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Hi all,

I'm sorry to post yet again but I have a question. If you've read my other posts, I had a difficult session on Wed., went and saw my T for an extra session on Thurs. As I left he said feel free to call me if you need to. So today I was feeling so much better I wrote him an Email to say thank you and describe some of my thoughts after the session and then I didn't hear from him all day. All I would expect would be a quick email response. So now I'm wondering if I really freaked him out and he's going to tell me he can't treat me anymore. I probably would have been worried no matter what but him not responding to the Email makes it worse. Do you think I couldn't leave well enough so I email him to poke at my fears(subconciously)? Anyone else do this?

As background, I've asked him before to clarify his policies around communication between sessions and he won't. Kind of says it is okay to contact me and if it becomes not okay I will tell you which is very frustrating to me. Also he has been inconsistent in responding to my emails/calls.. if I tell him I'm upset or want a response he always responds but if I'm not clear I want a response (an email about my thoughts) he sometimes does and sometimes doesn't.

I'm actually not that emotionally upset currently. I think that my body has been so stressed the last few days I don't have the energy for my stress. I'm interested in your thoughts intellectually but I think by the time I go to my next session on Tuesday I am going to be pretty anxious.

Let me know what you think,
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Oh, incognito I had to reply to this because you sound EXACTLY like me. I do the same thing. And yes, this has happened to me before. More than once. I have been through those difficult sessions and have asked for an additional session. I have felt that grateful feeling and I have mailed my T... and then.. no response. So I get mad at myself for sending the email knowing it would be torture waiting for a response. When it does not come... then I'm convinced that he hates me, that I'm a horrible person and at my next sessio he will terminate me. I manage to work myself into quite a frenzy over an unanswered email.

The last time this happened I sent email on Monday night. By Friday not getting a response I was sure he was avoiding me and thinking that I was such an annoyance. So I get a call from him that morning telling me he needs to cancel my son's appointment that evening...so now I freak out thinking that this is it. It's because of that email and the extra session I had asked for. So I get upset about the cancelation and find the courage to ask him if he ever got my email. He says I don't remember... what was it about? So I tell him and he says let me check my email and turns on the computer. It was taking awhile and I said the subject is _____ please just read it. So now he can tell I'm upset and he asks me if I want a call back and I say no just a response would be fine. We scheduled a new appointment and that was it.

Later I get an email from him which has become the most important email I have ever received from him. My email had basically asked for reassurance that we were okay. He wrote back to me that he was sorry that he didn't respond. That he did get my email but saw it as a rhetorical question and didn't think I needed an answer. But now he understands and he told me that he would be there for me, no matter what and if ever I thought things were not okay then we would work to make it so.

I cried a long time over that email and I carry it with me to remind me that he will always be there for me. Those words were very powerful and came on a day when I convinced myself that he hated me. Go figure.

So, give your T the benefit of the doubt. He sounds like he does care about you and has perhaps thought that you were not asking for a response. As for the guidelines about contact... they are fuzzy for me as well. My T will sometimes say it's okay to email and today because I had a rough Wednesday session and I emailed him and then called him he told me if things get intense I can call him this weekend. He has never done that before and I'm with him for 10 months now.

So please don't think it has anything to do with you and with your relationship with your T. It will all be okay. It's just a communication thing. Please keep us posted.

True North
Hi incognito,
OK, first off, you are NOT asking too many questions. Actually, you're asking really good questions about issues that most people in therapy struggle with, so discussing the issues and getting everyone's input helps all of us. I don't want you worrying about that.

So, good question! Smiler I think communicating outside of sessions is a difficult subject for anyone in therapy because its so bound up in the boundaries of the theraputic relationship. Its further complicated by the fact that how things are handled vary by therapist. They don't all handle it the same way.

It sounds like your therapist is being a little vague about where those boundaries fall. There's a good reason for this. How we react tothe boundaries and what we chose to do to make contact can be important information that can be used in therapy. If he gives you too rigid a definition, you may feel very constrained and he could lose valuable information. On the other hand, the fact that it is so vague is bothering you if also very valuable information and would be good to discuss.

One of the confusing things about therapy, especially when there is a strong transference is that you keep thinking you need to talk about your "issues" while it seems like all your time and attention are going to your relationship with your therapist. But that's how it works. You will actually live out or "enact" your unconscious, implicit relationship patterns with your therapist. But in this unique relationship you have both a deliberately self-aware person concentrated on your needs and the ability to dissect and examine the relationship in ways which could be very threatening for other types of relationships. How you react to your therapist, how you feel about your therapist, what you want from him, how you feel about his actions are exactly the places from which you'll be able to learn about yourself. I have found that the more open I can be with my T, the more work that gets done. A lot of my progess has been from pursuing a lot of these issues.

