More Than Fine,

Having just gone through something similar with my T, I felt the need to comment. I wasn't talking to him because I thought he was uneasy with my feelings. He thought I was uneasy talking about my feelings and so he was not pushing me as hard as he should have. And we got stuck too. The interesting thing for me, MTF, was that that's exactly the relationship I had with my Dad. We all tiptoed around him. I found that startling that somehow T and I have recreated that same dynamic in therapy. Although I guess that's what is supposed to happen.

But all along, I have been honest with him about my attachment to him so that wouldn't be news to him. But we've been talking more and he has been totally accepting of my feelings. But it goes beyond the feelings to making connections.

But once T and I talked about that, I started to make the connections to the past that we've been talking about. And things got better. And, so I think the answer here is to try to talk to your T about your obsessiveness about her. Maybe she can help you erase any shame and disgust you feel about yourself.

I don't know that my obsessiveness has gone away but it's definitely helped to be able to talk about it openly with T and I feel as though in some ways, I am getting ready to move away from T (just a little) and do the things I need to do in life.

The obsessiveness just comes down to unmet emotional needs. And I guess they can be unmet for a variety of reasons. But, the reason they are currently unmet is not your fault. For me, whenever I've popped my "T" bubble and realized that my obsessiveness really isn't about him but the things in life that I want and how far I am from having those, the weight of that acknowledgement sometimes is too huge and painful to bear.

But really the best thing is to try to take that leap and be open and honest with your T. She sounds like she really wants you to talk to her. Maybe you could write her a letter and tell her the most difficult things that way. Or just start with one thing. Once you open the door even a little, hopefully you will see that it will get easier and easier.

Hang in there,

Liese

P.S. I just confessed my intense jealousy to T and he said it's caused by my dependency feelings. It's that catch-22. If I wasn't dependent, I wouldn't feel those feelings. But somehow, we have to learn to tolerate the dependency feelings in order to get to that interdependent state.

Hey MTF,

Kind of short on words right now, sorry I can't give a more detailed response.

quote:

She tells me that what I am keeping from her is “killing our relationship”.

This really bothers me MTF, because it sounds like she is putting the burden of the entire relationship on you when she also HAS to share some of the responsibility. Instead of saying what you are keeping from her is killing the relationship, she needs to look more at her approach and see if anything she is doing is leaving you *unable* to tell her what you need to say. It's different when it comes to other relationships, because those are more reciprocal. But the therapy relationship is different. Your T obviously recognizes the pattern, but she's not changing her approach to help you change yours, which is what needs to happen. Sure, we're all supposed to reenact real life situations in session, but then the therapist is supposed to throw a wrench in the normal pattern.

I just worry, MTF, because it seems like your T still hasn't gotten with the program. I know you have had some really hard, courageous sessions where you confessed some huge things to her and it seemed like she got it...but I don't know.

I'm really sorry if this is way too harsh. I just feel like you have tried so hard for so long. Anyway, I don't want to deny the good things that your T has given you. She does care about you...that's been obvious in several situations. And I could also be *completely* off the mark, so please feel free to let me know.

Take care, MTF. ((((((hugs))))))

MTF, much of what I write is speaking from my own experience since yours resonates so much with me. I hope it helps to get at least some perspectives in you awfully painful situation. (((((MTF))))

quote:

Sure, we're all supposed to reenact real life situations in session, but then the therapist is supposed to throw a wrench in the normal pattern.

Wow, succinctly, and well-said, Kashley. But then- my other voice chimes in and says- I do wonder if *we* are the ones that are supposed to throw a wrench in the normal pattern, and that if, against all odds we somehow manage to simply *force* ourselves to do that, there will be freedom and growth that will happen? Kind of like what Monte is forcing herself to do in her sessions. Not allowing her emotions to make all the decisions (i.e. run away- run away!) But making herself keep going back in there no matter what, and face it all. I agree with her that email might give things a push in your situation. When you've got painted into a corner, where speaking has become something that feels like such a huge deal now, it might be just the ticket out of that corner. The only thing is- will T be willing to address emails in session even if you don't initiate the convo? Mine didn't, so it just led to *more* unresolved stuff. The pileup, and especially with infrequent session, got to be too much backlog to be able to deal with in a one hour session every so often.Eventually we got to the point where he would actually say: "so you sent me this email-" And I would be shocked into silence that he remembered, or would offer me that much, for one thing, and then, I would wait for him to ask me something about it, but he never did, just sat there waiting for me to say something about it. ugh. and then when he *would* say something about it, it was in such an exasperated way, it felt like he was saying:
"oh, look, now you've *made* me talk about it, and ask you a question. And you are not supposed to do that. You are not supposed to have any awareness that I know what is going on with you. It's *all* supposed to come from you. You don't "get" anything from me, here. You just give. But you've pulled me into your web again, and you are *doing this wrong.* "

He was always waiting for me to be the one to bridge the divide between us, even though he was at least partially responsible for creating that divide in the first place. It is a terrible thing a T does, when they create an intimate connection and sense of emotional closeness with us- and then fail to meet the responsibility that creating such a connection brings with it. It is abusive. They should not offer things to clients that they cannot fulfill. It is too painful when they take it away. How was I to know it was safe? How are you to know it is safe, now, MTF? However, I will say I wish I had consistently made the decision to *force* myself to say something to bridge that divide- anything. Because at some point it *does* just die, if the T decides to let it- and then you have to walk away. I tried to walk across that divide after I had already given up the notion that my T would meet me, or come after me- and even doing that, it didn't really mean anything to me anymore, even though my T was now pleased with the way sessions were going- it just felt like one more abuse, one more time when I gave in on getting my needs met and carried it all even when I wasn't capable. And even that, lost it's power to affect me, I had already "died," in some sense. I don't want this to happen to you.

One thing you don't need to be left with is the notion that therapy failing is entirely your fault. It takes two to make any relationship therapeutic or otherwise work or fail, it is never one-sided. But I do beleive that it is a therapeutic decision that your T is making, to ask you to be the one to take the first step. It is very true that if you choose not to, she will let the relationship die, MTF. Right or wrong of her, therapeutically- I have no idea, I'm no shrink. But she is leaving the responsibility with you, and you can't make her stop doing that, because she won't- since she really believes that this is in your best interest- most likely.

Anyway- you know which road I picked. I decided I needed more help from my T to bridge that divide, help that he was not willing to give me- and I've moved on, for now because the pain was just too intolerable. Unfortunately, quitting has not lessened the pain in my case. It's still there. I was hoping to feel a sense of relief and freedom, but that seems to have gotten stuck. That can be problematic, as I will have to start all over again with someone new, and how am I to know that won't be just the same as with my T who very truly said all the right things? Do I want to go through another two years of this, only to discover myself in the same situation? No way. I mean- there is this, that Liese said, that I agree with, and it's not *going* anywhere, just by finding a new T:

quote:

The obsessiveness just comes down to unmet emotional needs. And I guess they can be unmet for a variety of reasons. But, the reason they are currently unmet is not your fault. For me, whenever I've popped my "T" bubble and realized that my obsessiveness really isn't about him but the things in life that I want and how far I am from having those, the weight of that acknowledgement sometimes is too huge and painful to bear.

