ok- the whole poster i just wrote was deleted by mistake. Hate it when it happens..
so sorry, this must be the summary of what I just wrote.

Firstly: Iam glad this forum are honored with the collection of your posts

Could it be that you feel that way (More "open" and more tuned to your husband and your children) because you are in a way compensates for what you feel you do not receive from your therapist? (thats just my guess, cause i often experience that after unhelpful sessions)


I doubt that your therapist actually has two personalities, as you describe, but I understand that it can feel like that. I do the same destiction(?) myself sometimes. (i`ll also add cold to my list, when i feel left out with no help from my T) And to answer your q: I do not think your t do something with the intent to send you into these agonys and strugglings, I think unfortunately these feelings belong to the relationship and that these feelings aroused in us when our immediate needs arent covered.(love, attention, help, love-feelings etc.)

I would encourage you to talk to your T about all this, but great that you first use this board as a place to "practice" on the job. Sometimes it helps just to actually "see" the words, before expressing them out loud. Besides, it is just as well that you feel you can vent all this here first, perhaps its gets clearer for you too?

All the best to you bb. Let us know how you cope if you need to?

ps: And sorry for the short-version reply, i`m not a native so writing in english takes a lot of effort for me

Hi BB,
I imagine that must be extremely confusing and can understand why you would think it being cruel. A counselling relationship should be consistent. It seems that by him being dismissive with you allows you to access a part of you that is able to feel more in tune with your family but in such a state that you can’t show it to them due to your hurting inside. I too wonder if it could be because you feel you didn’t get what you needed from your T. I wouldn’t think that your T is doing this on purpose as I would deem that unprofessional not to have explained his reasons and I am sure he wouldn’t purposely have you feeling the way you do. I feel it is definitely worth talking through with him as he may not be aware of this and can help you to work through your reactions to his behaviour and be able to understand them.

This may not be the case with you but I know I have had sessions where I have felt my T to be really cold and distant with me and after looking back on it I realised that I was most likely in a place not to be able to accept what she was offering me therefore thinking it was her that didn‘t care.

I wish I could be more help because it sounds like a distressing and confusing place to be in.

Butterfly

Thanks for the replies. I wondered if this was just crazy-thinking on my part...he keeps saying that he wants me to be able to experience his closeness and care. I guess I'm just getting triggered badly by certain things that seem innocuous in themselves. I don't know what is happening to me. Maybe I'm making up that he's doing it on purpose to help me, because of some "deep caring and expertise"- just to alleviate some of the pain of his not caring "enough."

BB

Nice to meet you Butterfly...I love your name. My little girl loves butterflies...I was very happy when I saw Butterfly and Sparkle sign up on the boards at the same time. We need some butterflies and sparkles around here.

Thanks for your insight

Thank to you, too, Froggy, and for chiming in Blanket Girl...yes, I think some cookies and cream is in order. 'cept I find it hard to eat right now.

hugs, all around,

BB

blackbird

I'm glad we are "stuck" w/ you! you are one of the many who this is a great place to work out thoughts! (p.s. no groaning here. maybe it is hard to believe, but this is actually a really good topic! )


I'm not a great with T's... so I don't have much input on if your he is being kind and then cruel - gosh, even just feeling that he is being that way has got to be hard. Maybe he's not being cruel, maybe he does care and it is just really hard to receive.

but your reaction to him, or what you feel like he's doing - being kind then cruel, your reaction, it kinda seems to make sense to me...

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
In fact when he is like that I usually spend the day in a weird kind of "open" for lack of a better word, state, during which I can't stop weeping, but though the tears won't stop, I feel very much more in tune with my kids and my surroundings, and more sure of myself and what I have to do. (Except, for obvious reasons, I can't see people, or answer the phone, and I have to somewhat hide from my kids because of my extreme emotional state, unless I am able to stop crying for while) But it's strange, in that I feel in love with my kids, and more well-disposed to my husband, and able to accomplish tasks that need doing. Everything gets more peaceful and "right" feeling, although I am without exaggeration, in agony. However I prefer this agony, to the complete disinterest, fog,confusion and misery/agony of the depression I function almost constantly in. Does anyone have any idea what is happening to me here? Is this something my T could be doing on purpose?
BeeBee

do I understand right that you feel like you ahve more of that "right" feeling with others when you feel like your T is being possibly curel or mean to you? that actually kinda makes sense... I mean, if you have past events where that happened, where people were cruel to you, and now you have a T, who is being different, by being kind and caring... well, it would make sense to feel out of sync with life. Just some thoughts, I'm probably totally missing the mark, and if so - please just ingore me. When abuse happens, sometimes we try to make sense of it or gain control by thinking/feeling, on some level, that it's our fault, it was "right." So when you feel like your T is cruel... it makes sense you would have that right feeling, and feel more sure of yourself... or maybe I'm totally off. (probably)

I hope it gets easier and more clear for you and that you feel better soon. (and that you get to enjoy some good ice cream! I think I will join you.)

- jane

Thank you Froggy JD, and everyone else too, (did I say that) in spite of your difficult in english, broken wrists and own problems, and so on... to try and help me, your kindness is appreciated very much.

Thank you JD, I will think on your reply, too...I am confused and scared. I wnat my T, only, wierd, that he hurts me, doesn't mean to- and I still want him so badly to comfort me, wish to feel his care so badly??? What is my problem?

BB

Nice to meet you too BB! I'm glad you like my name, I think that butterflies are beautiful creatures that reperesent freedom. They also seem to have a very calming presence.

