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I just got back from a therapy session during which we discussed emotional connections, etc. I expressed to my T that, at times, I doubt the 'realness' of my connection with her because of the physical boundary she sets with me...that is, I desire, at times, to be sexually close with her, and the strict boundaries she sets re this desire make our relationship 'hazy', unclear, more confusing. For me, when I feel so emotionally close with someone, I 'automatically' desire to be sexually close with them.(it seems like such a natural course of events) Because, most times I feel emotionally close with women, I feel more sexual feelings towards women, as well. My T then asked me, "Why is an emotional connection that doesn't turn erotic not as satisfying or 'real' to me?"....Ans--I don't know...I have no 'known' history of sexual abuse so...I don't know...Does anyone out there have any ideas about this topic or feel similar to me? mlc
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I felt that way toward my last T but now she has retired and sort of rejected me too.

It totally destroyed that feeling and I know now that I will never experience that again with a T. It's sort of sad but true.

But it is a good thing to work out. There are some good books that discuss erotic transferences and what they mean and how to work with them. Can't remember titles now.
Hi mlc,

This is my first post on this forum...I've been "lurking" for a few months, especially on the subject of transference, because I've been experiencing it with my T. I don't have time right now to go into details about my own experience but I just had to respond to your post because this subject has been on my mind so much lately.

I would strongly recommend reading through the threads on this site called Transference I and Transference II. I would also like to contribute a link to a page on a website that I found particularly helpful in understanding what is "really" going on with erotic transference, from a psychologist's point of view:

http://www.guidetopsychology.c...tic_transference.htm

Actually the whole site is good if you have time to look around, especially the questions and answers page. There is a link to it at the bottom of the page that the above link takes you to.

And I just have to say thank you to AG (Attachment Girl), JM (Just Me), and all the other members who have been so candid about describing their transference experiences on this site. Your posts have been tremendously helpful in giving me the courage to remain with my therapist and begin working through the transference stuff. I belong to another forum where I brought up the subject but very few seemed to want to touch the subject. This forum is exactly what I was looking for.

More later..."SG" :-)
quote:
Originally posted by strummergirl:

http://www.guidetopsychology.c...tic_transference.htm

Actually the whole site is good if you have time to look around, especially the questions and answers page. There is a link to it at the bottom of the page that the above link takes you to.


Thank you for this link - you are right that it is a good site. I received informal (no payment) counselling online from a T - it ended badly. But the transference remained and I tracked him down 5 years later and we had a personal relationship which lasted 2 years - then it ended badly. For me, I was always the "patient" and he the "therapist" so given that mindset it was doomed to failure and transference based - but ...what can I say - I "loved" the therapist in him and wanted time with him in whatever form I could get. Having to be physical seemed like a small price to pay for his attention.
Hi Strummergirl and welcome to the forums. And you're very welcome for the posts, I'm really glad to hear that its helping you.

I love that you found that link because reading that very site is what made me decide to talk to my T about my feelings for him which has led to an incredibly productive (ok also messy, chaotic, painful, confusing, frustrating and terrifying) couple of years in therapy and more changes in my life and how I behave then I would have believed possible. He has a really good handle on erotic transference.

Mic,
One of reasons that your feelings may always turn sexual may have to do with how you felt as a child (take this all with a grain of salt since I know nothing about your background). We once experienced perfect union with our mothers where all our needs were met without even having to make them known. Then we're born. Then we have the terrible realization that we're actually a separate person. The course of normal development is that our attachment figure teachs us (over many years and in the beginning non-verbally) to identify and name our needs, that we can expect to have them met, that we can be separate but yet be emotionally connected. If we don't get what we need to learn that (which is almost always the case if there's been abuse or neglect), we continue to look for it. Ceaselessly. Our attachment as children is a matter of life and death and to the part of our brain that is still driving up to get these needs met, it still is. As a adult, the closest you can get to returning to a state of no boundaries, of merging with another person is in the sexual act. So, as an adult, if we are seeking to get fundamental needs met that never were, we can often channel them into our sexuality. Hope some of that made sense.

Hi HBShadow,
I'm really sorry for what you experienced, I really think that your therapist unethically exploited your relationship, even if you "wanted" the relationship (and trust me, I know what that feels like).

quote:
I "loved" the therapist in him and wanted time with him in whatever form I could get. Having to be physical seemed like a small price to pay for his attention.


