Hi Jones,

I don't know a lot about EMDR so I can't offer any thoughts there. And, I may be way off base here, but it's my understanding that if there has been an attachment injury, there often follows a lifetime of insecure attachments and trauma, etc. But the problem with the attachment injury is that it's all preverbal. When the injury occurred, you did not have the language, the cognition necessary in order to process it. The neural connections just aren't there for you and maybe that's why you experience the block??? I know for a fact (my T would disagree) that I'm missing a very many neural connections and often "sense" a black hole in my brain. I think that's why these things often have to be "felt" and experienced and then labeled. Does this make sense?

jones, that sounds interesting though. maybe it is just stiff at first. but, seems t is going for the feelings associated with it, and break through that wall of intellect. i think that is where it is at, for this preverbal stuff. sometimes i can tap into it, and sometimes not.

but, i try to remember when i do, and what triggers it. for example, sunday night i cried for an hour, deep, panicky sobbing. the thought that kept crossing my mind is how i have NEVER had ANYONE help me. emotionally, psychologically...really looking at the formative years through 25 or so. and that it has been a one man show, and that i did a lousy job, and i was sad, mad, grieving, pissed. all of the above.

sometimes triggering in on what makes you burn up inside, and remembering it to t.

but, i would keep at it. is sounds like this is going to tap into the right brain, where the injury is, and the healing.

'nuther example. my dr. pa had to cancel twice last week due to bad weather. and it was appropriate that he did. well, i had a bad week, knew it was intellectually not his fault he cancelled. he asked if some of this bad week is tapping into feeling abandoned by him. i argued "NO, you had to cancel!! the weather was icy, i don't fault you!" but he said emotions are not rationally based. and i see this is the argument in my head. and i won't accept pulling on old illogical strings, but i did realize, and tell him, that yes, i was hurt.

so, i guess i am realizing, as i have said elsewhere, that intellect is just confusing the issue.

i would give it a few weeks of trying, and paying attention to whatever irrational thought in your head causes you pain, and bring it up. i have a feeling you will get there. i think your t sounds great, and creative, and tuned into what you need.

and yes, i know what you mean, about grievous stuff not being stated emotionally anymore...i feel like i am ordering pizza, giving my 'schpeel' to a new t...a la, "oh, yea, a little csa, just to add to the mix"!
good luck!! jill

Jill said it all so succinctly. I'm often still in that no it doesn't hurt anymore mode when another part of me is scurrying around, trying to hide my pain. Just a lifetime of pain. Not even one specific thing anymore.

Because I don't know how to protect myself, I've walled myself off from my emotions and from new experiences. And, so really, there isn't anything else. I'm not allowing new experiences to come in. I can give you a narrative as far as the history of my life. I can do it, as Jill said, in a very unemotional way. But I'm not FEELING it.

Maybe it is all too overwhelming for you to experience all at once and that you have to learn to experience it little by little? Maybe you are putting too much pressure on yourself to do too much at once?

I don't know a lot about EMDR. How far along in therapy do you have to be in order to attempt it? Do you have to have a secure attachment established first? You haven't been with manatee that long yet. Maybe you have to successfully attach first? Just throwing some stuff out there.

Thank you everyone - these messages have been both interesting and comforting. I'll come back and write more soon.

xxJones

Jones,

Hope you are okay. I know how frustrating it is trying to reach something that is so blocked off. I often feel the same way. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just trying to be a different person, one with feelings. Maybe I'll never react to things the way a "normal" person would react. I don't know. It's so confusing.

Dear all,

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this, and for being there for me when I reach out. I want to apologize that so often when I do post about my own stuff I then withdraw from the responses - I just often seem to need that space to process privately. But I appreciate each of the responses, and they always give me something to think about.

Liese, thank you for your comments and your lovely concern. About preverbal attachment injury - I'm not sure that's what is at play here. I'm not even sure it's trauma based, or that it's a problem. It's something to do with the visualisation and felt experience of memory - that something is clear at first, then when I get closer to it it dissolves.

I discussed this with Manatee yesterday before we began EMDR (more on that soon) and was able to describe the dissolving, and being left in this situation of 'making stuff up'. He clarified whether I was sure that the things had happened, and I said yes, totally sure, but that they don't *feel* real as I get closer to them. he said that was totally okay, and that it was fine to elaborate in ways that weren't from the original experience. He saw it as part of the processing of the memory, and said this was not problematic at all.

So that helped me to feel a lot more comfortable. I want to clarify, too, that what I'm describing here is not the same kind of block as not being able to remember, or feeling frightened of a memory and unable to approach it. The experience in my body is not one of great fear. The other thing about it is that many of the memories I am considering have been part of my consciousness for a long time - I have considered and reconsidered them, and felt very wounded and nursed them, suppressed my anger and to some degree experienced it and so on.

But there is still some processing work to do - the hidden beliefs.

Jill, I relate to that feeling of having 'never had anyone help me'. Which is sort of funny when I think about how much professional help I've had over my whole teen & adult life - not to mention the help of wonderful friends. I think for me this is really one of those core early experiences - and then the rest, the patchwork of putting things together after the fact - a beautiful patchwork, while the emotional experience is still sometimes one of trying to look for that first whole blanket that was - or wasn't.

I am hopeful about getting past the intellectualising with Manatee, but also at the moment enjoying being in there and not needing to get past it - connecting there a little bit, which helps me feel safe.

Liese, that question of whether EMDR is okay at this phase of the relationship - it's a good one, and a few people have asked me that. I'll write more about yesterday's session shortly, but I will say that it's okay for me right now. That's for a few reasons though. One is that I have done enough work that I can express my doubts, discomforts and even anger when necessary. We established that in the second session, and that protects me *a huge amount*. So asking about the dissolving thoughts was important to me, and I was able to. Manatee has made it very clear that it's my choice to do this, and he made sure that I knew how to stop it yesterday if I wanted to.