I don't think you have a problem at all, I think it is only natural to want to feel cared for by your T as they are someone that you share the inner depths of yourself with making you feel vulnerable and in need of some comfort. I do hope you will be able to discuss this with him and let him know that sometimes you feel hurt by the way he is.

Butterfly

thank you, Butterfly... I love them too. (Absolutely detest those butterfly collections some people keep, though)

But I have told him how he hurts me. He says I am angry with him. It is my fault. He only feels care for me, wants to help and so on. Maybe I'm blocking his care somehow. He feels so....sinister, yesterday. If it's me, than what am I doing wrong? I have to talk, ask for what I need he says. But I can't when he feels...that way. It was nice to have the feelings come back online for a little while, though, even though painful ones...better than nothing, I guess.
I hope you are well.

BB

((BB))

I want you to know I'm thinking of you and I can imagine how painful it is to feel like your T changes personality. I don't have good advice but I hope your T didn't really say it was your fault you were angry. I think it takes two to communicate. At the very least I think he could have communicated better. My T has never blamed me for my feelings. He has said that he could imagine/understand my feelings even though he did not mean for me to think he was frustrated or angry at me.

I hope you can talk to him and have him hear you completely.

(((Blackbird)))

quote:

I wnat my T, only, wierd, that he hurts me, doesn't mean to- and I still want him so badly to comfort me, wish to feel his care so badly??? What is my problem?

oh, I was just thinking about my ex-T last week. She was doing something very hurtful, and I just wanted her to stop... and at the same time... I wanted her. I wanted her to be my T again and be kind... (I'm not saying your T should be your ex-T) I just get it. It's not weird at all. Wanting our Ts, who are able to be kind, to keep being kind and not do things that hurt (even things that hurt accidentially and unintentionally) that's just normal! Do you feel like you should be feeling something different? like maybe you should feel more ok? or that you should want your T less?

One time, a friend used the phrase that feeling warm makes the cold hurt all the more. That feeling someone be kind, makes unkindness hurt even more. I think being hurt, can draw out our longing for kindness. Being cold (hurt) can draw out how much we need warmth and long for it...

I dunno. I don't get how it all works. I just know my heart goes out you! many many hugs.

thinking of you and hoping it goes better and that you get a chance to talk to your T about it. It doesn't really seem so weird at all.

(p.s. No matter what, don't think too hard on any of my input! it's pretty scattered.)

Oh BB, it is not your fault the way you feel. Only you know how you feel, he shouldn't be telling you it is because you are angry. Maybe you are but it is not his place to tell you. Its good he says he cares and wants to help but it sounds like he isn't communicating that to you too well. I am sure you are not doing anything wrong and I hope it is something that you will be able to bring up again so you can work on it.

I know what its like to feel a barrier within the relationship and it can be very painful. Am thinking of you and I really hope this works out for you.

Butterfly

Hi BB,
OK, first, you're not posting too much!! We're all here for exactly this, so we have somewhere to go with this stuff when we're confused and need support. And you are always providing support for everyone else. Stop being so selfish and give us a chance to give to you.

I'm getting these half-formed impressions from what you're saying that I can't quite pin down. So I'm going to offer my observations while being very up front that I could be WAY OFF here. It's just that some of the feelings you're describing are resonating, so what I'm going to say is really about my experience and may not be about yours.

So many of the feelings you are describing sound like memories of feelings. I believe that consistency is really important in a T but I know that sometimes I could see my T as behaving so differently only to realize it arose from my own fears, or memories of the inconsistancies of my parents. Part of what makes this work so hard is that if you trust too far, then he could be really flipping around and not always being consistent which makes healing very difficult. On the other hand, if you're seeing something that isn't there, an important part of therapy is to work through those feelings enough to understand they're not true here and now. And here's the worst part, you have to trust yourself and most of us don't have good track records with that in our experiences.

quote:

unhelpful...even almost as if he would use me and throw me away for his own gratification of ego, or something weird like that I can't figure out- why it feels like that. Which for some reason, probably past triggery stuff, feels *extremely* cruel to me. unhelpful...even almost as if he would use me and throw me away for his own gratification of ego, or something weird like that I can't figure out- why it feels like that. Which for some reason, probably past triggery stuff, feels *extremely* cruel to me.

This was the first thing that really resonated with me. You're description of him as cool, detached, dismissive and bordering on cruel, but especially that you would be thrown away, would perfectly describe my father at times and how I would feel about him. Leading up to abusing me he could be warm and caring and affection, often the only time I experienced that kind of care, but afterwards, it would feel like he turned into someone else, cruel and dismissive. So I am wondering if this behavior could describe anyone in your past?

You also talked about the "open" feeling when you have a detached week. I think there may be several trauma truths operating here. One is that trauma victims are more comfortable in a known situation even if it's more painful. We choose more painful over new. Which means that when you perceive him as more distant and dismissive it may be that on some level you're more comfortable and therefore able to be more present for your family. However, when you receive care and warmth, it's new and can feel dangerous so you shut down.

And one last thing, you may be working so hard on being shut down (I worked REALLY hard at not feeling my feelings) that it takes something really strong to break through. Being in pain and feeling rejected are, if you're anything like me, well worn deep neural pathways and therefore easy to run down. So in order to actually feel something it has to be both exceedingly strong and very familiar.

Again, BB, I could be so far off the map, I'm on the wrong continent, but I'm telling you in the help that it might help sort things through.

