Hello Puppet

Sounds like you and me have a lot of similarities! I don’t really get this empathy thing either – well I understand what it means but can’t say that I’ve experienced it on the part of most of my Ts. It’s one of the things about which I have reservations about current T (not so much that he’s not empathic, I’m pretty sure he probably is, but that I don’t FEEL it, I’m not experiencing it from him.)

But I’ve only seen my new T for 26 sessions, so it’s still quite early days. How long have you been seeing your T, that you say maybe you don’t know her well enough yet?

My constant refrain in therapy at the moment is ‘I don’t feel heard. I haven’t felt understood’ which is just another way of saying, I’m not feeling any empathy from him.

But in part that is down to me – I agree with what you’ve said about being more in touch with your feelings in the moment eliciting more of an empathic response than telling stories in a detached dead pan disconnected way. I call it ‘show not tell’. I tend to operate under the assumption that it’s the content of what I say that matters, and therefore expect a T to respond empathically to what I’m saying, inferring how I feel beneath the words, listening for the subtext. But I suspect that because I’m not showing what the words, the content, mean to me, the message I’m trying to convey gets lost. Minimizing something, even if out of defensiveness and fear, actually forces the other to minimize it too, and Ts do tend to follow our lead, I haven’t had any T so far assume that I’m really feeling infinitely more than is apparent in the way I describe something. They might think it but they don’t push it on me or try to draw it out of me.

I have had instances with some Ts where I’ve (inadvertently) revealed some feelings about a story I’ve been telling and had incredibly powerful spontaneous responses from them that have bypassed all words and thoughts and affected me directly with the genuineness of their response to me. A genuinely empathic response in other words that has gotten through to me in a way that no amount of talking or explaining could have done. Lol and has made me subsequently redouble my efforts not to reveal how I’m feeling. Go figure

I’ve become bolshie enough in my therapy with new T to confront him about it – like if I’m telling him something (in exactly the way you’ve described, detached, unemotional, generally minimizing the emotional meaning it has for me otherwise I’d be a mess of uncontrollable feelings and wouldn’t get a word out clearly) and feeling like he’s not heard or understood what I’m trying to convey I’ll go ‘WRONG response, you’re not giving me the response I’m looking for’ and he’ll say things like, ‘but didn’t you experience my feelings then, I had an emotional response to what you were saying didn’t you feel it?’ and I’m going NO! It’s all very well him having some kind of internal emotional response to what I’m saying but unless he shows it or better still verbalizes it, how the hell am I supposed to know? He operates on a very subtle understated level and so far I’m still feeling my way around his relatively blank slatish approach, with inevitable interpretations of his responses as negative or misattuned or just plain uncaring.

Puppet I’ve had this problem with all my Ts, feeling like they had no empathy for me, didn’t understand anything of what I was trying to convey to them, and weren’t interested in getting to know what I was really feeling underneath. What’s changed for me now is that I’ve finally found a T with whom I feel safe and comfortable (relatively) in expressing my anger and demands and defensiveness to. Because he’s taken all my criticisms in an unbelievably non defensive and accepting way (I mean, how many times can a T listen to a client saying ‘WRONG RESPONSE’ and NOT get annoyed lol) I’m now feeling much more able to believe that actually, he probably does understand a lot more than I give him credit for, and that when he says he is feeling for me and all I see is a small movement or a fleeting expression on his face I can start to believe that just maybe he actually is engaged, is caring, is feeling something for me. I’m banging on my anger drum here again, but I reckon that if a T is safe enough to take anger at them and criticisms of them and remain totally accepting, then they are safe enough to risk revealing deeper and more painful feelings that will in their expression elicit that important empathy.

So I suppose I’m saying, DO talk to your T about this, do confront her about how you feel about her responses (and non-responses). I gather you’ve already been able to criticize her openly before now, maybe you could be more specific in your criticisms about HOW she comes across as not caring? I find that the more I am specific about the kinds of responses I'm looking for (and not getting) the safer I feel about being specific about my needs, and the more I'm learning about my own patterns of holding back on the feelings themselves…

Wow I think I’ve outdone myself in mega posting here. Sorry for such a long reply. If there’s nothing else you get from my MANY words, I just want to say that I really do relate to your confusion about this empathy thing.

LL

Hi Puppet,

quote:

a T being less empathetic when you are dissociating and more empathetic generally when you are in touch with your feelings and present?

Puppet, what came to mind when I read your post was how I grew up in an environment where having my own feelings and thoughts was not allowed. So I shut them away and "behaved", meaning I learned how to take cues about how I "should" be feeling and thinking from those around me. This "worked"...for a while. But eventually I got very mixed up and turned around and part of the result is that I wound up in therapy, trying to figure out why this was not working anymore...and ultimately, trying to figure out who "I" was.

The therapist I ended up working with for two years (and just ended with last August, because she moved) had a very frustrating (to me) way of just sitting there patiently until I started talking about something. It always, always felt awkward to me, because I have always preferred having someone else lead and then taking my cues from them. It felt intensely uncomfortable for me to start cold like that, because what if I started with the "wrong" thing?

