i'm with Echoes on this. my mother is a narcissist also and was not abused. we celebrated her 80th birthday a couple years back and her siblings wrote a poem about her and it was titled "The Princess". it wasn't done in a mean way, when they read it it was heart felt. she's been treated as a princess her whole life and believes she is a princess and everybody else her subjects. hurts to say it but it's true.

I don't really think narcissism means a sense of entitlement.

To me entitlement sounds like an issue of non-acceptance of reality. DBT skills can work well for people with this problem.

Your friend just sounds like she doesn't like her situation and instead of accepting it (even if you disapprove and don't like it) rather than fighting against it and giving "shoulds" and "shouldn't" to situations which is only just causing her suffering.

If you don't like your own situation it's easier to feel like other people were just born in to or are unfairly getting something you "should" be getting or somehow you are exempt from having crappy stuff happen. You get what you get - change it if you can, and if you can't then accept it even if you don't approve.

For example, there is a difference between saying: "That should not have happened" versus "It happened, and I'm angry about it"

DBT has really helped me with several things where I feel a sense of entitlement which lead me to not accepting reality which lead me to more suffering than I needed. So, last week I went out for dinner with 2 friends one of them was (literally) 1.5 hours late. By about 1hr (she was in bad traffic) I was getting angry. My first thought was "she shouldn't be late" but here's the thing... she IS late so why waste my emotional energy stewing over that she should or should not be? So, I accepted she was late and though will I wait longer, or not? I decided to wait longer and she showed up. She apologized and asked if we were upset with her, I said I'm not upset but I was a little annoyed and am glad you're here now! She was a little taken back by my honest but I mean, I'm not going to lie and she said a little later 'are you still annoyed? I feel weird' I said no no no but I mean... if I was 1.5hrs late you'd probably let out a sigh or two also! And she said... yea that's true and we were/are fine.

In the past I would have felt like my WHOLE NIGHT WAS RUINED and she shouldn't have done that, etc, etc. But, traffic was bad, she's always a little late anyway and as long as she's not doing 1.5hr lateness all the time, I'll still keep her around

Another example is my ceiling in my bathroom fell in again. Literally rained from the sky and clay and smell and horribleness splattered all over my bathroom. (thankfully it was just shower water, not the toilet from upstairs!). I could have said "WHY ME!? THIS IS SO UNFAIR! I don't deserve to have this problem with my apartment!" But instead... I said... okay.... Cat... this sucks and unfortunately we can't clean it right now because more stuff is falling, we can go buy deodorizer and we can call the maintenance people and unfortunately they will have to cut out the roof and be coming in and out of the house. But that's the way it is. Was I pissed about my roof falling in? YES! Have I felt anger, rage, frustration? YES. But I've got to have my feelings and just experience my feelings instead of fight against what is reality. My roof HAS falling in *again*, why waste the time and energy feeling like it shouldn't have happened when... it happened. I don't' approve at all but I'm accepting it and going with it.

So that is why I don't think entitlement means narcissism. I think narcissists do feel a sense of entitlement, but so do regular folks because they don't have the skills to accept reality. To accept what happens. It exactly plays in to that quote of 'give me the strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference' (however it goes). I can't change that my roof caved in, I couldn't change that my friend was late so rather than protest, I dealt with my emotions, dealt with the situation. Anyway, that's a really long explanation but I'd suggest for anyone with entitlement issues they get some DBT skills. I've really been happy with the success I had in my DBT groups a year or so ago.

Liese this is a topic that’s been right on my mind recently so thanks for starting this thread.

Can I put in a caveat first, that I think the words narcissist and narcissism have taken on an extremely pejorative meaning and are often used way out of their original context. I think that being accused of narcissism, like being accused of being selfish (and they are ALWAYS accusations) is not only unfair in most instances, but can be downright abusive.

quote:

I think it's beyond a what's right and fair type of thing. It gets her, IMO, because she has to work harder for those things and I think she has a sense of entitlement, like why them and not me? Those benefits should be mine

Maybe she does feel entitled (maybe we all do to a greater or lesser degree but because ‘entitlement’ like narcissism, is such a dirty word we can’t admit to it) – but maybe she’s also feeling envy, envy and resentment of people who now have what she’s lost, or just plain envy of people having something she hasn’t. Granted it can be really irritating to have to listen to someone being over the top complaining about something like that and even more irritating to see them acting out on some perceived sense of entitlement, but chances are she feels rubbish inside and the envy/entitlement/resentment she might be feeling are not fun things to experience. Stem more from a gnawing and painful sense of absence and loss than any kind of positive self view.

I’m particularly drawn to the concept of narcissism (because I see a lot of what is called narcissism in myself) and have researched it as much as I can. What I find appalling is the way that books and research and articles and general discussions (like on the internet) always talk about narcissists as ‘they’. It’s always someone else. It’s always about this group of apparently rabidly evil abnormal irredeemably beyond the pale of acceptable social morality individuals who are characterized by their narcissism and nothing else. The impression I get is that ‘they’ have become a convenient enemy, all bad, no good, no redeeming human features, not deserving of understanding or compassion, though occasionally you’ll get a moral sop reference to the unendurable pain at the core of what creates a narcissist.

