I have only had one go at EMDR. It was confusing and confronting and I am not ready to repeat it as I found it quite hard to cope with my feelings the next day.

My new P used it to so I could try and let go of my old P and get behind the emotions that drive me to stay with him even though he is quite damaging to me.

I do feel since that I may be able to let go.

I am really looking forward to hearing other people's experiences. I would especially like to know how it has been successful and how you cope with the feelings afterwards.

EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) is a treatment used in treating trauma. It is based on the idea that when we use both sides of the brain to process traumatic events from our past, their impact and/or intensity is lessened or in some cases eliminated. From what I know (which is not much), it can be done in different ways. In my experience, we began with targeting a specific memory and assessing its level of disturbance for me on a scale. I then recalled the targeted memory while my brain was stimulated bilaterally (can be done in several ways, but involves sensation alternating both sides of the body). I continued processing through traumatic memories that popped up in the process. Theoretically, you keep processing until the level of disturbance gets to 0, although I have never gotten there, but 2-3 in some attempts. It can be used to create new neurological pathways in the brain to "train the brain" to react or process differently by using positive imagery as well. I have read very little about it, so only know what my experience has been and I know there are different ways to use it. It can be very intense both during the process and in the days following. It has helped me some, but was not a cure in my experience.

Hi folks,

I'm back in town, & had my first return session with my T this morning. We will start EMDR next week - for now I'm supposed to choose some memories to work with, particularly around feelings of getting things really wrong and being overwhelmed. Problem is that every memory I think of sort of dissolves when I think of it... when it comes down to it none of it seems significant enough to work with. She wants early stuff and when I look at it it just seems kinda like mediocre parenting and little ego wounds, not like Trauma with a capital T.

Has anyone had any success with working with Little Hurts instead of Big Hurts? Is this useful?

The other thing that happened today is my T told me she's leaving in 3 months. I don't feel too much about this - I haven't been feeling so close to her lately with the problems between us and then two weeks off. But I am wondering about whether to persist with someone else or not. Basically I'm functioning fine, and I'm starting to feel like a malingerer!

Hope you all are well.

Hi Jones and BB,
I'd really like to second what BB said here:

quote:

I think "little hurts" can be just as traumatic or even more traumatic than the "big hurts." Some of the little stuff bothers me much more than the big, because of the context in which they happened. I think they can be capital T, for sure, under all circumstances, and especially if- a. you are sensitive and/or intelligent b. they happened when you were quite small and without defenses- or for a host of other reasons.

This is SO true for me! I think the "little" stuff is often what gets swept under the rug. It's these things that- because they seem smaller- don't get processed and over time they grow and grow IMO. Some of my most painful memories aren't the bloody/gory obvious traumas- because I was allowed to feel bad about those a little more. But the everyday moments, that got overlooked, and my parents' lack of attunement/love on very basic levels... now that's the stuff that gets me. The simple stuff, that I didn't get- that I DID deserve... that's the stuff I can't ever get back, and that's the stuff that I often find myself recounting to my t- even if it sounds SO INCREDIBLY SILLY.

Also, I think the little moments that our caregivers mishandled are illustrative of what some of the bigger messages we got were. IE, one time, my dad was helping me make my bed. I really enjoyed spending this time with him because it was rare, and I wanted to show him that I would make my bed without leaving ANY wrinkles in the comforter (hey, I was a little obsessive, that's the kind of thing I did when I was bored!!!). Anyway, I told him I could do it and I was expecting him to want to see me do it... but his response was far less than ideal... he said "go ahead and do it then" and then he just left the room. I was SO deflated, and I was so sad. I wanted him to be proud of me and I wanted him to be impressed, but instead, I didn't fit his mold of being wholly dependent on him and needing him, therefore I didn't deserve his attention. He actually never helped me make my bed again, and I hated that blanket from that point forward. This was definitely a SMALL event, but it was hurtful. And because I wasn't "allowed" to be hurt about this, I just held onto it forever, never dealing with it until it came up in therapy recently. I was able to connect my growing independence with the receeding care I got from my parents... and able to see how the more capable I was, the less they were there for me. It was a pretty big deal and really plays into why I don't want to grow up- I don't want to do things on my own because, in my head, it means people will leave me and emotionally abandon me.

Well, that's a long example, but I think it illustrates my point well. I hope this helps Jones, and I too am sorry about your t. With this t or with another, I hope one day you begin you value your experiences a little more... I think you tend to brush yourself off- perhaps like you were brushed off- but I think you'll find a lot of healing in the lowercase experiences...

-CT

I looked into EMDR when my T suggested it, although he knew little about it and would have had to bring in an outside T to do it with me. I read up on it and decided it was not for me for a number of reasons. It seems, according to the research I read, that it is not as effective with complex, chronic childhood trauma. It works more effectively with big event trauma, such as being assaulted, surviving a fire or accident, witnessing a murder etc. It is used a lot in treating war veterans too. The main thing they talk about it that it should be only done by a well trained certified EMDR therapist. Priority is establishing a strong trust and safety with this T and then you need to work on coping skills because the effect of doing it that lasts for days. In my case it would have meant starting over to develop a new trusting relationship with this new EMDR T and to be honest....it has taken me 2 years to just almost feel safe with my T so it seemed almost impossible to do that with a new T in a short period of time. The thought of talking to a relative stranger about my past trauma was overwhelmingly frightening and so we tossed out the idea of EMDR. Of course, I'm always interested in what others have to say about it. I may have attempted it if my own T was qualified to do it with me.