Gosh your situation resonates with me so deeply, MTF. I really, really relate to your struggle. and your T reminds me very much of mine in some ways. She is trying to force you into a position of taking responsibility for the therapy relationship, and making it go where you need it to, which sure- can be a good thing if a person is able to do that, but won't. Unfortunately, the risks have become too high for you to be able to attempt it, now, perhaps- and it can't happen without her help at this point.. ouch, if she doesn't give *big* help to resolve a painful situation that she is at least 50 percent if not more, responsible for creating int he first place. A very big ouch and a huge reenactment (in my case.)I hope I'm not projecting all my stuff onto you, if I am just say.

I hope you will be able to find a better way out of this attachment/transference hell than I have. I'm still really confused about the same things you are, so I can't help very much, I am sorry.

I'm sorry for War and Peace, here, MTF.

hugs,

BB

ps- sorry for all the massive edits. and making this all about me. yarg.

Thanks Monte, Liese, Kashley and Beebs for your responses. Sorry I'm so long at replying. I have been really struggling with all of this and some moments feel like ending with my T, and others like I should just go in there and tell her *everything* that is bugging me about this whole "relationship". Sigh... And while she may say that is what she *wants* me to do, I feel like it's a big slap in the face to her and like I'm the bad guy, even though some of it is her fault.

Monte,
I know you understand my struggle here. Like you, I just want to get out of this pain and not have this emotional ball and chain with me at every turn. I feel like I have truly got my back against the wall and nowhere to go but forward in a very direct and deliberate way with my T. I believe she knows she is the latest 'victim' of my attachment issues, and knows it comes from emotional deprivation in my life, from childhood, and now in my marriage and truly in *all* relationships in my current life. I am supposed to be working on asking for what I need, expressing my feelings instead of keeping them to myself and then feeling resentment, and similar things. Then I am to journal about my successes in doing so. I don't really know how to do any of this with people, and feel stuck in that assignment. It is what I was supposed to have done ages ago, but then didn't and got off-track on this attachment stuff. She thinks the attachment is my way (to an extent) of avoiding the other stuff I *need* to be focusing on. She understands why I am attached to her. She wants me to talk about it, but I have so much fear it is maddening.

Yes, seeing her weekly would be helpful. Perhaps in the fall when my kids are all in school all day and I can go in on a cancellation she might have, it might work out that she could do that with me again. I really should ask her. Again, I lack the courage.

I debate with myself over the emailing. I got into such trouble with my PT neighbor with emailing him. It is what ultimately ruined my relationship with him because I had such a need for connection with him that he didn't understand or know about, and when he answered me with really brief responses I got angry and shot off some of that anger to him in email. Of course I *know* my T is different, and so is the relationship, but I guess I really fear screwing things up with her, and becoming very dependent on her responses. I feel like I might be setting myself up for more heartache and disappointment, if you know what I mean. But I completely understand what you're saying about the connection being SO important to maintain. I too feel like I have two Ts; the one in real life, and the one in my head. And no, there is no real congruence in the two of them. Perhaps I need to explain it that way to my T so she can understand the need for connection on my off weeks. When she was calling me to check in for those months, it was very helpful. But she just falls off the wagon and forgets me, and I can't summon the courage to do what she asked me to and call her up and gently remind her that she forgot me. That would be super humiliating. So she put the onus on me to do the calling if I need to talk to her about something. Well, of course I need to talk to her, even if I have no pressing issue. I just need the connection. Somehow (I think) she doesn't seem to really *get* that.

I had an awful dream about her the other morning. It had me very unsettled. I dreamed that I was staying in her office while my H was in hospital for some crazy condition, and while she was her usual self with me she was VERY different with this employee in the office. They went upstairs (which was just another open area up a few stairs from where I was in her office) and I overheard their conversation and my T was *totally* different than she is with me. She was cussing (which is rare in sessions, and then it's only mild stuff) and her personality was SO different she sounded like a completely different person with T's voice. It made me wonder how much of what I see in session is 'real' and not just some act. I hate dreams like that. I have been tempted to call her and tell her I am struggling, but I feel like she'll expect some really big issue (which she probably won't), and I don't feel like what I'm dealing with warrants an emergency call to her while she is on vacation.

Thanks for your understanding, Monte. I know you really 'get' this stuff, and while I hate it for the both of us too, it is a comfort to not be alone in this.


Liese,

quote:

I wasn't talking to him because I thought he was uneasy with my feelings. He thought I was uneasy talking about my feelings and so he was not pushing me as hard as he should have. And we got stuck too.

This is exactly how things are with my T, I think. Problem is, I have outright told my T (in writing, which she read out loud to me) that I know I have made her uncomfortable with my issues, and she DID NOT even contradict that for me. So I feel like I am right; I do make her uncomfortable. Maybe not, but I think she would have told me that she's not uncomfortable with it if she really wasn't. That's why I struggle SO MUCH with talking about my feelings with her. I expect that she would disqualify something for me if it wasn't true, but she doesn't.

quote:

I think the answer here is to try to talk to your T about your obsessiveness about her. Maybe she can help you erase any shame and disgust you feel about yourself.

I think I will write her a letter about this obesessiveness and read it to her. She once handed me her OCD workbook (when I was 'ending' with her a few months ago) because she said that the obsessive component is troublesome to her. She was hoping that the suggestions in the chapter on Pure Obesession (different than typical OCD) would be helpful for me in relieving some of the obsessiveness. That was kind of an eye opener for me to have her think I have some form of OCD, and she was trying to propose that I see a T in the office there that does OCD work with patients. I came back with her workbook and told her it didn't have any ideas that I felt would help me, because frankly (and I didn't tell her this, but should have) OCD and this attachment obsession really don't have much in common, IMO.

quote:

The obsessiveness just comes down to unmet emotional needs. And I guess they can be unmet for a variety of reasons. But, the reason they are currently unmet is not your fault. For me, whenever I've popped my "T" bubble and realized that my obsessiveness really isn't about him but the things in life that I want and how far I am from having those, the weight of that acknowledgement sometimes is too huge and painful to bear.

I'm with you on this. I realize that this is really a huge part of it. And yes, when reality hits it is VERY huge and almost unbearable. Sorry you so closely relate to this stuff too. Thanks for your encouragement, Liese.


Kashley,

quote:

Instead of saying what you are keeping from her is killing the relationship, she needs to look more at her approach and see if anything she is doing is leaving you *unable* to tell her what you need to say. It's different when it comes to other relationships, because those are more reciprocal. But the therapy relationship is different. Your T obviously recognizes the pattern, but she's not changing her approach to help you change yours, which is what needs to happen.

I agree with you a lot here. I am almost feeling like hoping that she will do something differently is a moot point. She is who she is and I can either accept that, or go elsewhere. That's kind of the message I'm getting, anyway.

quote:

I'm really sorry if this is way too harsh. I just feel like you have tried so hard for so long.

