Hello TN
Not sure if this will help or hinder, so feel free to ignore. I'm sorry you seem to be getting a blank canvas back, that must be so frustrating . Thinking about my T I suppose she does show empathy or rather attunement as they call it in the model she works from. For me I can see it in her eyes and hear it in her voice particularly when I am distressed,or struggling with words, she changes her whole body language and even the way she sits, kinda leans forward on the edge of her seat or reflects whatever posture I have in the chair and speaks very softly. On a couple of occasions when she has been reading my stuff she has nearly been in tears, or when I have been ultra distressed she does the same thing with her body language but adds in a 'oh sweetheart..'. On other occasions I guess I see it because she reflects back what I have said to check she has got what I meant (like repeating what I said but not quite). I have to say that sometimes I find the attunement and her level of attunment with me quite distressing and this tends to lead me to apologise profusely that I have been so open with her I feel I have to take care of her, which she keeps reminding me that while she knows where that's coming from, there is no need. And other times when I have disclosed something really heavy or the discussion has been really emotional I find her empathy very comforting and I really feel held by her, like when she asks me can she look after a really difficult thing for me, she kinda hugs me with her eyes (a few weeks ago we were talking about something that happended when I was only 7 and I could not feel anything for me then, so she said she would like to look after little me for a while until I feel safe enough to revisit 7 year old me). As I say it's a bit a of a mixed bag the empathy thing for me, when its okay it feels like 'phew t can get me' and when it upsets me, she knows because I'll do everything to avoid looking at her in the face (this is more to do with me not feeling like I am worth her care than her not empathising), so she is very careful with me and may only summarise what I say as she knows the empathy thing can be loaded for me.

I am not certain I would recognize empathy if it happened. I am not being flippant- I really do not know. I am fairly understated and am uncomfortable if t responds with much of anything because it seems completely over the top to me and chaotic. Mine seems fairly reserved but that may be in response to my not positive reaction when she is less reserved.

Hi JMB... thanks for the response. My T does lean forward when I get really upset and he insists that I always look at him when we speak. Sometimes that makes me angry and I say NO. The thing is... when I'm really crying he never says a word. Nothing. I just have to sit there and cry and I feel very alone at those times. I think that is why I put the blanket over my head that time... it was like I was alone anyway so why allow him to see me so upset? I used to actually hug oldT but even before that... I would FEEL hugged even when there was no real hug. I sometimes take with me the feeling of connection from this T but I never feel hugged.

stoppers... I think your T is following your lead on this. he is trying to respect what makes you feel safe and/or comfortable. In my case I have expressed the need for empathy and still don't get it. Maybe he is just incapable or it's not his style or he just does not believe in it's therapeutic value.

Thanks
TN

((((TN)))))

MY T is like your T. He's not as open about telling me why he's not being as empathic as I want him to be. My thoughts are this: that we connect with people on an emotional level. If you or I (just throwing this out, not sure it applies to you) connect with people out of sadness, then we will always connect to sad people. If we connect with more positive emotions, then that's how we will connect with people and we will also connect with happy people.

It's not that you're bad or wrong for having these feelings or wanting empathy from your T.

I completely made this up. This isn't coming from my T. It's something I've been thinking about re: myself. Not sure if it applies to your situation.

xoxoxo

Liese

Thanks for the responses Liese and DF.

I'm leaving in an hour to see him and I suppose I should bring this up because it's really bothering me.

And yes, it does get more complicated because of what happened with oldT. I definitely connected to him on an emotional level. But there is where I NEED to connect and feel the attunement. It's the right brain stuff that needs work. I'm left brained enough and that is where I hide out when things get scary. I've never had a problem relating to this T on a left brained, intellectual level. But it's the feelings and the emotions that get stuck because I think I'm not a place to trust him on that emotional level. I almost feel like when I get really emotional he gets LESS empathic. Maybe he thinks he's being "strong" and stable for me but I still need to know he's human.

Oh, gosh... I'm just confusing myself here...