While we were preparing, I also thought through what might come up (EMDR is basically a free-association process). I don't have traumas that I have repressed, though there is some non-traumatic difficult material that I've never discussed with anyone. I decided that if that stuff came up I could simply say I wasn't going to talk about it, and that's exactly what happened yesterday. Because I'd decided that ahead of time, it felt okay (though there was a lot of emotion through the whole process). Manatee spent some time checking out if that was what I really wanted, and I said yes. Afterwards he told me it was totally fine to have done that.

STRM (YES, I always think Storm! and I like it ), thank you for this link. I found when I first started this that reading stuff about the process made me feel over-defended, but I feel okay to have a look now.

I think one of the things I was most scared about in doing this was that it might be the end of my relationship with Manatee (because I'd be instantly cured, haha!). Having done it, though, it feels much more like a beginning. So much stuff came up yesterday, just in image form, and I think - hope - we will be able to discuss that stuff more. Though I guess I'm still scared about this, I know also that this fear is not really about EMDR, and I'll have to engage with this, EMDR or no.

When we began yesterday Manatee told me to think about it like a train - we would go through different places and stations, but the thing was not to get off the train and stay in one place, but to just keep going and see where it went. At the end he told me that it was okay that I had been crying (I can't remember which part I was crying about), and that keeping moving in that way was not about dismissing the feelings or experience. That the brain is still processing through the eye movements, even though we keep moving.

I feel kinda vulnerable and emotional now, but okay. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.

love,
Jones

Dear STRM,

Thanks. I am feeling pretty wobbly now. Trying to use my safe place and also to hold on to the things he said afterwards - that it was okay not to have said some stuff, that we weren't dismissing things.

After an EMDR session, do you talk it through in the next session? I am really feeling like I need a slower processing session, or a few, now.

I think the train thing is part of the protocol, along with 'there's no right way to do this, whatever comes up is okay' or something like that.

J

Jones,

I know what you mean about resisting because you don't want it to be the end of the relationship. I have thought that countless times during my therapy. Okay, I'll follow his advice and it'll be that easy and I'll be cured. I actually read on a therapists website how she handled that and somehow she used the word AND. I wish I could remember exactly what she told herclients. It was like yes,you'll do this AND we'll still work together. Only better than that.

I'm so glad that you were able toidentify what was bothering you and workthrough it. I'm still so bad at that. But I'm glad you were able to do it.

Sorry you feel so wobly today. I'm glad you updated. I do worry about you when you don't post. But I did kind of figure that you were processing things. I know how it feels when I am in that raw state and needing to keep things close to the vest.

Will Manatee do regular therapy with you too?

Hi Liese,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. There's no need to worry about me - I have good resources. Often when I am doing a lot of processing it is most comfortable for me to do it privately. Also I really get a lot from people's feedback but I find it hard to integrate, I am slow with that. Sometimes if I go too fast I feel threatened when people identify with me, rather than reinforced, as other people seem to feel. And then once I take my time, find myself again and take it in, the feedback takes its proper value and I really enjoy the support. Just one of my quirks.

The EMDR is in the context of some kind of 'regular' therapy with Manatee. But I've yet to figure out (or ask) what the greater shape of that might be.

Take care.

J

Hey Jones,

You do strike me as the independent type. That's a good thing. Wondering what your birth order is? Do you have a younger sibling who tended to latch onto your identity? Just wondering about the comment you made about how it makes you uncomfortable when people identify with you. I WAS the younger sibling!!!!

Glad things are going well with manatee.

Liese

Hi Liese, good question! But no, I was the younger sibling too! Until I was 14 or so, anyway. I don't know where it comes from... just is, I guess.

Takes care,
Jones

Hey, thank you STRM and DF for the reassurance that your ts space out the EMDR with time for processing. This week has been really rough and I don't know that it worked the way it was supposed to - I still feel more fragile rather than less.

Appointment tomorrow. Hope things get a bit more secure. DF, good luck with your session, let me know how it goes.

xxJ

Hi everyone,

I seem to have got to a place where I feel okay posting an update again.

The couple of weeks following my first EMDR session were really awful. I seemed to be okay when we finished, but for the whole week afterwards I then felt really destabilized, groggy and awful. It hadn't helped that my GP had asked me to take heavy painkillers for a full week to sort out an inflammation, but I was also feeling a lot of anxiety about who Manatee is, what his methods were, and ultimately whether he was going to push me through the EMDR and kick me out. Lots of shame stuff came up with the EMDR, and all week I found myself stuck in self-hatred and panic at work - on top of the grogginess, which was really making me fumble things.

The next week I let him know it had been really hard, and he said that clearly we had not resolved the stuff that came up. He was very clear that he wanted to continue so that I didn't stay stuck there. And also that we could do ordinary talk therapy instead, but he felt it would take a lot longer and have me suffering more. I refused the EMDR that day, though, and he agreed but let me know it wasn't necessarily going to be a 'light' session because of that. I was okay with that.

So we talked through a bunch of stuff related to things that came up in the EMDR, and I described the things I had been unable to describe the first week. He listened hard but gave so little feedback - no interpretations, just lots of questions for clarification. That was okay but at the end he said we had done certain things but he wasn't sure what the take-home value of this session, this way of working was for me - a question which REALLY triggered me. I said it helped me to understand the things we had talked about and not feel too overwhelmed, and it helped me to trust him more. He listened and affirmed those things, but when I went away I felt awful, again like I was going to be pushed through the EMDR so he could just get rid of me without having to touch my nasty stuff or get involved with me in any way. I became convinced that his bent was really behavioral and that we wouldn't be able to have the on-going relationship that I feel like I need to really get to my goals in therapy.