((((BB)))))

AG

BB

My head is not brilliant tonight, words are not coming very easily, so I can't think of anything wise and helpful to post. But I want to send you a big hug and know that I am thinking of you,

starfish

Oh, gosh, thank you all, so much. AG, especially you, today, of all days to take time to post to me. And all of you.

ooo, I just realized that I made it sound like as if he came right out and said, "it's your fault and it's because you are angry." hm, no it wasn't like that. My T would never say those words. He kept saying, "Maybe you are angry with me." or, "you sound like you are angry at me." but he would say, "I could be wrong, but maybe you are." But I felt, not really angry, just desperate and misunderstood. But I really, really heard it, sounding SO judgemental, and that our lack of connection was all my fault, because I wouldn't talk, was maybe, angry, and etc. He said, maybe you are angry at yourslef, and that's why you think I am angry at you, when I never have been." It was little things like, the only time he "perked up" and felt like he was really paying attention, was when I said I was thinking of quitting with my SD. He said something like: "wow, I am really surprised at that because you seemed to get so much more out of it from him than you do from me." that sounded...almost jealous, which is completely ridiculous. eeek, how misunderstood I felt in that moment. I just wanted to be able to talk, about the situation freely without having worry about his feelings. Yet, I simply can't believe that he is bringing his feelings into it. I just don't believe that. Even though I always hope for that, in some way, I also know he wouldn't, and it's probably because English is not his first language that he would put it that way. And when I admitted that when I was a kid, I wanted my parents to get angry at me. Rest of the time he just seemed so disinterested and detached and, himself, angry and aloof. Really, he seemed more businesslike, and detached, but that felt like a *punishment* I wish I could remember more specifics, what he said that really bothered. It's like I block it out. gosh, it gets so confusing and hard, knowing if this is good or bad for me? I'll respond more later, but I just wanted to clear that up, cause he would never say "it's all your fault for being angry."

Yes, AG, it is probably, stuff from the past. Well, my parents did neglect me, I guess, I can say, pretty badly, it is seeming like more and more lately. Then when I went to school, because of certain patterns and not being cared for physically, or in any other way, I was quite unusually singled out by the principal, and then of course the teachers. So I got all this "attention." Well, it was painful attention, but I remember, lately, how it felt, to be "cared about" in such a way...quite powerful almost relief...well it gets all mixed up, I guess, love and care in my mind. Oh, I just remembered, that when I admitted, that maybe I would like him to get angry, he was actually considering that out loud for some time, and then decided, "no, I don't think we can do it, because it wouldn't be genuine on my part, and you want the real stuff, is that right?" I said, ni I didn't think I wanted him to get angry at me, for real, that would be scary. But it seems strange that he would consider, hm, maybe I should get angry in the session with this client if she "wants" me to? What is that? I should probably tell T all this, yet, he has said in past that it is not in talking about the past I will find the healing, but "in the present moment." It's all things I need to talk over with him...but I can't talk because he *seems* so cool and distant or sinister and cruel and uncaring or *businesslike* gosh, well that one really gets me frozen in fear for some reason- and it is only, when he is at times kindness and compassion itself, I feel I can open up to him. Or, did my opening up come first? gee ist's so messy in my head, are his negative reactions real, or am I making them up? Ag you put it very well.

quote:

So many of the feelings you are describing sound like memories of feelings. I believe that consistency is really important in a T but I know that sometimes I could see my T as behaving so differently only to realize it arose from my own fears, or memories of the inconsistancies of my parents. Part of what makes this work so hard is that if you trust too far, then he could be really flipping around and not always being consistent which makes healing very difficult. On the other hand, if you're seeing something that isn't there, an important part of therapy is to work through those feelings enough to understand they're not true here and now. And here's the worst part, you have to trust yourself and most of us don't have good track records with that in our experiences.

He says I must write all these thoughts down in a journal and read it to him. I said I would have to censor it. He said, very kindly- "don't do that-just write out whatever comes to mind without censoring, and then read it to me next time." Then he said, very emphatically "I have NEVER said that you had to censor anything. I know that one for certain." eeek, I felt very scared, and I just hastily agreed with him, because that's true, he never did say that, for sure. But I never said that *he* made me feel I had to censor...I just said that *I* felt like I would have to censor what I wrote for him. I need to re-read your posts later on, and I will reply more. But mainly, I must find a way to overcome my fear and speak to my scary T.

Incognito, I forgot to say hello, and thank you for your kind sympathy, and response.

And JD, thank you and yes you are making sense, and helping...it just helps to get some input from you (and care) and have something to hold what I'm thinking up against, to see if it makes sense, and what doesn't...The main thing I guess is probably to copy this post and read it to my T. terrifying.

Starfishy, thanks you for your concern, but you have enough to think of now, please do not worry about me, sweetie.

I have to go back and reread, I'm kind of all over the place.

BB

BB,
I just wanted to offer my support. One of the things that bothers me the most is when people (T's included) are not consistent. I can handle if someone is an a..hole most of the time or if they are nice most of the time. My problem is when they change from day to day or minute to minute. One of my T's was the same way (I didn't stay to long with him). I never knew what it was going to be like. It drove me even more crazy.
Just from reading what AG wrote I'm thinking her father and my father are the same person or are twins. That loving parent one minute and that mean parent the next.
You have every right to feel the way you do and it is so confusing. I don't know how long you have been with your T or how often you talk online. You mentioned that English is not his first language. Could it be that you are not connecting with him because you are not in traditional therpy (meeting in person)? I'm just throwing things out there but it doesn't sound like he is doing it on purpose. Have you actually had a conversation with him about this change you are perceiving? I'm all over the place today but I did want to offer my support. Maybe some ice cream is in order tonight.

