Hey AV
Interesting article. I know my therapist wouldn't have the kind of dual
relationship you have with your T. She wouldn't consider it ethical or
therapeutic to be friends, even after therapy ends. I long to be her
friend, but it's not gonna happen and it needs to be worked through in session,
not at my house or in a psychology lecture.
I get that you think it works for you and your T, but I would like to ask how
long you discussed her coming to your house or giving you lifts in her car, in session
before it happened and what the therapeutic benefit was to you with her doing
that?

I also wanted to ask how you cross back...from what to what?

I certainly think it's exploitive for her to talk to you about business ideas
in your session. I really can't see how that is therapeutic for you. It's meant to be
about you, not her!

I probably just sound "sour grapes" because I can't have what you've got with your T,
but surely the point of therapy is to give you the resources to find friends
outside of the therapeutic relationship, not within it?

Just my thoughts, but I do question her ethical standards with some of the things you
describe occurring in your relationship and wonder if it really is in your
best interests?

Searching

i could never even imagine doing that stuff with my T. it's just not that kind of relationship. i am totally not comfortable enough with myself to even think that such a thing could take place, realistically, between me and my T.

Hi Searching

I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

About T coming to my house; we were both moving house at about the same time; me because I was separating from my W, and T because her ex landlord was evicting her! We agreed that once we'd both moved we'd 'celebrate' with a drink. It wasn't planned for any particular week; I turned up for my session and T said she had no clients after me and if I wanted to call my cab company and cancel my cab home she give a ride and see my new place!! Does there have to any therapeutic benefit to it? As the guy in the interview said 'so long as it's at least neutral' it's no bad thing. If anything it cemented the level of trust we have in each other. Besides that, T was genuinely concerned about how I might be living after I separated and had to fund two properties, and allowing her to see my place for herself was a way of letting her see it was the right thing to do to split from my W.

We cross and cross back from 'friends' mode to T/client mode. I might start by asking T how HER week has been! and we'll chat as friends for a few minutes, then; it's all back to me and my therapy. Or we'll say goodbye as friends but the next time I see her, we're T/client as usual.

quote:

I certainly think it's exploitive for her to talk to you about business ideas
in your session. I really can't see how that is therapeutic for you.

REALLY,Searching! Seriously? Do you think I'd have the confidence to be posting my opinions on here right now if my T hadn't encouraged me to give her my opinion on things. After a lifetime of believing I had no opinion worth voicing, to hear someone I admire and respect say to me "I'd value your opinion about x,y,z," was more therapeutic than you might believe. Not only did she ask; she listened to my opinion and she ACTED on my opinion where relevant. It might be unconventional; but boy; did it work!!

quote:

It's meant to be about you, not her!

Perhaps; but it doesn't have to be ALL about me. T will always ask first if I'm ok with her seeking my opinion on something; she doesn't just take it for granted that it's OK. I'm MORE than happy to give a little back to T during my sessions; that feels good to me; it's a two way thing as far as I'm concerned; it's 'mostly' about me of course; I'd be a bit miffed if it wasn't; but it wouldn't feel right to me if it were ALL about me week after week.

Believe me, Searching; T HAS allowed me to find the resources and the confidence to meet and make friends IRL, more than you could possibly imagine.

Is it really in my best interests? ABSOLUTELY, 110% YES.

Hey AV,

Well, I think we are similar in that my T takes a more flexible view of boundaries than many here as well.

She self discloses fairly liberally. I think part of it is due to her orientation and perspective on therapy, because she has explained that to me, but I also suspect she simply enjoys talking about herself at times. Anyway, I know a lot about her. I know about some of her hobbies, the books she reads, her political and religious views, the church she goes to, and a little about her family of origin, her kids, and her marriage. I know some of the places she likes to eat and shop.

Sometimes these disclosures have been helpful (in a humanizing sense, I like knowing she is real and can sometimes relate to me as a person instead of "just a client"). Sometimes they've been a little badly judged-- like when I announced my pregnancy and she talked about her miscarriages , or after baby's birth, when I was pretty pumped about the birth experience and she went on about feeling disappointed about her C-sections. But more often I think her disclosing has been neutral, simply a part of the back drop of my therapy, her style and the way she works.