Thanks again guys.
TN

TN, I'm sorry for this final anniversary for you. I am glad you will never have to go through this exactly again, but I know it hurts. ((((TN))))

What you're saying about empathy really strikes a chord with me because Manatee rarely uses empathy with me. Or maybe it's really sympathy I'm missing. And yet I usually feel like he is very attuned and very alert to what is going on with me. Sometimes he is responding emotionally and I actually see him pull back, it's like he switches his eyes off. And I can't connect to him. When he's like that he can be very tough, and I don't like it. But I have come to trust him. This is what happened a couple of weeks ago when I was saying my relationship was okay and I could live with it, and he said 'fine, then you can live with it'. I felt like he was completely inaccessible to me and I was cut off. But I learned afterwards that he wanted to challenge me, wanted me to own all of my own feelings. If he had just given me sympathy or drawn my feelings out for me I know wouldn't have felt my own anger - or realized how much I was waiting for his 'rescue'. That's something I really feel acutely. He just doesn't play rescuer, and I am starting to feel like I am constantly fishing for that.

Sometimes I notice this in the way he is about my husband too. I will be talking sympathetically about my H's trauma or pain and he is basically unmoved. Sometimes he'll challenge me - like 'so, you let him off the hook because you felt sorry for him?'

He's a total hard-arse, I think I'm saying. Not uncaring at all. But I get the idea from him that he doesn't value people for their trauma. He doesn't encourage me to identify with it too much (or identify H with it too much) or to give it too much weight in my life. He's not dismissive, just - I don't know, focused on the present or something. And if I *ever* have the inclination to dramatize something, it shrivels in his gaze!!

It's a weird thing to adjust to. ((((TN))))

Young T used to do all those lovely things that JmB says her T does. Youngt used to lean forward, speak softly when necessary, would always turn her head to where mine was. I felt she was in tune.

Current T - isn't doing things like that. She actually has a bored look on her face!!!!!

Empathy - despite me telling Young T that i wanted more from her face - she was actually more empathic that T. I miss that.

YoungT would listen to me and reflect and help me understand. T listens and then educates and teaches.

I am frustrated at the moment.

Please bring it up TN - you have to. Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to me - I am feeling that too at the moment. I can do the left brained stuff but I need all the help with the emotions and feelings.

Hi TN
I just wanted to say good luck bringing up how you're feeling re empathy with your T. It is incredibly hard to do but whenever I manage to it is always worth it. Maybe I am just lucky in that respect. But really hope it goes well. You sound like you are having such a tough time with all your anniversaries.
I've never really thought about empathy from myT - can't work out if that's because it's not a thing for me in general or just she's got it right for me...I definitely don't like to see her getting too emotional as then I'd feel obliged to look after her. Maybe your newT is trying to give you space to own all your feelings without getting all muddled up with his? I don't know - it's all tricky and hard but from your other posts he does sound wise and generally supportive so I hope if you can manage to talk to him it makes more sense / feels better.
Good luck

(((((TN)))))

I'm so glad you are going to talk to T about it because it is important. I just found a wonderful article by Kathy Steele re: dependency issues in therapy. Although I know this is not a dependency issue but there was something in there that I thought was really terrific and may apply to how you are feeling. The article had a graph that outlined how the client will feel when the T is too enmeshed and how the client will feel when the T is too distant. It seems clear that you may need your T to move a little closer towards you so that you feel more comfortable. I did talk to my T about it and he says he's working on it. I do like what Jones said about how if she'd felt his empathy/sympathy, she wouldn't have felt her own anger. (I think that's what she said anyway.)

Good luck,

Liese

Hi TN,
This is a big one and I hope you understand my take on it. When T prepared the second office for your to wait on the day of your meeting with oldT, that was empathy. It showed a deep understanding for where you were emotionally and the safety you needed. Maybe empathy is not that childhood yearning for understanding. I remember once when I was taking a counseling class I learned that when someone is crying that if we say something or even offer a tissue that it is showing the T's discomfort with your emotion. Your T seems comfortable letting you experience and go through the grief. I have no doubt that it is hard for him to watch you in pain. I hope you session goes well today. I think about you often