PG

Lots of ice cream over at AG's party, PG...all kinds of flavours, and you get to eat them!

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure, as AG pointed out, whether T is *really* being Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide, or if that is just my perception. I have no way of figuring it out, and it is driving me crazy. Hm, I think he did say something once about, having to sort of wean me off of him the way that an alchoholic needs to be weaned off the bottle...there are times when they just need a drink. He said that my slef-esteem is totally dependent on him being kind or smiling at me, so he has to do that from time to time...it was something like that. It was meant kindly, not really the way it sounds here in cold print. I might not be remembering it right. At the time it made perfect sense and increased my trust level in what he's trying to do for me, I do remember that.

feeling wobbly and shaky tonight. doing ok, in terms of functioning though, still. I emailed and told T that for whatever reason I was in a lot of pain emotionally , but that the depression seemed to lift and I could get things done, felt more peace in spite of the pain, and that I'd like another session after all. I haven't heard back from him, yet, and feeling terrified, just terrified. I have so much that I desperately need to say to him. And I want so badly to connect with him. He told me that more than anything he believes that I need to feel close, understood and cared about, and that he is trying to provide that. Did he mean it? PG, many times I have had a deep connection to my T over the phone and also over the computer...but most of the time it is not like that for me. I don't really think it is all because of the computer, although for sure that doesn't really help things. More of a hindrance than a major obstacle, as I see it. gosh, this is really awful, I am scared and feeling like I am bleeding to death, all while still functioning much better than usual on the outside...

PG, I'm sorry about the awful parenting. AG, too. I'm just starting to realize more fully, that mine weren't great shakes.

ugh. I think soon it will shut itself off and I'll prbably sink again. Hm, maybe that's better than this. not sure. I must be brave, said the marshmallow!

BB

Dear BB,

Gosh, I have so many thoughts about what is going on here. I agree with AG that it sounds like lots of memories of feelings are in play. Also, this does remind me a lot of how things felt with my last T. For me, though, I would come away feeling furious and misunderstood at something she had said, and I would think she sucked and was completely wrong, and it really hurt, but it did a few things for me. One is that it got me in touch with anger that I WAS feeling about situations (beyond T) and it gave the anger to me in a way that I eventually had to recognise.

This took her saying "You're angry at me.... you're angry at me..." a few times before I could either see it or admit it or really feel it. Before feeling the anger there was this deep woundedness (how could she get me so badly wrong? how could she think this of me? She doesn't know what she's doing! I can't be with her!) and switching off from the relationship. Once the feeling of anger (or maybe just the recognition of it) came online, and was validated by her (just by her recognising it too, and acting like it was okay) I had a lot more energy available to me - the energy to say 'NO, it's NOT like that!' and to my surprise, to find that she could then modify her ideas or approach, and my ideas could shift too.

Other times, even without the anger, her provocative comments liberated me somehow because just thinking through what she said or did allowed me to shift my ideas a bit, even if I disagreed - the process of thinking through the disagreement made me confront certain things - or it allowed me to feel *separate* from her and her ideas of me, which was somehow useful.

Sorry, I'm waffling a bit and I know that your situation is a bit different, but I hope there's something in this that is a little useful. Part of what I wanted to say is that in those conflict times I often had the idea that she was 'doing something to me' deliberately to provoke certain feelings in me. It was easier to think that than that she might be wrong/incompetent - because I really did equate wrong with incompetent with dangerous to me. I still do that. I would rather have thought she was deliberately provoking me - and in hindsight I think there *was* a certain amount of that going on. Although there are certainly ways of doing that that are unethical, I now think that she sort of was, but in an ethical way.

I suspect she looked at what was blocking me and decided not to protect me from certain feelings in our interactions. Maybe this would have been the way she operated in any situation with any client, but it felt like she chose not to be supercareful about the way she phrased things at certain times, or to offer me certain kinds of reassurance, because she felt like opportunities for me to be angry in the therapy were valuable. So it wasn't that she was trying to make me angry, but she would chose moments to show me with difficult information about myself so that we could go through that process of anger usefully - because (unlike me, unlike so many of us) she didn't believe that anger had to be hidden away or avoided in the relationship, but that there was a healthy role it could play.

So here you are, Beebee, with this history of absolutely reprehensible neglect in your childhood, and a lot of extremely powerful feelings about your T, and no doubt lots of difficult everyday life to deal with - and I wonder if your anger is accessible to you? Is it okay for you to feel angry about things, or is it like - if you get angry, then it feels like the situation is 'your fault'?

As for the comment about the SD - is he bringing his feelings into it, or is he reflecting yours back to you? Is it an accurate reflection of those feelings? It may not be. Whether it is or not, I think it's interesting that for you at that moment you have to stop talking freely because you are worried about his feelings. If you weren't worried, you could say anything at that point - 'yeah, I do get more out of him. That confuses me', or 'no, I just get different things from the two of you, but it's easier with him' or 'you're crazy, T, that's not it at all', or 'does that make you jealous?' or 'that makes me scared to talk because I'm worried you might be hurt.'