Now, that is SO much easier said then done, and their is an unspeakably high anxiety level involved. I know for myself, no matter how reassuring my T is about it (and trust me the man kills himself being reassuring about it) I still struggle when I feel the need to contact him. And that period of time between when you initiate contact and hear back can be hellish in the extreme. I think we are so primed for rejection and disaster but at the same time so wildly hopeful that something different will occur that its emotionally exhausting. And you spend half your time trying to calm your fears to feel safer and half the time trying to calm your hopes so you aren't so dissappointed when the seemingly inevitable disaster occurs.

But I don'think you're trying to sabotage yoursself at all, although I know I've definitely felt that way on plenty of occassions. Actually, you're learning to do relationships in a new way and an important part of that is learning that you can make your needs known, for contact and for reassurance, a chance to communicate gratitude, and have that be acted on or accepted are a very important part of healing. That's the really good side of communicating outside of sessions.

For me, there was also the realization at one point that I was using the contacts, especially the emails as a way to try and elicit emotional responses from my T that were outside the boundaries. I really struggle sometimes (read that MOST of the time) with the desire to be special to my therapist and to belong to him in a way which would tie us beyond just therapy. Those desires are much more about what I didn't have as a child but get acted out in our relationship. My T is amazing about phone calls. If I call and leave an emergency message, he calls back within an hour. He's lousy about answering emails however (ok, he's not perfect, I'm admitting it Smiler) so I've learned to use email only when I'm not as worried about timing, but I learned it the hard way. At one point, I was emailing him fairly regularly (usually once between sessions) and on a particular occasion I poured my heart out about something he had disclosed about his relationship with his dad in a couples session (he did so because it was very helpful for my husband. He does self-disclose but ONLY when its for the benefit of the patient). When I say poured my heart out, I mean I poured my heart out. He didn't answer for three days. By the time the reply came I was frantic. I opened the reply, heart in my mouth, to see "Thank you." If he had been in front of me I think I would have ripped his arm off and beat him over the head with it. Big Grin I was so frustrated it felt like my head was going to explode.

So my next session I talked to him about how agonzing it was to wait for email but even worse how horrible it was getting that terse reply. He said this was a really good example to talk about because he had really thought very carefully before answering my email. He went through the email and explained why he said what he did. And that's when I had to come face to face with the fact that what I was really wanting was for him to open up emotionally about what he was feeling, to be more "equal" with him. We had a really good discussion about how frustrating the theraputic relationship can be. I told him it was like hurling myself against a wall trying to get a door to open and nothing happened. The healing part was that he was able to hear how I felt and really understand it, even validate it while not moving the boundaries. But how I reacted to those boundaries told me alot about myself.

Sorry, I've been doing a lot of pondering about boundaries lately so I'm afraid it tripped off a very long response. Having to wade through this post will teach you not to ask questions! Big Grin

I do want to reassure though that judging from your posts, you're doing really well and working hard at your therapy. But it usually doesn't feel like that when you're doing it. But trust me, it looks pretty obvious from the outside.


AG
Incognito, I totally understand how you are feeling. I think many people feel this way when they e-mail someone that is important in their life and they don't get a response. I know that I have worked myself into a frenzy over a lack of a response. So now I always try to let them have the last reply to an e-mail I sent so that I am not worried about why they haven't responded. I know I shouldn't do this, but I just stand the suspense.

Maybe he hasn't answered you because he hasn't checked his e-mail. I know it is easier said than done, but just take a deep breath and try not to worry.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Attachment Girl:

And that period of time between when you initiate contact and hear back can be hellish in the extreme. I think we are so primed for rejection and disaster but at the same time so wildly hopeful that something different will occur that its emotionally exhausting. And you spend half your time trying to calm your fears to feel safer and half the time trying to calm your hopes so you aren't so dissappointed when the seemingly inevitable disaster occurs.

AG, great post as usual. I think many of us can agree with the passage that I quoted from you.
quote:
It sounds like your therapist is being a little vague about where those boundaries fall. There's a good reason for this. How we react tothe boundaries and what we chose to do to make contact can be important information that can be used in therapy. If he gives you too rigid a definition, you may feel very constrained and he could lose valuable information. On the other hand, the fact that it is so vague is bothering you if also very valuable information and would be good to discuss.

One of the confusing things about therapy, especially when there is a strong transference is that you keep thinking you need to talk about your "issues" while it seems like all your time and attention are going to your relationship with your therapist. But that's how it works. You will actually live out or "enact" your unconscious, implicit relationship patterns with your therapist. But in this unique relationship you have both a deliberately self-aware person concentrated on your needs and the ability to dissect and examine the relationship in ways which could be very threatening for other types of relationships. How you react to your therapist, how you feel about your therapist, what you want from him, how you feel about his actions are exactly the places from which you'll be able to learn about yourself. I have found that the more open I can be with my T, the more work that gets done. A lot of my progess has been from pursuing a lot of these issues.



