This is one of my biggest issues in therapy too. I remember my first session I never looked higher than my T's shins. I used to think of eye contact as "staring" and even now I think it's ridiculous to have to look at people so much when you're talking to them. If it's just me and the therapist in the room, why would he need eye contact? Who else would I be listening to, come on.

My therapist has to fill out some kind of evaluation thing every six months or so. One of the areas on the first one he showed me was eye contact. And he rated it 60. And I was so pissed. At the time I thought it was really unfair that he would grade me on something I hadn't even been aware he was planning on grading, like giving me a test I didn't even know I had to study for. He tried on several occasions to explain what the 60 was for, but I didn't "get it." The next time I was evaluated I didn't even want to look at it. I figured a 60 was a failing grade and I hadn't discovered how to get good eye contact since then, so I knew it would be another bad grade.

I had a friend who also goes to the same therapist. When I got the 60, I told her about it, crying. It really bothered me that I didn't even know I was going to be observed for eye contact so I was telling her how hurt I was. Then eight months ago I was at an event with her in a group of people, and we were talking to some lady as we ate. Later that week, my "friend" started scolding me that it's no wonder I don't have many friends because I didn't even have eye contact with that lady that night! I saw red. How could she criticize me for something that I'm hurting about already?

When I told my T about that event, he explained the eye contact thing again. (I have a patient T!) And he said the 60 wasn't a GRADE, it was like a percentage of improvement (which is actually wow-holy-cow GOOD!). Then he told me eye contact doesn't measure how friendly you are (like my "friend" was implying) it measures how safe you feel. I finally got that. It made me feel good, then, that I was so shy at the event. Even with my "friend" there it shows I didn't feel safe. Some friend, eh?

Anyway, I totally get where you're coming from about feeling disgusting if my T looks at me when I glance at him. When I'm telling him something painful, from past experience I know people won't care so I'm expecting him to not care and to dismiss me as being a flake or emotional. When I was little and got upset about something, my parents would send me to my room for hours "don't come down till you stop crying"!! So in my session when I feel my heart start hurting I actually feel something shift inside so I will brace myself from the hurt so I won't cry. In my head I know it won't happen but I'm scared my T will say "Oh, you're crying, go home!"

A couple times my T has understood me so well, it felt like playing basketball .. like I would pass the ball to him and he'd just run with it dribbling all the way down the court. At those times, yes, I can look at him with amazement that he GETS it. And I've told him it felt like we were siamese twins and my body had the shared heart and his body had the shared mouth because he was saying everything my heart was feeling. And another time when it started feeling like this, I kept looking away because I felt shy that he knew so much from my heart and really wanted to bolt from the room, and he pleaded with me to please stay with him (in eye contact). You would think it would be scary to be held in eye contact so much talking about something painful but it made me feel incredibly understood.

I think my T is proud of me because those eye contact moments are rare for me, and he's the lucky one who gets to experience them.

Wow, I wrote so much!!

Hi, I so relate to this topic. I've been seeing my therapist for over 3 years now and i never look at her. Even if i am just talking about a job interview, my son or a night out. We have talked about it and i know its because i don't want to see any reaction on her face and the only reaction i expect to see is disgust etc.

I do try and glance at her every now and then and like you CT i feel that i missing out when i don't look her. I wish i could look at her but i just can't bring myself to do it

Hev

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
You have a friend that goes to the same T?! Wow, that would be interesting? Do you compare notes?

I'm not friends with her anymore, but we would talk about him. When she admitted to him that she was in love with him, he insisted her husband had to attend any future sessions if she wanted to keep seeing him. So she was always really jealous of me because I go alone. She would grill me about my sessions and I started wondering if she really cared that I was hurting or if she WANTED me to hurt again just to be mean due to her jealousy or if she just wanted to talk about HIM. Over the summer I lied to my "friend" that I wasn't seeing the T anymore.

