Hi Ninn...I think your T would like it if you were not in pain but that is not going to happen just because she says so. I think you have a right to your feelings and I also think you are still grieving. Grief is something that has its own timetable and is a process. Talking about it helps and so does time in some cases. It also comes and goes depending on triggers and anniversaries are BIG triggers for me and for most people I would think.

What would have been more helpful for your T to say was "do you want to talk about those feelings you are having? or ask you how you wanted to handle the feelings... talk, cry, just sit, whatever would help you.

Sometimes I think our T's just want to make us "all better" without respecting the time and the process it will take to get there.

I hope your son is doing well now, Ninn. Condolences on losing your father.

Hugs
TN

Hi Ninn,

I would have a hard time with your T's first question, too. I would have felt a bit shut down.

The second question sounds a bit more like there are important things to find out and it would be good to unearth some of them. Still, even that would be a hard question to answer. If you work on answering it with her a bit, and start to try to get a sense of it while you are with her, even if what you say isn't perfect and doesn't necessarily make sense, maybe you can get some ideas. You could even start with some of the things you mentioned in parentheses. You don't have to already have an answer when you talk about it again. You can ask her to help you talk it out, maybe.

All the memories of your kids and all the physical issues sound so immediate and visceral. And the old grief just adds to it. My dad died in May 39 years ago. I don't understand why grief seems to go on and on, either. Sometimes it seems like therapy can help with that, but it sure is not easy.

Take care and good luck.

Quell

Grief is hard for me to deal with too! She can't hurry you through grief no matter what questions she asks. I believe you'll get through it and find it helpful acknowledging the ones you've lost. If others mentioned them to you too, I bet that would touch your heart and go a long way towards healing. Does it have to be hard/why is it still painful, the answer in my opinion - because you still miss them. I think it's perfectly okay for you to have the feelings you have!!! ~D.

((((((( Ninn )))))))

Wow I am so sorry you are going through so much pain and loss, anniversaries, and I'm really sorry about your son .

I'm also sorry that your T said such a stupid and insensitive thing (because that's how I see it). Her intention may well have been to be 'helpful' but in my experience that kind of comment ALWAYS comes across as 'can't you see that YOU are MAKING yourself feel bad'.

Reading her second comment I get the impression that she might have been floundering - perhaps she was overwhelmed by her sense of your pain and instead of going into it with you, thought she would be 'helpful' and try and alleviate it by drawing you out of it and getting you to think ABOUT it. Which in my books is dismissive and negating and hurtful, though not intentional. On the other hand this second comment may have been her way of trying to get you to go further into it, to express more of what you were feeling/thinking? It's hard to tell in isolation but I do know that had my T made those two comments on the trot I'd have become shut down, resentful, defensive and felt like I'd been told that my pain didn't matter only 'getting rid' of it did.

You know, it may not be that she wants you to come up with answers per se, so much as giving the opportunity to work through ALL your feelings. Even something as self evidently painful as the anniversaries you are talking about can hold deeper and conflicting feelings that thinking about the 'why you feel as you do' question can bring into your awareness.

I really hope you can tell T how her comments made you feel though and get her to understand how they affected you and maybe get her explanation of what she actually intended by them.

LL

Hi Ninn,

Nice to meet you..albeit when you sound like you are struggling with a whole vortex of emotions.

I think for another person to sit with you and gently support you while you are in pain is absolutely a gift of therapy. If my t asked me if something had to be that painful, it would be an opening to explore the pain and try and untangle what is going on - not to dismiss it. So maybe your t was trying to go for that direction and just misjudged the words she used a bit? Just a thought.

Best of luck with it all. Be gentle on yourself.

xxx

quote:

I think for another person to sit with you and gently support you while you are in pain is absolutely a gift of therapy. If my t asked me if something had to be that painful, it would be an opening to explore the pain and try and untangle what is going on

I agree. My T has said almost the exact same thing before, and I later look back and realize he was showing me that now, the control lies with me - saying "does it have to be [painful]?" would be his way of helping me to see that no, it doesn't HAVE to be - healing is an option, and I'm going to choose it. Some people's comfort zones lie in grief and bitterness and unforgivingness, because that's what they've been taught or what they've been used to all their lives, but saying, "does it have to be?" puts the ball back in their court - in each of our courts - what do we really want? We have a choice now.

Asking "why do you think it is still so painful for you?" might have been a gentle prodding of exploration - allowing you, on your terms, to look into that box and feel and explore or just close it back up again - your choice.

Our T's sound a lot alike - both of the comments from yours are almost verbatim what mine has said when something difficult from my past has come up, and I know he's helping me to realize that I have choices - for example, I can a) sit and stew and decide to deal with the box's contents later, or b) explore its misery until I feel "done" with it, and can peacefully put the box away, or c) jump in the box, get lost in its misery, and need help getting back out again. That's how it is with me anyway.


Starry

HI Ninn: Your post resonated with me. I had my daughter a year to the date of a traumatic miscarriage (both on St. Patrick's day) and then I had a second miscarriage nearly on the same day two years after having my daughter which was also traumatic. I didn't process or deal with the miscarriages because I felt people didn't really want to hear about it and the responses were along the lines of "god's plan, can still get pregnant, etc.) Finally when my daughter was 6 and I was going through major depression I went to therapy (a year ago this month) and we started talking about complicated grief. After numerous sessions of processing all the feelings, I finally felt validated and acknowledged and I was able to move on from those negative feelings. I encourage you to do the same even if you think your T doesn't want to hear it. I think she was trying to get you in the space I eventually got to where the event and trauma are processed and the pain not so acute. My T and I still refer to those experiences but it doesn't devastate me now. You are experiencing, in my layperson opinion, complicated grief as well and until you feel you are heard and acknowledged, I think you will find it hard to move forward (not to be equated with "forgetting" it). I hope you can embark on that journey and experience the relief I obtained from my T by talking about it and examining the emotions it brought up. Best wishes to you.

