what feels so bad not being able to have an answer for you. You are obviously working really hard trying to understand what is going on. Thanks for the reassurance though, I appreciate you going to the effort.

AG

DF - sorry, somehow my response to you was cut off and I just now realized it. Thanks for your input. I don't suppose your T gave you the list from the seminar, did she?

quote:

Originally posted by stoppers:
...I do find feelings to be a nuisance and if a right brainectomy was possible - it might be the only elective surgery I would ever consider. ...I still believe if they are not just going to come out and say "therapy is magic" and instead call it a "process" then there has to be some order - the word process implies some organization. These people went to school and got some sort of degree in something to tell them how to do this.

I would be tempted to tattoo the entirety of this sentiment on my forehead if it didn't require more real estate than is presently available.

I am 10 weeks into therapy for PTSD/complex trauma and I am struggling mightily with the point to it all. So, just wanted to come out of lurker status to express vexed solidarity.

(And, a good time to note the many brilliant and insightful messages on this forum, wish I could properly express my gratitude for the time, effort, and monumental selflessness the members put forth. There were a few comments weeks ago about lurkers; as one, I can say I'm a friend not foe. Just terribly confused and overwhelmed but so thankful for the willingness of others to share wholeheartedly.)

AG - This is one of the many things that confuses me (not trying to be obdurate, but as an example)

quote:

It's not about knowing, it's about doing.

This would be great but I don't know what I am supposed to do. I like the concept of actually doing something.

DF - thanks. My list would be like:
1. In order to not feel crazy one must process by doing X (or even, peple have done processing by doing X or Y or Z or X, Y, AND Z, etc )
2. After doing X, the next step is Y(or one could try Y or A or B etc).

Sometimes I am reminded of the joke about how to carve a ship out of a block of wood - just cut away everything that does not look like a ship.

And finally I am left with a voice yelling in my head - "just quit being crazy you F'ing whiner, your life is not that bad"

stopppers... I cannot speak directly for AG but think AG may have meant that it's in the experiencing of the relationship and your emotions that you come to understand yourself and how you relate to others. Therapy is not as straightforward as just being handed an instruction manual and if you follow it the result will be perfect mental health. We can do some reading to understand certain things but the intellectual "knowing" *how a relationship works or *why you behave a certain why or *have a certain reaction to something... they are all to be experienced, then examined and discussed while they are happening (while you are doing it) so that you can find understanding and healing.

Aside from this ... there is something very unexplainable and powerful in having someone you trust and feel safe with hear your trauma, to be witness to your pain and grief. Something many of us had to do alone as children. For some of us, those who should have been there to offer emotional regulation, support and caring to us where the very same people who abused and traumatized us. And so we had to find some way to cope alone. And when we are children that was not easy and we used ways to cope that today as adults are not needed and perhaps very harmful.

I hope this somehow helps you. I struggle to answer your questions, stoppers, because there is a certain mystery to the healing process.

TN

TN - thanks. Although I am a little bummed - I got excited about the idea there was something I could actually do.

UV - thanks - interesting site.

Couldn’t help myself posting here, Stoppers your confusion and frustration with what therapy is supposed to be all about resonates so much with me and had me trying to figure out more clearly what I’ve come to understand about how therapy is meant to work.

I’ve been in and out of therapy throughout my (long!) life and done so much reading about it that I’m now in a position to be pretty clear about what it all involves. Caveat: I’m really clear about it, for ME personally, so the stuff I’m talking about here is my own conclusions and not necessarily what other people would agree with. So here’s what I’ve come up with.

Firstly, while it seems true that therapy generally (apart from the CBT/behavioural approaches) doesn’t seem to have any defined structure or concrete steps to it, that’s a fallacy. It stems from the tendency of therapists to not bother explaining to new clients how therapy works, what the client can do, and what the therapist’s role is (I say ‘not bother’ but in fact this is something they seem to learn in Psych 101, I take big issue with it, as witnessed by the comment your T made to you ‘trust the process’ grrrrrr begs the question wft IS the process then?)

I’ve decided that what that really means is that the course of therapy isn’t linear, you don’t get step one leading to step two and so on in a clear sequence, you get a lot of going round the houses, circularity, repetition even regression (in the sense of feeling like you’re back to minus step 100) all of which is normal and expected – it’s in keeping on going despite what seems like a lunatic exercise in chaos and confusion that constitutes the ‘process’, because (ideally) all that seems pointless and repetitious and painful actually is the ‘work’ and does ultimately lead to change.

There is a definite structure and a definite methodology. But each different therapeutic modality has its own defined structure and methodology and it really really really is worth the time reading up about how the different approaches work – despite the fact that research seems to suggest that it’s the relationship itself which is the most healing factor in therapy, nevertheless I have found that for me it’s firstly the approach itself which determines whether therapy is likely to work for me, and only secondarily the ‘fit’ with the therapist (though this latter is HUGELY important – I should know, I’m onto T number 33 now and it’s ONLY now that I feel I’ve found someone who might just be the right ‘fit’.)

I think the prime goal of ALL therapy is to enable the client to come to understand their own self: motives, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, reasons for beliefs, reasons for behaviour, reasons for fears and feelings etc etc both to gain a sense of personal control and empowerment (knowledge is power) AND thereby becoming freer to effect change. (The apparent ‘magical’ part of it is that a lot of change just happens in the course of uncovering, talking about and owning the hidden aspects of ourselves, (in the presence of a safe accepting non-judgemental empathic other) without our being consciously aware of such change happening.)