Not too harh, K. I *have* tried hard for a long time now. It's getting beyond frustrating at times. Sometimes I feel like my T is doing this to push me into doing something different. Like BB said, to get ME to throw the wrench into the mix, not expect her to do it for me. I don't know. If I didn't feel the care I do from my T, I am sure I would have been out of there a long time ago. I think it's her care that keeps me coming back. It's a tough call. Thanks for your point of view on this.


Beebs,
I know you get this stuff, too. I'm sorry you're in such a bad place yourself.

quote:

I do wonder if *we* are the ones that are supposed to throw a wrench in the normal pattern, and that if, against all odds we somehow manage to simply *force* ourselves to do that, there will be freedom and growth that will happen? Kind of like what Monte is forcing herself to do in her sessions. Not allowing her emotions to make all the decisions (i.e. run away- run away!) But making herself keep going back in there no matter what, and face it all. I agree with her that email might give things a push in your situation. When you've got painted into a corner, where speaking has become something that feels like such a huge deal now, it might be just the ticket out of that corner. The only thing is- will T be willing to address emails in session even if you don't initiate the convo? Mine didn't, so it just led to *more* unresolved stuff.

I sort of see your point here, that maybe with some Ts they see it as our responsibility to do the changing of the pattern ourselves. But then I also agree with Kashley to some extent, too. It's hard to say, isn't it? Monte is doing one heck of a fine job in pushing herself to grow by not allowing the emotions to run the show. I wish I had the courage she does. But she has had a lot of painful experience that has brought her to this point. I think I have decided that I am tired of the pain and need to get past it SOONER than later. My T is not patient like Monte's T. She is a pusher of sorts. She calls herself "kick-butt", and in some ways, she is. Like, "here, let me kick you in the butt, MTF, and see how it feels!"

I also have to say that you made in important point about what my T will do with the email if I DO summon the courage to try that route. When I have made the painstaking effort to write her a letter and deliver it between sessions, she doesn't address it with me in session. I asked her about this I think last session, and she said it's because I said I didn't want to talk about it. And stupidly I just let it go. She said, "Would you like me to get it all out and go over it?" and I was so embarrassed and shocked that she had kept it all, and I just told her I was in a different place now that when I wrote all that stuff, which is true to some extent. I was thinking that if I wrote her something like I did that she would realize it needed to be discussed in person, and that I brought that material up because it was bothering me and needed some resolution. I guess we're definitely not on the same page with that stuff. Sort of like your T.

quote:

He was *always* waiting for *me* to be the one to bridge the divide between us, even though he was at least partially responsible for creating that divide in the first place. How was I to know it was safe? How are you to know it is safe, now, MTF? However, I will say I wish I had consistently made the decision to *force* myself to say something to bridge that divide- anything. Because at some point it *does* just die, and then you have to walk away. I tried to walk across that divide after I had already given up the notion that my T would meet me, or come after me- and even doing that, it didn't really mean anything to me anymore, even though my T was now pleased with the way sessions were going- it just felt like one more abuse, one more time when I gave in on getting my needs met and carried it when I didn't feel capable. It lost it's power to affect me, I had already "died," in some sense.

One thing you don't need to be left with is the notion that therapy failing is entirely your fault. It takes two to make any relationship therapeutic or otherwise work or fail, it is never one-sided. But I do beleive that it is a therapeutic decision that your T is making, to ask you to be the one to take the first step. It is very true that if you choose not to, she will let the relationship die, MTF. Right or wrong of her, therapeutically- I have no idea, I'm no shrink. But she is leaving the responsibility with you, and you can't make her stop doing that, because she won't- since she really believes that this is in your best interest- most likely.

This really strikes me hard, BB. It is true, I think, that my T *will* let the relationship die if I don't do what she thinks is my part in this. And you are right to ask how do we know it is safe? I don't feel it is safe to try to bridge that divide. I don't know where that comes from exactly. I don't know if it's my T's past reactions to me, or if it comes from childhood stuff. I have tried to get answers and reactions from her, to get her perspective, point of view, feelings, ideas, etc., and have failed on many occasions to get *anything* that I needed from her for the huge effort I feel I have put into it. It is ever and always frustrating, to say the least.

I'm sorry for where you are at, BB. It is so distressing to put so much into a 'relationship' that is supposed to be therapeutic only to come out of it more damaged and hurt than when you started. I'm still trying to sort out for myself if that is where I am at also. And how do you really *know* for sure? It's a VERY difficult decision. ((((Beebs))))


MTF

BB,

quote:

The pileup, and especially with infrequent session, got to be too much backlog to be able to deal with in a one hour session every so often.

Yes, this is huge. My T once said that I need to bring stuff up in session when it happens, not keep it all stuffed inside, that it gets to be too much to deal with, and too hard for her I think, to go back to something that happened months ago when she sees *so many* people and can't remember everyone's everything, and the context of what she said it in, and all that. I can remember the details, but she can't. So important to do it in the moment. But having such spread out sessions makes it harder, I think.

quote:

It is a terrible thing a T does, when they create an intimate connection and sense of emotional closeness with us- and then fail to meet the responsibility that creating such a connection brings with it. It is abusive. They should not offer things to clients that they cannot fulfill. It is too painful when they take it away.

Agreed.

And no need to apologize, Beebs. Yes, I feel we have some real similarities in our T relationships, and it is indeed troubling and needs to be resolved. I think you made the right decision for yourself, even if it has been difficult and painful. I think I am avoiding the decision part, hoping that somehow I can work to fix things so that they don't fall apart, so that I can maintain this relationship with my T. Her offer of a post-therapy 'relationship' has really screwed with my head and made it impossible for me to let go of her, even if I come to the conclusion that she IS doing me harm, which I am afraid to really figure out. I don't want to lose her. And it's almost like I am willing to instead lose myself even further, just so I don't lose her. What a mess...

Hugs, BB!

MTF

quote:

It is true, I think, that my T *will* let the relationship die if I don't do what she thinks is my part in this. And you are right to ask how do we know it is safe? I don't feel it is safe to try to bridge that divide. I don't know where that comes from exactly. I don't know if it's my T's past reactions to me, or if it comes from childhood stuff. I have tried to get answers and reactions from her, to get her perspective, point of view, feelings, ideas, etc., and have failed on many occasions to get *anything* that I needed from her for the huge effort I feel I have put into it.

Ouch, ouch, I am right with you. This is like "the bind" that AG's T talks about. That we have been taught that it is dangerous to move closer, and now we are being asked to bridge that divide and move closer, and as AG says our "amalgyda is screaming to run away." There is a huge problem in this for you, and for me, and for anyone who has a questionable T. It is this: it might really be unsafe to move closer. it might really be a very dangerous thing to do. That is a HUGE problem. In order to learn that it is ok to move closer, it has to actually *be* safe to move closer. Something is clearly telling you that it is not safe, from my perspective. Have you been *consistently* met and soothed by her, every single time when you moved closer? Or has she at least apologized for times (that should be very rare) when she did not meet and soothe you when you reached out just because you needed just to feel better and be told that you are ok? Has she shamed you in any way for needing that connection, just to be soothed by her? Has she shamed you for the fact that those connection points will inevitably cause more dependency for awhile? It's like Jones said on my thread, about *partial* reinforcemnt causing more and deeper and anxious dependency. If you get cheese *every time* you go to her, you will learn that it is safe to go to her when you need cheese, as Jones said in my thread. If you only get cheese once in awhile, then you will get horribly, anxiously addicted to her. It is awful. She either needs to break this cycle or you need to walk away.

quote:

Her offer of a post-therapy 'relationship' has really screwed with my head and made it impossible for me to let go of her, even if I come to the conclusion that she IS doing me harm, which I am afraid to really figure out. I don't want to lose her. And it's almost like I am willing to instead lose myself even further, just so I don't lose her. What a mess...