And here I am doing the same thing, calling ‘them’ ‘they’.

So I’ll switch and refer to it via my own self and experience. Which is a big risk and so I might have to edit/delete depending on how I feel later.

I have a sense of entitlement (admittedly I’m not comfortable with that because it’s seen as something bad and so it gets shoved away out of my conscious awareness along with everything else that society generally considers unacceptable and morally bad) but I’m damned if I’m going to punish and destroy myself anymore than I have already because of a real feeling I experience that simply won’t go away. I could probably give it a load of different names, but that’s just feeding the fear of social judgements and making it even harder to accept who I am. Entitlement is what it feels like so entitlement is what I’ll call it.

Partly I feel the entitlement is justified (stems from the innate sense of self as innocently perfect that ALL babies are born with and thank god I’ve managed to hold onto some of that underneath everything else). Partly I know that I end up with a feeling of entitlement as a (healthy) counter to the intolerable experience of having had my sense of self as a normal ok acceptable human being completely destroyed (by a number of different things, none of them particularly terrible abuse.)

I spent a very long time (many years) consciously believing in and openly acting on the experience of being a worthless bad inferior morally unacceptable undeserving hateful and loathsome waste of space. It was anger that let me crawl out of that unbearable state of experiencing my self as bad, and though it’s taken even more years than I spent in that state, now I’m finally getting in touch with the rage the fury the hatred the envy the jealousy the resentment and the sense of I deserve, I am owed, I demand, I am ‘entitled’ that all those years of enduring the opposite created. And though it’s really really threatening (a definite guarantee of alienating people, incurring moral judgements, being rejected and abandoned and worse, having to experience in reality other people’s view of me as genuinely ‘bad’) it’s something I’m not stuffing away again for anything. That entitlement, that (narcissistic) rage, that envy, that’s where I live, that’s where I’m going to find the remnants of the original me that I need to once again own.

Oh my this is getting a bit heavy and ultra confessional. Sorry about that. But I’m going to leave it as it is for now (could say loads more but I think I’m probably being a bit OTT here already) because I suppose I want the relief of being able to be honest about my ‘badness’ and also hope that maybe it inspires some others to stop having to hide or run away from or judge their own natural feelings and wants and demands that are seen as unacceptable and morally bad by society generally.

It is ok to be ‘selfish’ it is ok to feel entitled it is ok to be ‘narcissistic’ (I make a distinction between being narcissistic and having NPD). The sooner it’s possible to just accept this stuff as ok, the sooner it stops being something that gets more and more threatening and out of control and ends up destroying you and people around you.

Sorry Liese that didn’t at all answer any of your questions or even address what you were saying, but I figured that your questions indicated that maybe you were struggling with the moral implications of entitlement and the like and hope that what I’ve written does make some sense even if it’s totally alien to how you feel and what you believe.

LL



Cat, I found your post really interesting and see your understanding of the concept of entitlement as being completely different from how I experience it. I rather like your take on it. I guess you are looking at it from a pragmatic point of view – feeling entitled only makes your emotional responses more negative and self defeating so it’s logical to alter the way you view reality.

I think my experience of entitlement does stem from the ‘narcissistic’ connection, whereby I don’t think ‘that shouldn’t have happened’, I think (or rather feel, it’s very rarely articulated in my own thoughts) ‘I DON’T DESERVE THAT!’ Which seems to me to be quite different and does have links to the traditional definition of narcissism.

Hi ya all,

I really learn so much from all of you but have a wicked wicked headache right now from being in the car all day. My computer is up and running (yeah) and hopefully will stay that way so I can reply after a little nap.

LL, do not delete a thing. I will kill you.

My current thinking is that it was a mistake putting in that example about my friend and the retirement and that being related to entitlement. The other two examples I think are better examples, the example about her son and the one at the beach with the lifeguard. Or her issues could be related to issues with authority figures or maybe they are the same. IDK.

My friend actually has some very lovely qualities. I just used her as an example because when these things happened they really stuck out to me as being pretty extreme.

But we may all be talking about different things. There is entitlement to our own feelings, which I think you are talking about LL, and which my T ALWAYS encourages with me and then there is entitlement to our feelings to the exclusion of everyone else, so much so that the maintenance of those feelings comes at the expense of others and does not take their feelings into account at all. LL, I think you might have been at the other extreme where you discounted your feelings for so long and now are tired and angry , etc. etc. for doing that for so long. Me too. I don't think you're narcisstic in the sense that "they" are talking about.

But you are right about the way it is treated on the internet as if it was some kind of horrible disease and actually if you google narcissist or any related term, you will invariably see things re: are you a survivor of narcisstic abuse? It makes it all sound very scary.

Okay, have to get that nap. Will be back later to address everyone. It's all a mindf**k as far as I'm concerned.

xooxoxooxo

his is a great thread! Very thought-provoking.

Liese- I agree about the examples of entitlement. You had mentioned that this woman has her own business. It sounds like she DESERVES to have some of the good things in life, as do the teachers. I myself, often feel this sense of "entitlement" because I have worked my ass off, and I like to feel that I have done so for a reason.