Once I got started talking, though, if expressed a feeling, she definitely "got into it" with me - if I was happy, she reflected that - if I was sad, she told me she saw that and made it okay to be feeling that - if I was angry, she allowed that, too. So as it turned out, I never brought anything "wrong" to the table. And in the two years I worked with her, I grew to be ever so slightly more comfortable putting myself out there BEFORE taking any cues from anyone else about how I was supposed to act or think or feel. And today I am really grateful to her for the gift of that space in the therapy for me to try it out, and have it be okay, no matter what.

I never really thought of this as her lacking empathy. Rather, she was making room for "me" to emerge - whoever that was. And it sounds to me like maybe your T is doing something similar to what my T did. I think it's especially good that your T does show feelings when you do. In fact, I think the word empathy actually means to feel "with" someone, doesn't it? So maybe she waits for your feelings to come out, and then she feels them along with you? I wonder if she is simply making room so that whatever your feelings about what you are relating to her can emerge? Is it possible that if she shows feelings about what you are saying, when you are not showing feelings, would some part of you take that as a "cue" for what you "should" be feeling...and might that not actually taint your therapy...make it about her, in some subtle way...which would keep you from discovering who "you" really are?

Whatever the explanation, I do hope you are able to discuss this with your T.

Peace,
SG

Empathy versus sympathy is such an interesting conversation Puppet. I have my own definition that I use when I try to explain the difference to my children which is based on my own experiences, both how my T responds to me and how I feel when I am responding to my children's pain.

I think sympathy is when you can look or listen to someone and think that hurts because it looks painful or would be painful to me. Empathy is when you can look or listen to someone and recognize their pain even when it wouldn't be painful to you. To me it involves suspending judgement and listening and accepting another person's reality and experiences. But that is a working definition I'm using to try and increase my children's respect and understanding of each other.

puppet,

I agree that you already trust T a lot if you can tell her that maybe she doesn't care at all. Did the conversation after that accusation help you feel her care or empathy. I think there is a difference between detachment and dissociation. So when I've told my stories minimizing their impact or explaining how it wasn't that bad because there was worse I have found my T is very empathetic and seems to demonstrate feelings I don't have. I remember lots of times when my T would say that is terrible or that shouldn't have happened and I would think what does he mean it wasn't that bad. However, when I've been very emotional or dissociative or struggling to contain myself my T has been calmly and consistently caring but hasn't showed as much empathy or emotion of his own which resonates a lot with xoxo's description of containment. I hope you can discuss it further with your T what your idea of empathy is and what it would like if she showed more empathy.


xoxo

quote:

quote:
...and i knew that i was going to fall apart later. i felt her response was cold and analytical and sort of reserved, she just didn't say much... maybe she couldnt relate, maybe it was the way i spoke about it, she didn't 'feel' my pain therefore she wasn't 'empathetic'??

...has anyone ever experienced that? a T being less empathetic when you are dissociating and more empathetic generally when you are in touch with your feelings and present?



Yes! I was mad when my therapist did this the first time I had a major panic attack in his office!! So I asked him-T, how could you just sit there like nothing was happening when I was having a panic attack? Why didn't you comfort me-I was suffering so badly!!?

I actually wonder if you and Puppet are talking about two different things because in her case she wasn't showing her emotions at the time and they came out later when in your case your emotions were overwhelming at the time. I find your description of projective identification and containment of emotions very helpful for me because I think that is very much how my T works. Do you think everyone is capable of learning self regulation that way? I feel like I'm stuck with him containing and me spinning further out of control and I think the dysregulation is getting worse or at least not better.

Thank you everyone for sharing all of this information!

WOW... i am blown away!! a lot of insight and a lot to think about... i dont know if i can do it justice with my reply tonight as i'm tired (and a bit in the 'clouds') after my session... but I'll give it a go as the next couple of days i'll be working long hours.

hi LL, i loved your long post by the way and what you wrote made me feel really 'understood' - thank you for that! although its not nice to see that you struggle with it too. i love the fact that you say 'wrong response' to your T (that takes guts!) and glad he is totally accepting of you and whatever you bring to him. i have sometimes imagined that i could press one of those buzzers like they have in stupid tv game shows...wroong answer! mmm, maybe they sell them online?

quote:

How long have you been seeing your T, that you say maybe you don’t know her well enough yet?

it's going to be a year soon, but for part of it I was seeing her monthly, so maybe about 8 months where it was weekly (but she had 5 weeks off in the middle of it too! ) maybe that's a while, but i'm slow...

this really resonated with me:

quote:

I reckon that if a T is safe enough to take anger at them and criticisms of them and remain totally accepting, then they are safe enough to risk revealing deeper and more painful feelings that will in their expression elicit that important empathy.

i struggle with anger a lot but on the few occasions i have shown her that i was angry about something she said/ did, there was this unfamiliar peace and acceptance that came through, like they bubbled their way up through the thick mud to the surface and i felt a little lighter (i'm not very good with talking about feelings, so sometimes metaphors help me a bit). so i will talk to her about this stuff, but i can't say exactly when as i feel like i can never plan the important things - it depends a lot on how i feel at the time.
your T sounds great LL, i am really happy for you!