MTF, I also got to this point. The point that I was willing to stay even if the relationship *was* harmful to me. Now I'm left feeling so, so toxic and unreachable, unhelpable. I really don't want to see this happen to you. You do not deserve it! You are a good person who is working so hard and trying so hard. You really aren't so bad and so wrong at this, you know? You are working hard, you are doing everything you can. You have to take the reins here. My T never offered a post-therapy relationship, MTF, but he did use the word love, and there were times he fostered a deep sense of emotional closeness and intimacy with me, that was euphoric. I was so severely depressed- I was limp. He really had power over me. That closeness played off of the huge power differential between us, and I think he *got* something from that, whether consciously or unconsciously. I think that was a huge mistake. I even begged him not to be so kind and loving to me, and he told me it was my inability to accept closeness, and my inability to depend- and that I had to let his care in and learn to depend on him in order to heal. So I did. And I feel deeply in love, or infatuation, or whatever you want to call it. I just saw this person who was so beautiful and had so much raw power over me and I got so carried away with it. It struck me dumb. I wanted him to be completely trustworthy. I wanted to just rest in his arms. It became very, very confusing to me. It was absolutely crazy-making. I think there are some of us who need an extremely tight boundary in the relationship, and strong sense of what we can and can't do in that relationship. Without it we flounder. The *T* is the one who creates the emotional boundary. You simply are not capable of doing that in the realtionship because of the power differential. The T is the one who *creates the mood* of therapy. Not you. You are not responsible for that. Then, in the context of that firmly boundaried (I'm talking emotional boundary at this point) relationship we feel safe enough to allow their care. As I said before- in order to unlearn that past defense, it has to actually *be* safe to move closer.

I'm sorry for still more edits and more war and peace. I just really, really feel for you because I know the pain you are in.

BB,

It's funny that at the end you talk about emotional boundaries and how some of us need tight emotional boundaries. I think that is where things got so mixed up. After my third session as we were exiting my T's office she put her arm around me (it had been a bad session and I had cried a lot about past stuff) and said, "It's going to be okay, MTF. Things are going to get better, I promise." I think that was the start of my emotional attachment to her. She crossed an emotional boundary for me by putting her arm around me and *promising* something she really could not/should not have held out to me.

She has also said (when I was 'leaving' her a few months ago) that I have to be in charge of my boundaries, that only I know what is okay for me. This kind of came out of nowhere, and I wonder if she realizes that it is her blurry emotional boundaries that I struggle with. Sometimes I think she has no clue that she has poor emotional boundaries. And maybe with most of her clients she doesn't have problems with boundaries. I feel like we've had some sort of *unusual* connection that has caused her to get a bit loose emotionally with me. Sometimes she really pulls back on the reins, like last session when she had to tell me she thought she was "in the way" of my therapy and that she needed "to get the hell out of the way". I know that was hard for her, because at the end after I had told her I was willing to go back to the schema therapy and try to keep working with her, she seemed so relieved and was back to her usual friendly self. She put on her 'tough' act in the beginning of the session because the therapist in her knows that something isn't right, but I don't know that she can see the forest for the trees, or however that saying goes. I wonder sometimes if she is a little enmeshed with me. Then she acts like she's got it all together and I am confused. I vascillate between whether it's me or her, or both of us that are causing the pain and confusion. It's so frustrating.

quote:

Have you been *consistently* met and soothed by her, every single time when you moved closer? Or has she at least apologized for times (that should be very rare) when she did not meet and soothe you when you needed just to feel better and be told that you are ok?

For the most part, YES. But since I told her when I was 'ending' with her in February that I was confused by all of her offers that felt more like friendship than therapy, she has been more distant emotionally. She knows her way with me has really messed with my head because of what my heart wants, and what I *think* she is offering. She has changed her style with me a bit so as not to create more confusion, although I am still sometimes confused. Now whether that is her or me I do not know.

quote:

Now I'm left feeling so, so toxic and unreachable, unhelpable. I really don't want to see this happen to you. You do not deserve it! You are a good person who is working so hard and trying so hard. You really aren't so bad and so wrong at this, you know? You are working hard, you are doing everything you can. You have to take the reins here.

I'm sorry you are left feeling "toxic". You are not, BB. All of the stuff you wrote following the toxic part applies to you as well, you know! It is incredibly sad that these things can sometimes go so wrong. It makes me sorry sometimes that I even entered therapy. And I wonder what I am doing wrong, and why isn't it working, and what can I do to fix it? Sometimes I also wonder if it is really what my T is doing wrong, or what can she do to fix it? But I don't really *know*, and that is the painful dilemma.

quote:

And I feel deeply in love, or infatuation, or whatever you want to call it. I just saw this person who was so beautiful and had so much raw power and I got so carried away with it. It struck me dumb. It became very confusing to me. It was absolutely crazy-making.I think there are some of us who need an extremely tight boundary in the relationship, and strong sense of what we can and can't do in that relationship. Without it we flounder. The *T8 is the one who creates the emotional boundary. The T is the one who *creates the mood* of therapy. Not you. You are not responsible for that. Then, in the context of that firmly boundaried (I'm talking emotional boundary at this point) relationship we feel safe enough to allow the care. As I said before- in order to unlearn that past defense, it has to actually *be* safe to move closer.

That part in red above is SO TRUE. I think that for those of us that need that so badly, if we come into relationship with someone that doesn't have those tight boundaries, we are drawn to them because our caregivers didn't have good boundaries either, and we feel a sort of familiarity from those people because of our past and what we are accustomed to. I am speaking for myself here, but think it could be true for a lot of us. When I look at all of my previous attachments, none of those people had good boundaries, either.

Thanks, Beebs. It is helpful for me to really look at all of this and sort of process some stuff here that I can't really do alone.

Hugs,
MTF

quote:

Has she shamed you in any way for needing that connection, just to be soothed by her? Has she shamed you for the fact that those connection points will inevitably cause more dependency for awhile? It's like Jones said on my thread, about *partial* reinforcemnt causing more and deeper and anxious dependency. If you get cheese *every time* you go to her, you will learn that it is safe to go to her when you need cheese, as Jones said in my thread. If you only get cheese once in awhile, then you will get horribly, anxiously addicted to her. It is awful. She either needs to break this cycle or you need to walk away.