I don't know what you did say - perhaps you said something that allowed you to express yourself - but I think that this is where the 'healing in the present moment' comes in. From learning (we have to learn) to recognise what is going through the mind and body at those times, to see it and feel just okay enough with it to admit to it and to venture into words. Because the alternative is to switch off, hide under a blanket of "this probably isn't working. they probably don't know what they are doing. it's not safe" - I do this all the time and am doing it with my current T now.

Beebs, I am terribly sorry that your childhood experience was that the adults around you were NOT competent, NOT ethical, NOT able or willing to look after you properly. I'm terribly sorry that you had to learn to do it yourself, and that that has such a damaging effect your ability to trust. I don't know for sure if you can trust your T (I SUSPECT he's okay...), but I believe you can trust yourself, and those feelings that come up in the moment, to be worth the risk of words.

love,
Jones

BB,

I'm so sorry you're dealing with so much confusion with your T.

quote:

he has said in past that it is not in talking about the past I will find the healing, but "in the present moment."

I think that when you're in a place of trust with your T, talking about your past will bring those feelings into the present. I think when things are so deeply buried, like feelings and memories, talking about the past and trying to connect memories with emotions is the only way to get more in touch with yourself in a way that can bring everything into the room at that moment. If that makes sense. I know for me, if I just spent my sessions talking about how I feel in that moment (numb), what kind of thoughts I have about myself (self-hatred), or what my goals are (I have no clue), no progress would be made. I would just stay in a perpetual cycle. This is just how I think I would experience it, and you could be the complete opposite! I often find that I have a deep need to understand why in the heck I do or think or feel the things I do, and for me, it seems like talking about the past is one of the only ways to do that. I can talk about my current situations, but I'll ultimately want to know what I did, what patterns I was repeating and how they were created, that put me in the place I'm in right now.

I do believe that journaling is a good and helpful thing to do...do you think maybe you could compromise with your T? Maybe write everything down and not censor any of it, show him that you did it, but only share what you feel comfortable sharing. Or, just read however much you can until you feel like it would be more harmful or just too painful, embarrassing, whatever, for you to say more. My T always tells me that I never have to tell her anything I don't want to, and I think that this is what your T is also saying, but he's just saying it in a different way.

Big hugs, BB.

Yes, what Kashley says, too.

Also, two other things - one, that I'm so very glad he is inviting your journalling, and recognises your need for closeness, understanding, and caring, and wants to provide it. That in itself is wonderful. And I wonder how much of this terrible painful feeling, of bleeding to death, is the feeling of being newly connected to the reality of your past, your childhood and what was done to you, and to the reality of your need for love and care in the present, and all the fear and deprivation attached to that?

love,
J

Thank you so much, you guys. There is some powerful insight in what you have written here, and I really badly needed that. Yes, Jones, it probably is just as simple as saying exactly what I'm feeling in the moment...about what he says. The good sessions we have had worked out that way, and there was so much healing and empowerment in that...why doesn't it feel safe, anymore to do that, I wonder. He just doesn't feel safe to do that with anymore.

And yes, Jones, I thought of that, too , that maybe I am reliving something intense from the past...no specific thing, but just the whole thing of it. I went through this same thing last year, badly, shortly after starting counseling with him, and honestly there were times I felt like I wasn't even in my own body or something..very scary. But I think, my T would agree about what you've said. That's why I emailed him and asked for another session...because there probably isn't any way out of this but directly through the terrible pain he evokes whether on purpose or by accident._ I keep side-stepping. But I think really maybe, I just have to take the plunge, and let him do his thing, whatever that happens to be. I guess that's why I was wondering if he was doing that "mean thing" or triggering that "on purpose" because he has mentioned, and even in last session, that bringing that back is the only thing that will "get me back in touch with myself." Kind of a have- to- be- cruel- to- be- kind, thing. Perhaps...or it may just be a side-product of his personal style or real inconsistencies in dealing with me, that I find very triggering for whatever reason. In any case the end result seems to be the same, I end up here in this strange place where there is a little bit of light and a lot of pain, and I do think I have to somehow endure it...the problem is that, the pain is *real.* I mean, he really, really hurts me badly. For whatever reason. I'm not convinced it's a bad thing, now that I had a couple of days feeling "normal." If normal involves experiencing deep emotions that make no sense that is. But I do (did) feel in touch with my kids again, and able to just do the junk I have to do. If it could get even better than this, I would like that... a lot. But I also find myself clinging to not going through it, out of the fear that he'll ditch me once I'm on reasonable footing. Gosh. He's said his door is always open. What am I so afraid of? Maybe it really is an addiction I need to be "weaned off of." I don't know. I don't know anything.

Kashley, I also feel this deep need to talk about the past to him...I'm just afraid that it's not "kosher" to do that with him, for some reason. There have been times when he really seemed to shut me down when I tried to do that. Like, interupting, changing the subject, being forgetful...once he even yawned when I just started to open up a little bit, which is really no small feat to do. He really seems so "mean" when he is doing these things. Like Gosh, I can't believe he would treat me this shabbily, especially when I pay him so much money- it's almost beyond belief...or am I overreacting...kind of thing. Later he apologized for that, but at first, right during the session he was quite defensive when I very shakily spoke up. (a la Psyche Cafe...) But then another time, I asked him, point blank if I am supposed to do that with him, and he said, "you have to talk about it over and over again, with me to heal." But, then this time, when I admitted to "wanting him to get angry at me" and I said, well, "I used to wish my parents would get angry and scold me the way other kids parents did." He acted really surprised, and made a comment that indicated he thought from that I must have had some very severe neglect. But, I thought he already knew that...? Have I not told him anything, I wonder? geez...I must just sit there. Or if he forgets...gosh, that would be awful.