She had embarrassed me in front of a group of mutual friends of ours on a couple other occasions so I'm not speaking to her anymore. I've talked to my T about it (because basically I met her through him and I felt horrible that it didn't work out) but he doesn't fault me. Probably more than you wanted to know, right?

Oh I'm definitely in the non-eye contact in difficult times club. My T never takes her eyes off me and I never cease to be amazed at her unfailing concentration on the task in hand. I find my eyes (and my mind) wandering all over the place. . .I often look outside and imagine I was a little bird sat in the tree outside, with none of all this going on in my life and how liberating that would be....

I will not look at my T when I am upset or ashamed of myself (most of the time recently I fear ) I just can't bear to and cannot believe that she remains so positive towards me when I tell her what I do. She often makes me look at her - a painful process of removing my hands from covering my face and daring to peek at her; she says I need to see her face in order to reinforce her words that her opinion of me will not change whatever I tell her. That is so very helpful in the end, but an excruciating process for me to get to.

So a question I ask her often is: what if I were a bad person or did or said something wrong? Would her opinion of me change? What if I admitted to something dreadful for example? And her reply is always that she will always be truthful with me but there is nothing that I have ever told her that has changed her opinion and doesn't belive there will be.

Do you ask similar questions? What are your TS/Ps responses? I get stuck with the Unconditional Positive Regard thing in case they say things because it's almost their job to. Even though deep down I KNOW my T wouldn't do that I guess I'm afraid in case she sees what I really am

Does this make sense or am I the only one fretting over this??

starfish

starfish my T usually tells me that he cannot imagine ever getting mad at me and also that there is nothing that I could tell him that would make him change his good opinion of me. Of course, I'm always afraid I will find that ONE thing that will make him change his mind!

As for eye-contact...our is very good. I find that I get so much more out of a session if I'm looking at him and usually I'm looking directly into his eyes. There have been very few times that I have not kept good eye contact with him. One time I was really traumatically upset and sobbing and I covered my face. I asked him for a blanket and he asked me what I needed it for and I told him to put over my head so he can't see me. He told me that he could still see me even with the blanket and that I could not hide from him.

I find that by looking at him... even when I'm crying, I pick up so much more of his empathy and caring by the look of compassion I see in his eyes. The understanding and the ability to hear me comes through in the way he looks at me and also in his body language. There are brief times that I do look away from him when I'm thinking or sometimes I am drifting away to another place and he works to grab my attention back to him by his moving around.

Aside from all of this... he is just plain adorable and I love looking at him and I miss him when I'm away from him.

TN

quote:

anyone else moved their chair? I think I'm going to give it ago ..

Well, I've sort of been doing a musical chairs thing lately if that counts. My T has 3 couches in her main office, so there are so many choices. Usually her clients choose between the 2 couches which are closest to her personal swivel recliner chair. The third couch is usually used only when she has large group sessions. But early in January I decided I wanted more physical distance between us, as well as a new perspective on the room, so I sat down on that 3rd couch furthest away from her chair (and the door). The look on my T's face was priceless, like she didn't know what to do next. Part way through the session she actually got out of her chair and sat on the floor in front of her chair in order to close the distance. But I found it to be a comforting spot and have sat there every visit since, until last week when I mixed it up again and sat on a closer couch. But now when my T sees me sit down on the 3rd couch, she heaves-drags her recliner a few feet closer to me to shorten the physical distance. She's not exactly a physically strong woman, so it takes all she's got. I sort of have this mixed feeling of "I'm so sorry I am making you use your muscles" and "Wow, isn't it neat that I have this power to make you come to me." I have offered to move her chair for her to alleviate my guilt, but she hasn't taken me up on it. However, last week when I said, "I think I'll sit closer today" she didn't hide her relief when she answered, "Good!"

quote:

Oh I'm definitely in the non-eye contact in difficult times club. My T never takes her eyes off me and I never cease to be amazed at her unfailing concentration on the task in hand.