Honestly I think I can say "No", she hasn't shamed me. I don't know that she fully understands the *need* for that connection, though. That is where I feel shame. Like I am too much, need too much, want too much. I even wrote that in the list of comparisons we were talking about the last two sessions, but as usual, she didn't clarify with me whether I *am* or *am not* too needy, etc. That's where I end up believing I must be, because she never says anything to clarify it for me. I am starting to see that the biggest problem is that I am always left to figure it out (or really, just *assume* that I am right) because she doesn't help me out with it and help me feel like I have some resolution or answers to what is bothering me.

quote:

The *T* is the one who creates the emotional boundary. You simply are not capable of doing that in the realtionship because of the power differential. The T is the one who *creates the mood* of therapy. Not you. You are not responsible for that.

The thing with that (and I agree with you here 100%, btw) is that my T keeps telling me that it is so not good for me to be putting her above myself. That I put her on a pedestal and think she has all this power. She tells me that we are equals, that we are working in this therapy together, that it is an alliance, not that she has all the power. So she wants me to drop the idea that she has all this power. I see the value in that, but I wonder is she really understands her position in the therapy. I don't know. I need to bring this up with her and talk it out. I'm getting lots of 'therapy fodder' here that I need to throw out there with her next session. I'm going to make myself a good long list of stuff, because until it all gets put out there and talked about, I'm going to just stay stuck in this quicksand of sorts, being sucked down deeper and deeper.

MTF

It's helpful for me too. there is something really important that I want to say, and I think it applies to me too. It's this. It is possible that the "soothing" and "feeling ok" that you got from her when you dared to move closer, felt really really good because it was an enmeshed kind of thingy. Like you were giving *her* emotional satisfaction when you moved closer, too? I'm not talking about emotional satisfaction that she *should* have, for like- a job well done. She *should* feel good that she was able to help and sooth you, and when we reach out to our T's in this way and allow them to help, we do something good for them, too. But they need to allow those feeling in them in a very detached manner, a manner where getting those feelings isn't important to them, but they accept them if they get them. I'm talking about emotional satisfaction of a different variety, that would not be good for you and that would be crossing that emotional boundary that we are talking about. She should not need you to respond or do anything at all in order to feel good about herself and the job she does. If she needs you to feel good and ok and like she's doing great- that is a very big problem. I really am beginning to believe that the T *should* feel very separate from us at all times. That when therapy dips into the T giving us euphoric feelings, *they* have crossed a boundary that they are not meant to. So when you went for soothing, it should have felt like a calm gentle, relieving thing, and "I'm ok. It's ok. My stronger, wiser other thinks I am ok and good. Our relationship is stable and ok, in spite of my fear that it was not. I feel better now. I can move on." It should *not* have felt like "I'm special to my T. I really mean something to her! I matter so much to her. Clearly I rock her world. I'm sooooooo happy!" The former is healing. (But less euphoric and more painful in ways) The latter is enmeshment, (in some situations) because it gives hope where none exists. Having once experienced that euphoria that you may have felt in your T, too- it will be *very* difficult to return to a stable relationship where your needs get consistently met in a calm, gentle and stable fashion, (and in a fashion where you really have no false hopes to confuse your process-) because you will still be looking for and expecting that other, intoxicating thing, that *feels* so much better, but in the end is a reenactment? Just thoughts...tell me what you think.

quote:

She has changed her style with me a bit so as not to create more confusion, although I am still sometimes confused. Now whether that is her or me I do not know.

If she is moving around to suit you, it will only confuse you more. If she is not what you need, than she should stay still so that you can keep learning who she is and if she has what you need. If she keeps changing her style to suit you, and keep you with her- than you will not be able to figure that out. It is just more of the intoxicating "she wants me" that you do not need. She's right. She needs to get out of the way.
It's not about it being her fault or your fault..Like others have told me, yourself included, it's just the way it happened. It feels so good to blame either T or you, for what is going wrong, doesn't it? Because it gives us the illusion of control over it, that it could still be fixed if somebody will just *change* or both people will just change. But the reality (painful trigger ahead, MTF, read with caution) is that most T's are not willing to work on a relationship with a client to the extent that would be needed to fix it. It would take a lot more time and effort than 50 minutes every two weeks, to fix this, that is the reality. And- she would have to pour herself into making the necessary changes, getting supervision on your case regularly over a period of time, and communicating clearly with you about the changes she is making, setting new boundaries for your benefit (and hers) and telling you about them, and then not moving them ever again. And all of that would take a couple years to sort out probably, and you would be paying for this, which wouldn't really be that fair, and- it could all be potentially very healing, and I know it is what you are ultimately hoping for. Unfortunately, it is not common for T's to be *that* committed, I don't think. I know mine wasn't. It's not a marriage, after all. In the end they aren't heros...just people doing a job, sometimes herocially, and other times, not so much.

again...I'm not saying that it's completely impossible. But I definitely think it is impossible without regular (at least) weekly sessions and frequent checking in on the status of the therapy relationship with her, and a *lot* of very open and honest communication between the two of you. Then after all that- you might be able to work towards meeting some or your personal goals. The ones you went into therapy to get her help with to begin with.

Any thoughts? Am I totally off base- I really might be, I know that.

hugs, MTF

quote:

There is a huge problem in this for you, and for me, and for anyone who has a questionable T. It is this: it might really be unsafe to move closer. it might really be a very dangerous thing to do. That is a HUGE problem. In order to learn that it is ok to move closer, it has to actually *be* safe to move closer. Something is clearly telling you that it is not safe, from my perspective. Have you been *consistently* met and soothed by her, every single time when you moved closer? Or has she at least apologized for times (that should be very rare) when she did not meet and soothe you when you needed just to feel better and be told that you are ok?

Hi Beebs and MTF... well, I'm the last person to advise leaving a T. I stayed until my T abandoned me in an abrupt and traumatic way. I am still suffering the effects of that trauma. I still cry for missing my oldT and I'm still horribly confused as to what happened to us. I know my current T and I have analyzed the whole situation (probably more times than he would have liked... poor guy's head is probably ready to explode) but BUT... I won't accept any explanation unless oldT gives it to me himself. I guess I need to hear him say that he hates me, that he hated each moment of being my therapist and he could no longer stand it and banished me.

What I do want to point out from what I learned from my current T is what I quoted above. He is teaching me that there are times when things seem scary but they are not dangerous. Then there are times when things seem scary and ARE dangerous. We need to learn to recognize the differences. This is what my T is teaching me now so that I can protect myself going forward. He tells me that I KNEW there were problems and I knew my oldT was dangerous but I did not trust my own instincts enough to just walk away and yes he understands the part attachment plays but he also tells me that you cannot have a healthy attachment relationship with a person who will not allow the attachment. BOTH parties have to be willing to allow the attachment to grow and develop.