You put your finger on exactly the problem. You shouldn't have to PAY for attention, care, love or connection. I was sexually abused by my dad, and the boundaries have been phenomally important in my relationship with my T (who is more than open to discussing any and all of my feelings, including sexual attraction while being very clear about me being safe). As badly as I sometimes want a relationship beyond therapy, I also understand what a disaster it would have been. I've already experienced being in a relationship that was supposed to be all about my needs, and instead being used for that person's needs, I had to pay by having sex which I couldn't begin to comprehend just in order to get some kind of affection and attention. It has taken me YEARS (and I do mean years!) to work out the damage it caused. My T has taught me what its really like to be in a relationship that IS all about my needs, that I don't have to hold on, or "earn" this relationship.

Have you since another therapist since? I would think it would be really important to be able to heal from what happened.

AG
I've been trying to pretend like this doesn't exist because I don't seem to have any erotic feelings towards my T when I am with her but I have an awful time tying to NOT think about her when I am being intimate with my husband. This is not helping my already not-so-great sex life. Anyone else experience this?
mlc-
quote:
My T then asked me, "Why is an emotional connection that doesn't turn erotic not as satisfying or 'real' to me?"


I think that's a tough question mlc. What's your t trying to do, make you work or something? Wink

I'm kinda out of it these days, but there was one thing I wanted to say to you regarding this. I have maternal and erotic transference feelings for my t- like whenever she says something nice or I feel safe with her, I feel like I want to be close with her sexually but I want to be comforted by her too. It's all quite messy, but the thing I've realized is that my wires are crossed when it comes to nurturance and sexuality... i.e. when i was a child, the only way I got my needs met or got any nutruance was through meeting my mother's needs (holding her, comforting her, doing things for her, just making her feel good overall). So now, when the feelings of maternal closeness kick in with my t, it turns sexual... I want to please her and make her feel good so she will have some reason to meet my needs... like i have to earn it or deflect the intensity of her attention off of me.

I say this because I don't think you have to have been sexually abused in order to want that with your t. I mean, what does the sexual fantasy represent? Have you ever been able to have an emotional connection where someone didn't want something from you or exploit you? Idk if I'm making any sense, but it all made sense in my head before i started writing... Roll Eyes

River- glad to see you're around!!

quote:
I have an awful time tying to NOT think about her when I am being intimate with my husband. This is not helping my already not-so-great sex life. Anyone else experience this?


Yes... I do experience this actually. I won't tell your husband if you won't tell mine... Roll Eyes I don't know where this comes from but damn, it's sure distracting. I haven't approached this one with my t yet... too much else going on! You have any ideas where this comes from? Anyone?

ttyl,
-CT

P.S. Hi to strummergirl and HBShadow! Nice to meet you! And AG!!!! Glad you're around... good to see you back!
River and CT,

If you guys are anything like me, you think about your T A LOT. So, I don't see how that would be any different when you're "feeling intimate" with someone else. (I wouldn't know for sure since I don't have anyone to feel intimate with right now, except for myself, and I do sometimes think about her-my T- when I'm feeling intimate with myself, if it's possible to feel intimate with yourself, but you know what I mean, then I feel sort of weird about it, because I am not at all sexually attracted to her.) Also, you might desire to be intimate, not necessarily sexually, but intimate, with your T, so it would make sense of for you to think of your T when you are feeling intimate with someone else.

Just my thoughts. I hope my rambling and long sentences made sense.

Meow
I pretty much agree with what catgirl and CT said. (Hi CT!!!! It's good to BE back). I know in my own experience, part of the reason that my feelings sometimes tend towards the erotic (ok, "tend" might be a bit of an understatement Big Grin ) is that moving closer with my T finally made me conscious of my problems getting intimate and emotionally close to ANYONE because it scared the dickens out of me. Realizing this led me to become appallingly conscious of the lack of emotional intimacy in my husband's and I's relationship ESPECIALLY where it came to sex (which had disturbing echoes from my childhood). I shut down pretty completely for awhile. As I learned to be closer, it happened first with my T and for awhile there I felt more intimate with my T (mainly because he felt so much safer) then I've ever been with anyone. So yeah, he tended to intrude on my thoughts at some pretty awkward moments. So it makes sense to me that you're feeling that. In a (admittedly weird and awkward Smiler) way I think its an indication of a desire for deeper intimacy with your husband. When you are being physically intimate with him, it's probably evoking the desire to also be more emotionally intimate with him and your T provides the template for how to do that. In many ways, its a healthy sign.

