Hi, S.

I guess most of us here have been in your shoes. I know it feels so bad now but give it a little time and it will hurt less.

Just get on here and find somebody to talk to.

Think of other things rather than "ending it all". If you have a pet, cuddle up with it; they are great stress relievers. ( Might not work if you have a fish, though):-)
Take a walk, take up a hobby; I am going to try doing some stained glass projects.

Just anything to take your mind off of it. Best wishes with it. Write to me any time you like. Take care of yourself, Lorena

Thanks for the reply, Lorena. I do try to think of other things...unfortunately my energy to do anything else has disappeared.

I simply can't think of anything else but how much I love/want/need this woman. And knowing that she is happy in her life, holding all of her professional boundaries, and not feeling the same for me just sears my heart. Nothing else really seems to matter. It is all muted by this pain.

Thank you for the reply, though. I am glad someone heard me.

S

Hi, S,

Some times you just have to force yourself to do some things like: go to a park and take a walk
( keeping your safety in mind of course), sit and watch the animals; like squirrels, they are quite entertaining. Just do anything to get your mind off of it. I know it is damaging to me to dwell on this kind of stuff. I'm sure it is probably the same with you.

Read a book; I keep a bunch of trashy romance novels around.

Maybe you need to talk to another T to get you over this with her. Since she hasn't been able to do it.

You take care of yourself and if you need to talk, I am on here several times a day. Lorena

Hi S,
Welcome to the forums! You've come to a good place to get info on your problem, there are a number of people dealing with the issue, myself included. Sorry about the delay in replying, lots going on with a getting triggered by my first going off to college. Since the subject of erotic transference has been widely discussed on this site, I'm going to point you to few links I found helpful on other sites, good topics to read on the forum, and a couple of book suggestions. That's not to discourage you from posting any questions you have, but because you asked a general "what do I do with this" question, I thought some of this stuff might help. All the links are below. I'm sorry about all the pain that you're in, this is really difficult stuff. But I'm looking forward to getting to know you and I think you'll find this to a good place to come for understanding and support.

AG

Here's the links:

Erotic Transference in Psychotherapy Reading this is what convinced me to talk to my therapist in the first place. Actually his whole website provides a lot of good information. I actualy emailed him to thank him when things worked out really well when I talked to my T about being attracted to him and got a very nice reply.

Symposium on Transference
Click on this link and look for any entries with "Symposium: 2008" These entries provide links to video and papers from a Symposium held in 2008 on Erotic Transference. Its from the caregiver's point of view but there is a lot of good information.

The Many Hats of a Psychotherapist This guy writes a regular blog about therapy for patients and has some good stuff. On this particular article scan down through the comments until you reach the comment titled "Transference" and you'll get the therapist's take on dealing with it.

Myshrink stuff:

Shrinklady's article on transference is a great place to start. She explains things very clearly and in a way that's easy for a layman to grasp. Transference

Many people who experience an intense transference relationship like the kind you're describing, often have attachment injuries, so I would also recommend reading this page: Attachment Issues

There are two very long threads in the forum that discuss transference from all kinds of angles. Since this is written by the patients struggling with it, I think you'll get a lot of good info from them:

Update on Transference

Transference II

Last, but not least, in the forums, you can do a search (button at the top of any forum page) on Erotic transference which will give you a list of topics that mention it.

I would also recommend two books:

Deborah Lott's In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists This is one of the few books out there that talk about this issue from the patient's point of view. A lot of us found this book really helpful, if for nothing else, because it normalizes this reaction. You feel a lot less crazy after you read it.

A General Theory of Love I recommend this book so much I should get a commission from the author's! This does a great job of explaining how we form our relationship templates, the significance of attachment and how therapy can help us to change those patterns. My T actually read this on my recommendation and we have used it extensively in our work together.

Wow! Sorry that was a bit more than I realized. Hope I didn't overwhelm you. But I know most people are hungry for info because it's hard to find. And again, feel free to ask any questions that come up!

I hope some of this helps.

Hi, AG,

Thanks from me as I will be using this list of links as well. So much info to look at!!!