Anyway, sorry for so rambly and all over the place...

Kashley, Jones, thanks so much. geez, I just don't know about this reading to him thing...Do you do that? I'm sorry if you've mentioned it, I just am forgetting a lot right now. I really, really don't want to do that. But I have a little thing about reading aloud, especially anything I've written...not good. very scary. Not sure if I can do it. I guess I have to do it though...how am I going to do this? It's like he zeros in on my worst fear and makes me do *that* eek. I have to face it somehow.
Thanks for the amazing support. I'm so sorry that I'm in such a weird place, and not able responding too well to anyone else right now.
Thanks for letting me hash it all out. Gosh, I wish I could've talked to him about all of this stuff yesterday, I hope I'm not being too burdensome. sheesh. there I go again. I'd better sign off. I just really want to thank you from my heart.

Much love,

BB

Jones, I forgot to ask, did you really think he's ok, or just suspect it?

Thank youthankyouthankyou.....x100...

BeBe

quote:

I just don't know about this reading to him thing...Do you do that? I'm sorry if you've mentioned it, I just am forgetting a lot right now. I really, really don't want to do that. But I have a little thing about reading aloud, especially anything I've written...not good. very scary. Not sure if I can do it. I guess I have to do it though

I don't read aloud my journals, no. Actually, I've never even mentioned to my T that I write in a journal. Not that I'm keeping it from her...it just hasn't come up. But I'd never be able to read them out loud. My last T suggested journaling when I first started therapy, saying that I could bring the journal in with me, if I wanted. I started to journal, but I never brought it in, and she never pushed or brought it up again. Sometimes my imagination runs a little wild and I imagine what it would be like if I were brave enough to bring my journal in and read some of my entries to my (current) T that have some raw details in there. But I cringe at the thought. The whole point of a journal is to feel free to write anything and everything you want, never having to fear that anyone will read it. The way your T is suggesting this completely undermines the purpose of therapeutic journaling, IMO. I know that if I knew that I'd have to read what I write out loud to my T, it would never ever be what I truly think and feel, because I would censor what I said no matter how hard I tried not to.

Also, I just want to emphasize, BB, that you absolutely do not have to do anything you don't want to do. Therapy is also about learning where and when to establish boundaries, and if you feel like you're truly not ready to share so much with him, then don't do it. Don't force yourself to open up to him simply because he says you need to. I believe he does care for you and wants what's best for you, but ultimately, only you can know what's right for you.

Trust is so imperative to everything in therapy, and with how much you're still not sure about whether you can trust your T or not (and take this next part with a grain of salt...just some ramblings here), it makes me wonder if maybe the only definitive way to know if he's truly deserving of your trust is if you take a big chance and hope that he pulls through for you. Who knows, perhaps that's what he's pushing for...maybe he is pushing so much for you to read your journals because he knows that what is written in a journal is deeply intimate and brutally honest and it's not something that is shared lightly. Maybe he's trying to almost force you to take that chance so that he can come through for you.

Anyway, sorry if all of that is useless. Take care of yourself, BB.

(((Kashley)))) not at all useless...gosh, it's just so good to get some friendly feedback, Kashley...I have to say that he isn't pushing me to, sorry if it came out that way...I would say it was a suggestion, certainly. I only *wish* he would ever *make* me do anything-anything at all...

I know I don't have to do it...but therapy is about growth and challenging yourself to do difficult and painful things that are ultimately, good for you, right? So I feel like I *have to.* Honestly Kashley, with everything you are going through, I can't understand how you can be here, helping me out...sweetie, go and have a rest or watch some telly...unless this is helping you, of course. Be gentle to yourself right now.

BB

sheesh, I'm sorry, what I just wrote sounded so bossy. I didn't mean it the way it sounded, I was trying to talk to myself, when I siad about challenging myself- not you, I just wanted that to be clear... you are dealing enough challenges right now, without making any more...sorry, Kashley, that just sounded so bad.

BB

Oh, BB, please don't feel as if you have anything to apologize for! I didn't think anything you said came across as bossy. Actually, some of what you said hit right on the point I was trying to make (though failed to!), and I wanted to respond again. My brain has just been working a little slowly, so I decided to hold off. You've never done anything but be so incredibly kind to me, BB, and I've never taken anything you've said to be anything but that. So please don't worry (even though I completely understand how easy it is to be sucked into that endless cycle of worrying that you've done or said something unforgivable).

How are you doing today, BB?

Dear BB,

quote:

Jones, I forgot to ask, did you really think he's ok, or just suspect it?

I suspect it. If you want my gut instinct, brutally honest, could be wrong, based on nothing but what I've read on the boards, disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer...

I think he is probably a good-enough T who makes some mistakes sometimes to do with 'tuning out' or appearing to, and not 'getting it', which is nothing to do with you or the value of your being or your story, but to do with your relative ways of being at this stage in the therapy. The image for me is like this: you are a very small animal who wants to talk to a large, slightly clumsy animal. You keep asking him (quietly) to come down your safe little hole to talk to you, because you DO want to talk to him and you have an idea he wants to talk to you, too, and he does *try* to come down the hole, but - he actually doesn't fit down there. He can sorta smell you down there but he can't quite see you or conduct a proper conversation. And he can't scare you out, because then you'll think he wants to eat you, which he doesn't. My instinct is that once you get far enough out of the hole to talk, you guys could have a LOT to say to each other and you could do a lot of growing. But the process of coming out of the hole is really important too. Because your companion here IS a little clumsy, and you need a little bit of strength and resilience and robustness to be able to chat and play with him without getting too biffed around. So as you come out of the hole (and duck back a bit, then come out a bit more) you are getting stronger. And sooner or later you will be out there mucking about and saying 'OW! That was too rough!' when it's too rough and enjoying it when it's not and so on.