AG
quote:
it's probably evoking the desire to also be more emotionally intimate with him and your T provides the template for how to do that.


This is so very true. I have been able to be more emotionally intimate with my T than I ever have with anyone and it is like trying on a pair of shoes that fit after a lifetime of wearing shoes that pinch - I can't take the shoes that fit home yet but now I would rather go barefoot than to wear the ones I do have that pinch. The intimacy I have with my T has made me so unsatisfied with the emotional intimacy I have with my husband (I was already but now even more so) and since this seems to be something that we haven't been able to achieve despite our work in marriage counseling I just get really really sad. Basically the whole mess just leaves me in tears and who wants to have sex when they know they are just going to hurt and cry afterward because it is so unfulfilling? Sure I am probably asking for too much from sex.... or am I?
quote:
Originally posted by Attachment Girl:

Hi HBShadow,
I'm really sorry for what you experienced, I really think that your therapist unethically exploited your relationship, even if you "wanted" the relationship (and trust me, I know what that feels like).

Have you since another therapist since? I would think it would be really important to be able to heal from what happened. AG


Hi AG - thank you for your kind words. In all fairness to the therapist, our pseudo professional relationship ended 5 years before the romantic relationship started (with no contact during those 5 years) and there was never anything even remotely like therapy in the romantic relationship (it was just my secret desire). And since we never had a formal professional relationship originally (I never paid him), I don't think he really did anything wrong - especially since I kept my desires to have him as my "therapist" not my lover secret.

I think he hurt me far more when he abandoned me from the original "therapeutic" relationship - that was more damaging - when I wasn't making the progress he thought (after a year and a half) I should have been, he told me I wasted his time and he broke off all communication with me. So yes, I did go on to work with other therapists after that - but I always fear they are going to give up on me like he did. And a lot of the time I will just go along with what they say (and lie and say I did what they suggested) because I am afraid if I don't, that they will reject me for not making enough progress and doing what they wanted like he did. I know other therapists aren't him - but I can't help it - and can't trust them or rely on them because of it.
Quick question here guys... since we're on the subject of erotic transference... do those of you who experience it fantasize about a mutual sexual experience with your t's/p's? Or is it more one sided, like all about you or all about them? Just curious... wondering if I am alone in wanting to pleasure/take care of my t but NEVER think about (and don't want to think about) her reciprocating...?!?!

-CT
quote:
Originally posted by Chronically Transferred:
Quick question here guys... since we're on the subject of erotic transference... do those of you who experience it fantasize about a mutual sexual experience with your t's/p's?


The vast majority of the time, I do not experience erotic transference.

However, the few times my mind has wondered in a sexual direction with my T, it's been a fantasy for him to dominate me. To abuse his position of authority and, well, more or less rape me.

I want strongly to be submissive to him. Sometimes it can be quite frustrating that he always treats me as an equal.
When I am with my T I never have any sexual feelings towards her but when I think about her a lot or sometimes during the time just before I see her I feel... well I guess I could say... a bit aroused? My fantasies about her don't necessarily include sex but are more about the safety and intimacy I feel when I am with her and if I could do anything what would it be? I know this will make ya'll laugh but what I really want to do is brush her hair. She has beautiful hair. If I let my mind roam long enough it can get to places I've never actually been with a woman but I guess, to answer your question, it would be more about me giving to her because I feel like I have already gotten so much from her and often feel frustrated that I can't really give her anything but the check.
I also don't really have erotic fantasies about my T. I used to think a lot about her holding me. I, too, have thought about playing with her hair, because she has amazing long, curly, black hair. It's truly unbelievable, and I'd love to get my hands on it, but more for my pleasure than hers. I guess when I fantasize about anything physical with her (and I don't mean sexual, cuz I don't really fantasize about that with her), it's always about her giving to me, or me touching her, like her hair or her soft-looking feet, for my own pleasure.

I've never thought about that before. It's interesting to notice that even in my fantasies with her, I take and take and take.

My biggest fantasy is that she's my mom. I haven't gotten out of that fantasy yet.

quote:
when I think about her a lot or sometimes during the time just before I see her I feel... well I guess I could say... a bit aroused?