Ok that’s the theory. So what do you actually DO? You talk, as openly and honestly as you can, about how you feel, what you think, what you want, what matters to you – and specifically, what’s going on in you in each moment of the session. Even more specifically, how you feel about how the therapist responds to you. Because it’s what’s going on in the moment that is the mother lode of potential understanding and insight and change.

So ok that all seems a bit airy fairy too, I know I could have gone into therapy and talked and talked and talked for a hundred years and nothing would have changed, what helped me was recognizing HOW talking about what was going on in me in the moment, HOW talking about my problems, my past, my feelings and hidden thoughts, was going to help me. Here’s where what I’m saying obviously relates personally to ME – for me, it’s being listened to, heard, sympathetically understood and ACCEPTED for everything I am in the moment, for everything I reveal about the ‘real’ (‘bad’) me that’s the magical healing thing. That the more I’m able to expose the real me in session, and the more that real me is seen, accepted and validated as ok, the more I’m able to accept myself as ok (oh I’d better say that this is potential, I’m only just starting getting this sort of response from my (new) T, but I’ve known for a long time that this is what I’ve been looking for from therapy.) Also I’ve always been quite clear about my goal in therapy, which is to like myself, to experience myself as ok.

This is why the relationship itself is so important. Before I learnt that actually a big part of therapy is being able to confront or express to the therapist how I was feeling ABOUT THERAPY and the THERAPIST herself, I spent a lot of time screwing myself up by believing that I was supposed to be talking about my problems, my issues, trying to find solutions and expecting the therapist to help me come up with solutions, and all the time I wasn’t bringing into sessions the very thing that actually showed the problems more clearly than any amount of talking about them – that is, how I felt in the moment, particularly vis a vis how the therapist responded to me. All it would have taken was for the T to say, ok LL, one of the things that would be really helpful here is if you could tell me how you feel about ME, if you could keep sharing how you feel about what’s going on between us... It took me years to work out just how important that was, and it’s only reading this forum that gave me that insight. Grrrr to therapists who don’t give clients at least SOME idea of how therapy works.

Big caveat here though: not every therapist is happy taking a client’s feelings towards them (whether positive and especially negative). I’ve had therapists point blank refuse to accept my expressing angry feelings at them, I’ve had other therapists refuse point blank to hear perceived criticisms about the way they worked with me. And I've had LOTS of therapists not have a clue about what I was telling them.

As for the therapist’s role, quite simply, it is to be a non-judgemental, non-defensive, totally accepting and actively listening empathic person, there to reflect you supportively and help you work out for yourself how you feel, what matters to you, how to deal with your issues, what you want etc. Their role isn’t to tell you what to do, nor to direct the therapy according to any agenda except yours, nor even to ask questions in many cases. Though again this varies from modality to modality, some therapists seem to favour a ‘challenging’ or confrontational approach (Gestalt springs to mind) others will happily ask leading questions and even use themselves in a more openly relational way (ie sharing how THEY feel about you and things going on in the therapy).

Now this is all fine if you’re in the business of trying to get more self awareness and understanding of your motives and reasons for why you do and think and feel the things you do, it’s not so fine if you’ve got specific unbearable issues (like sui thoughts or self harm or overwhelming generalized anxiety) which need addressing and resolving as a matter of urgency. For that (usually called ‘symptomatic relief’) a much more directive and interventionist therapy is probably a better bet (the CBT/behavioural approaches which focus on teaching skills and ways of coping with such things.) The more psychodynamic/humanist therapies take the opposite approach and won’t usually be directive at all, most times don’t even ask questions but work on the premise that the client always leads, that you direct your sessions, you decide what to talk about, you dictate (consciously or unconsciously) the content of each session and what to focus on. So unless you already have some idea of what you need from the therapist in terms of helping with presenting issues, it really may be that you are not ready at this point for a straight psychodynamic or psychoanalytic approach but would be better helped with a more concretely structured programme of teaching skills and coping methods.

Phew that’s a lot of words to say not very much. It’s a lot harder to explain what I think therapy is all about than it seems, without writing reams and reams of stuff. So I’ll stop here and hope that maybe some of it is useful to you, and also hope very much that you can find a way out of this awful impasse you’re in.

Best wishes to you Stoppers

LL

p.s. I see I haven’t actually answered your questions lol. Like, how do you know where you are in the ‘process’ and how can you tell whether it’s working or not… I think an awful lot of faith is required with this therapy business, both in your own perceptions and in the global theory of what therapy is all about. Not a great answer, sorry.

LL - thank you for your input. I will have to reflect more upon it, but I really do appreciate your help.

For clarification - I find it easier to accept there is no manual on how to exactly fix myself (auto mechanic idea). What frustrates me more at this point is the lack of clarity, structure, manual, on therapy itself. That there is no way of knowing how therapy is proceeding, if it is progressing, if there is the alliance thingy going on, etc. The books seem to always blame the client for regressing, transferring and resisting, for therapy not working, except in cases of blatant professional misconduct. Then it seems the next advice from "professionals" is to trust your feelings about the alliance (whatever that is). If trusting feelings worked that well for me, why would I be going to therapy in the first place?