She's vented to me a few times about things that were bothering her. I think she knows she technically "shouldn't" do that, because she's always apologized afterward. I can't say I really mind, though. I tend to feel more affectionately towards her when she's in those moods. Dunno why.

Regarding dual relationships, well, I know she is somewhat open minded on that subject because once she went away to speak at a conference and I asked her when she came back what her talk had been one and she said, "Oh, I don't know if I can summarize. It's a three hour talk."

And I was like, "just tell me a little!"

So she said it was about ethics in psychotherapy, and that she talked a lot about dual relationships, and that it was a controversial subject that could make people a little uncomfortable but that that was a good thing. lol.

She's told me another time that it's "impossible to avoid clients in a town as small as this one" and that she doesn't mind going to church with clients, that she's been in churches with clients before and has some clients at her current church. I am not sure to what extent she does or doesn't avoid them ther, but she seemed pretty chill about the whole thing. Once I told her that I had considered visiting her church (which was true) but that I hesitated after I learned she went there, because I didn't want her to think I was a creepy stalker. She laughed and said she wouldn't think that and that she'd be glad to see me there. I've never actually gone, though, and this was a year ago. Maybe T can handle it, but I can't.

Also about dual relationships-- once she referred to us as "friends" which made me feel a little weird-- almost like it was patronizing, because I felt she couldn't really mean it. And once she said something vague about wanting me to meet her daughters. I think I must have looked startled because she never explained or mentioned it again.

In a nutshell, I suspect from these things T is more comfortable with dual relationships than I am. From what you write, it sounds like you and your T are more at the same level of comfort with that kind of thing, which I think is neat. I'm kind of a reserved person, which would make socially interacting with T more awkward for me, I think. Plus there might be a low self esteem thing there, too-- like I don't think I'm "good" enough for her to have to see me outside of therapy.

Phew, I have just written a novel. I guess I find the topic interesting even if I'm low on opinions at the moment-- these are my experiences for what they're worth.

It's great you feel that way AV.
Certainly what an observer sees cannot compare to how you see and experience it.
Regarding your point about giving a bit back to T, I think the fee you pay covers
that. The therapeutic relationship is an odd one and is bound by ethical codes-
It's great that you currently see it all as in your best interests, but if you
changed your mind at any point, your T would be leaving herself wide-open to
disciplinary procedures for her unconventional approach, certainly under BACP guidelines!

It's kind of like that teacher who has just been imprisoned for abducting his 15
year old student...she doesn't think he's done anything wrong and wouldn't have
pressed charges, but by nature of his role and position of trust he is in, he is guilty
of a crime! Now I'm not in anyway suggesting you have a sexual relationship with your
T, but the principles of power imbalance and you being vulnerable apply in my opinion.
And that is all it is-my opinion. So feel free to disregard. I intend no offence...

Take good care
S

PS-I'm also not thinking your T is committing a crime!! Just the analogy of
Teacher/student and T/client came to mind and yes, she would need to know the
therapeutic value of what she was doing by taking you home and going to lectures with
you. You are the client and she does have the power in the relationship!

(((Searching))) no offence taken!! I value everyones opinion. I wouldn't have posted if I was worried about the responses it might generate

Just to make it crystal clear though; T and I DO NOT and WILL NOT have a sexual relationship, and I've more chance of winning the Euro Millions lottery than changing my mind about T.!!

She's effectively saved my life and for that I'll be eternally grateful to her.

(((HiC))) thank you for your reply; sorry, i nearly missed it while reading and replying to Searching. T once asked me if I thought of her as a friend, or as a T, or as both; and when I replied 'both' she said 'I thought so' in such a way as to make me think she thought that way too. I think we HAVE to be equally comfortable with it to be honest with you; and I have no doubt that EVERYTHING T does or says is always with my best interests at heart.

I'm glad you have a T with a more flexible attitude to boundaries as well; and i truly hope it works as well for both of you as it is for us.

AV.

I am jealous AV.

((((TAS))))

Have some hugs from me!!!!!

Thank you!

Just wondering, AV, do you know if she has this kind of relationship with all of her clients? Does she go to other clients' homes? Just wondering..

Edited to add.... ugh, I'm sorry it's so long. I typed a billion words a minute so what takes me 5 minutes to say ends up being a novella.