You have such a wealth of information. Lorena

AG and Lorena,

Thanks for the feedback. AG, I have read some of these things and not others. I devour this kind of material these days so I appreciate it.

It does not matter what I do...she is always on my mind in some fashion. I gather that I get about 90 minutes per day (not consecutive) where my focus is really required that she is not powerfully present for me. It is awful.

Worst of all, she has no interest in anything further with me beyond being my therapist. It feels so unfair, excruciatingly painful, and debilitating.

Thanks for being on the forum and replying.

S

Hi S,
I know how you feel as I've felt quite obsessive about my therapist for a while now and have actually talked to him about it. I was shocked recently when I realized that I had actually gone a number of hours without thinking about him, I'm choosing to take that as a hopeful sign!

quote:

Worst of all, she has no interest in anything further with me beyond being my therapist. It feels so unfair, excruciatingly painful, and debilitating.

S, there is something very important to understand about this. It's not a matter of her having any interest, it's about what's best for you. If she does not maintain those boundaries, then therapy can't happen. Please don't misunderstand me, I know how painful, infuritating and frustrating the boundaries can be (just read a sampling of my posts) and it's incredibly painful dealing with these feelings. But I also know from my experience and reading that the boundaries are there for your protection. A therapist who really cares about you takes care to maintain them. There's a post I wrote awhile back about boundaries that might help:

Boundaries, I finally think I get 'em

It's important to remember, if only for your peace of mind, that the withholding done by the therapist isn't a sign of cruelty or indifference, it's actually evidence of their deep care for you, a care that puts aside all of their own needs in the relationship to help you heal. I'm really glad that you have a therapist who is open to hearing you about these feelings and is staying with you through them.

AG

I believe I understand all of this. And yet that understanding has no impact on the incredible pain I feel. The "it's for my own good" rationalle seems lost on me. But I suppose it does not matter because none of this will change anyway. Now in addition to the pain I have always felt and been driven by over my childhood, I have a new and even more intense pain called erotic transference. Great. The cure (therapy) to me feels worse than the disease (childhood issues of emotional abuse.) Like an operation that kills the patient. They would have died anyway, but the operation created more pain and produced the same outcome.

I have read tons on this and nothing seems to matter.

AG--I so appreciate all of the effort you put into providing support materials. You are a kind soul.

S

Hi S,
Do you mind if I go one more round with you on this? I am in no way trying to denigrate or minimize your feelings and the pain you're in. I have experienced exactly what you're talking about and understand the depth of despair and crippling pain you're talking about. BUT I have also been experiencing working through that pain and alleviating it, so I wanted to just share a few things with you from my experience in case they might help you.

quote:

I believe I understand all of this. And yet that understanding has no impact on the incredible pain I feel. The "it's for my own good" rationalle seems lost on me. But I suppose it does not matter because none of this will change anyway.

Part of what makes this so difficult is that it isn't about what you know, it's about what you're feeling, so the way out isn't through understanding it, it's through expressing ALL of your feelings and having them be heard and understood. You're right, expressing those feelings won't change what the limitations are in your relationship with your therapist, but it can change you. To experience having someone stay with you as you express your feelings, to understand the pain you're struggling with can communicate to you that although you can't have what you want, you still matter and are cared for. I've lost track of how many times I've looked at my T and said "what's the point of getting <insert emotion here> about this, it's not going to change?" only to find that continuing to express all the feelings that come up is how I have healed.

quote:

Now in addition to the pain I have always felt and been driven by over my childhood, I have a new and even more intense pain called erotic transference. Great.

I also really get feeling this way. We were seeing my T for marriage counseling and I can't tell you the number of times I thought, what kind of moron am I? I go to fix my marriage and instead get emotionally involved with the man trying to help me fix it.

But I learned something about my feelings, this isn't a new problem. The incredible pain and longing I was feeling was actually about what I didn't get as a child as well as what I wasn't getting now. This pain and agony has been lingering for my whole life and driving me in so many ways that I was totally unaware of. The theraputic relationship isn't responsible for a new problem or pain in my life, it's a chance to be able to look at my existing pain and finally feel it, face it, mourn my losses and resolve these longings. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to face and the hardest work I've ever had to do. But it has been worth it.

