Hi Pippi... I think your dream is important and you should be able to tell your P about it. I think the dream was about you coming to realize that you ARE very safe with your P no matter what you do, he will not act out anything with you... and he won't reject you either.

As for what you can say in therapy? In a perfect therapy world you should be able to say anything or tell your P/T anything and they should be understanding and accepting of your feelings and strive to understand where they come from and why. That would be in a perfect world. Unfortunately, in my case, when I told my T about how I felt and what I thought and allowed him in to know me, he just abandoned me in an abrupt and harsh way.

Your P seems to have his act together and is able to hold his boundaries so I think it would be okay to relate whatever you want to him.

Good luck.
TN

[QUOTEI do not get this dream at all! At least in my dream I should be able to get some from him.

] [/QUOTE]

Hi, Pippi...it's good to "see" you again! I think your dream is amazing. It seems clear , to me, and take with a grain of salt, since I literally know *nothing* about dreams, that in your dream you are trying so much to satisfy your T *physically* because you think, that will get him to love you as you so badly need to be loved. That you perhaps, have equated giving sex with *getting some* (love, which you deserve) because of your past. Yet, your T will not give in to this, which is *real* love. Sometimes I wonder when I read your posts if you are physically very attractive... I think this is important, because sometimes, we as women will relate our worth as persons to how physically attractive we are to men. Well, you *know* by now, that no matter what, no matter how seductive, or physically attractive you may be, your T will *not* have sex with you...I think this information is telling you something really important about men, and about love, and about what love really is. You seem to have the need, to think that in order to be loved, you must give sex to a man. But, now you have a confusing relationship with a man, where for once, he will not *allow* you to give to him yourself as an object for his pleasure. And this is deeply sad and painfully confusing for you. (((((Pippi)))) Because this is the essence of love- self-restraint, I believe...and if your T is giving you this self-restraint, that will hurt you- because it's not what you are used to. (many more safe hugs) It seems like your dream is telling you this...that love- *real* love- is, not neccessarily letting you do what you will want to do *to* yourself, (out of no fault of your own-) to get love from a man...but love is maybe, saying "no, I will *not* allow you, hurting Pippi, to give yourself to me as an object for my pleasure- even though you may in fact give me some pleasure- at the expense of *yourself*...I won't allow that because you matter to me." Which may, in itself, arouse you, and cause even more painful confusion, yet, you have a loving person who can help with that- all those painful feelings as well...I hope. Does this make sense? I think you should share the dream, and try, -only if you can- not to be seductive with it, as echo has advised, because well, your T *is* human and may get slightly confused or disoriented by that seduction. But that seduction doesn't seem to me like it is any fault of yours, just, what you have learned by such a sad past- you did not deserve. But, maybe, try if you can. If you can't avoid it, I'm sure your T will understand. Maybe, share these posts with him...? That may help.

In the meantime...it seems like you are moving more towards the healing, and that is very brave! Especially, -what you are dealing with- *very* brave. Keep us posted how it goes, sweetheart.

Love,

BB

Thanks for the responses!

echo- in the past he would only get frustrated with details that were specific if I tried to talk to him about it outside of therapy. He has this big thing about me saying I love him or anything sexual outside of therapy, it all needs to be done within the therapy session where he can see how I am acting and know whether or not I am doing it to work on the issue or to get gratification out of it....which does make sense which is why I have not tried to contact him at all about it. I see him in two weeks and I had the same dream again last night. A few things were different but basically the same scenario.

TN- You are right, I do think my P has his act together and I guess the only thing that comforts me with your situation is that your T said they wouldnt leave you and my P has constantly told me that if I didnt watch out or change certain things and try harder that he was gone. Because of those threats it does make it scarier to go in there and be completely honest. And he really has tried to not say that in the last few months after I told him how much that really scares me. I basically told him last session that loosing him was the scariest thing to me ever and he really seemed to get that the threats made me shut down and be scared to say some stuff. But at the same time, I would rather him leave me after saying he was going to than to go through the things you went through. Either way would be completely painful and I dont think I would make it through that situation, but I think I would have an even harder time trusting if it happened like yours did.