So all that uncertainty, distrust and fear sent me into a google frenzy, which didn't end well, and added to the intense feelings of self-hatred and shame still coming up, I think, from the incomplete EMDR stuff. This was suffused into my feelings about all my current issues, rather than actually being feelings about what I remembered, so it was sort of hard to make connections (and remains hard). I just tried to hold on to the intellectual knowledge that I don't usually feel this way - that my whole life is worthless, that I want to die and so on. It was like a constant assault - every thought I had seemed to have the punchline "and that's why I suck". It was so bad on Sunday that I sent an email asking for an early session, even though my next one was going to be on Wednesday. And then making that decision to do that helped me pull my head together enough to try to write down what I needed to say at that session. I wrote down everything, printed out and kept it with me - for some reason this was hugely calming and a bit of a turning point.

On Monday I got an email from reception saying he couldn't fit me in before Wednesday. I'd woken up sick, and that made things worse, but still I was able to hold on to what I had written down, go to work, keep holding it together and refine my sense of what I needed to say. My husband was also being really kind to me, which helped a lot.

Somewhere in there I asked on here about treatment plans, because what I was figuring out was that I wanted to know how long I could work with him, and whether we were going to be able to do the kind of work I wanted. And as I got more clear about that, and about how much abandonment fear was going on for me, I realized that actually I didn't *know* he was trying to rush me through or kick me out, it just felt that way. By obsessively checking the practice webpage I was able to eventually take in that although he is trained in behavioural therapies and EMDR, he's also trained in various other longer term depth psychology methods.

Well, by the time I got into my session on Wednesday I was a little more steady, though still really triggered. I also knew that I really needed to continue with the EMDR so that I didn't stay in that place. I thought that I would discuss the treatment plan stuff with him so we could go on to do the EMDR, but it didn't work like that. When I went in he went back and recapped some of the stuff from the previous week, and it became clear to me that he understood what I had been saying in a really nuanced and intelligent way, and that he understood the importance of that conversation - he wasn't invalidating the choice to do that instead of the EMDR. We talked for a little while about how the week had been, and although I was vague about why things had been awful, he was so alert and attuned that I felt really really heard, especially on the question of how it was difficult to trust him. He let me know that we could continue just to use the talk therapy, but he preferred EMDR because it was more unconscious. Another puzzle piece fell into place for me - I had been thinking of it as more mechanical, but this showed me a very different light.

So when he asked if we could continue with EMDR I said yes. It felt lovely to say yes, a yielding, a giving of trust.

And since then I have been mostly in this slightly blissful state. I can't explain all the resonances. But it started to seem that rather than being far away from me when we do the EMDR he is quite close, watching closely and taking time to understand, going with me to all these places that are so familiar in my head. He checks everything I say afterwards to make sure he has understood. And something about his firmness on wanting this method and *letting* me resist it, letting me say no, and then continuing to advocate for it while respecting that - somehow (because of who I am) this gives me this other-worldly feeling of security, that he is responsible, taking care of things, and that I can have all my doubts and second-guessing and explore them to be sure it's right, without that derailing the programme. I think back to Art-T and how when I expressed doubt about her reading my notes, she then just didn't read them - I understand how I couldn't work with her.

At the end of the EMDR he left time for debriefing and to follow up his questions - but he had a lot to ask so was leading this right through. Finally with about one minute to go he slowed down and I asked if I could ask something, knowing I'd feel bad if I didn't raise my question. I said "how long do you think we'll be doing this?" and he asked if I meant the EMDR or therapy itself. My heart leapt into my mouth and I just said "Err, EMDR" because I didn't want to get into the real question with no time. But he welcomed the question, and linked it to something he'd been saying about goals. That he wanted me to start imagining who I would like to be, without the discomfort and the shameful feelings, having to talk quietly and look away. What it would be like to be free of that. I feel like he said other stuff here, I'm not sure, can't seem to remember, somehow without telling me what I would be he showed me something that felt beautiful. He said it was up to me if I wanted to go there, and we could get there through EMDR or other paths, either way we could get there.

What a lovely feeling.

xxxJones

P.S. Just to follow up on the beginning of this thread - it became clearer when we began the EMDR that the negative belief to work on at the moment was "I'm shameful". I still struggle with the dissolving image thing. I raised this again with him as we worked this week, and he just was very reassuring, telling me it was okay that it did what it did, that the point was not to recover the event as it had been but simply to see how it is now as it changes within me.

Jones,

Wow! What a great update. You have such a way with writing that I felt as if I was right there with you on this journey. I'm so pleased that the connections were made and pieces fell into place and that the EMDR is helping you to feel better. You describe much of what I've felt after using EMDR and it is so interesting how things continue to bubble up over time and then have a way of sorting themselves out into a discernable picture once the pieces all settle out.

Keep us posted on your progress!

Hi, Jones! It was great to read your update...thank you. I'm loving that Manatee is not leaving you alone in the EMDR...sounds like he gets it, thank goodness for that! He seems to have the right combination of assertiveness/leadership/tenderness or something like that- to be able to help this work for you this time. I am very glad to hear this. It sounds like he would be willing to do whatever you need to do in terms of forming a relationship, and that is a big relief.

gigantic hugs,

BB

(((Jones)))
Thank you so much for the update, it was really good to hear from you. I am sorry for the difficult passage you went through, but am so glad that you stuck through it and worked to see what was going on with you. I am very happy to hear that you are building a good relationship with this T and seeing signs of both being able to trust him and that he will be there for the long haul. Probably should have put that in reverse order, as I think knowing he’ll be there is a big part of being able to trust him. It sounds like the EMDR is just one of the tools at his disposal, but he clearly think it’s use could be effective for you, but it’s also not the only thing you need. It is good to know that you are building a place safe enough for you to be scared. You are always so strong for everyone, I know because I have leaned at you on times; it’s a relief to see you have someone who will be strong so that you can lean.

quote:

And something about his firmness on wanting this method and *letting* me resist it, letting me say no, and then continuing to advocate for it while respecting that - somehow (because of who I am) this gives me this other-worldly feeling of security, that he is responsible, taking care of things, and that I can have all my doubts and second-guessing and explore them to be sure it's right, without that derailing the programme.