TN

Dear all,

Thanks so much for your input on this. It's really nice to have the validation that it's okay to bring in whatever I have, and it's really helpful to hear about the lower-case experiences that have affected you. Seablue,

quote:

the difficulty of really feeling the memories and to the fear of doing it wrong, even when my T tells me there is no wrong way to do it. To me, it seems way too calculated - like I am supposed to feel and emote on queue. It can feel very awkward. It took several sessions to be able to really feel and even now it sometimes just fades away, as you described.

this is exactly right. Actually I think I don't WANT to go into the feeling at the moment - because I'm busy! I'm working! I'm functioning great and getting stuff done! And this state doesn't always come easy for me so I don't want to stop and emote all over the place.... It is easier to dismiss it, as CT so astutely notes (thank you CT). I just don't want to go into that feeling of being weak, especially not with the T leaving now on the cards.

Yet at other times the bad feelings just reach up and grab me, so I know I need to do this and take it seriously. I think I might start with some stuff from when I was older, because it's easier to feel strongly about, it feels more 'real' and also less explored to me. I do wish I could shake that feeling of doing it the wrong way, but I guess that's the whole point of the exercise.

Thanks for your sympathies on my T finishing. BB, this is really lovely & means a lot to me:

quote:

But strong people deserve healing too. Maybe you'll be able to reach a "higher level" than functioning fine...and do lots and lots of good in the world, or find real joy-

I might start another thread on the T-finishing business at some point, to keep this thread for EMDR talk.

T

TN, I meant to say too that it makes a lot of sense to have not gone with the EMDR under those circumstances. I am dreading the thought of beginning again with someone else, so yeah - bringing someone else in for a specific function like EMDR would be a really big ask. Ts are not like plumbers. The relationship is everything - you can't just have any old one in. Then on the other hand, they do get their hands mucky unblocking all kinds of subterranean crap....

Hi Jones

Firstly sorry to hear about your T leaving, sorry too that you haven't felt close to her recently. I guess that makes the parting a little less hard for you in some ways, but dificult in others. Hard too to start some new work like EMDR, with someone who will be shortly leaving. Of course only you can decide whether it's right to start again with someone else, I know I would find that so very hard, but I also know that there are times when I function just fine but am still so very not fine inside, where nobody sees, so would need to keep going.

I would and do, find it very hard to concentrate on the little hurts. As soon as I do, then all the gigantic grotty ones come tumbling out as if to remind that they are there too!! Now if my T and I decide we will gently and carefully start to look at those gigantic grotty ones, then they won't be brought to mind as I find myself in denial about their existence!! Weird huh?! I guess that's why therapy takes so long, this on-going battle with our brains.

But I suppose it's good to start somehing new with small and do-able pieces of work, so I hope you might find something you can bring to your next session that fits the bill on both sides, and that you feel comfortable with looking at in EMDR. If you can post about your experience it would be good, but only if you are able of course. I really hope that it is helpful for you Jones.

Good to have you back too

starfish

Hi Jones - "Welcome back!" from your travels!

I do not have any experience with EMDR, but I just wanted to add my sympathies about your T leaving. That is no small deal and I hope you take the time to talk about your feelings about that, with her and here, too. And I would like to add my sentiments that you are not a malingerer. But I have had the same feelings about the supposed "little hurts" and I'm glad you voiced them because I continue to need reassurances like the ones you got from BB and CT (see below) and also like the ones in the discussion between Wynne and AG on the Really, really mad thread.

BB and CT, thank you so much for your beautiful explanations of little hurts and big hurts. I really needed to hear that along with Jones. My T keeps reminding me that having a mother who was never tuned in to me really does matter. The hurts of "omission" far outweighed the hurts of "commission". Long-term, low-level hurts really do add up, especially when they are consistent and reinforced periodically with short-term, more intense events. And the message I got was the same as you described, anything I needed was a bother and I didn't deserve anything good. One of the big things I'm trying to get to is the feeling of ever hoping for or expecting anything from her. All I can do so far is remember how it felt to be disappointed, but only as an affirmation of what I already "knew". Other than that I was just always afraid of her and always avoided her because I "knew" she hated me but didn't know why. I believe that this disconnect is a big part of what keeps me from connecting with my own children on the level they need me to. I believe I'm already doing somewhat better than she did but that's not nearly good enough...I know I've already hurt them inadvertently with my cluelessness...and the remorse of that is part of what drives me to keep going, even though there is this message inside that keeps telling me I'm making too big a deal out of this. And even if I didn't have kids who would benefit, there would be other people in my life who would.

And I have to keep reminding myself that it's okay to receive good things from my T, that what I'm receiving from her I can turn around and give to my children so they get a better message than I got.

