Hi Mayo,

My T did EMDR with me early in my therapy.

I'm not familiar with what you mean about incidence 4, or 7 memory.

I do think it is important to take it slow....

If you are concerned, please express this to Sweet T, and discuss it more.

---------

My memories of the EMDR I did:

I remember her warning me that I'd be very tired after, so don't plan anything after, she told me. She said many clients go home and go to sleep. So, how you felt is not uncommon. This didn't really happen for me, though.

I remember her saying I can stop the EMDR at any time; I was in full control.

I remember about the "safe place" but I never had to go there (had to pick one and that was hard for me....I lack many safe places in my mind).

I know EMDR can be done differently....

My T sat to my right, using her right hand with two fingers up in front of my face, while I stared straight ahead. So, pretty simple. She always announced when she'd move towards me or away from me.

I remember one session I ended up almost in a fetal position in the chair when she asked me if I wanted to stop, and she backed up from me....I started sobbing about something....I remember sitting up and looking at her and thought I saw tears in her eyes....

I do remember when we planned a EMDR session, it was something she started basically the second I sat down in her office. 45-50 minutes isn't much time for EMDR.

It's been about 18 months since I've done EMDR and there is a particular day/event that I need to go back to EMDR for, and her and I agree I need to, but up till now, it wouldn't have been safe or healthy for me to.

Thinking of you.

I am such an idiot, sometimes. ...
I put out this post, but I forgot to check the notification, button...so Ninn, thanks for your reply.

I just had my second emdr session, and It was way different... couldn't focus. Now both my T and I know that I dissociate. I was never sure of that point. He saw me in that flat, disconnected, no mans land.

Last time, I had all of those symptoms of heaviness and tiredness, but this time- the disconnected feeling persists. So I think no new processing was happening. I don't know what this means though...rather out there right now.

You asked about the 4 and 7. Those are the levels of intensity. The scale goes from 0-7 with 7 being way high intense. My T also waves 2 fingers. But when I talked about hiding in a dark toy box... that may have been the disassociation beginning, not sure though. Not really sure of 2 much at this point. He stopped the emdr and was patting my hands. Weird. i don't know what happens next. I need to read more about it... I guess. thanks Ninn.

For what this is worth, my mother tried it and she is skeptical about anything that isn't related to western medicine, and she said it worked for her.

I am so sad. I dissociated while doing the emdr. It was the first time Mark (my T) ever saw it. So now it is confirmed that that is what happens to me. I never really knew what it was. EMDR was different. Mark knew how intense it was- it was about my hospitalization at age 9 he said I could - should call or txt if I needed to talk. I txted him- because I was hurting so badly. I could not believe he thought it was ok to not respond. This was becoming a pattern...saying he is so busy. I told him I dont feel the good connection any more, and that I am not coming back to therapy...so now he is less busy. I am setting a boundary- no more hurt from him. I am done. I am not going back. He has hurt me for the very last time... and I now truly see him as a fake. I no longer care to talk to him, but I am so sad...it is like he was abusing the relationship by saying one thing and doing another. He says I am hurt and I am pushing him away, and I say...yup...far far away. He asked for my forgiveness and I said, not tonight, perhaps I will forgive you tomorrow. But truth be known... those are only words I cant frogive him this time... too often he is not consistant. I am just so sad for the loss. I cant trust him to be there any more. I told him nno more emdr... it is just confusing for me, and no more therapy. I needed him to care and he couldnt, he didn't. so I turn my back on him. Forgiveness...yes, but I cant forget. He knew how bad things were, He chose not to help...so why do I need him, I dont, I am alone...but alone is safe. Mark is not and never will be safe again... I cant trust him, so I am done...so be it. His choice hurt me too deeply to go back. I hate him for pretending to care. I really hate him right now.

sorry for the pitty pot, but I am just so imcredibly sad and lost, but it is better this way...tomorrow will be a brighter day. I should never have let him in.

thank you echoes and number9

(((mayo)))

I'm so sorry he didn't respond to you even after he told you to call or text if you needed to. I hope he didn't think it was okay not to respond. I hope he at least recognized his error. I'm sorry that it hurts so much and you don't think you can trust him anymore. I know that my feeling often change over time but this might be the right choice for you. I hope you can find some peace with the decision to quit therapy.

hugs

I didn't want to do it. I think in his 3rd or 4th txt he mentioned about being sorry, but he has done this before, too many times. I need someone who is consistant, some one who backs up their words with the actions they speak of.
thank you for your kindness.