The other examples illustrate how a sense of entitlement can be harmful when it infringes on the rights of others to enjoy a peaceful and happy life.

Cat- also interesting perspective. Life isn't fair. We can and should get angry, but we CAN'T control everything. (like the ceiling in the bathroom)

LL: I very much enjoy the way that you are able to see an issue from so many different perspectives.

quote:

The impression I get is that ‘they’ have become a convenient enemy, all bad, no good, no redeeming human features, not deserving of understanding or compassion, though occasionally you’ll get a moral sop reference to the unendurable pain at the core of what creates a narcissist.

Agreed. I see a lot of objectification in regards to BPD and other "personality disorders" as well. According to most sources, everyone else has the "problem", even though we ALL possess traits of some "personality" disorders that show up at some point in our lives. First of all, the math doesn't add up. If everyone assumes that everyone else is the "problem", then either everyone or no one has a "problem".

A perfect example for this discussion... traffic. How many of us feel "entitled" to get where we need to be? The "other" person is always the jerk, the bad driver, but never US. It doesn't add up, does it?

Secondly, I believe that our society is quite uninformed and inarticulate when it comes to emotions. Part of the reason is that most people are afraid to discuss, come to terms with, even make friends with, their OWN emotions. Instead we stuff them or let others take control of our inner lives.

The more we can recognize what is going on inside us, and learn to respect those feelings, the better off we all will be. Instead of demonizing the "other", or demonizing our own "negative" emotions while seething inside, we can accept our entire emotional range, but react/behave appropriately. (thinking of the traffic analogy again)
This ties in with what Cat was saying.

Just one more thought, taken from the book "Power vs. Force"... Anger is at a much higher energy level than shame. Anger can motivate positive change as much as it can destroy. Anger is NOT morally bad. Hurting others is. Stuffing anger is one way to hurt OUR OWN SELF. But it's a strong emotion that takes skill to work with. That's why we need to practice feeling it, articulating it, and sometimes using it.

I know I'm also in intellectual mode, but there is something I am justifiably pissed off about right now, and I feel "entitled" to some good. (not vengeance) I deserve it. And they do say that living well is the best revenge..

Thanks for the great posts!

((((ECHO)))) So difficult when you have a mother that is like this. My mother wasn't treated like a princess but she was an only child and so has trouble seeing that there is any other point of view than her own. In her case, it comes from egocentrism - which, "they" say may be related to narcissism? Not sure. Anyway, I do know how painful it is to grow up with someone like that.

((((CLOSED DOORS)))

quote:

we celebrated her 80th birthday a couple years back and her siblings wrote a poem about her and it was titled "The Princess".

That would have been funny I guess if you didn't have to grow up as her child. It must have been hard.

((((CAT))))

quote:

If you don't like your own situation it's easier to feel like other people were just born in to or are unfairly getting something you "should" be getting or somehow you are exempt from having crappy stuff happen.

That was very insightful. You are on the money there. Great to hear how you were able to handle the situation with your friend. Hope she had a good reason for being 1 1/2 hours late. And sorry to hear about your bathroom ceiling falling down AGAIN!

(((((LL)))))

quote:

Stem more from a gnawing and painful sense of absence and loss than any kind of positive self view.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. You are so right. It helps me look at my friend a little differently. I'm usually pretty good knowing when people are coming from a place of pain. But I missed the boat with that one.

quote:

I spent a very long time (many years) consciously believing in and openly acting on the experience of being a worthless bad inferior morally unacceptable undeserving hateful and loathsome waste of space. It was anger that let me crawl out of that unbearable state of experiencing my self as bad, and though it’s taken even more years than I spent in that state, now I’m finally getting in touch with the rage the fury the hatred the envy the jealousy the resentment and the sense of I deserve, I am owed, I demand, I am ‘entitled’ that all those years of enduring the opposite created.

I'm not so sure I agree with you that that's narcisstic rage. From what I understand (which is little) narcisstic rage comes about when "their" sense of grandiose self is threatened. I know you think it is but I'm really not so sure. I know you also see it as your badness but maybe the truth is that, for you, life DID suck. Maybe you had it harder than the average person. Maybe you deserve to be angry. Maybe you are finally feeling angry about the crap you've endured your whole life. Why not you, LL?

((((NUMBER 9)))))

Great to hear your thoughts. Really liked this:

quote:

Just one more thought, taken from the book "Power vs. Force"... Anger is at a much higher energy level than shame. Anger can motivate positive change as much as it can destroy. Anger is NOT morally bad. Hurting others is. Stuffing anger is one way to hurt OUR OWN SELF. But it's a strong emotion that takes skill to work with. That's why we need to practice feeling it, articulating it, and sometimes using it.