And so... while we are learning to move closer to someone to get our needs met and to form healthy dependency and attachment we first have to be aware of whether this person is safe enough to do this with. In a perfect world we should be sure that a T can handle this because of their knowledge, training and expertise but that is not always the case in real life. How can we spot someone who is not safe? You need to ask some questions of yourself. Are they consistent? Are they reliable? Do they keep firm, yet fair boundaries? Do they want to be your T or your friend? Do they lie? Do they work within the therapeutic frame... by this I mean regular appointments, keeping to the therapuetic hour, giving you their full attention when you are with them (not making or taking lots of calls or walking out of session to talk to someone) do they keep your "space" sacred and private? I'm not saying you should have Tuesday at 1 every week (although that would be good) I'm saying that I believe therapy works best when there is a rhythm to it and a time that is yours and you can depend on. I firmly believe that, especially in the beginning of a relationship, weekly sessions are really important and unless you cannot afford it I don't know why it should not be offered to you before you even begin the relationship. Lastly, do you feel better when you leave the session? Do you feel or see progress? Are you ever happy, feeling safe and connected after a session? Do you ever leave with a really warm feeling? Do people ever comment on the change they see in you? If you **never** feel good after a session then I would recommend you discuss this with your T because while therapy is damn hard, there are times when it does feel really good. Like they are really there for you, that they get you and your issues and that it's safe to relax into their care.

I do have a question.... MTF and Beebs and others reading here... did your T have you read and sign an Informed Consent Form which lays out exactly how they practice and what your rights are in treatment with them?? If they did not have you read and sign this along with HIPAA forms then they are practicing substandard care at the get go. My oldT never had me sign these forms yet ALL of the Ts I have seen since him have given me this paperwork. This is another sign to watch for in being safe.

I'm not saying that if your T is not perfect in all of these areas they are a bad T. What I'm saying is if you add these things up and they are failing in each area then I would say this is a sign you are not safe and could be hurt. I learned it is NOT what they SAY but how they ACT and BEHAVE that tells you what you need to know.

I did not walk away from an unsafe T relationship even thought I had bad feelings. I tried SAVE us. I worked SO very hard and gave all I had to the relationship. But I should (and you should) not have to work to SAVE a therapeutic relationship. It should not be that hard to do therapy. If a T cannot find time in their schedule for you weekly or at least every 10 days or if they are fearful of attchment and you need to attach, if they don't respect your time, if they lie, if they violate boundaries, then it's time to walk away before you get hurt. I will keep writing about this and if it saves just ONE person from experiencing what I did, (either a member or a lurker) then it will be so worth the time and the risk of getting someone angry with me.

I hope I don't offend anyone but this is what I have learned from a good ethical T and what I learned through traumatic experience.

TN

I think for the most part that when I have received her care or soothing from her, it feels like it's okay. One time though, and this was after I 'went back' after 'ending' with her, I told her I came back because I realized I was running from the difficult things I really needed to stay and face. Then she said, "I'm glad you came back". It made me feel like I really *am* important to her, not just as a client, but as a person. And I could be doing this all myself in my own head; making more out of it than there really is because it's what *I want* from her and not what really exists. When I told her about all her offers/things she had said/done and how they had caused me so much confusion about our relationship, she told me there was no intent in the things she offered, that "it is what it is". She was sorry she had caused me confusion, basically. But she was surprised that I felt unsafe about her offer of a post-therapy relationship, like it was something she thought I had wanted and it was mind boggling to her that I was basically telling her that was not was I was looking for.

As far as her moving around and changing her style to suit me, I don't that she's really doing that so much. I've just noticed that she's more careful to not say anything that might give me the impression that I am 'special' to her, although she did make that friend comment last session. Perhaps I need to ask her about that. She tells me on the one hand that a personal relationship would be unethical (which I told her I know), and then the next session tells me she is worried about doing what's best for me, not just as my T, but as a friend too. I honestly don't think she understands how these 'simple' things (for some people) are really *big* things for people like me. Who am I to her? Are we 'friends', or are we therapist and client? Or does she think we can somehow be both at the same time? Sometimes I just want to slap her upside the head and say, "T!!! What are you doing? Why are you messing with my head and heart like this? Don't you understand that this HURTS LIKE HELL???!!" But for some reason, I can never really verbalize my feelings about all of this. I can't even make myself say the words, or even talk about her offer of 'friendship' after therapy. I only mustered the courage because I was 'leaving' and figured it was better late than never and that she needed to know what a big deal that was for me. But to talk openly about it scares me stupid. To really dig into the feelings that something like that invokes in me is terrifying. I don't know if I'm afraid of her reaction, but that is what I feel I am afraid of. That I might hear that yes, she cares about me more than she should as my therapist, or no, she doesn't. Either way I feel I couldn't handle her answer. Stupid, isn't it? I want to know, but I don't at the same time. And I *know* that this conversation absolutely HAS TO HAPPEN, or I'll continue to go nowhere but right where I am. STUCK!

You are right that it would take a lot of commitment from my T to really go back and work through all of this old stuff with me, and seek supervision/consultation, make boundary changes and discuss them with me, then actually hold them, etc. I think my T is really stubbornly independent and doesn't do that sort of thing anyway. She once said her co-workers had never seen her cry (telling me about an experience where she DID cry in front of them that week because of a bad situation with a patient). She tries to be 'tough'. I think it's one of her 'faults', actually. But that's another issue. I think she wants to feel like she has all the answers, although she also admits openly that she doesn't have them. What I'm saying is I think she is too proud to seek consultation/supervision about my case, although that is a snap judgment I should likely not be making. I don't know. What you said about all of the difficulty of ironing things out is true, BB. Maybe that's why she keeps approaching it with a "Let's start over" attitude. She knows it would take WAY too much effort to go backward into things and really look at it all, as there is so much muck in the pond to really be able to see through it clearly.

quote:

I'm not saying that it's completely impossible. But I definitely think it is impossible without regular (at least) weekly sessions and frequent checking in on the status of the therapy relationship with her, and a *lot* of very open and honest communication between the two of you. Then after all that- you might be able to work towards meeting some or your personal goals. The ones you went into therapy to get her help with to begin with.

I agree here. My T is definitely pushing for total honest and open communication from me. She always has. I just have not been able to give her what she thinks I need to give, and I'm seeing a lot of things that need to be put out there still. A LOT. Rather than working on what I went to therapy for in the first place, I have spent the last 18 months sidetracked by this attachment crap. It's so frustrating. I know you can relate.

I think I "cross-posted" with some of your posts...sorry it took awhile to actually finish the post!

I'll go back and read your posts now MTF and Beebs.

I do want to add here that I'm very sorry for the anguish and fear and sadness that both of your T's are subjecting you to. You are both so bright and insightful you deserve good Ts that can appreciate and value what you bring into the session.

Hugs
TN

TN,

Thanks for your input here. It is valuable and I appreciate it. As I look at your questions to ask myself about my T I see that she isn't really doing anything questionable in those regards. I just don't know what is really going on between us. I don't know what is real, and what is just crap in my head. I even wrote that same thing in the journal entry she read out loud to me last session, but she never stops to discuss these things. I think that is what is really bugging me. We don't talk about the issues I raise. I don't know why, either. I don't know if I need to come with a list of things to talk about specifically rather than putting them in a letter, or what. It's just to the point where I am tired of everything being overlooked unless I specifically say, "I feel like you always sidestep everything I try to bring up." Maybe I should just say that. I sort of did in the comparison's list between her and my PT last session. She read that part and said, "Shame on me." Then I said I feel like I express things in writing that don't get talked about and she says, "That's because you said you didn't want to talk about them." Huh?!!! There's a reason I took the time to put it down on paper, and it wasn't to avoid it. I just couldn't SAY it face-to-face.