Making Tough Decisions

_________________________________





Thought for the Day



"It is certain that we will all be faced with making very difficult decisions during of our lives. Some decisions are made especially difficult because doing what might seem to be the right thing for ourselves could potentially rip apart the fabric of our lives as we know it and plunge us into the anxiety filled unknown. No matter what choices you need to make, if they are the rightfully sound choices, then God will walk with you every step of your journey."

How weird that this was on my affirmation page for today.

Does this mean it was a good decision?

What about the EMDR? I do not know if it is worth it any more. I would have to find another T. Where would I begin? Could I even muster the energy to do so? Even though I made the break (I had to)the pain is so strong. What will ease it? I trusted him with everything...everything!

Sorry I am bleeding all over the boards, but I am lost, truly do not have a map, a plan. The EMDR opened some extremely tender places and there they lie... like a gaping hole. A wound that is too big too heal. I never had any other T. He was it. I sound so f...ing pathetic. It is the child that is wounded most of all. God help me.

Hang in there, and I think the next step will become clear for you. In the mean time we're here to support you.

starfishy

(((Mayo)))

Don't worry about how much or what you are posting. I would like to support you in any way I can. One thing I have done recently is gone to a consult T and that has been helpful because I've told the T up front that I'm not looking for another T. Maybe you could try someone to listen to you right now and not feel like they have to be your T forever.

It is just an idea and may not help at all but it is all I can come up with.

Thank you Incognito and Starfishy, and Alpaca. I just blasted T with both barrels. Sent a scathing txt- as mean as I could make it. He wont respond as i am doing my best to push him away. Part of me wants him to respond, part of me wants to erase him from my life forever. Because I dont want to go through this pain again- the latter is the biggger part. But the little me ...oops there is a txt from him, now.

He blasted me right back...holy shit...I am speechless.

(((((Mayo))))) I'm so sorry. I'm kind of helpless and can't find words, but I am here and listening and hugging lots.

Mayo so sorry you are having to experience this from your T. I don't believe he should have blasted you via a text message. This kind of failure on the part of a T (not responding or being there after you had an intense EMDR session) should never be left to texting. It requires face to face discussion and non-defensiveness on the part of the T. I think your T has lost his therapeutic perspective and this has become more of a personal matter to him which is not appropriate.

I know you feel like you are dying. I know that feeling when someone we trust and care about disappoints and hurts us. I'm sorry for your pain. Please keep posting to us and let us know what is happening.

Hugs
TN

Mayo,

I didn't see this until today, but thought I would take a stab at it. First of all, EMDR is highly risky with dissociative clients and has to be modified to prevent some pretty intense consequences that can happen if it is not modified with someone who is dissociative. Most T's who do EMDR know that it is important to be available for any emergency contact that might result from an EMDR session. Most of the time it is not need, but sometimes it can be (as in your case). What has your T's policy been on responding to texts or other outside contact? Has he given you a time frame within which to expect a response? I'm sorry that he didn't respond and you felt alone. That never feels good.

I want to say (forgive me because I can't remember all of the nuances of the relationship with your T) that it is very possible that these strong feelings you are having were brought up by the EMDR though they seem to be aimed at your T right now. As I said, EMDR with those who significantly dissociate can prematurely erode dissociative barriers and those barriers are there for a reason. It can really flood a client and be very destabilizing. I don't believe that your T should have blasted you back (I'm not clear what he said as you didn't say). It sounds like it would help if he could step back and not get sucked into this spiral with you. It also sounds like something that needs to be sorted out in session and not via text.