Blanket Girl- the thought of even just saying " you were naked" or "I was naked" just seems so embarrassing. I have been open about some details with him but that is when I can write it down, have him read everything and me not have to look at him or know what part he is reading. Now we are at the point that I have to come in and just talk, no writing, just say what I am thinking or feeling and if I write something down I have to read it outloud and actually make eye contact....just the thought seems so scary.

Black Bird- nice to "see" you again too. I will try to be around more but with a 6 year old out of control and my own problems it has been difficult to find time.

What you say does make a lot of sense. Because of my background I do find that love = sex. That you can get a guy to love you and take care of you is to give them sex or anything else they want.

It is intersting that you would mention the physically attractive part because I do not think I am at all. I personally think that I am ugly, fat, stupid. I probably dont think anything good about myself and I dont think that any guy should like or love me. And if a guy does make a comment to me about being good looking I actually feel very uncomfortable and look for what is wrong with that guy for them to think that.
There have been times when I sold Kirby Vacuums that I would have to be dressed up and have makeup on and would get lots of guys commenting on me and when I dress like that all I want to do is go crawl in a hole.
I would feel more comfortable with everyone thinking I was just ugly then actually thinking something good about me. As a kid in junior high I actually wore baggy clothes and dressed like a boy and got a boys haircut. Often would get mistaken for a boy and would get told by girls all the time that I was the best looking boy they had seen....but even with that I would feel more comfortable because they were saying that yet didnt know the real me or what I really looked like.
And looks do play a big role in my therapy session. Before I go to therapy I spend a week picking out what to wear. I would be scared to death to wear a dress or anything really nice but I dont want to go in there with way baggy clothes and not look "good enough" for him. I can only wear my hair down cause I dont want him to see a different part of me that people out in public do. I wear my hair up for church but would never let him see me that way or with make up on. Almost like it would make me feel better to know that he was rejecting me like that, but it might actually hurt if I got dressed up and looked really good and he still rejected me.

I dont even completely understand why I do this and its something I want to change but I am so scared of showing him how I am out in public. My husband and I were just talking about this because my P doesnt even know the real me which means we cant even have a real relationship which is what I want with him so badly. But I am just scared to show who I am.

And maybe part of me is also scared that if I do go in there dressed up and look halfway decent he might end up like the other guys and take advantage of me. I have had several people in my life tell me I am ugly and not good enough, and then the second I get dressed up they want to have sex.

But to basically answer the question, I would probably be considered average looking to everyone else but I think I am the ugliest person who ever lived and do not deserve to be loved or cared for and do not even understand why my husband is married to me. I am still waiting for him to leave and realize what a mistake he made.

I think I am going to go ahead and write down the dream and try to not go into all the seductive details. I think I have learned to be very seductive because of the things I went through during my life and its just another wall I put up to keep people from getting close to me or getting to know how I really feel about things. Or possibly because its easier to be seductive and try to turn it to things that arent really about how i feel to protect myself from getting hurt.

I dont know if any of this stuff I just wrote even makes sense.

I do wish I could get him to just come read everything I have posted on here instead of having to tell him but I might just print it all out.

Pippi,

quote:

the thought of even just saying " you were naked" or "I was naked" just seems so embarrassing.

I know exactly what you mean. I had a dream about my T couple weeks ago, and there was a point in my dream where my T was laying on his bed hard. Saying out loud to him “you were hard” was probably the most embarrassing thing I’ve ever said in therapy. It’s actually easy for me to talk about sex with someone else… but saying “YOU were hard” and “YOU pushed me up against a wall and kissed me” was just too much, even though I know it was only a dream. As I was telling him the dream I paused right before I was going to say it and started talking about Chai tea and lattes from Starbucks… I’m positive my T knew what I was doing because I had set up the dream already of him laying on the bed looking at me and me standing there not knowing what to do….. But I just had to take a breather before I actually said the words YOU WERE HARD. My T didn’t even seem surprised or taken aback in the slightest, which I was scared he might blame me for it- like I must have been thinking sexual thoughts about him if I had that dream.