I have to disagree a little with what you said because I'm not sure anyone deserves anything but I'm not so sure of anything anymore. We all make choices. Some of mine were influenced by my dysfunctional past and so, in that regard, perhaps I had less control over certain aspects of them. I feel this way about my friend. She chose a major in college. She chose a lifestyle. It's hard for me to hear her complain about what she doesn't have because of choices she made along the way. Maybe I'm not being empathic enough. I don't have retirement either. I could be really pissed off at what the teachers have as well but I'd rather put my energy into fixing the situation than in complaining about what they have and I don't. But that's just how I look at a situation.

xoxoxoxoo

Liese

Liese:

Yeah, that's a tough one. I work hard, I DO feel like I deserve something for all that effort. I feel like I made good choices, too, so there we have it.

Then again, life isn't always fair, and it's hard to get into the whole debate about who works harder, who deserves more, without getting into a debate that deteriorates into further misunderstanding. The word "entitlement" and "deserve" and "narcissist" can mean different things to different people.

I will give all of this more thought, as I don't think that I have it all figured out, and see what other thoughts you have!

Again, thanks for bringing this up, it's great!

Hey number 9,

I think it's just because there was a period of time when really bad things kept happening to me, time and time again. And I felt like I worked hard and certainly didn't deserve the bad things that were happening to me. And I was angry. And I couldn't figure out why, being a fairly good person, did all these bad things happen to me. But then I just removed myself from it and said, it is what it is and I need to focus on making good things happen.

Funny thing is that I saw an old friend recently and he said to me, Liese, the way I remember you and your H is that for some reason, though you guys worked really hard, life was much harder for you and I could never really figure out why.

Wow, to hear that validated.

Oh, and by the way, T was talking about my mother today and said, I am using this term loosely, but that was pretty narcisstic of her. LOL!!! He doesn't often make comments like that.

Hey Number9 you make some good points. Especially how BPD dx people become objectified in a similar way to narcissists. Only there are lots of people around who’ve been dx with BPD who openly say they are, but no-one ever admits to being narcissist (ok apart from the single NPD forum over on I forget the name of the main forum, and even there it’s more about those who want to talk about the narcissists in their lives). I get a bee in my bonnet about that because I think EVERYONE has ‘narcissistic’ traits (just like many people have ‘borderline’ traits) and it’s just making the definition of the word more and more negative the less people can use it freely about themselves and without prejudice.

I draw the comparison with ‘selfish’. EVERYONE is selfish, to a greater or lesser degree, yet nobody goes around listing selfishness as one of their characteristics unless they’re trying to be ‘brutally honest’, it’s got far too pejorative a meaning, even though it’s about as universally human as you can get.



Liese, thanks for the vote of encouragement about what I said , but I’m going to have to say that despite the temptation to explain away my feelings of entitlement and narcissism as being something else, and regardless of the reasons for them, I definitely fit the negative meanings of the words. And part of being so vehement about it is that I’ve had a gutful of trying to rationalize and find more acceptable terms for who I am. Not that I envisage going up to people and shaking their hands and saying hi I’m entitled and a narcissist pleased to meet you . I’m not THAT comfortable with the whole idea. I just get to a point where I need to rebel against what I call the goody goody culture of morality. My goal is to feel ok about being me, and shying away from using negative terms and labels that nevertheless are a pretty accurate description doesn’t help me reach that goal.

Ok I reckon I’ve said enough now, it’s pretty obvious that a lot of my comments are coming from a place of anger (general internal anger that is, not directed at or caused by anyone or anything here on forum.) Apologies if what I’m saying here is upsetting to anyone or making anyone angry – it’s purely my take on these issues and describes my current struggle with looking inside myself and trying to accept who I really am, rather than its being any kind of indictment of anyone else.

And apologies to you too Liese, I seem to be doing a good job of hijacking your thread .

LL

Edited to remove offensive paragraph.

Echoes I'm sorry that what I've said in my post has upset you - it WAS very strongly worded and I'm going to edit it because I do (believe it or not) understand what it's like to feel not only like you're not entitled to anything, but that you actually don't deserve anything either. So I get what you are saying and yeah, my comments were more of an intellectual discussion type of thing, but even so could be hurtful. Sorry.

LL

Ah, Echoes, you nailed it! So sad but so true - there are those who have been taught that their needs and wants are irrelevant, and that rather than feel worthy of anything at all (happiness, needs met, etc.) they feel shame and guilt and self-loathing. The only thing they may feel "entitled" to is more abuse, in whatever form they've been conditioned to accept, or tragically, embrace. Thank heavens for the Ts out there who effectively teach that joy and love and safety ARE things each of us is entitled to and DESERVE.

Great thread. Hugs to you,


Starry

((((ECHO)))))

quote:

but i know what i feel..and that is that im not entiltled to anything.

It breaks my heart to hear you say this although I'm pretty much in the same boat with you there. First of all, I think you have tons of brains but I don't even care about that. You are contributing to the conversation regardless of what your thoughts are based on and I really appreciate that. I have a hard time too wrapping my mind around these concepts and throw this stuff out there to deepen my understanding. The more I read, the more confused I get, unfortunately.

(((((LL)))))

I'm struggling to find the words here not because I don't agree with you about all the negative connotations surrounding both BPD and NPD but because I do too. There are too many books out there with titles that I find offensive to my basic human fabric: basically a stay away from "toxic" people kind of thing. I was complaining to my T about a friend who said something insensitive and he responded by telling me to stay away from negative people. I know he was trying to help and be supportive but I found it offensive because I envisioned someone saying that about me. I'm sure I've been (still are) that negative person bringing everyone down.