Ditto to all that, starfish. Even though I break eye-contact constantly, whenever I venture to re-engage I always find my T right there waiting for me, and it is very comforting. Maybe it is one reason why I come away disturbed whenever we've had phone sessions, because though she can have a sweet voice there isn't quite the same level of connection. I do wish I could make myself hold eye-contact longer.

MH... my T has offered a few times to do phone sessions when he could not be around and I have declined. Mostly because I need to SEE him and feel his body language while we talk. I have chatted with him on the phone for a few minutes here and there when I've contacted him for emergency reassurance and support but I don't think I would like to have a formal session that way.

As for musical chairs LOL...my T has two places you can sit in his office. The couch which is on the other side of the coffee table from his swivel, rolling rocker or a french chair which is just opposite his chair on the same side of the coffee table. When I first started with him I would sit on the couch but I didn't like it for two reasons... one that it was a saggy couch that I would sink into and feel like I was sitting in a hole LOL and secondly...I just felt too far away from him and the table felt like a barrier between us. So one day I moved to the french chair and we had our session and then at the end of the session I asked him... so do you want to say anything about my changing seats? And he smiled and asked me "do you want to tell me?" So I told him it's because I didn't like the couch and he said...is it too low for you? And I hesitated but I told him that it was too far away from him and I didn't like the coffee table being there. He grinned and said...so you want to be closer to me and I nodded. He told me I was very brave to change seats and also to tell him why I changed seats. He said that not many people would admit to that, even if they did switch seats. I have sat there ever since.

On the topic of seats... has anyone ever sat in their T's chair? My T suggested one time that we exchange seats and I agreed. We also switched roles and I was the T and he was ME! It was funny and silly and we laughed a lot but it was also very sobering to see and hear how well he knew me and could say the things that I would have said to him. It was also sobering to feel the weight of having to sit in his chair and the responsibility that he has in trying to help patients. It was almost a relief to switch back to our real roles. But we did agree to do it again one day. It was an interesting experience.

TN

quote:

Then he told me eye contact doesn't measure how friendly you are (like my "friend" was implying) it measures how safe you feel.

I haven't even looked at my T (besides maybe her feet and hands)for the last three sessions. This is very unusual for me since even though I can't seem to hold constant eye contact with her for a whole session I do meet her gaze as often as I can. It is an effort but worth it I think. But a few weeks ago I went back to work and had to go from two sessions a week down to one. This has been an incredibly painful transition and I have found it impossible to look at her. I have tried but it feels too dangerous right now - like I will fall apart from the overwhelming grief that will pour over me if I accept the fact that now I have to make do with less. I didn't notice it the first session that I didn't look at her until later when I realized I couldn't really picture her facial expressions like I usually can. The next session I tried really hard and was only able to make eye contact for like a millisecond. This last session I didn't even try. I just tried to explain why I feel so alone and unhappy about the change in schedule. It was a good session though, she let me curl up into a little ball on the couch and let me put my head on a pillow on her lap. This was definitely a first but was so exactly what I needed. I haven't felt this hopeful and at peace for a very long time. The best thing was that it was her suggestion - I didn't have to ask even though I have been thinking about asking if I could do this for weeks! It was like getting that perfect gift from a friend who knows you really well. It was really quite amazing.

Hi Everyone! Thanks for all the responses!!! Sorry i've kinda dropped off the face of the earth the last few days... I had a mini vacation with the hubby for spring break. I just got back today and have been busy catching up with what's been happening on here! i don't have time/energy to respond to this thread, or all the others, but I will try to over the next few days! i just wanted you all to know that I'm not ignoring your responses to me or being unsupportive of everyone else's stuff!!!!

Anywho, I need to go prep for my session in the morning... need to figure out wtf I wanna talk about with my t!! Plus I have to unpack and sleep... I'm exhausted!!!!!

Later,
-CT

Hi CT...so glad you were able to get away for a few days and relax. I hope you had a good time. Post when you can and feel like up have the energy. Good luck with your session tomorrow. I have one too.