I asked T what she meant by, "Does it have to be painful?"

She said we don't choose for a memory to come into conscience, but we can choose what we do with it after it does. She gave an example of a situation where someone died (and an anniversary comes up every year), but my son didn't die, yet I still had/have grief, so anyway, in terms of my situation, I "make" (or "keep") it painful because I believe that I am a bad mom if I don't (she said).

Hmm, what is your reaction to that answer, Ninn?

Oh wow - Ninn. I'm sorry - that must have been a bit much to take in. I'm sure what she says is true... but sometimes all the 'head' stuff and facts don't help the hurt internal world. Sometimes my t has gone ahead too much for me and I have to slow her down and we talk about what I need from her right in that moment. Really, really hope you can work through this with her.
Hugs xx

Hi Ninn,

The choice aspect of pain really is hard to see and understand sometimes. My T once put this in a really nice way for me that I could take in - he said "at some point, it becomes a choice...".

I liked that because it doesn't say WHEN that point is! And I think when you're not there you're not there, but that awareness that we COULD choose a different way of relating to our hurts is sometimes a turning point (not necessarily a comfortable turning point!).

Thanks for your responses.

To me, grief has a purpose. It reminds us of what is precious in life. When we are reminded of our losses, we appreciate even more what we have. I'm having a difficult time understanding why others are suggesting that you need to make this pain "just go away". Pain is pain. It's there, going through it makes us deeper, more interesting, spiritually mature and compassionate people. Even though it feels crappy at the time.

On second thought, I do know why. Most people, including some T's, are intensely uncomfortable just "sitting with" and respecting the pain of others and the discomfort it brings. Perhaps this is a time for solitude and deep reflection, to respect yourself and allow the feelings to happen so that when you come out the other side, there is something to be gained from having done so. Of course, I'm not saying that reaching out is a bad thing, but I do know that often it makes me feel worse. Are you able to talk to other mothers who have gone through something similar?

Don't let anyone tell you what to think or feel, or that you should just "flip a switch" and "choose" to feel differently. I don't think that it works that way. Doing so is what I call a "spiritual bypass" or a shortcut. Those who deny what they feel don't really get rid of their feelings, but rather create other problems... illness, depression, passive-aggressive behavior. People that deny "negative" emotions tend to be VERY out of touch with their own lives, and the lives of others.

Maybe after some quiet reflection you will find that peace and happiness will return. The real kind. Honoring yourself, honoring your son. Maybe in the future you may find that there is another person who is going through a similar experience that would benefit greatly from your compassion.

For what it's worth, only you will know what's honest and what is not.

Ninn, I'm sorry you have deleted, and I hope that my comment didn't make things worse for you. Certainly I didn't mean the discussion of choice to be invalidating. Whatever you are feeling now it is real and valid, and I hope that you and your T both can be really compassionate with you in it.

Number9, I'm not sure if you read my comment as meaning we can and should just 'make pain go away'. That was not what I meant.

What I have found for myself is that I sometimes turn my pain into worse suffering by the way I relate to myself about it - beating myself up, or hating the world, or hanging on to fear as a kind of security blanket. When I become conscious of those ways of suffering, I can choose to let them go. There's no 'should' about this. It's just a moment of consciousness that sometimes occurs as part of the healing process. Knowing it's there and is possible is sometimes what MAKES it possible, if that makes sense. This is not the same as denying pain or pretending I feel better than I do. Those things do come from some kind of 'should' mentality, and that's something different - something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I totally agree with you about the honouring of grief and pain. Often that kind of honouring is actually the kind of choice I'm talking about - shifting from a compounded kind of suffering (hating and resisting one's own pain) to a more welcoming relationship with the full experience.

Wow Jones, I really like how you put that!

Oh, Ninn. I'm so sorry it's so heartbreakingly hard. I cringed when you described how T tries to relate stories to your situation. I can tell she means well, but I would hope she would be able to take your perspective and see how you might interpret it.

I'm often similar in that I feel like I can't tell my T the same thing twice. I've never really shared that with her, though. And I think I do often share things with her more than once, but I think it's typically because I've dissociated and forgotten that I've already said it in another session or something. But even when I get an inkling that I've already said something, I try hard to move on to something else. But our T's know that therapy is a cyclical process and we have to repeat things over and over and over again for any healing to take place.

Next time your T is saying something that just feels like too much, do you think you can share that with her? Whenever my T starts to say something that she think will be too triggering or something, she'll always preface it with the invitation for me to stop her whenever I need to, if it feels like too much. Because if you've gotten to the point where your mind just shuts off, you've just been pushed too far - and that (ideally) shouldn't happen in a productive session.

Hugs to you, Ninn..

((Ninn)) I like kashley's advice and I'm so sorry that it feels so difficult for your T to connect to the experiences you've had and feelings you've had. A T's job is to connect with us empathetically enough to 'see' the world from our eyes. I have trouble telling my T things she has heard before (either stuff from me, or stuff I assume she's heard from everyone) it makes it very hard and very scary... I think because we need to look at things from so many angles it makes sense we need to process/reprocess that it makes sense we may repeat ourselves.

Sending good thoughts your way.