One of my Ts has been to my house before, in the context of picking something up from me for a seminar (I don't drive, so could not bring it to her). Both of them and myself have used to 'l word' but, we have the same definition(s) of what love is in therapy. I have a friend who saw my T before and she has been to her house, I'm not sure why. My T (T1) is crazy conscious about ethics. For example, she has been to one of my art shows with her spouse but could not purchase anything because that would be a dual thing. She also will not/cannot (both my Ts have said this) accept something as a gift that they have told me they like. Anyhow, it's not dual but there are some crossings and we discuss them.

Some cultures do the kiss on the cheek thing, but I do think out of culture kissing is a little... inappropriate. Sometimes though, clients can't see what may be ineffective in a relationship. Are you comfortable discussing the kissing AV, or have you? When some touch work changed with one of my Ts, we discussed it and I also bounced it off my other T to make sure it was appropriate and she said it was ethically and ultimately if I am uncomfortable then it is not appropriate. I kept, my whole life, touch in my life as a secret so when there is touch involved now with people I trust that is new I need to check that it is okay (whether it is in the therapy room, or in my outside life).

I imagine there are things I could try to ask for that may be crossings. T1 has told me the specific standards she follows on boundaries, I can read it online (not on a website of hers, but the name of the specific theorist she follows).

As far as talking about their own stuff, that is actually what destroyed my therapy with T2. However that was her "stuff" (emotions) otherwise I knew stuff she was doing, her kids were doing... with T1 I know some odd stuff about her H and what she's doing on the weekend, too. We watch some of the same TV shows, movies, etc... it's great material to titrate with in therapy to sorta wind down a session. So I find it risky, but I do not think it is necessarily inappropriate to ask for opinions on something or ideas - but it should be on their time, or therapeutically useful. And CONSCIOUSLY useful, as in the therapist thought about it... the problem is you can never see if it's appropriate.

I'm not sure if your relationship with your T is a dual relationship at the moment, AV. It sounds a little like an exploitive T relationship, or at least one that may be going that way. The problem I think is sometimes... we idealize and make more of the relationships that we have with our Ts at times. I know I have.. there are several things my T does with me that she has told me she does not do w/ all her clients, and it depends on what it individually successful. In the thick of it sometimes we can't see things - and again, that is my very personal experience with T2 talking here.

What matters is the power differentials... imagine she takes things away or stops doing something and you get angry (just for example). Would you have a case against her licensee if you wanted to take it? Yep. I'm not saying you personally would I'm just saying... what a risk to take. Then there is like I said the idealization of the T - example... I go to the same Starbucks all the time and order the same thing. Sometimes, when they see me come in and there is a line... they'll make my drink and let me know it's ready often before I've even gotten a chance to pay. At first, because it was one particular individual who would do this and talk to me, I thought that they might be 'interested' in me. The reality though, is most likely that he's good at his job. Interactive, etc. I've seen him make other people's drinks, and chat the same way with them. The "power differential" in that example is he can use the espresso machine and I can't. That may not be the best example, but I'm just talking about making things more than perhaps they actually are.

Aside from the kissing, and the amount she talks about herself the rest of the stuff doesn't sound necessarily out of the norm. The seminars could go that way but if it's about a topic relevant to your therapy and the T consciously knew that (like wrote in her notes specifically WHY she takes an action, I know my T does this - so if shit hits the fan she has her reasons for specific interventions or practices). If for example, you ever went to an ethics board (again, not saying you would) and talked about something that wasn't in her notes... that's when you'd have a case.

You can rationalize that asking your opinion is building your confidence... but has she said that? When she said 'I thought so' when asking about how you saw her (as 'both') what exactly is speaking in a way that indicates they feel the same? We absolutely cannot know (we can guess) what someone feels or thinks unless they say. I've thought my T has said stuff in a "mad" way and I ask... are you mad? She says no. This means she's not mad and I just heard she was mad. We then process how I came to that conclusion, or what it was in her manner that made me feel that way... this way we can make adjustments if needed or I can just be more aware of my 'mind reading' or what triggers me, etc. I dunno.. My Ts are just more conscious of this stuff, and explain it or I ask because I've been exploited in the past and I get all paranoid. My Ts can (and will) tell me the therapeutic value of each touch, each crossing, rather than allowing me to assume. Maybe it's because of my paranoid approach to life... that I ask and they tell me.

