Puppet,

I found I was confused by that book. I think he was too involved with Ginny and it wasn't at all clear to me how therapy with him helped her. I will say that I am not in awe of Yalom because even though he is undoubtedly a gift therapist I also think he is overbearing and arrogant and a touch narcisstic in his stories of therapy. I actually enjoyed his novel more.

In Love's Executioner I coudn't get over the way he spoke about and treated the client in Fat Girl. In that vignette his counter transference clearly was too much for him because he admits he didn't look directly at her or touch her in any way in a therapy that lasted over a year. I think most clients he treated that way would have been shamed and hurt by his behaviour and the only reason he gives for her not feeling that way was her own self-hatred which he never explored with her because she only admitted it during their last session.

If you are interested in a client stories there is a book called "The Man with the Beautiful Voice: and more stories from the other side of the couch" by Lillian Rubin. I thought she was a therapist I wished I could have worked with who had the honesty and humility to share some stories where the therapy wasn't succesful.

I hope I didn't offend any Yalom lovers because that wasn't my intent.

thanks incognito,
it's good to hear your views - and i feel like i'm starting to agree, especially in terms of whether he was really helping Ginny or not...

in Love's Executioner, the story of the patient he made home visits to really touched me. I thought the fact that he was so honest about his feelings in that book was commendable. But in the case of Ginny, the fact that he shares with her all of those feelings (with no censoring or explanation so that they could be used to serve in her interest) is not at all therapeutic, even damaging... and I find myself really disappointed. Also, the fact that he did end up publishing it, it shows the 'writer' in him won over the 'therapist'...

anyway, it's still an interesting book and it made me think a lot about therapy, about different techniques, different ways of working (he's quite aggressive with her!)

Thanks for the recommendation, I will look up that book. It sounds really promising from what you say!

puppet

I need to find this book. I had trouble finding Love's Executioner on Amazon, but found The Gift of Therapy on Kindle.

The Gift of Therapy was something that resonated with me, (being transparent, responding like a real human being to a client) but I have heard about his novels. My T is also a big fan, and he suggested his works to me, and we could talk about them.

I wonder if he talks about his own counter-transference as a way of critiquing the therapy industry as a whole, in particular those therapists that try so hard to deny or ignore their own countertransference. I also wonder if he, in his novels, simply chose to construct some "gee, I wonder what would happen if" scenarios. Or maybe he can just be an arrogant jerk. Good discernment exercise! (learning to trust/discern is a huge thing for me)

I would rather interact with a person who responded to me somehow, rather than just sitting and reflecting back to me and asking questions. That does not feel like active listening or participation to me. (Read Stephen Covey's book - 7 Habits of Highly Effective people- he writes about it, considers pure reflective listening and rephrasing a "cop out" in terms of active listening) Interesting, indeed!

But anyway, this is what Yalom seems to do. I have not read his other books so this is a good review for me. Is he aggressive and "brutally honest"? That is one thing that has bugged me about my current T..but we are working on that and both have grown. So maybe that was part of the process? To find an effective way to deal with someone who tends to be "aggressive" and needs to be "right"- especially when I know I can be the same way! (Puppet-I can relate!)

So now I'm even more intrigued.. at this point, there is no going back for me- I don't think I would do well with some of the non-responsive, non-interactive T's out there. In real life, we interact with other human beings. We respond to them, they respond to us, even when they pretend not to. I think it would take a lot of skill to work with this in a therapeutic setting, one could screw it up easily, and damage could be done. And having a "good fit" between T and client becomes even more important. But if the T has the courage to admit mistakes, it could work well. My T has taught me to hang in there and tolerate aspects of HIM that I find annoying, and he has hung in there for me, because overall, we actually like each other (gasp) and those things have outweighed the negatives by far (so far)

One thing that strikes me- if this counter-transference is openly acknowledged, all the more reason for the T to be the recipient of ongoing therapy. T's are not gods nor are immune to human shortcomings.

Glad he's at least stirring the pot, it really does need to be stirred, me thinks>

Incognito:

I'll check out Lillian Rubin's book as well, I'm in "sponge" mode!

hi number9!

quote:

In real life, we interact with other human beings. We respond to them, they respond to us, even when they pretend not to. I think it would take a lot of skill to work with this in a therapeutic setting, one could screw it up easily, and damage could be done. And having a "good fit" between T and client becomes even more important. But if the T has the courage to admit mistakes, it could work well.

i think you are so right about this! my T is more the blank slate type so sometimes I found myself quite envious... but i also know that i dont have the ego strength to work with someone like this right now.

what disappointed me in this book (every day gets a little closer) is that I thought his honesty about his counter transference goes a little too far and is more self serving rather then for the client's sake. i agreed with everything he wrote in the gift of therapy. still an interesting book to read, and you can draw your own conclusions.

i'm glad you and your T like each other - sounds like you have good chemistry

puppet

puppet and kansas:

Cool! I just started reading Every Day Gets a Little Closer. So far it seems interesting, (I have not gotten deep into it yet) but I'm most interested in how he deals with his countertransference. I like the fact that he openly admits to his attraction (or lack of) towards a client.

Ginny's passages are hard for me to read because her language is so indirect and flowery- it almost drives me crazy. I have a very hard time understanding what she is talking most of the time.. it takes Yalom's passages for things to get grounded and make sense again. In that regard, he has a lot of patience.

quote:

what disappointed me in this book (every day gets a little closer) is that I thought his honesty about his counter transference goes a little too far and is more self serving rather then for the client's sake. i agreed with everything he wrote in the gift of therapy. still an interesting book to read, and you can draw your own conclusions.