I'm really sorry that you are going through this turmoil and I hope that soon it is sorted out and you feel better.

Thank you Incognito, Blt, Starfishy, Yaku, TN, Echoes, and STRM... and everyone else.

I so appreciate your wonderful thoughts and support.
TN- I know you have been here... feeling this loss under different circumstances.
STRM- You have given me lots to think about, and good questions to clear up with him. I have always been allowed to txt as long as it is not abused; and I havn't. Also- you may be right about the effects of emdr. This is the first time he noticed dissociation. I knew it happened early on, but it hasn't happened in a long while. I never knew what it was- just thought it was some sort of emotionally dead zone, an empty room in my mind that I could explore safely. never knew it was a form of dissociating.(my husband and I had a bad argument last weekend and the safe dead zone just happened.

His blasting consisted of ...I guess more defending his actions, but he did apologize lots of times in other txts. STRM- the emdr just may be at the root of the anger... not sure- but great point. If you do not mind, I would like to copy and paste your post- not your name or the site, and discuss several point you brought up with him.

Today - he admitted that he was hurt and triggered and saddened by this whole thing. I realize my fault in this is that I minimized my need to talk to him.... asked intellectual questions about emdr and wht I was feeling. Never even mentioned that I needed him. I guess I expected him to be a mind reader. I just txted that to him, and in light of that revelation (with the help of my husband) I will see him on his terms. (earlier I suggested that we meet at a neutral location just to talk) He declined, as he should have.

I think this whole emdr stuff may be too much for me.

Thanks for your love and support everyone. Feeling a bit clearer.

Mayo

Mayo,

You are more than welcome to use anything that I wrote in the way you described. I hope that it helps to talk to your T about the issues coming up with EMDR.

I'm glad that you are going to continue to see him. I do think it is important to be able to state what you need. I also know how hard that is, but T's can't read our minds and it can lead to so many impasses that could be avoided if we were clear about what we needed. I know for me that sometimes I'm not sure what that is and that can be really frustrating.

Anyway, I hope that you are able to get to a better place with your T. It may be that backing off of the EMDR is the right thing to do right now.

T said that he wants to wait a few days before talking to me because I hurt him and he is triggered. He also said that he would see me through anything, but it scares him. No one has ever felt this way about me. I was pretty brutal to him-without just cause. That scares me too. No more emdr for me.

quote:

T said that he wants to wait a few days before talking to me because I hurt him and he is triggered. He also said that he would see me through anything, but it scares him.... That scares me too.

Mayo... I know you are very attached to him but these statements raise big red flags for me. My oldT was scared and it caused me horrible pain and trauma in the end. My current T is fearless and he always tells me that it's okay that I'm scared but if HE is scared then we are in a huge amount of trouble because someone needs to be in charge.

I truly wish you the best in dealing with this but it seems that your T is making your pain about HIM and how HE feels and that is never a good sign because it will end up contaminating the therapy.

I'm sorry for your anguish over this. I hope it works out for the best.

Hugs
TN

As I am reading this thread - I am having flashbacks to my youngT and our termination and I was preparing what I had to say to you Mayo.

Then I get to the bottom of the thread and True North has made her comments - TN and I have had a similar experience - and both us feel red flags about this exchange.

YOur T sounds like he is too inexperienced for the EMDR and the aftermath. Doing the EMDR is one thing - but all the care, consistency and attachment needs to be there for all the stuff that will follow from it. Seems like he was not prepared for this.

Clients like us are always going to send crazy and horrible texts and emails. Experienced T's know it is the crazy talking and their boundaries cause them not to take it personally. Your T has - and this worries me.