I hear so much hopelessness in your comments, which breaks my heart, because I've experienced that same hopelessness, so I just wanted to tell you that in my experience it isn't hopeless, there really is a way through this. It's just painfully slow. I wish there was something I could say that would instantly clear this up or a magic wand I could wave, but it doesn't work like that.

I'm so sorry for the pain you're in. It's not of your making and you really don't deserve to feel it, but you're the only one who can find you're way out of it. I really hope you won't give up.

AG

AG,

I appreciate the optimism you share. Really I do. And you are right, hopelessness describes me well these days.

If it is a matter of feeling the pain, then I am doing a great job. For the last 3 months I have cried my eyes out in my T's office. She is good about being empathetic for the 1 or 2 sessions I may get with her each week, and then I am gone. She deals with other patients and then she goes home to her husband (and what I reasonably gather after 3 years with her is a good life,) while I am stuck with the pain and heartbroken-ness. It destroys me to think about her and her husband.

And I just wish that she felt the same love for me. But the relationship isn't even a real one. The feelings were all artificially created in the laboratory of her consulting room. I would have never done this therapy if i had known this would be the outcome.

I get that this is all echoing from my childhood of emotional abuse. I can deal with that part of it. This whole transference BS is more than I can take. It is just too overwhelming. And I can't see the path out other than to keep going back to see her for more punishment. More tantalizing of that which I cannot have.

If I could quit I would. But I can't bring myself to do it yet. When I talk to her about quitting I am in tears. AG, you are wise and seem to be on a path of clear feeling. Thank you for sharing that. If I can deal with this, perhaps I'll be on that path someday.

Hi S.

Like a lot of threads on here I have been reading and paying close attention to your issues but have not had a chance and sometimes the right words to post a reply.

I am so sorry for your pain. By what you describe I don't think what I feel is as bad but I think that is because I never really got to address the transference feelings. They were mentioned but never discussed. Like I said before, it was referred to as dependency rather than transference, almost like it was something more negative and less real, that I needed someone rather than I longed for him. My termination with my T came as quite a shock, it seemed abrupt although it had been hinted at. I felt wronged that my transference with him was never discussed. Left with questions if he had feelings and was running away from me or that there was other reasoning behind it. And I don't know and don't know if I ever will. The wondering kills me. I have contemplated emailing him or meeting up again but I dread him rejecting my request or how much it will hurt to see him again, not to mind trying to talk about how intensely how I feel about him. It is emotional and erotic. I know it stems from childhood issues, like you it has a grounding in emotional issues. But while I can see what I want from him, I find it hard to connect my feelings, particularly the strong, erotic ones, to my past.

I envy the fact that you got to speak to your T about it, even though it sounds like it is of little relief. I am glad that she seems comfortable talking about it with you. Besides the physical attraction, can you see the emotional aspects of her relationship with you that you really long for and like? Hard as it is to do, I had to acknowledge that my feelings of wanting an older man (that I have almost all the time) and having him hold me and protect me and listen are to do with past experiences. I can see why I would be attracted to my T under normal circumstances but like I in another post I know very little about him. I deliberately asked nothing about his life. I didn't want to risk rejection or hurting myself further. But now I long to know things about him. I read all the posts here with people who talk about the personal details they know about their T and I feel so jealous. I have seen him in passing around my college and my stomach lurches. On the day I left my therapy I longed for some touch, some words that expressed some of the intimacy I was feeling for him.

Even my appreciation of all he had done for me was met with a simple, you're more than welcome. I felt like I could have been anyone he's met on the street and was just being polite to. I wanted him to fight to keep me, not say "that's life" and that he had to refer me on to someone else.