This resonated SO strongly with me. I remember experiencing this with my T on several occasions. But I remember the first time was when he cancelled a couples’ appt and I found out he had given the appt to someone else. It was the first time I ever got really angry with him and told him about it. He was totally open to hearing how I felt about it and very understanding of my emotions. But at the same time, he didn’t apologize, he explained he had his reasons and even offered to tell me more if I wanted to know but that I could imagine what kind of circumstances could occur in his line of work; that it had been a professional decision. He was very compassionate and accepting of where I was, but very clear, not in a confrontational way at all, that he also knew he had done nothing wrong. My experience in my family had always been that you could only have one person stand and live at a time. This was a new experience having too complete people in the room each with their own feelings. And I remember so clearly the very paradoxical feeling that I felt so much safer knowing I couldn’t push him around. I think it’s what you said, that you could have your doubts and second guessing knowing that your T can take care of himself. There’s something very freeing about that realization.

AG

Hello you guys.

First a belated thank you very much to you all - STRM, BB, AG, Shimmerwings, DF - for your responses last time. I read them with much appreciation and then got distracted and forgot I hadn't thanked you each out loud.

AG, thank you particularly for sharing your experience of your T holding his ground on something.

quote:

My experience in my family had always been that you could only have one person stand and live at a time. This was a new experience having too complete people in the room each with their own feelings. And I remember so clearly the very paradoxical feeling that I felt so much safer knowing I couldn’t push him around.

This is absolutely true. In my house any difference of opinion was a betrayal, a fight. One person would be deliberately oppositional no matter what, the other would constantly distort themselves to avoid conflict. It is really nice to feel that safety that you put into words here so well. (And by the way, I miss you!!)

Anyway, I wanted to post again because I'm feeling a bit wobbly after my session yesterday and I want to see what I can make of it. We *finally* finished the EMDR series that we have worked on over, I think, 4 sessions. Last time I got frustrated because I couldn't see any end in sight, and he told me I had come a long way already and was "nearly there". He also asked last time if I'd had dreams - I said no, and he said he often found this stirred up dreams.

So sure enough I dreamed the night after last week's session, and I told him about it at the beginning of yesterday's session. It was a dream of being buried under an avalanche of gravel, and for me I had really connected it to my fear about all this stuff coming up in EMDR, that one thing just led to all these other things and I would just be flattened by everything. A lot of it was about the danger of trusting him.

But when I told him and he asked what I thought it was about I just said I didn't know. And he didn't know. We talked about it a little bit, he made a guess that was off-base, he said "I'm grasping at straws here" and then eventually we just left it to begin the EMDR again. I couldn't concentrate, kept thinking about the dream, knowing I had lied that I didn't know what it was about, wishing he had been able to understand, trying to focus and not being able to, and basically just ended up stalling heaps and dragging my heels.

The dream came up again in the EMDR images and we were able to talk about it a little bit more, and he understood it was about getting into a position of not being able to function, and that it was immediately after our last session, not in response to something else. That helped a little bit. I apologised for not being able to focus and said I wasn't trying to be difficult. He said it was okay and that he wasn't trying to rush me through, and that if we needed to take more time we would take more time. I asked him how he knew there was actually going to be a resolution to all this stuff and he said he had faith in the process, and that he would be surprised given where I'd gone so far if I wasn't nearly finished.

At some point he said he didn't have a client for the appointment after me, and did I want to carry on for the following hour to resolve it. At that point I realised we were already 10 minutes over the hour - I'd had no idea, it felt like we'd only been there 1/2 an hour at that point and I still have no idea where that time went. But I said if he was okay with that I would be okay with it.

He was and he reassured me that we could take our time and that made things much easier, things started to shift. But I was also conscious of him looking tired, and his responses all through the double session were not quite as on the mark as they often are.

But we kept going and soon after he offered the extension of the session the EMDR resolved itself in a really positive way. And then we just talked about that resolution and kind of affirmed it for the remaining time.

Today I feel both vulnerable and skeptical. I know I scuttled the dream discussion because it was too close to talking directly about our relationship. I wanted him to take the lead on going there if we were going to. But he was genuinely oblivious to this interpretation that was just screaming out at me. So I protected myself and was left with all the feelings of having done that - the loneliness of it, and the uncertainty of not knowing whether if I *had* gone there I would have been accepted or rejected.

And then I also feel really skeptical about whether what we did in EMDR will hold or change anything for me. This is somehow caught up with the other issue - that I don't know if he knows he has a presence for me, that I don't know if he knows the relationship is important to me, and my sense of it makes a difference to whether I feel I can do the things I want to do.

I remind myself that he gave me the extra time and told me it was okay to take the time I needed. But I feel embarrassed for taking too long and making simple things complicated.

Hugs everyone.

Jones

Jones - sounds like a very good session. I'm glad your T offered you the extra time to resolve things. I know it's frustrating when there are other things still floating around that you would like to see resolved (like the dream you mentioned). I often wish T would pick up on things and take the lead. Before I got my attachment to him out in the open, I was always dancing around the topic and waiting for him to tell me it was OK, but either he never got it, or he wanted to make sure I got it for myself before addressing it...even still, we don't talk about it nearly as much as it comes up in my mind, but if we did, it is all we would ever discuss.

Jones! It's so good to see your post. Thank you for sharing all of that with us, here. I'm a little bit confused about the dream situation, though. I was wondering something..(if you are not comfortable to answer this, no worries, just answer if it helps to talk about, ok?)