I heard a man I know say something about staying away from negative people and he is perhaps one of the craziest people I know. Most people stay away from him. So a part of me can't help but wonder if the people who need this stuff are the ones who don't have a strong sense of self and can't sort things through and so adopt a one-size fits all approach to life: If she's wearing green pants, stay away from her even though she might be the lovliest person you'll ever meet kind of thing. And so, IMHO, they are the ones who AREN'T looking deeper, looking past the defenses, to the beautiful soul inside. And I'm not so sure I want to be with THAT type of person. I want to be with people with MORE emotional depth.

quote:

Liese, thanks for the vote of encouragement about what I said , but I’m going to have to say that despite the temptation to explain away my feelings of entitlement and narcissism as being something else, and regardless of the reasons for them, I definitely fit the negative meanings of the words.

LL, my understanding of narcissism is that "those" types of people wreak havoc in others lives. I don't know you very well but my impression of you is that you have suffered quite a bit and alone at that. Maybe you have, and I'm unaware of it, wreaked havoc in others lives but from what I see on the forum is that you might withdraw first. Sure, you might have that anger and rage but ... you don't hurt anyone with it except maybe yourself.

On the other hand, if that's who you are, you are doing the right thing in that you need to love and accept yourself for all your qualities, the good and the bad.

I can be and have been very egocentric but don't think of myself as feeling entitled. I tend of think of it as having an incredible wound and, say, the nurse brings me tax papers to fill out. Who the heck could fill out those tax papers when they are in so much pain?

(((((STARRY)))))

Even if we are taught that our needs and wants are irrelevant, does that mean they go away? Or is that we are just taught to ignore them? And if they are still there, does it not mean that we don't feel anger over not having them met?

xoxoxoxo

Liese

Definition of "entitlement":
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement

Definition of "deserve"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deserve

Dictionary definition of "narcissism"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/narcissism


Semantics? I like the word deserve, and I do think that I deserve, based on merit.

The other words are also interesting to explore, but I wanted to clarify the semantics.

In regards to the objectification issue, I am still struggling with this. One of the reasons I DO withdraw and choose a path of solitude is my fear of wanting to relate to other people in an authentic manner, but knowing that it is impossible because of the general perception that any thought or emotion that is "uncomfortable" or even painful, is going to be received as being "toxic" to others. In other words, I don't want to "dump my shit" on anyone, but I just can't bring myself to participate in superficial relationships in which I'm only permitted to present a part of myself. I feel like I'm caught between that rock and a hard place. Strong emotions are usually met with even more disdain: "How to DEAL with Narcissists, Borderliners, toxic people, etc".

Well, the truth may be that we are ALL somewhat toxic. Everyone seems to think that it's always the "other one" that is toxic. Never ourselves. Although I admit that one reason I like this forum is that many have more self-awareness than the average zombie "out there".

Granted, I don't go around wanting to project pain on everyone I see, but it's very lonely to have to deny oneself a real, genuine, deep, and thoghtful exchange. Most people prefer to hand out platitudes or dismiss with a sappy sentiment or hug than actually be present with a a real human being, which means that sometimes there is pain and discomfort to tolerate, as well as connection and comfort. Most of us only want the good stuff, and deny the other "bad stuff" Add to this that many others are simply sleepwalking through life, and choose not to think or feel much at all, and I feel like even more of an intrusion.

So this discussion of the "darker side" of the human experience is quite interesting to me, and I feel worthy of discussion. I hope I also did not hijack this thread, entitlement is a good place to start, I suppose.

I enjoy reading all these posts, and hope to see more!

I should stop before this gets too long

P.S.

Love that everyone is contributing. Please don't feel like anyone is hijacking the thread. I'm enjoying the exchange. Number 9 thanks for the definitions. I'm going to go read them now. And yes, I feel as you do about not being able to go to that superficial place. I have too much pain.

quote:

they are the ones who AREN'T looking deeper, looking past the defenses, to the beautiful soul inside. And I'm not so sure I want to be with THAT type of person. I want to be with people with MORE emotional depth.

I couldn't agree more. I love what you wrote.

quote:

To me entitlement sounds like an issue of non-acceptance of reality

I know someone like this...my sister in-law in fact. Never worked a day in her life born with a silver spoon in her mouth and now married to money and significant money at that. I never forget reading something on her facebook where her friends were commenting on how she deserved this happiness. "Deserved" was the word that made me want to vomit. Please. So if she "deserves" that life, do I "deserve" mine that is clearly not as plush as hers? Does the child growing up in poverty "deserve" that life? Seriously, what has she ever done to "deserve" the things she has. By all means be appreciative for them, but to speak of her in terms of being someone who "deserves" what she has, makes me irritated and annoyed. The reality is there are many people on this earth who do not "deserve" the hardships that they have had to experience, and while she enjoys the lifestyle that she and her friends think that she "deserves", she comfortably closes her eyes to the needs that surround her. She associates with people who don't have baggage, who smile all day and who look and act their part in the shallow and false performance they call life.