I hope that your T receives and handles everything well, Pippi. I think that one thing that made telling my T about the dream easier was that after I was done I told him some of my interpretations/ initial reactions to everything so that he knew I wasn’t taking anything in the dream literal I guess? Maybe you could start out telling him just that you had a dream about him, and this is what I think it means… and then after tell him what the actually dream was?

And as far as interpretation or what the dream meant... I was thinking the exact same thing as BB.

Sometimes I think my T is trying to provoke into feeling transference or erotic transference, and thereby discussing it. I like my T very much and am attached, but I really haven't 'gotten off' on the relationship, so to speak! ......one day I was tired and quiet, and he wasn't saying anything but he finally broke the silence by saying something like here we are sleeping together again. He knows it will make me laugh, but it also makes me wonder why he would say that. And he has done similar things....including asking me flat out what I thought of him. I'm comfortable telling him pretty much anything but maybe he thinks i am holding out. He has touched me, held my hands when I was upset, touched my arm on the way out after a session, but never a hug - although there are times I would have killed for one....mostly just from a comfort standpoint.

Do you think there are some Ts or Ps who push the (erotic) transference issue because they think it is important to discuss? Or because at some level they feel flattered by it or like those kinds of conversations?

Hi Drifty! I don't think we've "met" yet so I just want to say welcome to the forum!

quote:

Do you think there are some Ts or Ps who push the (erotic) transference issue because they think it is important to discuss? Or because at some level they feel flattered by it or like those kinds of conversations?

You are asking a really good question here, Drifty. I have some experience with this and have formed some pretty strong opinions about it. But I just want to say up front, you know your situation much better than I ever could. So if this doesn't end up being helpful, then please just feel free to let it blow by.

In answer to your question, yes, there are most definitely Ts/Ps who "push the issue" of transference, meaning feelings for the therapist. Because I had a T once who tried to do just that.

It IS important to discuss "transference", meaning feelings for the therapist, if they come up. But in general, there is a way of pushing it that could be helpful, and a way that could be harmful. It all depends on HOW and WHY the T is doing the pushing.

I really do think that the patient should be the one to initiate this kind of discussion. In that case, if the general nature of the discussion has already been introduced, and now the patient is struggling to put it into words, then "pushing" the patient, in the form of helping them to speak something they already started saying, could be really beneficial to the patient...when done with love and an understanding of what the patient NEEDS to say.

Here is where I have an extremely strong opinion. The focus should ALWAYS be 100% on the PATIENT'S NEEDS (not the T's needs, or the patient's wants). That is what makes therapy "therapy". It is THE defining quality of therapy. It is non-negotiable. The T is supposed to keep their needs out of the room. And also not gratify the patient.

If the therapy ever becomes about the Ts needs or desires, or about gratifying the patient, then therapy is no longer happening. It then becomes a reenactment of the "same old, same old" that happens in real life...we are just making an appointment and paying someone for it.

Now all of that said...I think you are right to be wary of the comment your T made about "sleeping together". First of all, if he's got brain waves whatsoever, then he's perfectly well aware of the "double meaning" of what he said. That's what made you laugh. So the possibility of it being a perfectly innocent comment (like one a non-abused five year-old might make) is pretty slim.

So the question becomes, what did he mean by that? It could have been just a careless comment. It could have been light flirtation. It could have been what he calls a "therapy technique". Or...it could be a red flag that he is possibly not to be trusted.

The only way to know for sure is to ask him directly about it, and then see what happens. Ask him exactly what you asked us here. Ask him why he keeps wanting to know what you think of him.

Generally, there are two possible reactions he'll have. One of them is that he will be completely open to discussing this and be totally non-defensive with you. The discussion will conclude with you feeling more understanding and maybe even some relief. Overall, his response will be primarily about YOU and YOUR needs. By the way, that is the response I REALLY hope you get.

The other possibility is that he might deny that he meant anything by it, and might become very defensive and backpedal or possibly even obliquely accuse you of something. However it looks, it will be some kind of indirect response that leaves you with even more questions than before. Overall, this response would be primarily about HIM and HIS needs.