AG.... once again you explain things so clearly and what you said really resonates with me. I sort of had a vague idea of what you just described above but your words put it into much better focus for me. Especially the part about the fuzzy boundaries reagarding outside of session contact. I always wondered by my T did not just spell it all out and make it easier for me to follow. But now I see how much wiser he is than I am. Thank you for making me realize that.

And yes it's so hard waiting for the return contact because you are so primed for disappointment but when you are NOT disappointed it is so gratifying to feel that you can actually ask for something and GET it. To learn that and to receive that is a very precious thing.

TN
My T is so new to email that she will only know if I've sent her one if I call and leave her a message about it. So, if I have to call her anyway, it seems I really shouldn't bother emailing her anything short of a personal epiphany.

I struggled with the whole calling thing yesterday. I decided to write about this struggle and email it to her. So, now of course I have to call her anyway to tell her to check her email. I haven't done this yet. It just seems too ironic. Of course after writing everything down I felt so much better that I didn't really need a response from her so I may not call her about it at all.

BTW I always try to specifically state in an email or vm what kind of response I need from her. I hate that waiting period for all of those reasons AG mentioned above. So to make it easier on myself I try to eliminate any doubt about whether or not I am going to hear from her and how soon. This of course was a lesson I learned the hard way. We all do.

I really loved what you said AG, about the between sessions contact boundaries being vague on purpose. I hadn't thought about that but it makes a lot of sense. I know I have learned stuff about my self as I have struggled through it. For the first 1 1/2 yrs of therapy I didn't even assume I could call her. When she finally mentioned it after I described a particularly difficult weekend I had I was surprised (and miffed) that she hadn't explicitly told me this in the beginning. Therapy is such a trip!
Hi all,

AG, I loved your explanation for why my T was so fuzzy on the communication boundaries. I thought he was trying to drive me crazier Smilerbecause I'm good at following rules when I know what the rules are.

Simply me and River, I understand how you try and be clear about whether or not you get a response or allow the other person to get in the last response so you don't have to think about it and I am also learning those techniques so I sometimes end an email of vm saying I know we will need to talk about this in person but just let me know you received it.

I think I'm struggling with my email because it had so many different layers to it. When I sent it I was aware that I wanted to let him know I was okay after a couple of difficult sessions and thank him for being himself and not recoiling in horror from what I told him on Thursday (quite a shock to me). So when I sent it I thought he might not reply but that's okay because I am sending it for me not what response I get. But I think my I had other goals I was unaware of at the time such as "are we still okay" "did you recoil in horror" after I left and are now trying to figure out how to get rid of me? And now that I read your thoughts AG, maybe there is a part of me that wants to be special to him in some undefined way.

After 7 months of seeing him, I think I am just starting to believe I can trust him, he can accept me, I might not be the person I always thought I was and it scares me to death. I think when you start to trust someone and things start to look better is when you are about to get screwed and your whole world is going to crash down on you, a legacy from my childhood.

I'm managing my anxiety currently in part because he has always been trustworthy so far and in a bigger part because reading this board and hearing all your stories has helped me realize my "reality" is not always real, others have struggled with so many of the same issues and gotten through them and maybe I am not different from everyone in the world.

thank you all
quote:
After 7 months of seeing him, I think I am just starting to believe I can trust him, he can accept me, I might not be the person I always thought I was and it scares me to death I think when you start to trust someone and things start to look better is when you are about to get screwed and your whole world is going to crash down on you, a legacy from my childhood.[Emphasis mine- AG]


I SO get that! I really didn't understand my ambivalance about getting close to someone until my transference developed. If you had asked me I would have told that I had always longed to feel loved and accepted for who I was. That I was really scared to let someone see me because they would leave but I was totally unaware that getting what I wanted would scare me to death!

After I told my T I was attracted to him, I tried to run six different ways to Sunday, even going to another T for six sessions. That's when my T cued in on it being an attachment issue because of how I was simultaneously telling him how wonderful it was to feel cared for by him AND hunting for an excuse, any excuse, to get out of Dodge.

One of the most difficult things for me to deal with is when my Ts care and concern and liking for me are so evident that even I am not capable of denying it. Scares me to the bottom of my socks. My T and I have talked about it a LOT; he calls it the bind. Sometimes, the hellish bind. Smiler It crops up again and again in so many different forms. On the upside, I've developed a new respect for my creativity. Big Grin

AG
quote:
One of the most difficult things for me to deal with is when my Ts care and concern and liking for me are so evident that even I am not capable of denying it. Scares me to the bottom of my socks.


This is so true for me too! What is this all about? This is something that my carefree husband cannot even begin to understand. I truly envy his ability to ask for and get what he needs or wants and be totally casual about it.