Wow, I just don't think I could really change at a deep level if I didn't feel empathy from a T. I would be permanently angry about it. In fact, I am sure I would run the other way before I'd ever confide in someone with whom I couldn't feel held. TN, I know everyone is not like me, but since I can only see from my own perspective I am surprised that you have come to trust him so much if this is what he is like. And Jones, Manatee would just kill me. I am not that tough. It hurts me to hear what kind of experience some of you are having. Not that my therapy is all rosy either -- definitely not right now-- but at least I've felt loved, and hope to carry that with me. I don't know what to say that would be encouraging. I think its why I steer away from male T's. I don't see them as capable of as much true compassion. I see them as capable of having intellectual brains, but also dominated by a sexual brain, and impatient and cold as a defense against that weakness. Sorry its such a negative view.

((TN))

I'm sorry that this is another painful anniversary. I am glad your T is there for you even though sometimes you may not be able to feel it.

I think the empathy question is a good one and I can relate. I spend a lot of time thinking my T is angry or bored or too flippant with his comments so I have a hard time to feel his empathy. I think overtime he has become more empathetic or I've become more aware of it. Early one I saw him wipe a tear out of his eye when I was telling him something very difficult for me emotionally and I figured something was stuck in his eye. I didn't even consider any other possibility but now I would. His voice gets softer and he looks at me but he never asks me to look at him. He lets me cry a lot but usually asks me to tell him what is going on inside me gently but he doesn't push me to tell him.

A turning point in our relationship was the day I looked at him and thought I could see he cared about me. It scared me and I told him later by email that it did and that I thought he didn't and it caused quit a rupture. At the beginning of this year when we were talking about my childhood and I struggled discussing memories he got quite intense, louder, firmer, in telling me to tell him and again I wrote him and asked him if he was okay. I think it can be hard for a T to figure out how much affect and empathy to show a client and maybe your T is figuring it out for them.

I hope you are able to discuss with T what he means when he says he can't be empathatic because he wants you to get well. It is probably most important that you understand what he means. Is it because he is concerned about the effect of a show of empathy on you? Does he have trouble being effective as a therapist is he is showing empathy? Does it depend on what topic that you are dealing with? or how long you have worked together?

Let us know how it goes.

Hi MH - When I read back over that, he does sound mean!!

But that's not the experience I have at all (not most of the time, anyway!). He often shows a deep, kind and accepting understanding of my feelings and situation, at multiple levels, so most of the time I feel very 'heard'. I guess that's why I changed what I was writing about to sympathy, not empathy - I was thinking that he couldn't do that without empathy. He has also quite powerfully advocated for me to be heard in my relationship with my H too, so I know (most of the time) he's on my side.

He just doesn't get in there beside me in the feelings, and he doesn't encourage me to stay in sadness or hurt about the past. He doesn't *discourage* it, he just doesn't cultivate it. But I want to say this feels right for me, and I have the feeling his approach could be different with other clients. I am pretty tough myself, and I have processed a lot of whatever trauma I had. So although his approach sounds scary, it is pretty carefully calculated, I think. I suspect what I see when he 'switches his eyes off' is that he is working clinically, separating from me and the present moment to think and act in relation to the big picture. Because of the way I am (very self-analytical, very 'stable' in presentation but without bing able to move forward in myself) I suspect we could go round and round my feelings forever if he didn't do this.

I wanted to clarify, to put the 'hard-arse' stuff in context! Different horses for different courses.

Jones

Okay... I had my session and I thought I would update you all who have been SO supportive and generous to me. I loved hearing about everyone's experiences with empathy and their own Ts and what it looks like to others.

I'll address each of the responses after I update you all on what happened.

It was a really difficult session and it totally started out on the wrong foot! He kept me waiting for almost 20 minutes! First he was late with the woman ahead of me (who I try to NOT see as she comes out because I don't like her... I have no other reason aside from the fact that she is attractive and his client ). Then after keeping me waiting for 15 minutes he let's me in and then takes his little walk! Okay, now I'm fuming and absolutely convinced that he is trying to spend as little time with me as possible because I am his worst, most ungrateful, pain in the rear client! When I walk into his office I see that his rolling office chair is set pretty close to the chair where I usually sit and of course I am thinking... gee musta been a powerful session and he was sitting really close to her and of course that made me feel worse. By the time he walked in the room I was already near tears and REALLY NOT wanting to talk to him about anything.