He needed to be there for you and he wasn't. When that has happened to me and my current T - we have had major discussions, i voice my anger, hurt and intense abandonment fears and my T faces up to what she did wrong and we repair. We repair together and we discuss, problem solve and share our feelings and ideas and plans to do things better.

My T doesn't say to me that I triggered her and she is hurt and she needs some time to get fixed. My T tells me that I confuse her and at times she doesn't know what to do - but never that I scare her.

Meet with him and see what he says, he needs to do some repair work. I wouldn't say it is all over, but see how you feel. There were a lot of similaries of what you did and what you have said here that happened to me - but you sound like you have a better relationship with your T than what I had with youngT.

Good Luck
Somedays

quote:

I truly wish you the best in dealing with this but it seems that your T is making your pain about HIM and how HE feels and that is never a good sign because it will end up contaminating the therapy.

TN- Unfortunately, I believe you are right. He did make it about him. I have poured over the txts to see of possibly it was not true, but it is. The deep work is contaminated, and while I have no trouble forgiving him, I can't trust him. He failed me when I most needed him...even he admits that, but admitting it does not help me. He knows he did to me... what my parents did to me- abandoned me in a hospital, where I was lied to by doctors and tortured by a nurse. T like my parents dumped me there and couldn't even visit- mom visited for a short while every few days, and my father never came. I was there for 3 1/2 weeks.

This was the target for the emdr, and the images and the experience never turned off when I left T. They got more and more intense. He knows I tend to minimize things and he told me to contact him- which I did, but he never replied. My fears grew- so I told him that I quit emdr, and I quit therapy. I was angry, and he was angry right back. He wouldn't help me, he didn't help me. The little girl was sad and lost until, my angry teenage protective side took over. (Not DID- just defenses used to fight the pain) One thing led to another - he was angry, I was deeply hurt and angry. Eventually he admitted that my anger scared him, and he was hurt and triggered, so he couldn't contact me for a few days until he grounded himself.

He apologized profusely, and I apoligized for my part of not being clear that I needed help-repair, repair and thats all good, but I don't know how to ever trust him again. He is still sweet T, but not safe T where the little girl is concerned. I have no idea how I could ever trust him again.

Does anyone see a way to repair this? I want to, but I don't see a way and it hurts so much. He failed.

Mayo, this reminds me so much of the reenactment that finally led to me leaving my former T. Except she didn't react to my anger like yours did, she simply confirmed to me that she wasn't the best T to help me at the time.

In this case it sounds like you have pretty ironclad reasons for NOT trusting your T any more. You needed to be able to trust him to handle whatever you dished out without getting too triggered himself and he failed at that. If he can't really handle you, it's more a reflection of him than it is of you, and maybe it's really a better idea to find a steadier T to work with.

I am sorry. I have a small inkling of how much this must hurt for you and I hope it all resolves OK.

Thanks BLT. The weird part is... he has been a T for over 30 years, and he is a doctor. 2 yrs ago we had a bad rupture and he ended up yelling at me- and told me to go. (out of his office) He was reading something I wrote about Christ.
After our repair...he told me then, that I was the first person ever to trigger his anger. I no longer felt comfortable discussing spiritual matters with him, so that changed our relationship somewhat.Now this has happened, and the little me has run for cover. I don't know what to talk to him about. I do- deeply respect him, though... well- I did.

Ahhhhh...I don't know what to do.

T is being the good attentive T. He called me on Saturday at 12:30 ish... just to check in... to see how I was doing. I didn't see his voicemail until Sunday morning. I apologized... we txt chatted for a bit...he said it was his wife's birthday, and that he would txt later or tomorrow.

That would be today.
I did not realize until this afternoon that in a way~ I was seeing if he would call or txt like he said. Well he did call. We talked about the EMDR and what happened.(I much prefer txting- easier to hide I guess.) After our conversation- very uneasy for me, I txted him with stuff. This left me activated and confused. I don't think I can go back to him.
Here's how it goes...