Sorry for rambling on about my experiences but it's pretty much all As far as I can see, the intensity of the feelings you are having are very very real, so don't put yourself down. However, you need to figure out exactly why you feel them and where they are coming from. Try to focus on that, hard and all as it is. It reminds me of the intensity of the feelings I had for my last boyfriend. I longed for him so much, for his reassurance, nothing every seemed ok. There was always something wrong as I needed reassurance all the time that he loved me, that he wouldn't leave me. My T and I described it as a sugar rush feeling, always wanting more. No matter what he did to reassure me that he loved me and wouldn't leave, I couldn't believe him. his reassurances only lasted briefly. And ironically, it was that intensity for reassurance that drove him away. It was unfair of me to ask that from him, I can see that now and I understand what I need and how I felt so so much better, it was one of the biggest learning experiences of my life. All I can do is hope that you can learn from the pain that you are feeling and feel better in the near future.

Sorry for the length of the post again, once I start these things I never seems to be able to stop!!!

Hi. I'm new here. Never done this forum or chat thing before, though have evesdropped many times!

Just wanted to say hi, tell you that this is all so real to me it is cool and scary at the same time. Feels like I have come home, yet validates my destructive thoughts more. Figure that?!

Shit, you all seem so... um.. me!! Poor you! ;-) (Self pity barely masked as sympathy for others!)

Of course now I am hating myself for even looking at this self indulgent stuff on the internet, but guess you will all tell me that is fine, and that is what I have come here for I guess - to be told 'it' is fine.

Spiral spiral.

Summer,

Thanks for your reply...I understand this at a cognitive level, but the pain is just too much.

I feel that if she felt love in return for me that this boundary BS would be irrelevant. The pain of not having my love returned and of being no more than her patient 50-100 minutes a week sears my heart. It is more than I can bear.

It actually feels like in addition to the pain that brought me into therapy, I now have a new, even worse pain. Wonderful.

I just hurt so much I can hardly take it. Not trying to rant.

S

Hi S and welcome to the Board. You are not ranting you are in pain and for that I'm sorry. I've been there and I still am there at times.

I just wanted to comment on something. You say if your T really loved you the boundary BS would be irrelevant. But it is precisely because your T cares for you that she is keeping and holding those boundaries. This is her way of putting YOU first and keeping you safe enough to do what you need to do in therapy. It's actually quite unselfish caring on her part to keep the boundaries in place. She is showing her unconditional care for you. I know it does not feel that way but it would be easier for her to let the boundaries slip and to indulge what you think you want. But study after study shows that T/patient sexual involvement is VERY harmful to the patient. What your T is doing is protecting you and that is an important form of caring.

I know how hard it is... I hate those boundaries too but I know my T keeps them in place BECAUSE he cares about me.

Perhaps if you keep talking and writing about it you may find some peace with it.

TN

quote:

Hi. I'm new here. Never done this forum or chat thing before, though have evesdropped many times!

Just wanted to say hi, tell you that this is all so real to me it is cool and scary at the same time. Feels like I have come home, yet validates my destructive thoughts more. Figure that?!

Hi JAW, welcome to the forum, I'm glad you decided to post and say hi. I'm really glad that you feel like you've found place where what you're feeling can be understood and that you can feel at home. For so many of us dealing with this stuff, that understanding and acceptance can be really helpful. I am sorry to hear that it validates destructive thoughts though as I wouldn't want you to think that ANYTHING justifies hurting yourself. I hope you'll be able to talk about what you're feeling and find support here.

I know you used the word self-indulgent to describe what we're doing here or how we're discussing it but I want to say that far from being self-indulgent, it has been my experience that the people who are willing to experience and face these feelings are very strong and courageous. Being able to stay and look at these feelings and dig underneath for the meaning is painstaking difficult work.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you.

AG

AG, TN, Summer, S,

What a hard thread to read! I can hardly stand the thoughts in my head and the torrent of emotions they stir. I can understand the rational for transference therapy but my heart feels deeply betrayed. Death is more inviting than to imagine anyone thinking I have some unconscious longing or desire for my therapist! I wish I had the words to explain how strongly I feel about this possibility. I did not sign up for this! I was not told by my T that the therapeutic relationship is most of what happens in therapy.