Anyway, my hope is that you don't get hurt. If it's a relationship you feel is safe or is helping you then you'll stay. Talking about it, like you said... shows you are not uncomfortable with what is going on. What I say just comes from the eye of a hurricane with T2 where I talked myself in to a lot of things - just like I did when I was a kid.

I'm not trying to argue with your feelings; I hope I didn't come across that way. Just giving my experience and perspective. I get an absolute ton from my T, and I do have a 'unique relationship' with her that is 'give and take' (at least she has described it that way, and of course, because I love to generate uncomfortable moments, I asked her... well... what exactly do I give? Her definition was a little lackluster but knowing she finds value from my side of the room was nice).

Hi AV,
I've been pondering on the dual relationship thing since you posted this and
a few more things came up for me that I wanted to ask you about-if I'm going
waaaay off topic or being too nosey, pls feel free to say so...

I'm wondering about how you will end with your T? Is it on your agenda and do
you talk about it and what contact you will have after therapy ends? I'm ending
with my T in the next few weeks and have been grieving the fact that my week-by-week
contact with T will end. She won't continue seeing me because she knows that our
work has to end and it wouldn't be ethical to keep taking my money when I am
so much better and don't need her as I once did. I am reluctantly being pushed
out the nest and I guess I'll see if I can fly without her. I was musing on whether
all the personal info your T has shared has made it harder for you to end
as it feels like you are ending with a friend not a professional relationship?

I'm assuming ending is on your agenda somewhere here? Do you review your work
with T and identify further work to be done? Of course, there is always work
to be done, but surely a T's job is to make themselves redundant and for clients to
continue their work on their own? I'm not sure what I'm asking really? How would
it be for you to end therapy? Does morphing into a friend relationship mean you
miss out on (apparently) the most crucial part of therapy-the ending? Does it mean
you and T avoid the pain of ending because you will carry on as friends?

Just thoughts and as I said pls don't feel you have to answer. I'm just interested
in others thoughts about all this as I face my own ending with T!

S

Edited to add: My T is leaving the door open for me to return to therapy
any time I want or need to!

Hi AV,

Interesting thread. Just thought I would share a summarized version of my story and people can take what they want from it. I had a dual relationship with my old T of ten years. You may have read some about it. Aside from our hour long weekly sessions on and off over a 10 year span. (which involved hugging, holding, nurturing and comforting as a mother figure), our relationship also carried outside the therapy room. She came to my home when my daughter was born and talked with me about my Post-pardom depression. She came to the hospital when my son was born and sat in the NICU with us. She brought me birthday gifts (I was still in the hospital), a cake, cards, ect. We talked and texted alot outside of session.
On the milder side, we talked about her stuff as well as my stuff in session. I knew about her family, I knew about personal stuff with her work (nothing about clients, something about her on the business end of it). She had offered for her daughter to babysit my kids although I never took her up on that. I knew alot of "her stuff". We chatted on the phone at times (during the spans I didn't need as much therapy) to see how I was doing. I would ask her questions or opinions about things that I could not ask my own mother.

I felt alive. I felt cared for. I felt better. I felt fixed. I felt like I was worth something and that someone else truly loved me and would never harm me. I felt eternally grateful to her. I also, unfortunatley, believed in my head that our relationship would forever be this way. That there was no way she was treating me like this just b/c I was a "special client" of hers. I believed that things would never change, even when therapy ended. And maybe, that was my own issue. But I'm starting to learn that a big part of it was about the dual relationship.

Then things took a bit of a sour turn. In my situation, the dual relationship became a problem when I took a break from therapy. I started to feel confused about our relationship. I decided that I really no longer wanted to pay an arm and a leg for an hour of "therapy" when it was like we were already friends anyways. I figured I could have her in my life in the same way it had always been (minus the therapy) with no problem. Wrong. I slammed straight into a brick wall. She cannot have a "personal relationship" with me b/c of the ethics and codes guidelines. It has to be "therapy". So in other words (in my mind) I have to keep continuing to pay her an arm and a leg for what I thought was "our friendship" to continue.

This may be a more extreme example than what you are referring to, but in my opinion, I think it all ends the same with dual relationships...badly. Horribly. And very painfully and traumatizing for the client.

