and it is beyond being liked. i feel there can't be disagreement without disconnection.

that is why i don't know who i am.

i leave my identity 'fluid' so that i can 'be' who the other (my attachment figure) needs me to be so that i do not risk abandonment.

that leaves me abandoning MYSELF, and truth, and just living in a mirage of what i FEEL will keep the connection.

HAVE I ACTUALLY BUMPED INTO A SELF DISCOVERY?????????????????????

ME???? i can't believe it, paydirt!!

actual insight??

now, to see if bringing these two lies up to t ends the relationship???

man, i don't miss a beat, when it comes to perceiving little nuances that spell trouble. learned that early on ... and, i keep these alerts diminished so as not to get abandoned, or to feel that my caretaker is unsafe, and THAT creates this san andreas faultline of strain and tension and walking on quicksand, to keep the mirage alive.

whew,

i gotta process this, but, it seems to make sense.

i push and push and push ... and i get answers i don't really want to hear, i lie....three times now, when asked if it would make a difference if our religious beliefs weren't the same, i said, that 'no, i could work with that', but, can i??

i want more spiritual strengthening.

i prayed for it today, and this is the appointment that followed. is Jesus speaking to me here??

am i at a point of ME abandoning THEM???

i HATE to be in control, i like things to be other people's fault, not mine.

passive aggressive is my middle name.

innocent bystander, that's me.

my SISTER was the mean one, me? just wrong place at wrong time.

whew.

have i discovered something here??

jill

((private chat with God))...i am not a loon...

oh how i wish someone would answer me.

God, are you talking to me?? do i need to quit therapy because i am relying on man, and you want me to rely on YOU.

can i make it without therapy??

the man that was a believer didn't have anything else for me. t1, no tools. cbt. a listening ear.

what are you telling me, Lord??

jill

I LIE TO PROTECT THE RELATIONSHIP FROM ENDING.

quote:

and it is beyond being liked. i feel there can't be disagreement without disconnection.

that is why i don't know who i am.

jill, there is tremendous insight here. I am on the same page...I struggle with this too, greatly...it's huge for me. I speak my mind...often too freely, I suspect...and then I suffer all kind of unimaginable agonies about it, because I am certain, beyond certain, that I am hated and disliked...often not the case at all...but in the cases where it is true, it is agony. You must fear this, as I do...with your therapist more than any other person! It is truly frightening, jill, there is nothing unusual or bad, about that.
Or, I "lie" to protect the relationship...yeah, I've done that alot in the past...and many, most people do, this jill...but just are not so aware of it, and also not maybe quite so bothered having a sensitive conscience about it..I'm getting better since T at being more authentic...and you will too! Go easy on yourself girl! You are human...and by virtue of being human and not divine, you have the unassailable priveledge and comfort of being.....*imperfect* ...but good! In fact, really really good, and getting better all the time...!
I'm not sure, the nature of these lies you are so very worried about...do not despair! God understands the reasons why we do the things we do, a million times more than we ever will be able to...and he is ever teaching and guiding us, through our therapist, friends this forum, others around us...if we are open to the positive, which you clearly are! towards peace, and to have mercy on ourselves as He does...mercy, meaning, peace relief, you *are* ok.
I understnad your concern...a therapist who is on the same page and has the same philosophy as yourself is very beneficial...but I do beleive that God works through all things, if we can sift through and find the gold and the truth just running through *everything.* Deos this make sense?

I am sorry you are hurting, and scared about confromting your T...yes that is very scary and can leave one with a bad taste in the mouth...but, I have learned that, the more and more I do that, gradually the bitter taste does go away more quickly, and I get a bit braver each time! So, I want to congratulate you...on what seems like it was most likely a very productive session...although, it is true, you are not feeling so well. But it seems like you have learned so much!

You're a sweetie jill...don't forget it. (This is one of your cyber-mothers talking )

BB

I am wondering about your husband comment...yes, I have the same...why isn't that enough? We have to learn to listen carefully to eachother...to treasure each moment together...I think it has something to do with that. Much easier said than done, with so many pitfalls and responsibilities! But we keep trying, right?

Hi Jill,

I am sorry you are finding this so hard...the therapy relationship certainly is a very strange one and I am sorry it is causing you such conflict.

You ask:

quote:

do you confront (nicely) a t on a problem?? last time i did, with t3, it WAS a trainwreck. and old dr. sleepy, well, you know. is THIS where i learn that an imperfect t can still be useful?

I am really sorry that with T3 when you did this it was a 'trainwreck'. Earlier on you say,

quote:

i am afraid to reveal my lies, but feel i need to and then fear it will dig matters deeper.