I was wondering about this:

quote:

I know I scuttled the dream discussion because it was too close to talking directly about our relationship. I wanted him to take the lead on going there if we were going to. But he was genuinely oblivious to this interpretation that was just screaming out at me.

I was wondering about how the dream about the avalanche of gravel burying you ((((Jones))))relates to your relationship with him, because when I first read what you wrote, it sounded like you were saying that the dream related more to the EMDR. I wonder if it's possible that there is some kind of fear of connecting your relationship with your T with the EMDR he is doing with you, or something. It almost sounds like (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is some kind of separation of the two in your mind or in your emotions- like "I have my T relationship with Manatee, and then, we do EMDR, which is just this kind of mechanical, scary, separate thing that I have to figure out all by myself." I wonder if that is where some of that might come from- if you felt safer and more trusting in this new relationship, it might connect more to the EMDR as something that he is "doing for you" or "helping you through" within the relationship itself instead of outside of it. Just thoughts- I just feel so sad for you because it seems like even though he is right there, you still feel alone in that process, and while you are suffering through all of this, are concerned about him, being tired and so on.

I guess I just want to say that he *is* very doing the EMDR for you, to help you deal with your past traumas, and that is a really important part of your relationship with him- part of how he is leading you gently to a healing place. Don't let him go too fast for you, though. He *wants* to keep you safe in it, and he wants you to trust him to guide you through it all. the EMDR is a teamwork too. It shouldn't have to feel like a mechanical thing that you have to do "correctly" otherwise you will disappoint your T, and yourself, or something. If that ws true, than people could just buy a machine that would do that EMDR for them, and save piles of money. Part of that means being really vulnerable, I suppose, and accepting that vulnerable part of it is totally ok, and sharing that with him- which you already know. I just want to encourage you that building the relationship by talking about your fears about the EMDR, and how you need him in it- it's totally ok. I'm sure of it. I don't know if I'm really expressing what I'm trying to say very well.

It sounds like he is really caring about you in this process. You are not doing it wrong, or making it too complicated, Jones. All of those feelings are just part of the trauma you carry, and while they are painful and a distraction, they won't impede the process. They are just a part of the process. Shouldn't have to carry those feelings about EMDR alone, when your T is right there.

And- it's totally ok to be skeptical. I think you just need to find a way to let Manatee carry you during this process, even though it's not a "talking" process. All feelings and fear are acceptable in the room. And it's ok to ask.. if you aren't sure if they are or not.

((((((((Jones))))))))

Love,

Bebe

Hi Jones... good to see you here posting.

I have no experience with EMDR so I can't comment on that specifically but I think you have an elephant in the room with you while you are in session. I think that would be the therapeutic relationship and how he is not talking about it and you want to. When you say he has a "presence" for you, I'm not sure what that really means but it seems that he is becoming and important person in your life and you want to talk about that with him but you are fearful of his response. As you know, all your feelings and emotions should be accepted and willing to be discussed in therapy. I think the biggest part of the work is setting up the foundation or frame of the relationship. I admire you greatly for your courage in going through with the EMDR fairly early in your relationship.

Right now I think you are sitting with the "unsatisfied" feeling of having an opportunity to introduce the relationship topic but letting it get away from you and also maybe being a teeny bit disappointed that HE did not bring it into discussion either.

I'm afraid you will have to take the bull by the horns and put it out there bluntly for him if you feel the need to talk about the relationship. Oh yeah... and I KNOW how very hard that is to do.

When do you see Manatee again?

Sending you hugs
TN

Thanks Yaku. I feel like "in reality" it was a good session and in me it was hard, I couldn't get connected. It is hard to accept that I want to talk about the relationship, or why I want to do that, to know whether that is okay or not. It feels like I would be trying to turn the relationship into something it's not, but I'm not even sure what I want to say about it.

Beebs, I think the thing about the dream and the EMDR is that to me a lot of the stuff that has been coming up is really connected to the relationship and to the feelings of loneliness, fear of abandonment, not want to have to go it alone with the work ahead of me, in therapy or life. I have no idea how long the work in therapy will be. So I've been having this sense as these things come up that soon I will be overwhelmed by those feelings. And yet I am not, and I also think I am just imagining that future overwhelm and if I keep just doing the work it will be fine.

Part of it is not knowing what he knows, you know? I didn't know if the dream was screamingly obvious or not. Clearly not. So then that maybe means for him the EMDR will fix everything up and I will go on my way. Maybe, I don't know. I'm confused! But yes, I feel like he is competent and caring, but also sort of no-nonsense, with a kind of "let's get on with it" vibe. So that even as he was saying "I don't want to rush you" I felt like I was dilly-dallying. But then this is partly my childhood - constantly being aggressively rushed.

quote:

It sounds like he is really caring about you in this process. You are not doing it wrong, or making it too complicated, Jones. All of those feelings are just part of the trauma you carry, and while they are painful and a distraction, they won't impede the process. They are just a part of the process. Shouldn't have to carry those feelings about EMDR alone, when your T is right there.

Thank you so much for this, it is really, really sweet and reassuring.

TN, unfortunately (for me) I think you are right about the elephant. When I imagine talking to him about it I imagine him saying: "Sure, but I'm not your friend or partner or parent, and our work is to get you to a situation where you have everything you need in your life so that you don't need me."

And part of me doesn't want to hear that, because although it seems perfectly reasonable and "right" to me, I feel like there are things that I could do if I had that space, that relationship, on-goingly, that I couldn't do without it.

I think that to bring it up and be open about it, I have to be ready to accept rejection, or even just an end-point, you know? And it's hard to picture what next beyond that point.

Hugs you guys. These messages mean a lot to me.