I have not seen her since November and I am still agonizing every day about what happened.

quote:

The problem I think is sometimes... we idealize and make more of the relationships that we have with our Ts at times.

- I think Cat nailed it on the head in my case. I have been left thinking that I must have thought something different of the relationship than T did.

I think it's a good thread AV. And this is just my personally story and my personal opinion and what will change the decision I make going forward in regards to therapy.

Firstly can I just say that I’m genuinely touched by the fact that all your replies are trying to ensure I don’t end up hurt or having my therapy hindered by way of any dual relationship or boundary crossing; thank you!!

T has always had this at the forefront of everything she does with me as her client, and continues to do so. Until maybe 6 months ago, T didn’t allow boundary crossing because she felt it was only likely to increase the attachment and transference, and even now she still closely monitors this and we always talk over any boundary crossings. Please don’t think my T is being exploitive in any way, because she genuinely isn’t.

((Erica)) No; as far as I’m aware, T hasn’t been to any other clients house and nor does she allows other clients to hug at the end of a session. Just to be clear, T has been to my house ONCE, in early March, for around 45 minutes. I’ve no idea if she’ll visit again; if she does then that’s great; if she doesn’t them I’m okay with that too.

((cat)) Thank you for your reply. To answer your questions; yes, we will always at least mention any kiss that takes place to ensure it was appropriate and non harmful, and I’m quite comfortable doing that. We don’t make a big thing of talking through any boundary crossings however; we simply acknowledge them and bring them out in the open.

Cat; I know that what you are saying about it being a potentially exploitive T relationship, you are saying out of kindness and concern for me, but truthfully it ISN’T. I fully accept that we idealise and indeed idolise our T’s – I’m as guilty of that as anybody – and if these boundary crossings had happened a year ago they would undoubtedly have been very damaging; hence T’s professionalism in ensuring that didn’t happen. Only recently now she sees my progress and my ability to accept things at face value and nothing more, has she taken a more flexible view over our boundaries.

The idea of the seminars came about because T thought they would be a good way for me to ‘get out there and mix with people’ as well as being of interest to me. Being psychology based lectures they were obviously of interest to T as well, and she suggested we do the first one together rather than push me in the deep end by going on my own. It was always taken as read that it would be part of my therapy and I would have a paid session with T beforehand, albeit in a public place, in order to keep it on a professional footing although the lectures themselves would be in our own free time. If it happens then great; if it doesn’t then I’m not going to worry about it or feel she’s taking things away from me in any way.

Like I said, I’m more than comfortable talking to T about all this stuff and I appreciate your thoughts and your perspective on things.

quote:

I get an absolute ton from my T, and I do have a 'unique relationship' with her that is 'give and take'

That's exactly how I see my relationship with T; as give and take.

((searching)) I’m currently on the verge of cutting back to seeing T every other week rather than once a week. In fact due to her recent ill health I’ve only seen her once a fortnight and it’s been surprisingly easy to do that. We both envisage a gradual cutting back in sessions as my need for her support decreases. I could see her once a month; every two months; who knows. But she will always be there for me as my T. I know she maintains e-mail contact with past clients in her own time in order to check in on how they’re doing and I’ve no reason to believe she won’t do that with me. If it morphs into a friendship only relationship afterwards that would be wonderful; if it doesn’t then I’m sure I’ll have the resources to be able to cope with that scenario. Like you; my T has always said I can return any time I need to.

((Kmay)) it does sound like you had a much more intense dual relationship with your old T than I have with mine. I’m so sorry the relationship you had with old T ended so badly for you, and I appreciate that everything you say is to try to ensure the same doesn’t happen to me. I truly believe it won’t end that way, and I’m thinking that the dual relationship I have with my T is quite minor and hence more easily managed. I can well see how your old T’s level of involvement in your private life caused the trauma and pain it did when it was taken away, and it serves to make me more appreciate of my T getting the balance of the relationship right and appropriate for us.

quote:

It was always taken as read that it would be part of my therapy and I would have a paid session with T beforehand, albeit in a public place, in order to keep it on a professional footing although the lectures themselves would be in our own free time.