I would rather spend my time talking to an angel with scratches and bruises and broken wings than to someone who has never even stretched out their wings.

(((((b2w)))))


"Deserved" was the word that made me want to vomit. I have trouble with that word too. People throw that around all too often without really looking more deeply at it. Unfortunately, we may all deserve certain things but because life is unfair that way, we might not get them. Or people who haven't worked so hard may get things they don't deserve. It's just a cold hard truth.


(((((AG))))))

quote:

that there is this palpable (and appropriate I believe) frustration that people would be judged too quickly and discounted as being worthwhile and worth knowing because they may carry more of their flaws on the surface or be more honest about them. But then it seems that we exercise the same kind of judgementalness to look at people who have more than we do, or obtained it in a way we don't think "fair" and we condemn them for it or if they are outwardly happy then they are being "fake" or "shallow" or only conforming unlike the brave souls who are "real" about what's on the inside.

Very good point, AG. It does work both ways, doesn't it? I agree with you that judging someone, no matter what criteria you base it on, is judging someone.

I'm sorry you have been subjected to this:

quote:

I have had people and co-workers who only know me here and now, literally look at me and say "must be nice" and "well, she's had everything handed to her"

Those of us who know you here know that you haven't had everything handed to you. And to be honest, I was making some assumptions about my T, about life being easier for him because he's smart and hasn't had the friendship issues I've had. But I don't know what his pain is and that was very unfair of me. Guilty as charged.

And, while it may be true that he has had it easier in some regards, I did feel awful for judging his life and what he deserves.

I understand the anger, however, as I do tend to believe that some people have had it easier than others but are less than empathic about it. Those are the people I take issue with. If you've had it easy but can acknowledge that and not feel as though you are better than the next because you just so happen to have been born to or born with or whatever, then I am okay with that.

It reminds me of a woman that the therapist who wrote "Schopenhauer's Porpcupine" treated. I think it was in that book. Either that or the Impossibility of sex. The woman was a Jamaican professor at a University in the UK and hadn't gotten tenure. She was on some kind of panel with four white male professors and they were introduced as Dr. so and so while I think she was introduced by her first name or just Ms. so and so. She had the same degree they did.

She raised an objection to the way she was introduced and all the men said, oh, so, fine, don't call me DR. so and so, just call me .... John.

The therapist, rather astutely, commented that the ability to drop the title was a luxury of the privileged. I agree with her wholeheartedly that it's very easy for someone who has always HAD to say, hey what are you moaning about, to someone who has always had to struggle to get where they are.

Anywhooo, AG, I for one think you deserve everything you have and then some. It probably takes a certain amount of maturity for others to recognize that it's not fair to think you don't deserve your "lot" in life (now) simply because they didn't deserve theirs either. And while it is human to begrudge someone for having something you want for yourself, it certainly doesn't get you (me) much closer to your (my) goal of getting what you want for yourself.


Thanks to both of you for contributing.



Liese

Ah... Envy. Good topic to explore. I am thinking of starting a "shadow" thread.

AG, please don't take this the wrong way. I said it is good to "appreciate" what you have, but to say you deserve it when you have done nothing in fact to deserve it, is something else. Or if someone else on the other side of the coin grew up in poverty with other struggles, well I don't think it is right to say/think they deserve that either. The word "deserve" lends itself to judgement one way or another. I came from very average middle class, made a lot of money through hard work, and had it all taken away through fraud, back trying to sort out the finances that I lost in that process. I am not judging wealth, but rather people who don't appreciate their wealth, and people who make judgemental remarks about others who don't have such wealth. They purposefully distance themselves and have nothing to do with those less fortunate because it is "beneath" them - well I have met angels on this earth who have nothing in terms of material wealth. If you find my comments on this thread insulting or offensive, please feel free to take off these two posts because that was never my intention.

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But I often wonder if you got to know them well enough would there be more compassion for why they feel that way?

AG, All I can remember mostly are childhood experiences. I can't imagine a reason why I would have compassion for them. Can you? And, I'm serious. I can't imagine that I would have compassion for them. They just might feel that's it's not their fault that they were born with whatever and they are going to enjoy the goodies that go along with it. Or they are tired of people clawing at them to share whatever goodies they have or they are tired of people being envious of their goodies. IDK. That's all I can come up with.

I know a woman who is very pretty. She seems to be the type of woman that other women idealize and want to be friends with. I know I did and others who did. But as I got to know her, I learned that she gossiped about everyone, said really mean things about people and kids, especially the kids. That hurt me the most. Finding acquaintances came easily for her (though maybe not true friendships) and in my eyes, she abused the privilege by being so catty and mean about other people. She was always looking for fault in people. It's hard for me to imagine that I would have any compassion for her.

This is a really awesome discussion, one that is really near and dear to my heart, and so I just can't resist popping in:

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I would rather spend my time talking to an angel with scratches and bruises and broken wings than to someone who has never even stretched out their wings.