Because you brought this up, I decided to ask my T about this (it would be a concern to me as well, and since my T is very into Yalom, I had to ask)

Regarding the obese woman in Love's Exectutioner- I talked to my T about this, and he mentioned that Yalom deliberately chose to work with an obese woman because of the issues he personally has with obese individuals (judgement, repulsion) I am hoping that he had gone through the therapeutic process himself, any T that works with his or her own countertransference in therapy needs to be VERY VERY self-aware. But it is such a relief for me that my T does- I really appreciate the honesty, knowing where I really stand, what he REALLY thinks of me.. it makes me LESS paranoid, more secure. If he says that he enjoys talking to me, I damn well KNOW that he is speaking his truth.

Having said that, I would add to my list of questions to ask a T (Forlorn's list) if they had read any of his books, and really focus on how they felt about transference, countertransference, and how much they relied on "technique".

The relationship as a love affair- I'm not sure I have an opinion on that just yet. One of her main concerns was her lack of sexual response, and she did a lot of reading on this subject, so it probably worked for them. My T adjusts for each patient. For example,he knows I'm intelligent and sensitive and that I don't allow anyone to get aggressive with me, period, so he doesn't do that with me. If I ever had to find a new T, this would have to be put into some kind of "contract"- it is a boundary that I have. I honor the T's boundaries, they honor mine!! (there is a good way to do this and a not so good way to communicate this)

quote:

I love seeing the way he works - seeing that therapists don't just sit and listen and ask 'how does that make you feel' and that he is a human being too who responds to the feelings and actions of his clients. I think he is very skilled at what he does and he also seems to genuinely care about his patients.

I quite agree- the other thing I would ask a T in an initial interview is how they handle self-disclosure and transparency. I have read here about T's that won't reveal ANYTHING about their personal lives- where they are from, what kind of music they like, etc. To me, (and this is JUST ME) that is a sign of a lack of interpersonal skills. Such sterility just seems less mature and evolved to me. Such rigid boundaries by-the-book rules, (and again this is MY PERSONAL preference) are set up for those who are not ready for real, spontaneous, honest, and creative human interaction like Yalom. He is a benchmark for me now.

I know I have to be careful here... depending on the patient, those rigid boundaries may be appropriate. My point is.. shouldn't that be determined in a case-by-case basis? And yes, the honesty can be scary as hell!

I am also speaking as a practitioner myself in the healing arts - super rigid boundaries were set up in the beginning of my practice because I didn't have the skills just yet, and could have been easily taken advantage of. Now things are a little more fluid, because I have grown. (I can see the other side)

This is just my opinion. I most certainly prefer a bit of self-disclosure on the part of the T, but he has to lead. I had a client once that kept "probing" at me (asking very personal questions, offering inappropriate advice, driving me nuts, basically) while I had her on the table for bodywork. That was not appropriate, and yes, I had to be flexible again and lay down some new boundaries just for her, that would not be necessary with a normal client. I chose not to tell her much about myself as well, that made it easier for both of us. I would never "probe" my T, or push his boundaries, because I have had it done to me and it sucks, and because I am the patient and he is the healer and he needs to do his job. I also learned from my experiences that my client most likely was very lonely and needed to be heard, and I am sad that I was not equipped to help her, or that therapy was something she would not consider (I did not ask, she brought up the subject-she didn't think she needed therapy, that she could just "choose" to be happy, etc... oh, man, she drove me nuts. KUDOS to T's, I don't know how they do it sometimes!!!!!!!

My T shares, willingly, (sigh of relief) and I like that. Helps me feel not quite so alone. Just the right amount. Not too much, not too little.

Transparency is also important. We discuss our relationship, his thoughts in regards to our overall plan, techniques he has used, what he thinks is working or not working overall, books we have read, observations we both have about the world. The whole process is fluid and creative.. it is OUR process, within THE process, and I like that. He knows I don't like to be "tricked" or to have someone "correct" my behavior and ignore my feelings, and that "irrational thoughts" can be a subjective thing. However, to his credit, it is because of his respect and regard for me as another human being that I am now examining the parts of me that I would have just as soon kept hidden. Also, I would never consider being abusive with him, yelling, swearing, etc. Just not something I do in general, and because he treats me with respect, something I would not consider doing. But we can both be blunt at times.

Having said all that, I think that it's good to be a little uncomfortable at times, or ask questions. Especially for those of us who have had encounters with narcissistic types, (or sociopaths) have had problems with undertrusting or overtrusting, or tend to be very, very cynical. My T is so patient- I have actually told him once that I think that he can be arrogant and has a need to be "right" ... (like I do), and oh, isn't that interesting? But this was in response to him telling me that I get "easily offended". Well, I am not a passive type, and the way things turned out was for the best, and ended up being part of our process.

Perhaps that's exactly the kind of T I needed, we are both "softening".. letting go of our egos just a bit... and recognizing our weaknesses and strengths. Yes, I know that he is the T and I am the patient. But if he was just a robot, and I was totally passive, this never would have been revealed.

It's all about the fit!

Very Yalom-esque.

Sorry so long-winded

I would love to hear some more thoughts on this!

Yep!

I wonder if I could get my T to do that... it would make a great project. Perhaps an exchange via Facebook PM?

Sorry so long-winded, btw. I spend a lot of time reading posts and it feels like part of my therapeutic process to do so.