And I love BB's quote that Jones highlighted, about "functioning fine" isn't good enough...that really got to me...for so long I've just been gritting my teeth on some things, just trying to "deal with it"...but that's not living joyfully at all. Thank you all for being here and sharing your experiences...you just have no idea how much you all help me on a daily basis.

SG

Hi Starfish,

Thanks so much for the thoughts & the welcome back. It is weird, my T said she was leaving last week and this week we're going to start the EMDR AND some couples therapy with her and my husband's T. I guess she wants to Get Some Stuff Done before she goes. I fear this means I'm going to have to engage some feelings that I took out of the loop the instant I heard she was leaving! Ones that had barely made it back into the picture after our recent 'breach'.

I have been round and round in circles trying to think of what to start with - nothing's good enough. But this is the message I grew up with, I know. In early years I think I got this message from lots and lots of little incidents, rather than big ones - so I have the concern that TN mentions about whether it will work well for this. Anyway, I will give it a go, have some of that stuff ready and some of the bigger stuff from later, too, and see what happens.

Actually my husband has been amazing on this. He has been doing EMDR for a few months now and last night I trusted him with my confusion and worry about it. He (who is NOT traditionally comfortable with therapy) said he found it really relaxing - "like the opposite of a big blood-curdling therapy session". He gave me a cuddle and said, in the sweetest, funniest way, "you don't need to have been attacked by the neighbourhood clown to be traumatised - you can be traumatised just the way you are."

It's taken us so much hard work to be able to share this kind of closeness. So much of our relationship (and most of my close relationships) has been based on me being the caregiver, the less traumatised one. It was so lovely to feel that acceptance and acknowledgement of me the way I am and my past the way it is.

So, I guess EMDR has done me some good before it's even started....

I will post how it goes - Thursday is the day.

Take care.

J

Hi SG - thanks to you too for the welcome and for the sympathies.

I often think of that "really, really mad" thread. I guess the affirmation about "little hurts" is one of those things that I am just going to need to hear a lot. But it's hard because I am really scared of victimising myself, dwelling in pain instead of making the most of what I have and have been given. BB's comment is really valuable because it reminds me it's ok - and good - to want MORE from my life. And if I need to go into this stuff because I can't just do better on my own, that's the way it is. I'm trying to remember that at a certain level my therapy is (this board aside ) between me and me. No one else is there to judge me for hogging attention or dramatizing or whatever.

Wait, I guess my T is still there... not that she judges like that, but do you like how I've invisibilized her already?! Uh, yeah, maybe I will have to post on her leaving-which-doesn't-bother-me-at-all at some stage....

SG I love that you are working hard to give your kids more, to be a fuller person so that you are available to them. Imagine knowing that your mother actively went through this process to help her be there for YOU.

Brava.

J

Hi J,
I guess I am too new at this, because my theory (after reading all of the posts- probably isn't a good one)is "if it isn't broke, then why fix it. Why search for all of the little stuff which may or may not have affected you.

quote:

Problem is that every memory I think of sort of dissolves when I think of it... when it comes down to it none of it seems significant enough to work with.

It is probably me, but at this point, i am not looking for hurts. I know I do have a tendency to gloss over stuff. I tell my T- "you know, shit happens- no blame- it is just what was."My T has said, that it is not how big or small the trauma is, it is how you think/feel about it- How it affects you. Everyone is different in this regard.
I tried EMDR twice. The first time I got a little freaked by it, could not find a safe place' the second time, I was also worried about doing it wrong (I think someone said that)
Let me know how it goes for you, Jones.
Best of everything

Hi Helle,

I think maybe there is a time for looking for hurts and a time to just sit and consolidate the strengths. I know it was the desire to be in a better place in my life that pushed me into the therapy in the first place. And if I'm really really honest with myself, however much those memories 'dissolve' there are other memories that I still really want to be heard on. I want someone to know my experience and to help me integrate it into some full, rich understanding of my life and myself, instead of carrying the wounds around like little crosses.

So that pushes me to the EMDR. But I feel like my T is going, so she's not going to be that person for me anyway. Ok, ok, I'm now going to make a post about my T leaving.

Thanks for the thoughts, Helle.

J

EMDR has worked wonders for me. The results are pretty unpredictable, my T is not doing it according to the book, and I like it that way. He is not certified, but I trust him as I have been seeing him for a few years. We are learning together. We do it quite different than Shapiro directs but it WORKS for me. I would highly recommend at least trying it. I dont rate my SUD reaction, the positive belief I eventually accept is not what is dicussed during the session , it's what my mind congures up as it begins to process the memories. The traumatic memory can be rehaped into many different forms. They are not wiped out but blocked in one way or another. And, I do have complex PTSD and it is working on multiple memories of abuse. Even though I am still with my husband, I'm able to work through some of the worst of the past with him. It can be intense afterwards for a day or two. It usually takes me that amount of time to process the memory. Each week, we tackle a new one...possibly even a group of traumas all somewhat similiar...last week I was able to bundle them together and block them out. Pretty fascinating stuff. I'm going to keep doing it as long as I can.