This sounds really important to you Jill....I'm sorry Jill, I realise I really don't know much about you and your realtionship with your T but it sounds to me like this is an area that you would like to explore to gain some growth and a good T should stick alongside you through this and I really hope that you have a good T who can help you through this struggle. I also think you have a lot of self awareness which is great.

Sending you good thoughts
Butterfly

Oh and I often used to feel like I had screwed up...but it was my therapy after all ...so maybe it is part of the process...

(((((Jill)))))

Butterfly

I think I lie to keep the relationship with people intact too. You hit it right on - they disconnect you if you don't. I lie so much when people are unhappy with me, most of the time I don't even realize I'm doing it.

Kind of funny how it makes sense now ... my husband will be angry with me enough about something that he'll threaten to leave (or pretend like he's leaving) and it throws me into such a panic. When he calms down a little, he will tell me that if I would just start doing X then we wouldn't have a problem, and here's me "I'll do X!!!" and he'll snap at me that I say that EVERY TIME but that I still fail. Now I get it: I'm lying when I say I'll do X.

I have a hard time getting angry with my T. He gave me a form with blanks to fill in to help me explain my emotions. I filled out one last week to tell him it sucks when we have to say goodbye at the end of session. Okay, I tell you about that because even writing it out that I'm mad at him makes me feel awful and worried that he will disconnect. And before I hand it to him, I said "You're gonna be mad at me." After he read it, he told me that he doesn't hate me and he actually enjoys getting those forms from me because he just learns from it rather than taking anything personally. He thinks it's interesting and nothing to do with me. (I don't believe him either, LOL.)

I love everything BB wrote to you. I will just add that you're just going to your T for therapy, so why would it matter if your beliefs aren't the same. My T is a Christian and he does a couple things that raise my eyebrows but I let it pass because I think God will protect me and still love me no matter what. For some reason, God is one person I don't have to worry about losing ... we can't ever be "plucked out" of his hand.

Anyway, as you can already see, you're not alone in thinking you screwed up. Last week I left my session thinking I did my T's job for him, because I wanted him to reassure me on his own but I kept asking him "Can you do this, can you do that" to try to squelch the panic I was feeling. I'm annoyed more than anything because it felt like he was getting impatient with me. I have an appointment tomorrow and I've been fantasizing about not going. (I know he won't panic or worry if I don't show up but he does in my fantasy.)

I'm sorry I wasn't up late enough to answer you yesterday but I hope you're doing better today.

~D.

quote:

I LIE TO PROTECT THE RELATIONSHIP FROM ENDING.

Hi Jill,
Sorry I didn't respond sooner but life has continued to be insane between work hours and illness.

OF COURSE YOU LIE TO PROTECT THE RELATIONSHIP FROM ENDING. But it's often NOT a conscious choice. When we were little, trying to get our needs met, or expressing our thoughts or emotions often got us in trouble and at the extreme end, hurt. We had to conform to what the people around us wanted us to be in order to try to survive. Ideally, we should be raised in an atmosphere where our feelings are welcomed, and understood, where we are accepted for exactly who we are. But we learned on a very deep level, at a time where we could take it and truly make it an intrinsic part of us, that relationships required squelching our own feelings and not being direct or open about our needs. But here's the thing, our relationship with our caretaker's, which lays down our template for all relationships, is quite literally a matter of life and death. If we cannot stay near them and receive care from them, we die. Our needs, at least the basic ones of food and shelter, have to be met, or we die. Can you imagine any child, any child at all, not willing to lie in that situation? And it's not a malicious lie that is consciously meant to deceive or hurt. It was desparately trying to be whatever you needed to be to attempt to be cared for and not get punished.

So we grow up and it keeps happening because that's how we learned to do it. Getting through these maladaptive behaviors is a bit of a tightrope walk. On one hand, we need to much more compassionate with ourselves, understanding where this behavior came from, why it makes sense that we act that way and even understanding that much of the behavior was utterly necessary to our survival. Yea, us! But now that we are no longer in that danger, this behavior is no longer needed and is often detrimental. Which is where we need to push ourselves to 1)become conscious that we are doing it 2) face the fear and push through to a new way of behaving.

Congratulations Jill, you have done the first and hardest step, which is to become conscious that you are doing it. I know I went through this, I am a much more honest person now than I used to be. But it took me a long time and a lot of work to become conscious of how duplicitous I could be, automatically, without really thinking about it. I know this feels very difficult, scary and painful to face, but the truth is you're making progress.

quote:

God, are you talking to me?? do i need to quit therapy because i am relying on man, and you want me to rely on YOU.