This idea came up a couple of weeks ago on a different thread. I was so glad to see that I'm not the only one that this happens to. It's one of those little secrets that I never understood, but carried around for a long time. Now, I see it's rather normal. I'm not sure what it's about though. Any ideas?
In regards to your question CT, I guess my fantasies are more about me pleasing her, at first, and then I spoil it by turning it into a rape fantasy...when this happens I panic and quickly stop my thoughts; feel tremendously bad and evil and guilty, and the desire for self-punishment comes in....so....everything gets ruined....and, in the end, I feel like I don't deserve anybody's love. (I feel soooo ashamed and embarassed!!)mlc
quote:
Originally posted by mlc:
In regards to your question CT, I guess my fantasies are more about me pleasing her, at first, and then I spoil it by turning it into a rape fantasy...when this happens I panic and quickly stop my thoughts; feel tremendously bad and evil and guilty, and the desire for self-punishment comes in....so....everything gets ruined....and, in the end, I feel like I don't deserve anybody's love. (I feel soooo ashamed and embarassed!!)mlc


I don't know if this will help you, but something that helped me. Remember that your fantasies are just that, fantasies. I'd be willing to bet that you don't actually want to be raped in real life, only in your fantasy. I haven't gotten to the core of why I have these types of fantasies, but I do know that I can have a lot of fun with them without letting them invade my "real life."

If you take a look at the porn out there, it can illustrate pretty clearly that you aren't alone with these types of fantasies.
I have rape fantasies too but they have only included men and since my T is female... well if I saw a male T I am quite sure my fantasies would be different. I do see a male T for marriage counseling but thank goodness I don't feel the same way about him as I do my regular T. I don't think I could handle two of these obsessions! Plus since I don't feel this way about him I actually find it much easier to talk to him about sex than I do with my regular T which is good since in marriage counseling sex seems to come up a lot.

Does anyone else struggle with talking about your sex life with your T? Was it easier or harder before the erotic transference happened?

I seriously admire you brave souls who have told your T's about your erotic feelings towards them. I don't know if I could ever fess up to this particular nuisance of my transference with her.
Wow, so much to say in response to this thread!

quote:
I have been thinking about erotic transference and I might be completely out of line here but i have always had the impression that it is a way of trying to redress the balance of power in therapeutic (or any unbalanced)relationships.


HB,
I totally agree with this. I don't think the erotic transference is totally about this but I know it was part of it with me. Especially in the beginning, I felt like I needed my T so badly and needing someone so much was such a dangerous, threatening place for me to be because my father has so abused and exploited that power imbalance when I was a child. If my T was my lover than he would NEED something from me and then I would have power too. We have discussed that a few times.

I recently hit another major realization about the erotic transference. For me it was an attempt at a reenactment of the trauma (I was sexually abused by my dad). I was really struggling with feeling scared about how close I was getting with my T and how strongly I felt about him and even being scared about finally believing he really cared about me. We were discussing it one session after he had been away for a few weeks and he quoted Aldonza's song from Man of La Mancha to Me:

Of all the cruel bastards
Who've badgered and battered me,
You are the cruelest of all!
Can't you see what your gentle
Insanities do to me?
Rob me of anger and give me despair! Blows and abuse
I can take and give back again,
Tenderness I cannot bear!

And it hit me right between the eyes, it was exactly how I felt. His care and belief in my worth was absolutely terrifying me because they gave me hope and hence something to lose. After that session I read an article on trauma that talked about how we tend to reenact trauma. That a traumatized person or animal when faced with two choices will choose the more painful if it's more familiar. I had never experienced being this close to another human being with my boundaries intact and it was uncomfortable and scary and left me feeling off balance. I was unconsciously looking for a way to push it back into more comfortable territory. And one way would be to introduce sex into the relationship so that my T would take the role of my father.

All of this gets complicated by the fact that I am also just attracted to the man for some very real qualities. I've really appreciated when we've discussed these feelings he's open to all those meanings. I will admit it's been worthwhile (if excruiatedly embarrassing) to discuss the topic.

And River, just for the record, it's ALWAYS a struggle but I'm blessed with an utterly unflappable T. There is absolutely no difference in his demeanor or reactions when he's discussing sex. He's the same as if we were discussing the weather. It really, really helps me that he doesn't get uncomfortable. But I will also say that I'm never specific about the feelings, I talk about general desire or what I'm looking for but I don't go into explicit detail. If you could die from blushing, I would if I did that.