This also relates to what happened with the whole email/calling thing I mentioned in a post here yesterday. So, I did finally call my T yesterday and left a vm asking her to read the email I sent Friday and that I would talk to her Mon (our next session.) So for the rest of the day I am occasionally checking my email to see if she has responded (yes, only occasionally - I was surprisingly not obsessive about this.) Well, around 8pm my cell phone rings and I instantly know that it is her because only two other people ever call my cell and one was home with me. My first thought was "Shit I sent a email so that she wouldn't have to call me." I didn't get to my cell before it went to vm however, and so then I thought, "OK that works. I'll just listen to the message. No prob." Before I can check the msg however my home phone rings and so I have to admit to myself that her persistence warrants me answering the phone, which I did of course. It was very, very nice of her to call on a Saturday night just to connect and reassure me. In the end I did really appreciate it. It certainly made me feel so much better. Like a lot of our T's, she has been encouraging me to call when I need to & knows about my reluctance to do so. I think a little part of her calling me last night even when I didn't ask her to was to prove to me that it is OK TO CALL. I AM NOT BUGGING HER. I hope it sinks in this time.
River,
I think its awesome that your T was so persistent in contacting you, but its even better that you don't feel like you're bugging her. I actually find myself needing to get in contact less because I'm so sure it's ok too.

As far as the scared down to my socks, I think its the fear of finally having something to lose. I talked to my T a few sessions ago of feeling like where I ended up emotionally when it all got to be to much to handle as a kid, was a vast flat gray plane that stretched on forever in each direction, I'm completely alone and there is no other sign of life, no color, not even a breeze. There's also no emotion, I'm so far past despair that I'm resigned to feeling nothing. I know it sounds horrible but there was no hope so there was nothing further to lose, so that felt like there was no way to be hurt any further. And that felt like the best I could do.

When I feel loved, I feel the return of hope, that I can leave the gray plane behind, that finally I won't be alone. But that gives me something to lose, and based on my past experience, I WILL lost it. Its too good to be true. So instead of being able to enjoy being cared for, I just get scared about how hurt I'm going to be again. What I'm slowly learning is that all that isn't true. That I can trust my T, that its not such an impossible thought that someone would love me, or think highly of me, and although I'll experience some pain, that I can also know joy. Its taking a lot of time, but I think I'll get there eventually (if I live to 150. Big Grin )

Does drive me a little crazy though, I'd really just like to relax and enjoy it, especially because my T is really good at conveying his care and steadfastness.

AG
River, your post reminded me of a time right soon after I started therapy (August?) I had a hard time in a session - apparently what I did was called dissociating (I find/figured this out this week). *sigh* I had to say "I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said, I was busy being scared" to Tfella a lot.

The next week I canceled the session on the day of the session, by calling and leaving a message with the answering service over the lunch hour (I didn't know they did an answering service 12-1; they do). I said I was too busy with work or something. *mutter mutter nonspecific mutter*

Tfella called me the next day (I certainly hadn't asked him to), and asked if the reason I canceled had something to do with what had happened in the last session. I muttered something about that being possible, though I hadn't really thought about it when I was canceling. We set up a session for the next week.

Point for me was, it was really cool that he called, and I managed to tell him that. And it was really helpful for me to remember this when I had to actually email him to ask for an extra session recently: it was two weeks ago, when on the same day I had to talk my closest friend, who was feeling suicidal (eek! never grabbed for a phonebook quite so fast!) and found out my g-aunt had died and I had to go home to the fam.

You're totally right, AG: knowing that Tfella is there and that I _can_ ask for help makes it much easier to both deal with needing help and with actually not needing it quite so often. Smiler Weird!
quote:
"I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said, I was busy being scared"



i have absolutely done that many times myself. he is so good at containing his own emotions, i guess, that i usually think he's just bored to tears with me because he just sits there, patiently waiting for me to compose myself and get my act back together.

quote:
we are so primed for rejection and disaster but at the same time so wildly hopeful that something different will occur that its emotionally exhausting. And you spend half your time trying to calm your fears to feel safer and half the time trying to calm your hopes so you aren't so dissappointed when the seemingly inevitable disaster occurs.



amen!!

i used to think of myself as an intellectual before i started reading these posts. how do you express yourselves so well? it's awesome!!
quote:
"I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you just said, I was busy being scared"

i have absolutely done that many times myself. he is so good at containing his own emotions, i guess, that i usually think he's just bored to tears with me because he just sits there, patiently waiting for me to compose myself and get my act back together.


Heh. Whereas my Tfella had a slightly different reaction: I have a stunningly poker blank face, pretty much any time. My "listening" face and my "scared all to the dickens and mentally checked out" face are nearly identical. So Tfelle sighed and was like, "Um, we totally need to work out a signal for when that's going on."

I think he's since gotten better at reading me, but at that point he really had no chance. *pats Tfella onna head through the interwebs* He tried, though!

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