Hey Lizzygirl - I love the sound of the trust in your relationship with your T - and the flexibility & creativity of what you are doing with him. I'd love to hear more if there's more you can describe.

I thought I was going in for my first EMDR session today, turned out it was the first set-up session. It was exhausting, and I wish we had got into the actual EMDR, which is what I was expecting.

Instead we ran through a whole lot of difficult experience very quickly as we discussed the things we could work on. My T was really good, really present and empathetic. But there were one or two things that I know I've told her before and she didn't remember, which stung a little bit. Aside from that I felt really heard, and it was nice, and that sort of meant that I kept going with bringing things up. I felt ok at the time, a bit teary here and there, but not too connected to the things we were discussing because we were moving fast.

Then towards the end she asked me to think of somewhere that I could imagine as a safe place as we do the EMDR, and suddenly as I thought of one I just fell apart & started sobbing. She said maybe I could have a safe person there as well and that just made it worse. I couldn't stop myself. We ended up going 10 minutes over time, which is really unusual for her, but gave me the chance to pull it together.

I'm not sure why the safe place gave me that reaction. It was the nicest place I could think of and as I thought of it I thought of all the limitations of it and everything that was wrong with it. And when I thought of my safe person I thought of how far away he is and that I can't have him close. So it was like nothing will ever be enough - there is nothing nice enough to balance all this shit.

And then I just veered away from it all. I thought of how minor and stupid all the things were that I'd been talking about, and I told her that, and that allowed me to stop crying. She said it wasn't minor or stupid, it was abuse, and that it was the voice of my parents saying that, refusing to acknowledge what went on. And she told me I deserved to have things aired, and I deserved the chance to heal. She took me into the safe place and it was really nice.

When I came out I got really confused. I thought it was late afternoon but it was morning, and then I got lost in the mall. But when I got back to work I was able to take a really quiet afternoon, which I desperately needed. All afternoon/evening I've felt super sensitive to light and sound, so I've tried to just control that and it's helped. Just sitting here writing on the boards has really helped restore me, and my husband's been really supportive, because he's been through this too. He tells me that this set-up stuff is the hardest part, the EMDR itself is much easier in his experience.

Unfortunately my T is away next week, so it will be nearly two weeks till we get to that. I'll let you know how it goes.

Hi all,

Well, I finally got my next session with my T yesterday, and we got to return to the EMDR work. Again we didn't really start it, though!! But I'm glad we didn't - she just took time with me to see how I'd gone after the last session, which was really too much, and to set up the "safe place" and the pen-thing properly - more about that shortly.

It felt really good that she knew the last session was too much and was concerned about me. She told me the 'spacing out'/dissociating I did after the session (which ended up with me going to the wrong appointment time this week) was evidence that what we are talking about was traumatic. I still find this REALLY HARD to conceptualise - the closer we get to the material the harder it is to believe that it means anything.

But then last night when I left I did it again, kind of worse, had a 'blank spot' and ended up realising I was on the wrong train, several stops in the wrong direction, and wasn't sure how that had happened, couldn't remember even getting on the train. It's a weird feeling - I do a lot of 'daydreaming' and always have but it's not usually that intense. I've asked my husband to come and meet me after my next appointments so I feel a bit safer afterwards.

So for those who haven't done EMDR but are interested, the 'safe place' thing was about being able to take myself mentally to somewhere that felt nice. I had to imagine this place, the way it looked, felt and sounded, while focusing on my T's pen, which she was moving about a foot away from my face. I found it hard to do because last session, when we tried it, the safe place made me cry really hard, and this session the place kept jumping around. Something that made me feel safe one time wouldn't work when I tried it the next time. I think we have found somewhere stable, though. I was allowed a safe person as well as the place, and that made it easier. Next time she said we are going to bring my cat in as well, because I was so close to her, but that makes me cry too, because she's dead now! And then we will start working on one of the events.

T has warned me that next session might be rough. I am trying not to unpick the event in my mind beforehand, which is what I might ordinarily do, but would make me feel a bit yuck. And at the same time when I do think about it I think - but it wasn't ANYTHING! My T said "I am here to tell you that these events were ---" Actually I can't remember what she said - that they were bad in some way and made her feel bad - I can't remember - but also she had to agree when I said that lots of other people experience much worse. She says it's about me, not them, and it's not a competition, and all this stuff that intellectually I know but deep down I just don't get it. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to get.

But I felt relieved that she was back. The last couple of weeks have been a bit horrible but it's like I can only really get that now that it's over. And I know this is affecting me and that I need to be a bit careful with myself at the moment, even if it's only because I'm a sensitive wee flower!

Thanks for listening - more about this next time.

J

Hi Jones

Thanks for posting more about your experiences with EMDR - I’m really interested in it as my T does EMDR (though not with me) and it’s something I could potentially do so it’s really good to hear about how you find it and what it does for you.