But that's just my little imagining about it....

xxxJ

(((((((Kashley)))))) you really are a sweetie.

(((((((Jones)))))))) and so are you...I absolutely love what you wrote, it's actually a really powerful description for me. I hope you don't mind, I printed it to keep in my er, journal...I guess you could call it a journal. er...let me rephrase...my kinda weird pile and conglomeration of papers and writings. I love the image of my T as a large and kinda clumsy animal...that kinda describes him perfectly...the whole thing of it. And thank you for your disclaimer...I know that you understand that I can be the kind of person who will take any advice that is given to me... so the huge disclaimer is appreciated, because it frees me to look at it objectively. But my gut instinct has beens saying something along these lines, too...and in fact I wrote a letter to him in my journal that says the same kind of thing, only in different words, of course.

gosh, I just feel so happy from your replies this morning...actually...happy! strange feeling that. I've been kinda gritting my teeth, trying to leave posts up lately, so your reassurance is so kind, both of you. Kashley, I would love to hear more about what you were trying to say, if you get the ability *and* inclination. I know about the brain moving slowly, and the fog and confusion...alienation from yourself, as my T would say. It is most difficult to live like this, and why we are in therapy. Yes, it is easy to think we have done something unforgivable, that will ultimately end in being driven away or slowly starved to death...and I just want to say to anyone reading...if I have ever neglected to respond or failed to respond appropriately, and if that lack had the misfortune to hurt someone, please know that it has nothing to do with you, but rather that annoying thing called time.

I wanted to say that this suggestion of my T to do journaling to him, wasn't a request to peek into my private writings or anything like that...gosh, I realize I tend to represent my T unfairly when I just write off the top of my head. I remember that in fact, I was admitting that I am having constant thoughts and conversations with him in my head, and he suggested, I write them in a journal "for that purpose" "-all these thoughts and feelings you have about me," and then read them aloud to him next time. He said I have to get it out somehow, instead of driving myself crazy. wow, I'm realizing, the more I write, that this session that felt so horrible and uncaring and unconnected to me, had a lot of very objective, kind of unemotional, for lack of a better word- caring from him in it. this makes me feel comforted and love my T. eek. again. Not sure if that comfort is a good thing or not.

Anyway, thanks for asking how I am, Kashley. The grief is starting to dissipate...I'm going in and out of functional to depressed and foggy feeling. But I would say that overall, I am much better off after this emotionally painful session. Very strange that. I keep trying to resist this powerful urge I've just become aware of, that I use some kind of fantasy (no specific thoughts, really, just things that pop into my head) to make me think he cares about me on a really deep level. I'm sure they are just imaginations, but they feel very real to me. It's giving me a lot of very strange, unpredictable and frightening emotions just coming at me out of nowhere...stuff I haven't experienced feeling for, well, maybe I've never expereinced them. Some of it is really scary and worries me. And I keep just seeing my T, through it all, clear as day in my mind... sitting very straight and tall, head tilted back a bit, trying to stay still-and letting me look at him...just allowing me to look deeply at him. And looking back, down at me, with a kind of twinkly, grave look. It's very strange. Gosh- I feel this deep love and gratitude for him when I see his face in my head like that.What is happening to me? Well, that's how I'm feeling today. My fear of him is gone, for now.

Thanks for reading...

BB

BB

quote:

My fear of him is gone, for now.

dear BB, just those few words made me so happy for you. You go through such angst and turmoil and work so very hard on your therapy ....you really deserve those moments of relief more than ever. May it continue I pray.


((((BB)))))

Hello there BB I’ve missed posting to most of your thread and now I’m reading that you’re finding yourself in a much more positive place in relation to your T - that’s so good to hear!

I’m reading in your posts here lots of confusion - I wish I had some answers for you. About the only useful thing I can contribute (and it’s not that useful either!) is that I think a lot of the problems you’re experiencing are to do with the fact that you don’t see your T very often - by the time you get from one session to the next you’ve gone through so many feelings and thoughts and insights and questions that it would be impossible not only to tell your T about them, but simply to keep them in your awareness for such a long time.

I really hope you can bring yourself to open up a bit more with him - maybe even talk to him about your attachment? (Well if you’re going to expose yourself, why not go for the biggie straight away )

Hope you can stay feeling positive - hold onto these moments of clarity they are like beacons in a fog.

Hugs to you BB

LL

BB,

I'm so glad that you're feeling a little better today. I know I'm one to talk (lol!) but try to embrace the care that you're feeling from your T. Back in one of your other posts where you talked about therapy being about taking chances and making changes...accepting your T's care is a chance that may seem a little bit like a necessary evil right now, but if you have a T that can contain and support you (I really like Jones' post about your T and think it's very relevant), then letting in that care is one of those chances that you need to see if you can take. I've kind of forgotten what exactly I was going to say to you the other day, BB, but I know it had to do with taking chances in therapy and about how it's all a tedious guessing game as to when we should or should not risk ourselves. It seems almost impossible to gauge when it's safe, because we simply do not know from experience when we are truly safe enough to risk any part of ourselves.