I really loved what you said here, B2W. Right or wrong, this is really true for me, too. And I don't think it's because I judge people who have been abused as "better". The thing is, I really believe that EVERYONE is broken and scratched and bruised in SOME way - even if many would not call themselved "abused", still, no one gets through life totally unscathed (and obviously no one gets out alive, haha). It's just that it takes different things to find out HOW different people have been hurt, and we don't always get the chance to find out what that is for every person we come across every day (that would actually be impossible I think). But keeping the idea in mind - that's why I have the quote I do at the bottom of my posts ("Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle"), to remind myself that no matter how it "looks" in my brief encounters with people, there is ALWAYS more going on beneath the surface than I will ever know, and to be careful how I interpret (and respond to) the little bit I do see (which I fail at on a regular basis).

That said, I have definitely had trouble (sometimes a LOT of trouble) getting close to some people (okay, MOST people ), and it's been really frustrating and painful, especially when I've opened up to them (which has been admittedly rarely, because the problem is usually ME ), and haven't had reciprocating openness in return...but I really believe it's just because they didn't know how at the time, not because they're shallow or have never been hurt.

I definitely agree with you, AG, that people's situations are NEVER simple and can never be judged easily (if at all?). There is alway so much more to know. I'm sorry you've been judged unfairly and I hope you have the courage to speak up, loudly, when it's called for! I admit that I am uncomfortable around wealth BUT I know that it is my own discomfort and I try hard not to let it get in my way or judge others for it.

And I think that's why that word "deserve" bothers me so much, too...it's WAY WAY too "simple", and kind of loaded. When I hear people say things like that, the way I understand it, it is said in a well-meaning way, but there is just not much meaning in it, really. It's like "have a nice day". You know? Not really meant to be taken seriously.

Well I don't know how much that really added to the discussion but thanks for letting me add my two cents worth.

SG

Thanks for your response AG. I was feeling rather crummy because I don't think of myself as being judgemental, but in truth I also don't think there is anyone who is not at all judgemental. Basically it has everything to do with our own experiences and perceptions.

One of the things that was also on my mind when I was writing that, is that I had just recently had a few conversations with some people regarding refugee status and topics related to immigration based on some of the national headlines making news where I live. There are a good majority of locals (call them locals for lack of a better term) who are SO intolerant of these people and who think they should all just be shipped right back to their countries etc It gets rather heated to say the least. My thoughts on this are - how desperate must they be to climb on a ship and set sail to an unknown land just to get away from their homeland? I have found these locals to be so judgemental, and they can't seem to see that they were just LUCKY to be born in a country that offers what it does. They were just LUCKY to have all the opportunities they have. There are so many people in this world who are in desperate states, and who I do not believe "deserve" that kind of life. It makes me super annoyed when I hear them critisising these immigrants for not being able to have a full command of the English language. I hate it when they say..."if they want to live here, then they must become like us" Hello, Hello....is anyone home!!!! Why can we not just accept them for what they are and look beyond their pronounciations and traditions, since those particular things are in no way affecting us?

It is like this - who eats a fruit salad with only pieces of apple in it? The juiciest fruit salads are made from a variety of fruits. Sometimes I feel like I am living amoungst bananas (pun intended)

So in a nutshell I think the word "deserved" or even the abstract interpretation of the word "deserved", if not properly thought out, rubs me up the wrong way.

As far as my opinions go regarding refugees/immigration etc it is very grey in the sense that it is an extremely complex matter to comment on. There are so many things that need to be taken into consideration, but do I believe those people deserve that life? Not at all. Do I deserve to live in a safe country now? I think we all deserve to have our needs met. I am lucky, but I do not deserve it any more than the next person.

There are so many aspects to the word "deserved".

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But I have to ask, would you judge her as harshly is she were ugly?

No, I wouldn't judge her as harshly. I would make an automatic assumption that life has been harder for her, which may or may not be true, but that is where I would go with it.

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You said you see her as abusing the privilege, as if her having good looks then made her obliged to behave in a certain way?

Yes, I do believe that she was abusing something and that she took advantage of people's willingness to be her friend. She is not obliged to behave

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in a certain way. My point was that I have less tolerance for someone like that than for someone with the same looks perhaps and ease in making friends but who doesn't abuse other people and is perhaps kind.

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and what if she came from a family that was highly critical and taught her to be that way.

That could be very true. Her family could have taught her to be that way.

But the truth is that she DID have a certain social power, and me personally, I do think with any kind of power comes responsibility. But that's just me. What bothered me most was that she was quite biting with her comments about innocent children. I never heard her say a nice thing about anyone.

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"remove the log from your own eye, before removing the speck from your brother's eye."

What speck? I started this thread so that I could understand what the shrinks are talking about when they talk about entitlement issues related to narcissism and never to criticize anyone else or to hash out old, unfinished business. I do that enough with my T. I'm always looking for entitlement issues in myself. I just couldn't find a good example say, for instance, where I told my kids they could play on the lifeguard stand right after the lifeguard told them to get off it. I thought that if anything, that would be what the shrinks are talking about. I happen to really love that women and I am not looking to label her a narcissist. Just trying to put it all together in my mind.