hi monte!
my T doesn't make comments that sound as empathetic as that, but actually some of those sound rather 'scary' and i do wonder if would feel them as genuine either...

quote:

I wonder also if the degree to which we feel anothers empathy somehow corresponds to the degree to which we feel empathy for ourselves. Like when you feel unlovable and therefore can't and don't accept anyone else could love you.

beautifully written and that makes so much sense!
i also wonder if it would also be true that if we don't feel empathy for ourselves others would find it harder to feel it for us too. if you feel unlovable, wouldn't it be harder for people to love you (or even know who you are so that they can love you)? i guess just what you're saying, that they tap into the vibes we give. a lot to think about... i find that my intelectual and emotional sides are not very well connected so i can be a bit thick about these things, i either feel and don't understand, or I understand but I don't feel.
thanks monte

hi SG!
wow, i so love what you said about our T's making room for us to 'emerge', that is so moving and beautiful its f*&^ing scary! i think i will let it sink in slowly...

quote:

In fact, I think the word empathy actually means to feel "with" someone, doesn't it? So maybe she waits for your feelings to come out, and then she feels them along with you? I wonder if she is simply making room so that whatever your feelings about what you are relating to her can emerge? Is it possible that if she shows feelings about what you are saying, when you are not showing feelings, would some part of you take that as a "cue" for what you "should" be feeling...and might that not actually taint your therapy...make it about her, in some subtle way...which would keep you from discovering who "you" really are?

you are so clever

hi uv, i like the new name (xoxo)!
nice to see you too! i havent been around much (not actively) but i always like to read your posts and have even attempted to read articles you have recommended
i really liked this from your link:
"empathic immersion is a slow and "plodding," "trial and error," "long-term" process by which the self psychologist "tastes" to an attenuated degree the "flavor" of the patient's experience while maintaining his or her objectivity."
i can understand metaphors, yay
you have written a lot of interesting things, and i will have to go back and read them when i'm in a more intelectual frame of mind. especially the part about 'containment', i think its a new concept for me and i will have to come back to it.
you are right about the fact that there is already some trust established - and i think that really scares me and i fight it!

hi incognito!

quote:

I agree that you already trust T a lot if you can tell her that maybe she doesn't care at all. Did the conversation after that accusation help you feel her care or empathy.

once when i was angry i told her to 'stop pretending that she gives a shit' and it was just good to speak the truth. so yes, i felt 'seen'.

quote:

However, when I've been very emotional or dissociative or struggling to contain myself my T has been calmly and consistently caring but hasn't showed as much empathy or emotion of his own which resonates a lot with xoxo's description of containment

its very interesting what you write about the different ways your T acted when you were minimizing and emotional or dissociative. i think i struggle with the 'containment' concept a lot as i probably never got that as a child. i can't even imagine it. but i guess this is my 2nd chance now in therapy. which maybe also explains why even though i feel like i have a lot of doubts about therapy and my T, on another level, the small part of me has latched onto her so tightly that i feel she will never let her go, maybe she feels really strongly that this is her (2nd) chance... while the adult/ intellectual me cringes

hey ninn! isn't everyone so clever!?


thanks again! my brain hurts now


puppet

The empathy that I feel comes from my T directly relates to all the other experiences I've had with prominent people in my life, chiefly, my father and stepmother.

I think it depends on your perspective of what you feel empathy means and how it derives in behaviour from your T. For instance, I waver up and down constantly during each session. The moment my T smiles, I believe her to be completely and utterly on my side and I feel very touched. But if I perceive her to be 'stern' or deadpan, I see her as cold, uncaring, unempathetic, too 'textbook psychologist', angry, disconcerting, all that and a bowl of chips.

Coincidently my Stepmother and father used to go through mood changes which were somewhat unpredictable. When they were nice, they were fine and I felt I loved them. When they weren't, I felt I hated them and they hated me. It was always up and down each day.

So the perceiving of what empathy means not only in what they say but in body behaviour and tone of voice I think.

hi forgetmenot,

you are right, we can hang on to their every change in expression and it can really affect us. i think my problem with her mostly is that there just isnt much expression and i can't tell what she's thinking / feeling. i can't tell if she is 'on my side', if she understands, if she is disgusted, if she is bored... i suppose this helps bring my own issues and feelings to the surface so in that respect it's a good thing. maybe there isnt anything wrong with the way she is, its the way she works or the way she's supposed to be to make it work.
maybe this way, i can bring more of my issues (with her) to her, rather then just sit in the background and wait to 'receive'... her kindness, her understanding...hmmm... everyone has given me so much to think about!
thanks!

puppet

quote:

I remember your posts from a while back, and you seem different-less constricted, more liberated.

that's the best compliment i've heard in a long time! thank you

i also get a more at peace vibe from you and it seems like you've been doing great work with your T!

hugs,
puppet