Me-(txt to T) I could be wrong, but I've never learned how to process and recover from that kind of pain- always ignored it pushed it down...away. So I don't know how to deal. Because of what happened, you became part of that pain, I reall don't see how that is...but that is what seems to be.
I don't know how to separate you out of it and deal with the reality of what it was...(meaning the hospital experience) and trust you to help me through that...stuck, I guess.

T's reply- Yes, that makes sense. That is a core issue for us all. Well, I played the role of abandonment which was powerfully amplified by your deeply painful history. You now have to reassess your experiences with me and decide if I am like "all the rest" as I think you said. I can't do your work, just my own. Wish it wasn't like that, but it is. Only you can learn to forgive, only you can learn to trust and take the risk that entails, only you can decide when to protect. See ya...
Then he added- That my dear is the work, have at it, and above all else, trust your own experience. It is the ground worth standing on. If that means saying good bye based on your best sense of things, goodbye it must be. But for me, I will never close the door.

Me- I choose to forgive you now, I chose to forgive you last week, but the trust thing... much harder~ for the lil me that is a strong part of who I am...for better or worse. Thank you for keeping the door open. Time heals- too, I suppose. If I could only separate you from it...?

T's reply- that is the work. Are the two of us strong enough to change that space to a more trusting one? I think we are... and all of you, every part of you for the better... there is just a time and a place for everything. We need to be free to choose...


That was it... And I just dont know- I dont know what to do... so for now, I will do nothing.

Does anyone have any thoughts???

Mayo,

I'm sorry this has been such a struggle. I think I can see where your T was coming from in those last texts though I think that would have been better left for a non-text encounter, but that is just me due to past misreading of tone in text format with my T. Anyway, have you considered seeking a consultation? When I had my major rupture with T last fall and took two weeks off (well she had major stuff going on too) I sought out a consultation and it really helped. Just a thought.

I hope you can sort this out soon. I know that for me I was so confused and wondered if I was protecting myself by leaving (if I quit for good) or making the biggest mistake and missing the most powerful healing that I could be doing if I left. For the most part I feel like it led to some really big growth, but I do know that things have been much different since both in good ways and in some not so good ways too. It is hard to know at times which path is the right one to choose.

quote:

Only when we are brave enough to explore the darkness will we discover the infinite power of our light." Brené Brown

Thanks STRM T works alone. He is a doctor and has been doing T work for 30 years. I would not even know how to go about a consultation. But we are going to talk eventually- not this week though.

I repeated your quote because the darkness is where the angry girl lives. The one that lashed out at T, the one that he says scares him. If this is so, why does he still want to go there? I don't get it... no good will come from checking her out. I will hurt T and push him away if he explores the angry girl side. Best left alone- no good things will result.

Ah well... maybe it is time to distance myself from him anyway. No EMDR, no spiritual discussions, no investigating dark girl, not much left. Maybe we could just chat about present life...which is bubbling along fine,

quote:

The one that lashed out at T, the one that he says scares him. If this is so, why does he still want to go there? I don't get it... no good will come from checking her out. I will hurt T and push him away if he explores the angry girl side. Best left alone- no good things will result.

Mayo,

I know it feels like no good will come from working with that part of you, but I think you might be surprised what kind of growth could come from that if you can stand to go there. I don't like that T said that she scares him because I don't think that will be helpful to the process, but there is SO much to be gained from going there and talking to this part of you. I understand the fear and the extremely intense push back that can come from probing into these dark places, but I also know from my own experience that once you get past the "toughness" that underneath all of that anger and rage is a scared child that really isn't all that scary after all. It is so important to work with the really protective parts of self (I'm speaking Ego states here not DID..though for me it is DID) because they are what is between you and some of the most healing work you will do.

quote:

if you can stand to go there.

IF?

Thanks for your words of encouragement. Tomorrow is the day. What do I do? What do I say? It has been 2 wks, and I no longer feel the need...the attachment. Maybe we talked through all we can and it is time to go separate ways. Idk...I just don't know.