Am I getting it right in thinking that you already know the thing that you’re trying to reach via EMDR - or is it something you are trying to remember and as you go along you are getting flashes of remembering it? It’s just that your comment:

quote:

am trying not to unpick the event in my mind beforehand, which is what I might ordinarily do, but would make me feel a bit yuck. And at the same time when I do think about it I think - but it wasn't ANYTHING!

really makes sense to me in that that’s what I always do, have something that’s the focus of therapy and end up thinking it to death so it ceases to have any conscious impact on me (but stays unresolved all the same) And I always think oh it’s no big deal anyway too.

The bit in your reply that really got to me was your describing about finding a safe place (I am totally the same, if one day I find a safe place that seems to work, the next day it ceases to work as a safe place anymore :sigh: ) but I’m so glad you posted that your safe places, and safe people made you cry! I especially relate to your thinking of your cat as a safe person - makes total sense to me. Something like that would never have occurred to me - you are so creative! Can I steal your ideas?

I should say that I’m not glad you cried, but glad because how you described trying to find a safe place is how it is for me - I’ve always assumed a safe place has to be somehow positive and make me feel good and instead any safe place I’ve come up with has made me feel bad (in the painful I’ve lost it don’t have it now or never had it sense) and so I never regarded it as ‘safe’ at all. You’ve really given me a whole new perspective on it there.

I’m glad you’ve got your T back - it must have been really hard for you not having her around. And Jones, (little flower ) I hope you do take extra care of yourself (and find a few other people to do it too) - you deserve it! And fingers crossed for the next session.

Hi LL -

It's nice to see you, you've been a bit quiet of late and I was wondering how you are.

Yep, we talked about a whole bunch of stuff we could work with last session and this session she came back saying she wanted to work with one incident in particular - the one I found hardest to talk about (sigh!). I remember heaps of stuff, but I definitely do the thinking-it-to-death thing and can't hold on to any meaning. Yet I know I still nurse these things deep inside like they are... I don't know... life changing events. Maybe that's the key - that even if they are no big deal to my adult eyes or in the grand scale of things, for me they were life-changing, somehow. Anyway, I'll tell you about the event after the session, in the interests of NOT thinking it to death first.

I think my T and I were both surprised about my reaction to the safe place/person. But it is true in my life, too - that I always remember the limits of the good stuff, its end, its loss, how it wasn't really good enough. Sorry you have this feeling too. But I'm hoping to get the hang of being able to stay with that nice feeling more, maybe this will help.

You can totally steal my ideas! Actually the cat was my T's idea, but I take partial credit because I was wearing a t-shirt with a great big cat picture on it that day.

I asked my T if I could jump from place to place when I was finding the place I'd named didn't work but somewhere else (with the same person) did - she said I could move around in the place we'd named, and later we could set up two places, but I couldn't just jump from one to the other. Had to respect the space-time continuum, boo. But moving around from room to room helped, and she was ok with that.

Thanks for caring, LL - it's lovely.

J

Jones

Thanks for posting so openly about what happened, it's so helpful for all of us who have never experienced it or those (like me) to whom it was once suggested but chickened out.
Can see where you are coming from with the safe place issue. Have you ever felt really safe anywhere, real or imagined? I find it really hard - feel I can never be totally safe, that memories are all around the corner waiting for me. If I take myself mentally to a safe place, I find myself looking for 'him', no matter where I am

Do you plan to identify the problems initially to look at? Do you start with the easiest or the hardest? Does the image get worse before it gets better? Think that's what frightened me... but everything I have read points to an amazing sense of peace and release afterwards. Too many questions? Feel free to ignore!!

Am glad you've been able to finally do this work Jones, all credit to you I am glad too that you feel a good connection to your T again-that's so important. When is your next session? -not too long I hope.

starfish

Hi Starfish -

I don't know. The safe place I ended up with is from my recent adulthood - somewhere I felt really good because it was connected with a special friend who I can be completely myself with. I can't think of anywhere in my childhood that I felt safe, exactly - all the places I could think of feel to me either really lonely and unsettled or like I have to be on my best behaviour. My T suggested the beach works for a lot of people, but not for me. And I can't imagine somewhere unreal, I don't think, because it feels *too* unreal and it's too easy for me to imagine it unsafe!

I think it takes time to imagine the right place, and to figure out what kind of images are going to create that feeling of safety for you, so I'm glad we're going slowly with this bit before getting into the actual traumas. It's easier with someone's help.

Yep, we have spent the last couple of sessions identifying the problems to look at. My husband tells me this has been the hardest part for him, and the actual EMDR part has given him that lovely peaceful feeling. Certainly I am finding this part difficult.

My T wants to work with something that feels hardest for me at the moment, but I'm sure that is a decision she's taking with care - and that it could well be different with a different client. I'm sure if I said I wasn't ready to deal with that she'd do something else, but the thing is that it's sort of out of the box now, I'm already thinking about it and I'm ready to move forward with it, to go with the feeling instead of resisting or minimizing it.

This is a really hard sort of bind because minimizing the feelings allows me to stay away from that consuming sense of sadness. But a comment BB made about kind of entering-into-the-music of therapy is helping me to move towards it more . I figure this is the chance for me to really explore this and be heard, to get some care and understanding about it, to have someone with me while I figure out why this is so important, what it means for my life.