Quite honestly, I'm feeling a bit judged here on this thread. What started out for me to be a purely intellectual exercise now just makes me feel ashamed. Especially by this:

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"remove the log from your own eye, before removing the speck from your brother's eye."

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the "trend" on this thread, no one was attacking anyone on the forum, we were speaking in general terms about our own lives and there is no reason to shame anyone.

to you all!

I kinda missed this thread because I never have time to read many threads anymore, but I've read it just now- it's a little microcosm of our human experience here, and it's a really good discussion. I think everyone has been very respectful and it's a good learning curve here for me.
I was hoping it would be ok to add my two cents, even though...I tend to delete my two cents after posting them, these days. I struggle a lot with the concept of "deserving" versus "undeserving." If people in a certain area of my city saw my life...and knew some of the crappy stuff I've done in my life- for sure, they could very rightfully say that I don't deserve the life I have. On the other hand...I have a number of friends/acquaintances...whatever- who are much more succesafull than I, and by their standards we live in quite destitute a fashion. One friend has often repeated that "You deserve so much better than what you've been handed." At which my inner victim perks up her little head and sighs with contentment... At last, I am understood, appreciated for how hard I have it and how great I am in spite of it! (Seriously- this is me! and it's a part of myself that, while I can't say I admire it, I am gradually learning to laugh at rather than give too much power to ala: "I'm such a bad person" even though...well, I've a long way to go)

But I have to pause when I think on the word "deserve." My thinking is admittedly formed by my philosophy, which many here know, and many do not. But I cannot think that anyone really "deserves" anything! I guess that is a shocking statement, but I just mean...whatever we have is really and truly a gift-. And whatever we lack, is just that- a lack, that causes us pain. But without lack...maybe we wouldn't feel the gifts so gratefully? I don't think it has anything at all to do with deserving. My child doesn't deserve to deal with the stuff he deals with...but, if I am honest...neither does he really deserve all of the good and wonderful things he has in his life that are gift, although I'm of course grateful for what has been given, and would be devastated if it were taken away from him. I seriously am not trying to spout platitudes here. I think it's just a metaphysical reality- something to ponder- what do we really "deserve?" Have I earned my existence? Have I earned my body? Have I earned my physical attributes? (ok, no guffaws from the peanut gallery, no, I haven't had work done) What about income...have I earned the right to be married to someone who makes a living wage? Has he earned to right to make one? I could seriously dip into some kind of communist utopian vision or something here- but it's not really what I'm on about...cause the reality is that some people have more, and it truly isn't "fair." And I'm frequently eaten up by envy and self-pity of people who have more, to the point that I find I soothe myself by seeing all their flaws, and thinking on all their neglects and injustices to me- but...when I've tried to overcome that, I've made some remarkable friends- they are "way out of my league." But there is nothing more difficult, for me, than showing love and acceptance to a person who is smarter, prettier, richer, and more successful in every way than I ever can hope to be. That is actually- very painful, I must say, and I usually default to resentment and jealousy, and brooding over the wrongs they do me- which is much less painful psychologically, to endure!

I'm just saying...that even though I'm weak in those ways, I *want* to realize- this is my life. whether it be in a cardboard box or a house that is...erm...in considerable need of...everything- it's my life. I could- give it away to others if I chose, do something radical like live and work among the poorest, or those most in need...or I could try to make it grander..or I could..give up in despair (which I've been very prone to doing) But as for deserving...I can't think I deserve much of anything at all- and I don't mean that in the sense of "I'm bad, I'm not worthy" it's more like...trying to be at peace, trying to find the ability to be grateful. I love my friend who continually tells me how very hard I have it, how extremely difficult my life is, and how sad it all is...but I *respect* my friend who cheers me on and awakens in me this spirit of gratefulness for what I've been given...idk. She's the one who give me *power.* I sound like pollyanna now...but. Oh- it is just SO hard to explain what I mean. Language is so damn limiting.

What an interesting thread, Liese- thought-provoking. I hope it's ok I popped in for just a minute.

(((((BB))))))

Thank you so much for popping in. I hope you don't delete because you said everything so gracefully and beautifully. Your post was very honest, especially the following:

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But there is nothing more difficult, for me, than showing love and acceptance to a person who is smarter, prettier, richer, and more successful in every way than I ever can hope to be. That is actually- very painful, I must say, and I usually default to resentment and jealousy, and brooding over the wrongs they do me- which is much less painful psychologically, to endure!

I default to resentment and jealousy just as you do. I do think it is a good thing to acknowledge that life is and can be unfair but then to move on from there. And maybe I too suffer a bit from wanting to live in some kind of utopian world. But if we didn't have a vision of something better than ourselves, what would we strive for? Would we just accept the current state of affairs? And should we?

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But I cannot think that anyone really "deserves" anything! I guess that is a shocking statement,

I didn't find that shocking because I happen to agree with you there though I am not always successful at understanding that on a deep level myself.

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I'm just saying...that even though I'm weak in those ways, I *want* to realize- this is my life.

That sounds so healthy to me but I am probably saying that because I am trying to do the same thing.

Thanks again BB for your input.



Liese