TN

Great topic, CT!

I could relate to so many things that have already been said. In general I can meet my T's eyes pretty well. I do have to look away (or close my eyes) sometimes to gather my thoughts (as if I'm looking for them up near the ceiling, or behind my eyelids ). Not out of fear, but just because looking into someone's eyes usually feels so intimate that it can be distracting and make me lose my train of thought.

I look away more when I'm feeling vulnerable, such as when I'm talking about something I'm embarrassed or ashamed of. My hands get a very thorough examination as they are wringing in my lap. And when I cry, I cup my hand over my eyes so I can "hide". In those cases I don't want her to see my shame or guilt and I don't want to see any negative expressions on her face. But I also feel vulnerable when she says something tender or empathetic, something that indicates she is "seeing" me in a kind way. When I look away from her then, I feel as though I'm pushing her away. It's harder to describe that feeling...I want this attention, it feels good, but if she looks into my eyes and sees how much I want it, she'll change her mind and take it away again? So maybe it's a way of pretending I don't really want it? And I'm always careful when I leave not to make eye contact because then she might think I want a hug.

And of course sexual attraction makes me feel extremely vulnerable, but I don't need to worry about that with my current T. It was a factor with my previous T, though.

One of my most favorite passages in A General Theory of Love has to do with eye contact within the context of limbic resonance and connection and attunement with another human being. A baby will search his/her mother's face for not just eye contact, but for responsiveness as a whole in time to his/her own. The baby wants and needs what GTOL calls a "mutually responsive interaction". It is very powerful, a very necessary part of development...so no wonder we are feeling this power in the therapy room, and no wonder it is frightening sometimes when we feel vulnerable.

Here is that passage I like so much (one of them anyway):

"Within the effulgence of their new brain, mammals developed a capacity we call limbic resonance - a symphony of mutual exchange and internal adaptation whereby two mammals become attuned to each other's inner states. It is limbic resonance that makes looking into the face of another emotionally responsive creature a multi-layered experience. Instead of seeing a pair of eyes as two bespeckled buttons, when we look into the ocular portals to a limbic brain our vision goes deep: the sensations multiply, just as two mirrors placed in opposition create a shimmering ricochet of reflections whose depths recede into infinity. Eye contact, although it occurs over a gap of yards, is not a metaphor. When we meet the gaze of another, two nervous systems achieve a palpable and intimate apposition."

Then they go on to say that "So familiar and expected is the neural attunement of limbic resonance that people find its absence disturbing." When my husband and I started therapy, one of my "complaints" was that I don't feel emotionally intimate with him. Another was that he avoids my eyes most of the time. It really does feel "disturbing" to me when I look to him for that "limbic connection" and he won't look back at me (I don't mean constantly - just at certain times when people generally would look at each other). This helped me to see the connection and let him know I would like more eye contact so I can feel closer to him. It hasn't changed a lot yet but we are still working on it.

SG

p.s. CT and TN - I hope your sessions went well today

It feels good to know that I am not alone in this. Eye contact is the thing I have the hardest time with and that includes everyone not just my P but even with my husband. I never made eye contact with my parents growing up. If we had an important conversation my head was always under my blanket and I still do that to my husband and it drives him crazy!

My P has brought up the eye contact thing and I have tried to work on it but I get scared. There are times that at the end of the session I feel good because there was a little bit of eye contact and I felt really understood. And there are times that he is telling me something right after I told him something I thought was horrible and he will tell me "you have to look at me because right now you need to see my response not just hear it." And he is right cause those times make me feel so good and safe and make me feel like he really understands and cares and that he really is there for me and I can trust him. But there are other times that I am too scared to look at him cause I feel that if he looks in my eyes he will know what is deep down inside of me and he will hate me for it. He will know how terrible I really am and how disgusting I really am and he will leave me and worst of all he will hate me. Those are the times deep down I wish I could look at him cause I really do want him to know me on every level possible and know the real me and everything about me so that I can have someone that will know all of that and still love and care about me. But I guess right now I dont believe that is truly possible.