For the past few years, I mostly ignored the things she did that irritated me. Sometimes I could confront her or disagree with her but i did not try to make an issue of our differences. I needed her help and did not want to let the feelings I felt interfere. In an effort to understand the cause of and process for recovery of repressed memories, I read copiously. What a waste of time! I did not need to read, rather, I needed to let myself feel and bring those feelings to the therapy appointment. I still struggle to believe doing so is most important. Why didn't she tell me they were the key to healing? (Rhetorical question, I know.) I feel like such a fool. I feel incredibly ashamed and deeply saddened. It feels as though I've been purposely set up. I don't want this but I can't stop it and if I understand this, and other threads on the topic of transference, going through it is the only way out. How does one face this and continue to work full-time? What causes such an intense fear of exposure?

Deeply Rooted

Thanks AG. Means a lot. Want to open up on here maybe one time, but not not. Too much **** going on atm, and a VERY difficult day in store tomorrow.

Oh, and I was not accusing others of being self indulgent, just myself. Of course for others it is understandable and laudable to use these sites, it is only for me that it is self indulgent! ;-)

x

AG wrote:

quote:

I learned something about my feelings, this isn't a new problem. The incredible pain and longing I was feeling was actually about what I didn't get as a child as well as what I wasn't getting now. This pain and agony has been lingering for my whole life and driving me in so many ways that I was totally unaware of. The theraputic relationship isn't responsible for a new problem or pain in my life, it's a chance to be able to look at my existing pain and finally feel it, face it, mourn my losses and resolve these longings.

Earlier, I read how we are unable to think clearly while we are reacting emotionally. My last post is certainly embarrassing evidence of that truth. I am less emotional now and, hopefully, thinking more clearly. What I am learning from that outburst is how deeply afraid I am to face the truth of what is emerging from my repressed and/or dissociated memories. I am at least equally afraid that my T will leave me (physically or emotionally) to face those memories alone. I have no hard evidence that this will happen but the postings of abandonment, triggered me. I see that now. If I follow what AG is saying, then this pain is triggering my childhood fears of abandonment and that is a painful reality I need to mourn. In childhood, abandonment forced me to try to figure things out on my own. I had no one as a child whom I could depend upon or to help me process the painful events that were continually taking place; events that left me feeling helpless and powerless. Nothing I said or did could control how other people behaved or the effect their choices had on my life. In counseling, I am learning to find my voice, restore the power taken from me, and choose how I will respond to other people and the effect their choices have on my life. (Do not miss the point that I have not found a way to control what other people do or how they treat me). Learning how to recognize healthy people, living with boundaries, giving and receiving, and exercising trust are not easy lessons for me to learn.

I've thought about what I really want from my T and made a brief list:

I want her to explain things to me. That does not mean I always ask for an explanation but I am aware of that expectation. Knowledge IS power but it is not all there is to find healing.
• I want her to stay attuned to me and help me say or feel what I am unable to express on my own. This reminds me of what I read about shame. Apparently, it is the hardest emotion to process because, to feel it most deeply, it requires the eyes or ears of another. Healing from shame begins when shame meets acceptance in the eyes and ears of another.
• I need her comfort. I am not sure what form of comfort I need. If I asked for a hug she would give it but I am afraid I will enjoy it so I keep my distance.
• I want her to believe what I tell her.
• I want her to stay calm and collected.
• I want her to help me piece together what happened in my past and help me understand the impact it had on my life. My memories do not come in the usual fashion so everything is important.
• I need her objectivity and her help with making connections.
• I want her to be honest with me but not critical.
• I want her to give encouragement but not flattery.
• I want her to believe in me and see the best that I can be; not see only who I am today.
• I want her to warn me of danger I do not see and correct me when I am wrong.
• I want her to keep my confidence. I need to know my secrets are safe with her.
• I need for her to pay attention to the details and do what she is trained to do in order to help me.

Does this sound like I want her to re-parent me? It sounds like it, doesn't it. Yes, these points definitely reflect some of what I lacked growing up. And yet, are they not reasonable expectations of any relationship? Would not a person who grew up in a healthy home have these same desires and expectations?

Thanks to all of you who put so much time and thought in to sharing what you have learned from your journey's. This is definitely the most unpredictable roller coaster ride I have ever taken.

Deeply Rooted (this alias describes how I hope to become)