AV - then why did you say in your first post it would be 'as friends'? It sounds like... as part of T not a separate dual friendship. My T has been, like I said to an art show and has offered to come to a stage performance in the past... that isn't as a friend, it's as my T being supportive. That was I guess what I was trying to get to... how is it an outside friendship? I think I have a much different "standard" or "idea" of what an actual dual relationship would be. A boundary crossing isn't necessarily a relationship, it's a boundary crossing... I think it's dangerous when the client believes it is something more. Especially when you're saying things like about her tone, how her tone in asking you if you thought you had a friendship with her as indicative of her believing there was a friendship. My T is the one who said our relationship was give and take - but my give isn't viewed as a friendship, it's viewed inside of our therapeutic frame. I guess I just wonder if the view of there being a friendship has actually been communicated by your T, rather than assumed by you based on her boundary crossing. That's all, and that's where my concern comes from. But, like I said, if you feel it's safe then there isn't really a point expressing any other sort of concern other than that you don't get hurt for any sort of reason.

I appreciate the discussion, and thanks for being so thoughtful and considerate, AV! The article was interesting, and I certainly agree with the psychologist that sometimes boundary crossings can be beneficial. Everyone is unique and treatment should be adjusted to meet one's realistic and appropriate needs.

I think he was saying that boundary crossings (the ones that are deliberate and can be avoided) need to be carefully thought out, and they also should have some therapeutic benefit. I don't think he would approve of being friends with your clients, though. I see that as a boundary violation, not crossing. I can definitely see how some of the things your T has done can be quite beneficial to you and your therapeutic needs. I just get uneasy when there's talk of potential friendship. In my view, that's just really not okay and not ethical whatsoever. I get concerned when I hear that, because the potential for such great hurt is there.

And going along with what Cat is saying...if your T really is professional and ethical like you're saying she is, then she would be doing these things with your needs in mind. She would see therapeutic value in everything she does, including driving you in her car, visiting you at home, kissing and hugging you, talking about doing things as friends, and talking to you about her life outside therapy with you. And if she can justify all of this, that means that she is just trying to help you, therapeutically...and the relationship would end after therapy ends. You would not be friends, because that's not how therapy goes. I just wonder what her thinking is with all this? And I do wonder if that is who she is as a therapist and maybe she does this with some/most/all of her clients. Maybe she kisses and hugs all of them? Talks about herself in all of her client's sessions? Obviously I have no idea, but maybe that is her style.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say. Only, I do think boundary crossings can be beneficial, but they must be carefully considered with sound clinical judgment. I just wonder if that is what is happening in your therapy. Ts should have no problem discussing their decisions with their colleagues. I wonder if your T would be fine talking with others in the field about her decisions to treat you. There's so much potential for hurt in the therapeutic relationship if it is misused...and it's easy to disregard this potential when our needs (and beyond) are getting met in the moment. I just hope everything works out for you.

((Cat & Erica))

((AV)) I am concerned for you and how you see your
T relationship. There is so much potential for abuse
in the scenarios you have described. I sincerely hope
that you don't end up badly hurt. I have to say there
are giant red flags for me in what you have shared!

Take care AV!

S

(((Cat))) (((Erica))) (((Searching)))

Again, thank you all for your concerns; it is appreciated and if nothing else, it serves as a reminder to me to at least be aware of the possibility of hurt, although in fairness to my T, she has ensured I already have enough tools to get most of my needs met IRL both now, and in the future.

Cat; yes, T has communicated the fact that she views 'us', and I use the term advisedly, as friends. She said no more than that.

Erica; believe me; my T is as ethical and professional as any other. Whether she sees therapeutic benefit in "everything" she does, I don't honestly know. But I do know she ALWAYS makes sure it's non-harming, or at least 'neutral' in it's benefit to me as her client; and she is always at pains to point out that I am, first and foremost, her client and that she has a duty of care for my wellbeing.
She doesn't hug or kiss other clients; but she certainly shares of herself with them; that IS very much her style.

Searching. Again, I appreciate you voicing your concerns. I'll keep my red flag rolled up for now, but thank you for making me aware of the potential pitfalls.

It's been an interesting discussion and I can only say I feel blessed to have the T I do have, and the way she works with me has allowed me to make the most incredible progress over the last 18 months.

I still really don't see the friendship. None the less, I'm glad you have a positive and close relationship with her - you're definitely not in a minority there, minus the kissing... I don't kiss friends or therapists - just my pets for now