He apologized for keeping me waiting and I did not answer him. He looked at me and asked his usual how are you and I said I'm really sad. He asked what was going on that made me sad and I told him first about the anniversary of the day. How I was missing oldT because of what he gave me. So my T asks me what was it that I was missing so much and I said... something that YOU won't give me. So I got a "look" and he asked... should I ask what it is that I cannot give you? And I said empathy. He said I know I'm not as empathic as you believe oldT was but I do offer you empathy and I said... no you don't. You told me you won't give me empathy because you want me to get better and I have no idea why they are mutually exclusive and if I don't feel empathy then I am just not going to be able to talk to you!

He said "I never said that... I said I would not give you SYMPATHY not empathy and I think I do offer you my empathy" I said NO you said empathy. So he said if that is what I heard from him then he is sorry because he would never say that to me. He thought for a minute and said that he knows that whatever it was that I felt from oldT he realizes had an impact on me and made me feel really good but it may not really be empathy more like sympathy. He also said it was not a healthy thing he was giving me, especially because he was so inconsistent with it and he would give it and take it away arbitrarily.

So I sat there crying telling him that I missed that feeling and it was so good and it made me feel so held, and close and understood. I felt that oldT could feel my pain and understand how difficult it was for me to tell him things and I could tell him because I thought he could relate to me and so it felt okay to tell him. But my T reminded me that he was not safe and it was a false sense of safety. He said having that feeling, whatever it was, became addictive to me to the point that I ignored the other warning signs and red flags. The defensiveness, the inconsistency, the self-centeredness of oldT. I told him I didn't care I just wanted to feel that feeling again and that I KNEW I would never have it again and that made me sad.

So I sat there crying again with my hands over my face and he gave me a few quiet minutes and then said he needed me to come back to him because we needed to talk about this. He had on my fav yellow shirt today and he sat close to me for the entire session, leaning forward. I finally calmed down a bit and looked at him. He said that we had a good relationship... I said it was not like my other one...he said that he tries to show empathy and he thinks that it's me that deflects it, or ignores it. I cannot accept it or take it in. And I said I could not trust any feelings I felt in there because of what happneed to me last time I trusted. I told him that I was afraid to tell him things because it was like there was this huge black abyss in front of me and I'm scared to cross it and I reach for him and he refuses to help me and leaves me there alone and so I fall into the black pit and I'm alone in there with no one. Just me alone.

He looked at me and said... he would never do that and that he has been there all along for me. He asked me what have we been doing for the past year and I said we have been slogging through a lot of mud. He said that he was always present with me through that. I was never alone in it. That he would always respond to my emails and my calls and he hoped he was helpful to me. He said he would never leave me alone in the black pit but that oldT left me there... and in fact he was the one who PUSHED me into the pit. I asked him if he thought a lot of this was just negative transference from oldT and he said yes.

He said he really understood why I was feeling like this. That he was going to leave me or that I would tell him something to make him leave. He said he could actually feel me pushing him away and he knows that I do this from time to time. He told me there is nothing I could tell him that would change his opinion of me because he already knows me and knows who I am and the other stuff is just information. It's what happened to me not who I am.

He asked me what I felt he thought of me and I said that I'm an intellectual curiosity... client dumped by T and falling apart. He said that's an observation not a feeling. So I said he is curious. He said no, what else. I said I have no idea what feeling or emotion is connected to him. I don't know. I think that maybe I just cannot feel ANYTHING anymore. He said that I do feel things that he knows I do and I said ...okay yeah... I feel sad and/or scared all the time. Then I started to cry again and I told him that I despair of ever feeling anything but sad or scared. And when I try to fight those feelings I end up just numb and then I don't feel anything at all. Like I'm shot full of anesthesia of some kind. And that I just knew I would never have those joyful feelings again. The ones I was filled up with last spring when I started to feel better with oldT. When I thought things were going so well and instead oldT was plotting to get rid of me. I lost that and I knew I would never have it back again. My T sat and looked at me for a long time. He said that maybe I would have new and better feelings. Healthier feelings. It may not feel the same but it would be different and better.