In one session with my T, I was telling her that it seemed like I needed to take a leap of faith to catalyze a change. It seems like we become so ingrained in these patterns that you don't know where the exit is anymore. It's like a maze a lot of times. So when you have a T to support you, to follow you in your search for the exit, someone who can be there if you find yourself face to face with another wall and someone who can take you by the shoulders and point you in a new direction, that is when real change can begin. But you have to trust that your T will be behind you. And I think that's what you're in the process of finding, BB...that you can trust your T. Yet, I know that in my case, it takes some major risks sometimes to recognize this...I think I always manage to find ways to take smaller risks but still remain in the same pattern. I always find a way to stay closed off, both to myself and to my T, so that I can regroup if all of this fails.

I just wanted to touch on something, too...

quote:

I'm realizing, the more I write, that this session that felt so horrible and uncaring and unconnected to me, had a lot of very objective, kind of unemotional, for lack of a better word- caring from him in it. this makes me feel comforted and love my T. eek. again. Not sure if that comfort is a good thing or not.

I wonder, BB...why do you think it is that you're able to feel caring from your T when you describe his demeanor as objective and unemotional?

(((Starfish)))...thank you for the care and support...xx

Lamplighter! It's so good to see you! I'm going to have to go and chaeck out what's been going on for you, since I haven't seen any posts yet. Hopeing all is well with you...thanks you for the words of support. LL, I know that continuous and regular sessions would help move things along. I'm really going to try to ask for that. It's so hard when I honestly and with every fibre of my being feel that he wants me the heck out of his life so often. sheesh. up and down, up and down. I've talked a little about my attachemnt. Most of that has been done by email. He says I need to talk in person to him about it all, that is where the healing will happen. Problem is, when he's a bit tuned out acting or whatever, I just completely freeze. I grew up with a mom who spent most of her time stting in a chair reading magazines smoking cigarettes and had no idea where I was or what I was doing...and a dad who was a nice, easygoing man like my T is- but easily, out of nowhere enraged by random things or us kids speaking out. I'm thinking this might have something to do with it. who knows? I've kind of made a commitment to just kind of put myself in his hands and trust him, at this point. It just gets hard sometimes. You know how it is...how are things going with you in T, LL? Well, I'll check around and see, have you posted anything. I missed you. (((((LL)))))

Kashley...gosh, you sure do have a talent for asking really good questions that make me think...thank you for that! and for you kindness and support. ((((Kashley))))

quote:

It seems almost impossible to gauge when it's safe, because we simply do not know from experience when we are truly safe enough to risk any part of ourselves.

Amen! Does his coming and goin, kinda impersonal demeanor mean he isn't safe? What about when I can see and feel his care? Which one is true? Maybe I'M the one who is Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide? It's just freaking confusing, no matter what. I love what Jones said about it, because it really points out to me that there is a balanced and humorous, and even tender way to look at all of this. Gosh, I just keep obsessing about my T, though. that worries me...a lot.

quote:

I wonder, BB...why do you think it is that you're able to feel caring from your T when you describe his demeanor as objective and unemotional?

gosh, thanks for asking...let me think, about your question...I think it's just the opposite. But then I start thinking and realizing his professionalism and boundaries are really the kindest thing he can do for me, since I want him to "love" me and act like it, so much...so after I think about it for awhile, I feel "loved" because of the professionalism and boundaries. Or I start trying to find little ways that show he does care about me outside of the therapy relationship, and I think these are just ideas of my own, but that they have a very tiny shred of basis in reality, and that keep those ideas fueled, though. If he is strictly professional and and unemotional, won't lead or guide, etc. I feel very unloved horribly rejected and very hurt and triggered at the time. But at some point I realize, gosh, that is him caring...even though it hurts. For some reason this realization fuels the attachment even more, since I always wished for someone who was so self-contained and yet still caring, to care about me. But I'm also triggered and pulling away, because this "removed" style makes me feel very much like I am transported to the past where nobody, nobody, really cared enough to "tell me what to do" except for the people who told me so very forcefully and cruelly in school. I guess I'm looking for someone and always have been, to take me by the hand and tenderly say, "here, my dear...let me show you the way, for I am stronger than you and can lead." Maybe my T is doing exactly that, but for some reason I can't always feel it...or as he says, I can't accept it, find ways to demolish it as untrue...then when I do accept it and see it, I become completely besotted with him and can't even think straight anymore. Gosh, I'm just back and forth- implicitly trusting him, and then deeply fearing him...from minute to minute it can change. I don't know...I just don't know. Not a very cogent answer, I'm afraid. I feel like I'm stuck directly in the middle of a huge paradox, just frozen and slowly spinning, around and around...

How do I get off? Maybe, my T is finding some way to help...myseterious way. Incidentally, I've been having all kind of emotions...yes, real, un-summoned emotions that just *are there* without me forcing them to be there or manufacturing them, since last session. and I've started to dream...emotionally powerful dreams that leave me deeply feeling things...I'm scared of these powerful emotions. I never used to have dreams. My head feels weird. I'm in and out of these emotional states, and then numbness or uncontrollable anger that I have to just sit on and supress again. I do not know what is happening. A bit scary, like he is *doing something to me.*

Thanks you guys... I really need to let some of this out. i'm maybe going nutso!

Beebs