If you get that kind of response, my suggestion would be to RUN, do not walk, away from this T, because a T like that is either woefully unaware of their own stuff, or they are playing games, and either way, they are not going to be good for you. Most of us do not need a repeat of either one, because that kind of stuff is what brought us to therapy in the first place. Unfortunately there really are Ts out there who think it is "therapy" to play games. And I really strongly disagree with that view. But that is just me.

Some might say, it was just a joke, what's the big deal? I tried to dismiss my former T's remarks that way...but they kept coming. So eventually I asked him about it directly. Initially he was dismissive and defensive, but in the next session, when I asked, then what ARE we doing, he said we were going to look at my feelings about him to see what they said about me. He even drew a picture, so I thought we were on the same page again. But it took me a while to work up the courage to try again. When I finally opened up to him to tell him about some feelings I was having, I was terminated and told that my feelings were "getting in the way of the therapy".

I can now see (over a year later) that what really happened is he wanted to hear about my feelings for his own needs to be liked and admired, but then when I actually did it, he didn't know how to handle it therapeutically. And it really, really hurt to get terminated like that. So this is why I'm saying, I feel really wary of a T who pushes in this way. If he knows what he's doing, there should be no gaminess.

Drifty, it is my gut feeling that his asking you these questions has more to do with his needs, than with yours. You may or may not "need" to talk about your feelings but I really feel strongly that he should WAIT until you bring it up. At the very least, prompting or provoking you like this looks like he needs you to move faster in the therapy...again, HIS need. Not necessarily yours.

But this is my opinion and my preferred way of getting therapy. Not necessarily yours.

Above all...I wish very much for you that your NEEDS for therapy would all be met.

Good luck, Drifty, and let us know how it goes.

SG

Teta Katerina- well its good to know that I am not alone in the having these dreams. Hopefully you will be able to be brave enough and tell your T about this because I think the other comments are right about being honest about it. My old T said the dreams are very important to therapy and I should tell my P about it. But of course I was able to just tell him through email and left most of the details out.
And this might just me sounding brave right now because my therapy session with my P is a week from Wednesday so right now its not that close but I know the day before I will be freaking out about what to do. Luckily I do see my T the day before I see my P so that might help.

So if you are brave enough to tell you T let us know how it goes cause that might give me some more encouragement to go through with it as well. Therapy can just be so hard and scary and knowing what to do it easy but actually doing it is so hard!

I will let yall know....I am getting more nervous each day as it gets closer to seeing my P. I talked to him through email yesterday and today about my medication causing me a lot of pain. I kept seriously thinking about telling him in the email just to get it out there and then he could hopefully bring it up in session but I didnt know how well that would go over since we were having a serious discussion about medication and it would probably make him think I was just playing games.

Things are somewhat stressful right now. Still have the dreams and just longing to be with my P even just to spend time with him or talk to him and hear his voice.

It was a lot worse Saturday night as I was sitting at the emergency room with my son. He is 2 years old and shattered both bones in his left arm. And while I was there holding my son who was in so much pain I just wanted my P there with me to support me through it. At that point I think I was thinking of him more as a father figure.

Tomorrow morning I have to get him into the orthopedic surgeon to see if he is going to have to have surgery and I wish my P could go there with me. The good thing is that I see him on Wednesday so its not that far away. And I get to see my therapist on Tuesday and talk about the dreams and other erotic transference before going in to see my P. So hopefully I will be brave enough and have enough time to talk about it.

pippi, I am so sorry ot hear about your little boy! That is awful. ((((pippi))))

I can certainly relate to the need to have a caring father figure present under such trying circumstances. I would feel exactly the same way. I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. Let us know how it goes, and how your boy does, too.

Love,

BB

Pippi I'm sorry about your little boy... I hope it all works out okay for both of you.

I felt the same way about my T when my son got hurt during the summer. I wanted my T with me to calm me down and share the worry with me. I missed him a lot that night.

TN

Pippi,

I'm sorry to hear about your little boy. I hope that he heals quickly. (((hugs)))

I understand where you are coming from in wanting your P there with you for comfort. It makes perfect sense to me.