Fortunately it's not long at all till next session - Tuesday. Thank goodness.

J

Okay, now I'm the one convinced my T has found this board - she was sooooo good today, and I feel HEAPS better - like she knew exactly what was going on, and knew exactly what to do.

Unfortunately this means no EMDR still!!! So I reckon she's reading this thread and wants to turn it into some kind of never-ending cliff-hanger for the benefit of you lot... better than Lost. But whereas I was feeling really antsy to just get this over and done with before, now I am really happy that she's going slow. Again we just worked on the safe place, and that's what we'll do next week too. She told me (her second personal disclosure ever - last week she told me she likes cats) she's had about 20 years of therapy herself and there's nothing worse than feeling rushed by your therapist. And it's true I was feeling really rushed, and anxious about not being able to get the safe place right. It makes me feel really cared for that she wants to be sure about that before we go into the trauma stuff, and she's being really careful about checking my responses after each session. I was a bit dissociative again last time so it's good to slow down. It's making the whole EMDR process feel a lot less scary.

J

I dont expect the memories to be wiped clean or eliminated and that's OK. I feel like I'm knocking them off one at a time, and I may be unsuccessful and have to tackle the memory again at another time. I decided to tackle my traumas chronologically, so there are big ones and small ones mixed in. Seems to work for me. When my mind starts to que in on one of the memories we have worked on, it starts to let me send out feelers. But as soon as this starts, the feelers are either blocked or diverted completely away from the trauma or into a different reality than what actually happened. If I really focused on the trauma, I can certainly remember it in all it's glory, it just doesn't have the same impact on me it used to. I too have the most sensitivity to the EMDR the first day or two and not during the session. As far as you have trouble blocking, maybe you need to try to relax with the memory...I know thats sounds impossible,
but I try to let my mind "Play" with the memories, but just a little at a time, and then the reframing starts to take shape. Sometimes it has hit me like a ton of bricks, other times its a very slow process. Interesting stuff.
I'd like to keep this thread going....I wont have another EMDR session until my T returns in 5 weeks (help) but I am happy to share my experiences so far.

Lizzygirl

I don't think the memories will ever completely go - for me they feel like they are too much a part of me to ever completely vanish. I too hope that I'm knocking then one by one, slowly but surely, they never go altogether, are but some can be thought about a bit and feel awful but ok.

quote:

but I try to let my mind "Play" with the memories, but just a little at a time, and then the reframing starts to take shape. Sometimes it has hit me like a ton of bricks, other times its a very slow process. Interesting stuff.

Hmm wouldn't it be helpful if our memories warned us about which memories we were going to deal with ok, and which were going to be the ton of bricks ones?? And why sometimes do the ok ones turn into a ton of bricks when your back is turned for just a moment...?

starfish

***************TRIGGER WARNING****************
[The post below describes some self-violence and could be triggering for people - I'm sorry I didn't label it before, I had trouble recognising it as a traumatic memory and then admitting that it might affect people, including myself]

BB, all of what you write above is really current for me - about being confused about the nature of events, the validity of having feelings over them, the need to 'toughen up'.

I want to write a little about the incident my T wants to target with EMDR, because it's a good example of all that confusing stuff, and because I'm trying to get a handle on it. I'm not sure if it's 'bad' to write about this beforehand or not, but I'm a bit tired of sitting alone with this one!

When I was 11, I slammed my thumb in a car door while we were away on a camping holiday. It doubled in size and turned black, but because it was a long weekend and we were on holiday (though we weren't far from a town), my parents decided not to take me to the Dr or ER - instead they gave me some hefty painkillers and a pocketknife, and told me I needed to put a hole in the nail to take the pressure off. I didn't want to, of course, but my stepdad told me that if I didn't do it he'd be happy to do it for me, which I took as a threat because I was scared of him. So I sat there for half an hour or an hour or so and made a hole in the nail as slowly as I could.

That's it, that's all there was to it... Starfish, what you say about the memories being different at different times is true: sometimes, like now, I have no feeling connected to this, sometimes it makes me sick to think of - when I told my T I could hardly talk! And other times it's just like this ordinary unfortunate childhood incident (and I know what they told me at the time was true: that if they took me to a doctor the dr would just have done the same thing).

I think part of the difference in how it strikes me is to do with how much of the surrounding dynamic I am conscious of and connect with at a time: the fact that my mum was so needy over any hurt of hers, that I knew my stepdad was enjoying the thought of doing that to me, and so on.

And then the other thing is that it was such a CLEAR message to toughen up. To be hard and to take control of my pain or someone else was going to hurt me worse. Ugh.... My T tells me this incident makes her angry, and sometimes I can see it - sometimes I think, those sons of b*tches! Then it's gone again, and I wonder what I'm whining about. I have the sense that anyone who has been through REAL trauma sure wouldn't know what the problem was. Maybe that figure is actually my mum, whose suffering was always the "real" suffering. But I am trying to hang on to the right to understand this as significant to me, big or small, it's mine, my history, my feelings, I'm allowed them.