During some parts of our discussion he told me I was being petulant and all that was missing was the "foot stomp". He said my inner child was very much in the room today and that he can see me switch back and forth. He said he was glad she is appearing more often now because he wants to know her. I hate her. I told him how after a long time she came out to oldT. He coaxed her out and she thought he was a kind, safe man and then he destroyed her. She is very wounded and she does not trust him at all...why should she?

By now our time was up. It's amazing what we accomplished in only 40 minutes. I had to leave while I was so shaky and dizzy I could not get up. He told me to take my time. I was a little upset that I had no transition time and was still in a highly emotional, dissociative state at the end and I had to just go. Someone was waiting outside. When I was putting my blanket away he told me that he wanted me to know that my candle was one of his most favorite gifts he had ever gotten. He said he loves that it goes on and off by itself and it turns on the same time each day which is the time that I see him. That was nice of him to say. It meant a lot to me to hear that whether he meant it or not.

We shook hands and he rubbed my arm and told me he would be around this weekend if I needed to contact him. I wished him a good weekend. I won't see him until Tuesday due to the hated Monday holiday.

As I reflect on the session I feel somewhat better and it's interesting that was stays in my mind was not all the words he said to me... although some of them were either nice or just interesting to hear... but it's his face. The way he looked at me so intently and seriously and maybe even sadly. When he was talking to me about how he was offering empathy but that I could not feel it for some reason, that it was not getting across to me and if it was I would deflect it away he looked...almost sad in a way. I keep remembering that he looked sad that I could not feel or accept something good that he was offering to me. It's that kind of thing that heals me... not so much the words and the information. I respond to the non-verbals, the emotions in the room, not so much the words.

And so that is what I took away from the session. The way he looked at me. I guess that is a start.

I'll post this now and come back to respond.

Thanks for reading
TN

Wow TN. I read every word and was sitting in that room with you both = I could see you there.

Your T seems so in tune with you - you should take a huge amount away with you. For a session that started off so shakily - what a pissoff that he ran over and kept you waiting - you guys achieved a huge amount.

It will be interesting how you reflect on this in a few hours or tomorrow - a lot went on.

What an amazing session you had TN. I'm so so pleased. It's not just your T healing you, it's you healing you too. Well done for being so amazingly brave after such a shaky start. I loved hearing about yourT saying he'd like to see more of your inner child - that is so special to hear - I had the same comment from myT and it made a big impression on her... and me. And am so glad you are left with a lasting impression of his care - I think you can take credit for letting that care in. Hope the weekend goes ok before you next session.

quote:

btw-he does have empathy. He pats you on the shoulder, he responds to your emails. He points out your positive traits. He is stable and consistent for you. He believes in you. etc. It's not lack of empathy-it's therapeutic neutrality. I struggle with this too. It's the only way to get better. It's hard.

You are doing great. Someday you will see it.

Thanks for your post UV and for pointing out that my T does show caring and that hopefully one day I can feel it and take it in more deeply. I am working towards that. And yes, he is psychoanalytically trained and that does play into some of it. The main issue, I think, is me and the damage caused by the relationship and abandonment by oldT. Those wounds have not all healed yet.

Thanks Somedays...I keep thinking of the session and we did do a lot in a short time. As I think it over I have found some additional clarity in why I am feeling as I do. I think part of why I don't feel him there is that when I'm really emotional or in that very young state he seems to disappear on me because he is very silent during some of those moments...yet when he DOES speak to me I am able just from the sound of his voice to better regulate the emotional state that I am in. I need to talk to him about this. That when he is quiet in there and I'm dealing with very strong emotional, sad feelings I need to hear him or maybe have him touch my arm so I can use his voice his touch to ground me and let me know that I'm not alone.

AnnieLake... welcome to the Board and thanks so much for posting. What you say is true about how the little part feels safer working with him because she DOES come out more often. I think our T's really know how to work with the young parts and that helps. I do think I'll be okay this weekend and if not I know I can contact him and that really helps.

TN

Hey TN

How did the weekend go? I hope you were ok - and great that you can call your T if you need to.

x