Jones

Jones,

It feels like to me from reading your post that the EMDR is stirring some feelings and beliefs that are old and you are feeling anxiety about really taking the leap and going there if you don't know if T is going to really be there to catch you. Totally understandable. I think he would be open to the discussion about the relationship, he just didn't get it from the dream. I know it is a hard topic to bring up, but I sense that it will continue to bug you if you don't. I could be off base here so feel free to toss me out on my ear, but that is the vibe I got from your posts.

I also wanted to say that with regular protocol EMDR that I (as I've said before) really struggled with it feeling detached and like I was alone, not doing it right etc. I wonder what your T might say if you brought that up and explained that it often feels as though you are alone?

Anyway, I'm sorry that you are struggling with this and hope that you are able to feel safe in bringing up these issues with your T.

(((hugs)))

Dear DF & STRM,

Hugs to both of you - thank you for your support. DF, it's really nice just to have you here. You are a real sweetheart. I am hoping the EMDR sticks too. It's funny, things feel different inside me, but not in the way I thought they would. I don't feel paralyzed as much, but I do still feel scared, vulnerable, little, sad, etc.

DF I'm sorry I'm slow with this, but it occurs to me - did the EMDR stir things up for you?I know you are really struggling right now and I wonder if you are going through something like the couple of weeks I had after my first EMDR with Manatee - trapped in some kind of cul de sac of feeling. You know I found it really helped to tell my T I was feeling alone in it - I *needed* him to know that, and he helped me to not feel alone in it. I hope you don't have to suffer too much with this DF (((((((((DF))))))))

STRM, you are right you know - I feel like this first 'round' of EMDR sessions cleared out a layer of stuff, and now I feel what is underneath more clearly. Not so much alone in sessions right now, he's helped me with that, but more globally alone, scared and so on. I really need to know if he is going to be there. So I am going to ask about this stuff tomorrow - I know that I need to and don't want to put it off again. It's really good to hear about your EMDR experiences too. It is hard to describe for those not familiar with it, I think. It's not quite like the feelings/processes of other therapies, it seems to me. ((((((((STRM)))))))) Thank you.

Love,
Jones

Well, I just got home (via groceries) from a really big session. I feel like the gods of therapy were smiling on me tonight, and although it wasn't an easy or 'fun' session (anyone ever had one of those?!) we covered a lot of ground that was really important, and I feel like once I've had a giant sleep I am going to feel a lot more stable.

We started with a check in with what was going on, general update, and then he said well, he hadn't been sure where I'd be at, but he'd written down a question I'd asked from a couple of sessions ago, which he thought it would be useful to come back to. Which was "the question about the end of therapy."

I can't tell you how boggled I was that he had picked that out to come back to, and also that he'd actually understood it the way I *didn't* ask it, but meant it - that I needed to know about the end of therapy, rather than the end of EMDR. And that I DIDN'T HAVE TO BRING IT UP MYSELF!!! (*Burns tribute to therapy gods*)

He said, "Of course, there's been a lot go on this week, so that's probably not the most pressing thing."

I knew that was my moment and said "Actually that is pressing."

I told him that I found it really hard to talk about, but it was something that I felt worried about. I guess, though, that my poker face is better than I thought it was, because he then said that he knew I had had difficulties with my last T, and was I having difficulties with him like that?

Err, no!! I told him that actually things were really good in that respect, I was comfortable with what we have been doing and feeling like it was really helpful.

But that I didn't know how long we would be doing therapy, and I felt worried about it.

He asked if I felt like he or therapists in general had an agenda for how long the therapy would take or should take. I said YES. And that I felt worried about having to finish before I was ready, or not being able to get the things done that I needed to.

He said that he didn't have an agenda for that, that if I felt like there were goals I was working to, and we got to those, and then there were other goals or things I needed then we could work on those too. He said he knew of a client who had been working with the same therapist for 15 years, and that was fine. And that while some people saw therapy as a way of fixing up something broken, one could also just choose it as part of an active & healthy life, and it was up to me.

BUT he also said that he didn't want to prolong it for the sake of it, and that if he felt my goals were about getting things from therapy that I should be getting from people in my life, he would say so and we would work on that.

Hm, well, ok. So I told him that I could definitely imagine getting to the stage of being a lot happier than I am now, and I could imagine being less stuck, more productive, more functioning, but that I couldn't imagine getting to the point where I would stop wanting or needing the support in my creative work.

And I don't remember exactly how it went then, but basically we went into a long discussion about the way I feel alone in that work, how when I am expressing myself in company (in another medium) I feel competent, secure, assured, wanted. And when I am alone I feel none of those things, and it's so much harder.

And ultimately he told me that the things I was looking for were things that an intimate partner provides. And that we needed to look at my relationship as well as looking at whether I have those things in myself.

He said that when he works with women who are being abused in their relationships (he said he meant a partial parallel with my situation, but not a total parallel) there's a point where you can work all you like on self-esteem, building them up and so on, and if they are going home each week to the abusive partner who is then undoing that work, well, it doesn't make for a lot of progress.

So he really wants us to go back to couples therapy. It wasn't an immediate demand or anything. But he was basically saying that needed to be part of our work. We argued a bit about how possible that would actually be, and he said that if it turned out to not be possible then that would be the situation we worked with, but that it wasn't impossible now.

And then he focused it on the work we are doing together, and set me a task around my creative work, and my relationship to other people in it.

So much to process in this.... I gotta go sleep but I wanted to get down the details. I feel okay, so relieved to have actually covered this stuff, and I feel like for my situation his responses were spot on. Hard and challenging but right. I know he is not saying he won't work with me. Once again I feel like he is this really skilled surgeon. How he got through all that without blood on the floor I don't know. But the chicken bone that was stuck in my gullet is now removed.

Sleeeeeeeeep.

xxxxJ

Wow- resonances, indeed. I'm amazed that Manatee was able to say, that what you were needing were things that an intimate partner provides. It just sounds so- authoritative, but right. I don't like it, for some reason. I wonder why I don't like it? That bears thinking about. But I think you are also in possession of a bad-ass T.