Jill I really wanted to address this. From things you have posted (and your signature line ) I believe we share similar beliefs about God, and this was something I struggled with for a VERY long time. Going to therapy does not mean you are NOT relying on God. It means that it is possible that God is using therapy as His means to heal you. I know not everyone will agree with what I'm about to say, because I am very much speaking from my subjective experience, but in all of my very deeply healing moments, I have always felt God's presence, that the healing flowed from Him. The hard work was necessary to get to a place where I could experience the healing. And my T was the conduit through which God choose to pour Himself, among many others.

If you had an infection, you would not hesitate to take antibiotics. Does that indicate a lack of trust in God. All truth is God's truth, and that means that all human knowledge has it's roots in God. Therefore, the real knowledge that therapists possess about the truth of the human condition and how to help someone is part of that truth.

There's an old joke I want to share with you that illustrates the point. A bad flood warning was announced, and people in the area were told to evacuate their homes. There was a very devout man who lived there, but told his neighbors he wouldn't leave because he knew that God would save him. The streets flooded and while the man waited and prayed, a man in a boat came by and said "get in my boat, I'll take you to safety" and the man replied "No God will save me." The water rose higher and higher until the man was on his roof. A helicopter flew overhead and a man with a rope ladder yelled down "Climb up, we'll take you to safety!" Again, the man replied "No, God will save me!" The flood continued to rise and the man died. When he arrived in Heaven, he said to God "But Lord, I was so strong in my faith, and I called out to you to save me, why did you let me die?" And God told him, I sent you an evacuation notice, a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?

I believe that healing is something that God desires for us because He loves us and until we heal from these wounds, they can keep us from serving Him in the way He calls us to. Just my two cents on the subject, and I could be totally wrong, but I wanted to share it with you.

AG

thanks all,

mh, i think things like that are best to get out in the first session. so you were smart. and really, when i think about it, i was not prying for my own curiousity, i was prying to see what was safe to talk about in there, as i sensed Jesus was not on his page and it makes me so sad to feel this. and like a big wall is up between us. thanks for your support.

BB, regarding the husband thing, i really think it is this 'all knowing/master/parent' approval. and my husband is more of a peer, if that makes sense. thanks for your grace in your reply, and it helps to know God understands, but when i feel i hesitate to share the support and hope i feel through Jesus's love, it makes me feel really like a betrayer that i am not comfortable sharing, to my caretaker, something controversial that he doesn't agree with. i DON'T want to be pitied or belittled, yet i don't want to take issue with him, and i don't know where the middle is. there was never acceptance of others differences (my differences) growing up and i am so afraid of disconnection with someone i am growing to rely on.

butterfly, if it is part of the process, and i sense you are right on that, then i am tracking along...i sure feel the start of a mountain ahead!! thanks for your encouragement, and i do think it is new insight for me...i always thought i was so honest.

debbye, so you relate to the lying to stay out of trouble. that is so true. trouble for things that we shouldn't feel in trouble for. i feel in trouble for anything that causes the slightest wave. oh, to have a new personality would be so nice!! too, good luck with your t seeming to be impatient with you. i got that too, and i just cried and said i was sorry. so powerful!! geez, am i six???

bg, yes, why we do what we do...my top three are guilt avoidance, to stay out of trouble, and topping the list, to stay attached!!

ag, yes, being conscious of it is one big startler for me, but, in the moment, facing the fear, and somehow, without tears or anger, being honest with our needs. i know the social anxiety of the situation plays a big role, i am so busy pretending to be sound that i don't even know who i am (which no one believes), so, before time goes by, just honestly stating my need. BIG STEP, but i'll put it in the thinker!!

and regarding God and therapy...i DO think God gave us a brain to use, and a community to be a part of, and a family/friend support group to do this in...i am just feeling guilty about the fact that i don't feel comfortable talking about my faith and Jesus in particular with this non-believing caretaker. it makes me think i should leave, to be loyal to Jesus, but, i don't know, i just feel so confused here. and to voice my beliefs, i just fear criticism or pandering, and i can't face either. so i keep quiet, and feel so wrong.
thanks for your thoughts, i like your example you gave, and then i feel the overwhelming pull to be a good witness, and that that is my role in there, for Jesus, and i feel VERY out brained in that dept. i think i just need to voice my thoughts and explain my asking him these questions, and tell him i feel i need to lie to protect the relationship, and how hard it is for me to NOT be a chameleon. thanks for your support!!

pals, i feel so torn. i feel like i create obstacles for myself, and ocd them to death. and possibly, t thought nothing of it.

i wish and pray i could find balance and the middle of the road. it is like i am constantly being swept off of my feet and ending up in the gutter on the left and on the right, and i just can't seem to get any footing.

thanks all, jill