J

Jones,
I was both horrified and very angry when I read this; with your mother and your stepfather, not you! I don't care if the doctor would have done the same thing, you were 11 for heaven's sake. They should have been focused on taking care of you and soothing you while the medical professional took care of you. Instead you were handed a knife and told to injure yourself further? And no matter how scared you were (and I think this would be incredibly scary for a kid of that age) you went ahead and did it both out of a knowledge that no more care was forthcoming AND there was the threat of punishment in the form of help, so you wouldn't even be able to protest it. How very awful for a child to be in a place where they KNOW that they're mother is putting her needs before theirs (it's absolutely suppposed to be the other way around) and that there is a sadist just waiting in the wings to hurt them. This makes me want to climb into a time machine and go back and get you and take you to the doctor's and then take care of you.

I think back to when my girls where that age and it actually makes me feel physically ill to think of treating them that way. I mean, I STILL would do a lot more than that and they're 17 and 19. YOU ARE NOT WHINING!

You deserved SO MUCH MORE than what you got. You had every right to expect your parents to get up off their butts and get you to a doctor, holiday or no holiday. That's what emergency rooms are for!! I hope I'm not upsetting you, I just had a such a strong, visceral reaction to reading this and I thought you should know that. It was absolutely heartbreaking to read.

((((((Jones))))))))

AG

quote:

I have the sense that anyone who has been through REAL trauma sure wouldn't know what the problem was.

I've been through real trauma (and do NOT ask how many years it has taken for me to say that and mean it) and this is not trivial, nor is there any difficulty whatsoever in understanding why this is difficult memory and could still be affecting you.

((((((((((AG))))))))))))

Thanks for these comments. They mean a lot. I'll come back and respond more when I've done some processing.

J

Jones

Trauma is trauma - simple. There is no grading of severity I don't think. It is what it is to the person involved.

I have experienced many types of trauma, some I could never post here bacause of the content but I have also experienced other traumas that have been equally distressing (some more so) that would maybe be perceived as minor in comparison. So maybe we must learn to judge ourselves and not be influenced by the world's view of what is a problem or not.

I think your experience that you posted was truly awful - deeply traumatic for anybody, let alone a child of 11. It taught you once more how your needs were unimportant compared to those around you and that takes a lot of unlearning now doesn't it?

Hug Jones

starfish

{{{{{{{Jones}}}}}}}



Jones, first may I please say "what AG said" because she said it so well.

I read your post this morning and found it so disturbing I haven't been able to get it out of my mind all day...and that was just from reading about it. In fact, whenever you post about your bast*rd of a stepdad, I find it disturbing to my core. When you were 4, how he told you you couldn't have your dad when you missed him, and to stop upsetting your mother. And the way he'd force you to have eye contact while screaming at you...forgive me if this is too blunt, but if someone did that to me, it would feel very much like rape (psychologically, anyway, in that eye contact is terribly intimate and should only ever be voluntary, never forced while someone is raging at you - how horrible). May I please just say with as much emphasis as possible, this is NOT "no big deal". IMO, this monster psychologically terrorized you and there is just no question that it "counts" as trauma. In fact his behavior seemed to get to the very heart of trauma in terms of keeping you in fear all the time. I can't imagine what it was like for you to have had to live with the constant threat of his cruelty and sadism, and how it was for you to have your mum stand by and not protect you from it.

Your gentle and wise spirit, your intelligence and compassion, and your delightful sense of humor just shine through your posts. I admire you for surviving this and for being brave enough to process it now.

SG

Ummm, I want to say "what SG said" now.

Hi Jones. I'd like to say ditto to both AG and SG!!!

-CT

Me too Jones- SG and AG have it right.

I had an angry father, and emotional abuse IS ABUSE.
(Someone- maybe you posted about this)

I too had a situation whereby I was not taken care of. The term in our home was-"awww.. don't be a wimp!

My parents could not deal with me when I couldn't walk. I had painful joints- severe enough and constant so that I was not able to bear my own weight. They thought my pain was an overactive imagination until I was hospitalized at age 10.
I don't want to bad mouth them, but they just could not handle my stuff. They would test me- walk without limping or no TV, no movies, or ice cream. Turns out- I had Rheumatic Fever- several attacks- the earliest I remember was age 4.
My T brought me back to this to try EMDR, but I couldnt do it, for reasons I posted earlier.
My parents did not take care of me, but I think they just did not know what they were doing- poor parenting skills due to their loveless upbringing, and too many kids. (I am one of 5)
This is not a contest- and I don't mean to trash your stepdad, but it sounds like he was just downright MEAN. I would call what you described- ABUSE. Don't minimise, process and heal.
(love the statue SG)

Lots of Hugs- Jones.

Oh you guys.... SF, SG, CT, again AG... there's just so much going on for me in reading these responses that I don't know where to start. And I still really have to keep a lot of the feeling about all this at bay somehow, because one thing just leads to another, and the problem was more deeply the *whole thing*, not an incident.

But your responses mean the world. I realise if I wait to process every little bit with my T I will never come to terms with it all. So having this space to talk and be so beautifully heard is so important.