I don't know. I feel like I need at least an entire day with her to sort through all this, and even then it would still be up in the air, I'm sure. So exasperating. I'm sure it's more me than my T, but at the same time I know it's both of us. I just don't know how to build the bridge from me to T so she can really 'get' me. I want her to, and I know you keep saying that I shouldn't have to work so hard in therapy, but part of me feels like this really is my task. To get to where I can be assertive and tell the other person what I need from them, and what I am feeling about our relationship, what's not working, what is, etc. I just can't seem to do it, not even in therapy.

Thanks for your input TN. I don't think you make people mad for voicing your concern about this stuff. It's so important. This is life-changing or -breaking stuff we're dealing with sometimes, and it's not to be taken lightly (although I sometimes think I may be taking it WAY too seriously.)

((TN))

MTF

I've come back and read more, and there are so many things I want to respond more to, MTF, but my daughter is waiting for me right now. I just want to say one thing in the few minutes I have- and it is that if you wantthe therapy realtionship to work for you, you simply have to find a way to have *at least* weekly consistent sessions with her. There just isn't enough time, and not having enough time will only make you more and more anxious and less able to speak and prioritize your sessions, and (if you are like me) you will give up in despair and just hope and pray that your T will be able to make sense of it all, with her expertise and knowledge and lead the sessions where you need them to go, for the sake of using the very very limited time you have together to maximum effectiveness.. Which she won't do. Which is...failing you. Through her humanity and limitations, she is failing to meet your legitimate needs. And they are very real, very deep needs that are not being met, through her failure, busyness, lack of total commitment, and lack of understanding and time spent on your case. That's why you are in so much pain. I'm so sorry.

I also wanted to tell you that you are doing just what I did...analyzing your T instead of the other way around, trying to figure her out and get yourself somehow safe with her. She should be doing that work on you. It's what you pay her the big bucks for. I know how much this hurts. I know how *much* this hurts!!

I'll be back later.

BB

quote:

We don't talk about the issues I raise. I don't know why, either. I don't know if I need to come with a list of things to talk about specifically rather than putting them in a letter, or what. It's just to the point where I am tired of everything being overlooked unless I specifically say, "I feel like you always sidestep everything I try to bring up." Maybe I should just say that. I sort of did in the comparison's list between her and my PT last session. She read that part and said, "Shame on me." Then I said I feel like I express things in writing that don't get talked about and she says, "That's because you said you didn't want to talk about them." Huh?!!! There's a reason I took the time to put it down on paper, and it wasn't to avoid it. I just couldn't SAY it face-to-face.

MTF, I can really relate to this. OldT would do his best to avoid the things I needed to address and he was masterful at diverting my attention from certain topics and by the time I realized it the session was over and I would be so upset that I had to wait another week to address this stuff or get some answers. It would make me so crazy.

I remember trying to talk to him about my transference issues (before I understood attachment) and he just started talking about real estate, his office building and even wine tastings! Another time I needed to address some abuse issues and he ended up spending the session doing a book review on a book he lent me on abuse. He would only speak about this on an impersonal level.... like debating the merits of what the author wrote and believed etc instead of how I felt about my own situation and how I needed to integrate it.

Another time I was upset about some personal issues and began to discuss my past and he told me "well I guess we can assume EVERYTHING has to do with your past"... duh... yeah.

I would even write in my journal....I wanted to talk about my past and T would not let me go there. I could feel his resistance. It was as if I was the T talking about a Patient's resistance to certain topics. I was willing to go but he would not come with me. I think you may be experiencing some of this with your T. She wants to go where her comfort level is (schema therapy...CBT therapy) and not whereyou want to go... the relationship, boundaries, attachment etc. It definitely makes for unsatisfying sessions.

I also understand the need to build that bridge. Part of what kept me from realizing the danger signals or red flags was that I believed I was supposed to be doing this stuff. Telling him what I needed (which ended up with me teaching him about psychotherapy), trying to prove I was learning to ask for what I needed (except he so begrudingly gave me some of what i needed it only reinforced that is was wrong and scary to ask) and to help him understand where I was. And so I thought by doing all the work I was doing what I was supposed to. And yes, patients should participate in their therapy and work hard, but sometimes we just don't make any progress because we are fighting too big a battle with no help from T because this is just not their thing. My oldT was NOT a psychotherapist (athougth he'd like to believe that and he WAS a PhD) but he was really just a counselor or coach type person with little experience in relationships and in doing deep psychotherapy.

I know this is a confusing time for you MTF. Maybe I missed this but have you ever done a consultant T to get some clarity on your situation? Maybe that would help you. I really wish I had done this before the final blow up.

Take care,
TN

I think bringing this up has maybe been a bad idea. Now my head is totally spinning and I don't even know if my sleep med. will knock me out tonight. I am so angry at my T right now. And I don't even know if my anger is legitimate/justified or not, or if I'm just getting my panties in a bunch because I've put this stuff out here and had to look at my relationship mess from a different angle (one that maybe I wasn't quite prepared to see it from). I'm feeling this tightness in my chest and all of this anger coming up and I've gotten really worked up now. I don't like to feel this out of control. I think I had better just delete my posts because this isn't really helpful to anyone. I'm sorry I started down this path on here. Thanks ladies for trying to help me sort through this. I think I need to stay away from here for awhile. Maybe my T was right to tell me she thought it wasn't good for me to come here. Now I've created a bigger mess for myself and don't know how to get out of it. I'm sorry...

MTF

I really do understand how you are feeling, MTF. I've had the same confusing conversation a million times with myself. Is this forum right, or is my T right? (My T never knew about this forum, but I am pretty sure that if he did, he would have said the same thing as your T said)

In the end only you can decide what you believe and what is the best for you and we all respect that and will not be hurt or angry if you need to leave or delete, or just take another break from here, or whatever you need to do- although you would be missed. I have complete faith that in time you are going to figure this mess out, and do what is the best for you one way or another. I'm real sorry I came on too strong, I never meant to contribute to your distress, I honestly thought I was helping- I really understand the spinning and the information overload, and how crazy-making that place can be, so I am so sorry if I put too much on you. (((((MTF)))) Just let me know if it would help you, and I will delete my comments if you need me to.

hugs,

BB

BB,

What you said did not trigger me. This whole mess I'm in is what's triggering me, and the fact that I feel like I am where I was 4 months ago when I went for a consult with another T and started getting angry with my T. I was in so much pain and turmoil about what to do that it got to be too much. I tried to leave her but couldn't. I hate this attachment and the intense pain it creates. I'm tired of feeling chained down to this relationship and that everything in my life is influenced by the attachment. I feel non-functional, like I have let almost 2 years of my life slip by me while I've done nothing but worry about a relationship that isn't even 'real'. It makes me sad and angry. My 3 kids have a shell of a mother, my H has no 'wife', just a roommate, and I have lost most of my desire to make friends in our new neighborhood, I don't like to interact with people anymore, life is just too overwhelming. I know I need to make a decision, and that is what is causing me so much distress. I don't know the 'right' thing to do.