It helps t hear that another T has this perspective. I think your T sounds wise. I hurt for you, though, I literally feel your pain. I am glad that you feel you are in good hands with a skilled surgeon. He sounds like he is just right, and very wise.
I'm happy and sad for you, Jones.

hugs, xo,

Beebs

!!! Glad he knew how important that question was. It feels so great when Ts "get it" without us having to be explicit. It's nice to feel "known."

Thank you, lovelies.

Peepfried, thank you for the lovely smile The sleep was *good*. I was a bit brave, huh? I had been trying to gear myself up to lead this conversation myself. In fact was so freaked out about it that my hands were shaking in the waiting room. Hadn't helped that I went to the bathroom when I first arrived, and he was going into the men's at the same time. I sat in there for the next ten minutes going "There's no way I can bring this up. I have to. There's no way I can". I think I had about 65% of the requisite courage I'd have needed - which was enough for brave and bold responses when he opened it up himself!

Peepbird, (((((hug))))). Yes, he's a bad-ass T. It's funny, though, I don't feel hurt about this. I don't know how to explain. I guess on some level I can feel this exchange as
"Will you be my intimate partner?"
"No."

Which would be hurtful, but - I sorta don't feel it there. Instead I feel like he is acknowledging the need for certain things in my intimate life, and saying you know, you also have this other need, which is to have a fulfilling relationship. And we're not going to compromise by just letting the relationship languish while topping up your needs elsewhere. So I feel cared for on that level, even though it's really challenging. And I don't feel like he was saying I had to fulfill myself through the relationship or else. It felt more like, this is the place we need to go to first for this stuff, and then we'll see what's left.

So it feels okay. And it definitely feels protected in certain ways, that I know he has the big picture in mind, and that we are safely closing certain doors. I guess these are the doors of me using the therapy relationship as an escape from my own relationship. It is enormously deep-down reassuring to me that he is doing that - that I can feel he is conscious of all that escapist-transference stuff, which is very much part of my history, and he's not fazed by it, and just is handling it, without us even having to spell it out too directly.

But I think a lot of this is about the place I am at too. That my attachment stuff is in a certain place now, those needs are not moment-to-moment overwhelming. That I have been through all the hurt and trauma of outside attachments several times before in my marriage and am ready to let go of this as a path to some degree. That my marriage is stable and relatively balanced at the moment, and I get much more support and care out of it than I used to. And that I believe Manatee - sort of, mostly - when he says that if it is the right thing for me to continue with therapy by my choice I can. Mostly, sort of, I understand now what his priorities are, and that these are not about kicking me out or getting rid of me, but about taking in the big picture of my care. I feel like I won't be pushed out of therapy without having what I need.

So dear Peepbird, I describe all this because I think it's all important to take into account when we think about the similarities of our situations. Whatever your reasons for not liking that thing he said about what an intimate partner provides - they are legitimate reasons from your own legitimate emotional situation. You know what I'm saying? It's similar but different, and it is perfectly right that this feels a bit different for the two of us. I guess I just wanted to say all that in case you feel like how you feel is somehow not okay.

Yakupeepu, it was *such* a windfall! In some ways I almost feel like it was *cheating*, in that he did the hardest work for me, but I'm not complaining. I don't know that it was so much about exactly knowing me - he had no idea whether I was mad at him or anything - but more about knowing that this was the right thing for this time in therapy. Goooooood instincts.

Peepte, yes, I think I had a touch of the Buffy going on right then!!! It just sort of fell out of me. And I could hear my head adding all these qualifiers ("that is....maybe a little bit... pressing... sorta kinda or maybe not...") but my mouth just didn't!

YES about training others not to track mud on the carpet. I can see that if you have a partner on-side, the work would go a lot lot faster, and if you didn't, you could be basically filling the bucket with the hole in the bottom, you know? *Hoping our Beebs is getting both the hole fixed at the bottom and the lovely cool water still flowing in at the top.*

It was a relief to hear he's not rushing me off. I have to say, though, I don't think he's much of a plodder, - he is super goal-oriented, and we work fast. It's kind of good for me because I get frustrated at how much of a plodder/meanderer I am. And I sorta have the feeling that while he doesn't judge the 15-year client, it's a little bit like some kind of marvel from another land to him, or just a bit outside his experience. I might be wrong. It feels okay, though. Right now it is more important to me to get to the goals I have and see what I need then - and it feels like it's okay for that to take as long as it does.

Great big hugs for everyone!

Love,
Peeps

Jones,

This was awesome to read, I am really glad your T brought it up, and even happier you were able to be clear about the fact that it DID need to be discussed. The ability to stay in therapy as long as I needed was a crucial one for me also. My work with my T didn't really take off until he told me that he would never ask me to leave, I could come as long as I wished to. I think we need to know we're not going to be abandoned in the middle of what we're doing, but more importantly (at least for me, I don't want to presume about your experiences) so much of my childhood consisted of me having to handle on my own things I wasn't ready to handle on my own. So I needed to know I wouldn't have to handle it alone until I felt ready.

And I'm with Monte, I can totally see you as Buffy. Irreverent wise cracks and all!

And as tough as he is, he sounds like a good match for you Jones. His boundaries are clear which is so important and I know you are very aware of the necessity for those boundaries. More importantly though, I have heard you express frustration for a while about not having enough direction in therapy. Almost like you felt like a sailboat which has lost the wind. There's a lot of stuff moving around, the boom is swinging, the sail is lufting, but there's not a lot of movement forward. I think the combo of someone who is really paying attention to your emotional needs, but also moving things along will really meet your needs. I really think that Manatee is a good theraputic fit for you. This is all really good to hear. Thanks for updating us.