I want to say that when I was a kid I never had ANY idea that there was anything wrong with this incident from the perspective of the parenting I got. And it's only now in hearing your responses and my T's response that I can start to grab those flickers of understanding and hold on to them.

And I want to say again how f@*$ing insidious emotionally abusive and neglectful relationships are. When I think about other people it helps me get this. When I read other people saying 'nothing really happened' at the same time as experiencing lots of old emotional pain, I wonder what the core nature of the relationship was. Abuse and neglect are specifically tailored to teach you to minimise and undervalue your own emotional experience. That message is extremely difficult to identify and counter.

Jones I just want to say that what happened to you at only age 11 was truly awful and should not have happened at all. You should have been taken care of no matter what. Not being forced to care for yourself in such a manner.

Emotional abuse and neglect is truly traumatizing and it's effects are felt in so many areas of our lives. I struggle too with minimizing what I have suffered during my childhood. I was truly shocked to find out that not all kids grow up the way I did. That there are actually kids who can go to their mom or dad and ASK for things, that just take for granted being cared for and nurtured and taught and encouraged. I was so busy trying to stay safe and so focused on caring for everyone else I had no time or energy to focus inward on myself and so I have never come to know myself or who I am. I think part of why we are so good at minimizing what we all have gone through is because to actually recognize it for what it was makes it that much more frightening. To accept that our parents who are supposed to take care of us actually deliberately harmed us is very hard to reconcile with the role a parent should have which is that of being a nurturer.

@Helle, I'm so sorry you were forced to walk in pain. To force a child to physically do something that causes terrible pain by threatening them is truly unconscionable and cruel.

It seems we are so able to recognize the abuse and trauma that others have suffered and feel compassion for them but yet are unable to feel compassion and kindness for ourselves is so difficult. I think that this has to be one of the worst things a legacy of abuse leaves us with.

TN

Helle, I'm sorry I didn't see your message last time I posted - thank you, especially for the strength of this -

quote:

Don't minimise, process and heal.

YES. For all of us. I'm so angry to read about how you were treated in your childhood. These experiences of physical pain and trauma are bad enough for children WITH the proper support, let alone without it. It must have been enormously isolating for you, and I'm sorry.

I have that feeling about my parents, too, that 'they just didn't know what they were doing' but at other times I feel really angry. They should have known. They should have LOOKED around them and inside them and learnt about their lives and about people instead of doing whatever they did instead. Don't know about you but my parents spent a lot of time scoffing at anything that didn't fit their worldview and I hate that.

((((((Helle))))))

TN, thank you. I have had that experience of shock too. I remember once hearing a friend say that her parents didn't believe in making them do housework, because they believed a kid's jobs were to attend to the business of growing up and doing their schoolwork. Now I believe a little bit of housework can be a good thing for kids too, but I just remember being so amazed and jealous that her parents thought that way - that they didn't think of their kids as some nuisance who needed to repay the debt of their existence.

quote:

It seems we are so able to recognize the abuse and trauma that others have suffered and feel compassion for them but yet are unable to feel compassion and kindness for ourselves is so difficult. I think that this has to be one of the worst things a legacy of abuse leaves us with.

Yes. But with healing and with practice I believe we are each overcoming this - that's why we are here.

((((((TN)))))))

J

((For all of you)) My God! How horrific for all of you to have gone through what you did. I too have a past - (a little afraid to talk about it) but we can leave it at that for now. These stories were very hard for me to read and I thank you all for your courage in being able to voice this stuff. I am so grateful that we have all survived to be here for each other.

Smiley

Hi Smiley,
Just wanted to send you a hug. I am so grateful too. Thank you for listening.

J

BB it's so sad to read your experiences, as was reading helle's, TN's, smiley's......I know there are so many unheard stories, all carying deep trauma that buries deep inside us and stays for a lifetime, unless we manage to somehow release it.

And yes, we turn it on ourselves because we have learned to do that from a young age and know that asking for help would have been fruitless, and surely that rejection would feel worse? I would rather never ask for help than risk nobody coming again if I call. This is the legacy of what was done to us and why we blame ourselves long after we are safe and long after we realise maybe, just maybe it wasn't all our fault.

starfish

Oh no! BB, your story is gone....

I'm so sorry I didn't respond earlier. I wanted you to know that I REALLY felt the power of that incident. I really identified with it, which made it hard to respond to. Your dad's dismissive lack of care, the sense of being just an object, the lack of recognition that YOU were going through something scary (moving), the turmoil of moving all the time with no one concerned about the impact on you. I hope it's okay to say this much - tell me if it feels yuck and I can delete this - I do understand the need to go a bit more 'under cover', too. But this story brings up a lot for me because it's so close to my experience. Including the difficulty of being able to CLAIM it and say - that was crap, that was not good enough, that is a really awful thing for a child to go through and they should have done better. I know too that this incident would have been connected to many like it - it's a big legacy of being undervalued, a lot of work to build a different perception of yourself. I'm glad you are doing that work, that we both are, all are, but I KNOW how rough it is.

Take care, BB. Treasure your stories - they hurt, but they are yours, and they are part of what makes you special.

J