This thread has given me a lot to think about, and last night I just got so full of anger that it was frightening me. I felt like I was going to have a panic attack because I was so stressed physically by the feelings that were welling up inside of me. I wish I could have a candid, honest, open conversation with my T and really get to the bottom of all of this. I just freeze up in her presence and the words don't come out. I am beyond frustrated. I need to give myself the next two and a half weeks to sort this all out before I see my T next. I have to reach a resolution with her that actually satisifies my questions and doubts, because I am SO TIRED of living this way and worrying about things I can't solve on my own. I can't read her mind, and she can't read mine, so unless I talk I can just keep getting nowhere, and that is what is making me so crazy.

Thanks for all your input. It has helped me see things I wasn't seeing, and given me some more to think about. (((Beebs)))

MTF

((((MTF))))

I want to say that your last post is me exactly, I could have written every word. I had the same exact reaction to my T. My marriage was bad before T once in T, it got worse. Before T I looked pretty good, really, though I didn't think so- now I've gained a lot of weight and I look just greyish and I hate my appearance even more. My house was lcean before T...(ok, obsessively, but...) now it is a total mess. I am more distance from my kids than ever, which was my primary motivation for going to T, because I could see that my depression and inability to connect with them was really affecting them, and that they needed a mom. Now I'm just in pain all the time and try to find a way out of it, I feel very selfish. And I'm still drinking even more than I was. I've disconnected from friends and have a hard time leaving the house. What is this all about? And...I paid a *lot* of money to get to this place. My fault? His fault? I may never know. He's not a horrible T- not by a long shot, in fact he is well-respected and caring. I tend to think it's my fault, I just didn't work hard enough to change. It just hurts and for me it was time to stop. I thought stopping would make it better but it hasn't, so far. Another T, perhaps. yuck. I really resist that idea. I feel very stuck.

I sincerely hope that you are able to sort this out with your T and get your needs met, MTF, without having to bend and contort yourself into whatever she needs you to be. I hope and pray that you will have a more successful outcome to your therapy than I did. My only advice to you at this point is...whatever you are doing isn't working. Try something different- with her, or alone, or with a consult, or with both- whatever it is, but try something different.

Many many hugs, and again, I'm very sorry for stirring you up. I think it is positive that you can feel anger at your T...very positive. It might help to write out those angry feelings and share them with her. Her reaction to your anger with her may tell you alot and give you valuable information. I think it was when my T told me that my anger and cynicism was "very unpleasant" that I had more clarity that I had triggered something in him that made it too hard for him to help me, in spite of his protestations to the contrary. I'm sorry MTF for the confusion you are in, and for inevitably adding to it.

Love,

BB

MTF... I'm sorry if I added to your pain and confusion. Yes, attachment can be hellish when it is not accepted or understood by both parties. I realize that this is a very important and difficult decision you are dealing with. I had forgotten you consulted an other T and that stirred up a lot of confusion and dissatisfaction with your T. I'm sorry.

I just wanted to add some of my experience here. While I WAS in therapy with oldT I WAS getting better. I had better real life relationships. I was going out more socially. I felt more confident. I went back to school and was getting straight A's. My relationship with both my son and my dh improved. I became a much better parent and I was much much more in control of my anger. I was still struggling with some of my fears and mostly because we hadn't gotten to them yet or I was still fearful of confessing some of my phobias that embarrassed me. Family and friends were commenting on my positive changes. My house was clean and organized and I was planning some home rennovations.

In short, I was feeling so much better. I was feeling joyful at times. I was very definitely optimistic and hopeful. I had my T there for me and I felt that with him I could conquer whatever was holding me back from changing careers or being the best mom. Weirdly, in the last 3 or 4 months I was with my oldT I felt the best. I actually faced down having surgery. I saw the surgeon and set it all up just before he started telling me I should go.

This is why it was SO DAMN CONFUSING to me. I was getting better. I was making progress. WHY did he banish me and abandon me? Why did he send me away? My therapy had definite bumps to it but we always managed to repair (or so I thought) and I was learning so much. This is why I didn't leave him first. I just could not understand why I had to go when I was making progress. When I was feeling good the majority of the time. Then things got really rocky and it was as if HE was deliberately trying to ruin it or sabotoge it and destroy it.

I guess I'm telling you all this because if you are in therapy and it's such a struggle and it's not working and you are not making progress or feeling better or feel hopeful. If things are actually getting worse.... then those are really serious signs that you need to step back and try something/someone else. Therapy is hard and can be bumpy as the relationship gets worked out and understood and becomes more stable... but if this never happens then maybe it's because it's not the right fit. You should be leaving sessions feeling good at times and you should be able to see at least tiny progress in things.

Beebs and MTF... it sounds to me like the relationships you had/have with your T's is actually unhealthy and making you depressed. What you describe sounds like depression. I guess what I want to add here is that...

This is what happened to me AFTER I lost my T. I withdrew socially (still struggling w/this), my relationship with my dh suffers, I was a disconnected and uninterested mom for many many months, I was fearful, having panic attacks, sad and crying all the time, didn't want to get up in the mornings (I HAD to because of work but it was physically painful), and I could not focus to the point of almost losing my job. I lost interest in my house or how it looked, I would forget to pay the bills, I had no enthusiasm to go out at all. This is what happened when I lost my oldT. Some of this has improved after 10 months of twice per week therapy with my current T. I still struggle with allowing him into my heart and mind. There is still too much pain of abandonment there.

Walking away from a bad T situation gives you the power. You will suffer and it will be horribly painful and I won't downplay that at all... but it's much much worse when they banish you because then you have on top of everything else you are dealing with .. the absolutely painful, horrible feelings of rejection, abandonment and the trauma of being forced to leave and you are at that point silenced. You lose your voice.

I know how that felt and I would wish to spare anyone else that same experience.

I wish I could make things right and better for you MTF but I don't have that power. I can only offer support in whatever you decide to do. But please, do not panic over this. Take your time and do what feels the best for you.

Many hugs
TN

Hm what you wrote TN makes me think that the depression we are dealing with is because we never really had the support we needed from our T's in the first place, in spite of actually still being in therapy.

I think it's a possibility, Beebs. You were SO not getting your needs met, the relationship was causing enormous frustration and repressed anger (it was not really safe to express it)and in the end it caused hopelessness. This all *could* lead to depressive symptoms. Therapy supposed to do the opposite. You should feel better... at least s ome of the time.

When people speak of therapy as being tough and difficult they mean in the way that you are facing long buried feelings, you are looking at past trauma that is painful in the retelling...and that can be really hard and takes a lot of courage. BUT...while you do learn from the relationship, and in its disruption and repair, it's not supposed to cause so much unresolved angst. Your T reenacted a lot of your childhood issues with you.

I'm sorry you are struggling so much. What you wrote above made me really angry with your T.

Hugs
TN