AP (Great, now I sound like a news agency. )

Jones,

I am so happy that you were able to speak up and talk about the issues surrounding the therapy relationship! That is great! Good for you! What a great update, I look forward to hearing more as time goes on.

((((JONES))))

Also just wanted to add to the chorus. I remember reading that you were concerned about when this therapy was going toend. Personally, I know it is such a relief when we are told it can take as long as we need. And, also want to agree with everyone how brave it was of you to take advantage of that open door. I probably would have nodded my head and agreed, no it's not that pressing, all the while crying inside. Three cheers for you!

Very happy for you.

Liese

(((Jones)))
I've been following your story and am so very pleased by your courage and with the great relationship you and your T are building - the content of this last session would have taken a huge pressure off you - now you can just concentrate on the work of healing!

In your post you mentioned you T said this

quote:

And that while some people saw therapy as a way of fixing up something broken, one could also just choose it as part of an active & healthy life, and it was up to me.

Tell him 'thank you' from Morgs - this comment clarified something for me - at my age I'm too old to 'heal' but 'choosing' to have therapy will give me somewhere to go to be 'me' and safe and maybe keep a bit grounded!!

Again, well done
Take care
Morgs

Morglets!!!

Jones,

Just wondering how you interpreted his comment that therapy can be used to fix something broken or as part of an active and heatlhy lifestyle??? Not sure how I interpret it. Told my T I want to be fixed. Conan O'Brien has been going to his therapist for 15 years. My guess is that he goes as part of an active and healthy lifestyle. Just wondering, though, for someone like me, who FEELS broken how I would use it for one or the other. Would one be more long term and the other short term?

Dear AG, STRM, Liese, Morgs (! Hi!! ), & BB, & Liese again - hi!! thanks for thoughts - I will come back to this in a while. love,
Jones

Just wanted to come back and say thanks again for your comments here, you guys.

AG, I'm glad it was good to read! Fun to spread a bit of relief around. I can understand your therapy not taking off till you'd cleared up the issue of whether you could stay or not. Manatee actually said last week he was surprised I was not feeling measurably better after the EMDR, given what we'd got through and the smile on my face after we finished. But I *definitely* have felt measurably better this week. I think I couldn't really let go of the EMDR stuff without having this conversation, somehow. I sorta feel like we might need to talk about it more, but it's okay for now. He really is a good match for me, too, in all the ways you describe. Direction plus attunement - and enough smarts and strength that I feel okay contesting things, putting up resistance, without feeling like it will destroy everything. In other words, he can be the therapist - I don't have to be.

STRM, thank you! It's lovely to have you to share some happiness with. It's great when it goes well, huh? (((STRM)))

Liese, thank you for your voice in the chorus. I was really happy to have actually said what I meant. There is something really nice about that - when you come back to it in memory it feels peaceful. That's something that really spurs me on in therapy sometimes - I can now recognise that feeling when I HAVEN'T said what I mean, and I dread having to sit with it *all week* till I get another chance.... Sometimes that's enough to get me to spit it out.

Morgs, it's really great to see you here. I'm so glad that comment helped - it helped me a lot too. I don't believe you or anyone is too old to heal, but I DO believe it is fine just to choose therapy to choose it, and not put too much pressure on yourself. You take care too, Morgs - hope you are well.

Liese, this question of one or the other... I think it's just that I can see a point coming, I don't know how far away, where I *could* just live contentedly enough without therapy, if I wasn't too worked up about certain goals. I'm not there yet - there's still plenty to 'fix up', as in issues that are actively causing me unnecessary suffering in my life - but I feel that I will get there. Beyond that point I may have necessary pains, but not unnecessary suffering, if that makes sense. (E.G. I hit my thumb with a hammer = necessary pain. After hitting my thumb with a hammer I tell myself what a stupid a-hole I am for doing that, berate myself for the rest of the day, throw my woodwork project out and refuse to eat dinner = unnecessary suffering).

Once I get to a place without too much unnecessary suffering, I may find I still have goals that add to my quality of life, which I want support on. The therapy at that stage wouldn't be fixing something broken, but just part of the lifestyle I choose.

Hope that helps!

love all,
Jones

Hi Jones,

Yes that does help a bit. I was just confused in terms of could someone go see a T and need to be fixed but just ask for quality of life??? Does that make sense? My T is HUGE on not bringing up issues unless the client brings them up themselves. And, so, someone could go in with huge problems but let's just say that they present only one problem or symptom to my T. That's all he will deal with even if he sees other problems, unless that person brings things up to him. I guess maybe what confused me about the quality of life thing was did he mean that someone could choose to use therapy as a salve and he would let them???? Or would you need to get fixed first and then do quality of life therapy?

Or was he basically saying, you're here to get fixed but afterwards you are welcome to stay as long as you want even beyond getting fixed, like say with the EMDR???

Sorry, I don't know why this is so confusing for me.

P.S.

Glad you really like Manatee!!!

Hi Liese,

This is actually a really complex question - it's not surprising it feels confusing.

Does your T tell you directly that he doesn't bring up issues unless the client brings them op themselves?

There could be all kinds of reasons why a T would deal only with the presenting problem:

1) They don't know there are other problems (remember Ts are *not* psychic, despite sometimes seeming that way)

2) They don't feel the client is ready to look at the bigger/deeper problems

3) They feel the presenting problem needs to be taken care of before other work is addressed

4) They feel there is therapeutic value in allowing the client to raise the other issues in their own time.

2, 3 and 4 may well be closely connected. If the situation is or could be 1, I would say there needs to be some much more direct communication from the client before therapy will be effective.

As for my T and the quality of life thing - he did not mean that someone could choose therapy as a salve and he'd let them. He was quite clear (in gentle terms) that he wouldn't support me using it to replace or escape from my relationship, which would be a form of using it as a salve.

The situation we were talking about was a situation after the difficult work of sorting out the big problems was done.

Hope that helps, Liese.

Jones