OK, last but not least, I've found the topic of the fantasic fascinating. One way that i've known that my T has really helped me to heal has been in the change in my sexual fantasies. My sexual fantasies had always involved a lot of degradation and bondage often with a lot of onlookers something I was very deeply ashamed of and never talked of. Actually this is the first time I've even said it. But when I first discussed my erotic feelings for my T he told me that this was a chance for me to experience a healthy sexual desire in a safe relationship. The first time I heard that it was like "huh?" But his acceptance of my feelings allowed me to stay with it and eventually my fantasies shifted. They're very mutual because the reason my attraction is so strong is that I realized that sex wasn't supposed to be about being used it was supposed to be about care and expressing an intimacy, about another way to acheive emotional closeness. So now instead of being about degradation and humiliation, they're about being cared for and loved. I like it much better this way.

Lastly, I know for me, the erotic attraction is about avoiding the pain. If I could just get my T to really love me (symbolized by a sexual relationship) than I would finally have what I have been hunting for my whole life, the care and love I should have received from my parents. That is what has been SO important about the boundaries. My T frustrating that but being willing to examine all those feelings have helped me to realize that I have been searching for something impossible to find. It's too late, he is NOT capable of giving me what I desire. That has been a very painful realization but one that led to a very necessary grief, a mourning of the loss of not having those needs met. But the grief is healing and has allowed me to get enough of what I need to go on.

I'm really grateful that my T has handled this topic so well and been so calm and accepting about it because being able to deeply examine it has taught me so much about myself and how I relate to people.

All that said I still REALLY want to jump his bones sometimes. Big Grin But I am (usually) very very grateful that I can completely trust him that nothing will happen of that nature between us. That safety is what has allowed me to get so close to him and do so much healing.

OK, I'm really back now, I've done one of my novel length posts. Big Grin

AG
Hi all. I'm new to this forum but stumbled across it last week...one night before my therapy session. I had been thinking about transference as I knew I had issues with my male therapist for a while. However, I had convinced myself that nothing could ever happen and that it was irrational and thus of no real help or importance to my state of mind.

Of course I mentioned this last week in the session and my T said that he had noticed how angry I had been with him recently (sort of to my surprise though I had felt slightly annoyed a few times). The source of this annoyance for me was the depths of despair that I was feeling and that in my mind things were just getting worse and worse and no matter how much I tried to express this to him he couldn't help me. I wanted him to rescue me, for me to give over all responsibility and judgement over my life and let him keep me safe. And when he didn't I felt angry and abandoned. And so when I mentioned transferrence he said that he knew it had been happening but that I had to come to that conclusion by myself, that him telling me that I had developed a dependency would be of no benefit to me. Also, that if he coddled me and gave me attention 24/7 I would,in fact, end up feeling more helpless.

But since last weeks session I have felt hurt and full of grief...almost like a break-up. The feelings of transference have only gotten stronger....it's always been emotional and erotic and it remains the same. My rational side thinks that this pain and transference is all a result of pain from an earlier period in my life that has been triggered off by a recent assault. But it doesn't help. I feel terrible and wonder if there's something more to it.

I long for my T to reassure me and to comfort me and I know that after the next session I will feel as lost as I do after the clarity of what I learn in each session abates. It feels so good when he sticks up for me and shows his protective side. But it kinda makes me angry at the whole situation...that he's just this "tool" in a manner of speaking that i use in the transference process to try to sort things out. I have nothing but praise for him as a T but at the moment I don't know what I should do to help my situation.

Does anyone here think I should discuss the details of the transference with him in an attempt to understand the erotic aspect of it or is it just a sideline part to the real issue?

Thanks for your help and opinions, this is a wonderful forum, full of lots of wonderful people and I mean that sincerely.
I am a bit afraid that my transference can turn erotic at some stage. I didn't really get a chance to discuss it yet since I am still a bit afraid of talking to him openly about how I feel about him. I don't really feel desire, I do know that I feel love and some sort of admiration. However sometimes I am trying to imagine him and me in some erotic action. This fantasy doesn't quite work out. It is like I am trying to find out if there is a posibility of me having this kind of fantasies about him. Most of the time I feel that it is just pure beautiful love, and I think I would like to keep it that way. I think I'm afraid of feeling something more.

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