I stare out the window most of the time when I am seeing him and he says it makes it feel like I am telling him "F U I dont care what you have to say." But that is not it at all. Im just scared. Which I am hoping that is one of the things that will be fixed cause my and my T are starting to work on all the things that I am so scared of that is not normal and how it relates back to my history of abuse which she said the first place to start is talking about the abuse.

I see my P tomorrow afternoon which I am looking forward to and I am going to try to talk to him with eye contact but I have to tell him I lied to him last time and also talk to him about a really embarrassing issue that I saw my doctor for and he diagnosed me and told me what was wrong but said because it was a form of panic attacks that I needed to discuss it with my P and figure out what to do about it. And since it has to do with sex and my P knows I am in love with him and want to have sex with him its just going to be more embarrassing so I dont know if the eye contact thing will work this time.

Good luck Pippi with your session tomorrow!

I’ve read quite a lot of your posts on forum and you sound like you really know where you’re at and I think you are so brave being so honest both with yourself and with your P. Even thinking about some of the things you are willing to talk to him about make me squirm, so you’ve really got my admiration.

I’d like to hear how you manage with the eye contact, if you feel up to posting about it after your session?

Lamplighter

yeah, I will let yall know how it goes with the session and the whole eye contact...Im nervous and excited right now. I want to see him so badly but just nervous about what I must do, but I believe some how it will work out.

Okay guys, I finally have some time and energy to respond!! Warning, this is going to be LONG!

Debbye-
Thanks for your reply!

quote:

Then he told me eye contact doesn't measure how friendly you are (like my "friend" was implying) it measures how safe you feel.

I really like that explanation, and I believe it is so true! Thanks for sharing that with me (us).

quote:

When I was little and got upset about something, my parents would send me to my room for hours "don't come down till you stop crying"!!

Ugh, I'm so sorry this was the response you got!! I absolutely hate it when I hear ppl say this kind of thing, it's so hurtful and shameful. No wonder you feel like your t is going to send you away if you cry.

quote:

I kept looking away because I felt shy that he knew so much from my heart and really wanted to bolt from the room, and he pleaded with me to please stay with him (in eye contact). You would think it would be scary to be held in eye contact so much talking about something painful but it made me feel incredibly understood.

Yes, I do think this sounds scary! But I know it can be a really rewarding experience, like you said, and I guess that's why I'm thinking about this. I know my t understands me and gets me, but I don't think I'm going to be able to change the way I feel about myself if I can't even bear/bare (that's for you monte and SD ) to think that the way she sees me might be accurate or authentic. I can dismiss things she SAYS very easily, but it's so much harder to blow her off if I look at her and see her reactions...

Monte- Thanks for your response also. This really explains part of my problem:

quote:

I might see disinterest or rejection. But then I might see love and compassion too. Either might make me cower! Too much. Sometimes I have looked up and seen genuine fondness in his eyes and it's almost painful. Weird stuff.

I'm so afraid to see what's really on her face. I'm more afraid that she'll actually look at me like she cares... gulp! What I really start to believe that she hasn't been lying to me all along? What if I really start to trust her and later find out that she HAS been lying all along?? Oh, so many what ifs... avoiding her gaze feels so much safer, but it feels like I'm missing a lot too.

quote:

Is it maybe like she can only offer so much before she has to hold back, simply because there is a backlog of her offerings for you to accept...and the simple act of courageously and willingly offering eye contact would be like acceptance of what she's offered so far.

There definitely is a backlog, but i think she will keep offering no matter what. It's more like I can only change so much of myself if I keep believing the way I believe about myself. See, a large part of why I can't look at her is because our opinions of me differ so much. I think I'm worthless and shitty and a failure and inadequate, but she doesn't see those things. And I'm afraid that a) if I look at her, I'll start to believe differently about myself and that's just flat out scary or b) her eyes won't match her words or c) I won't ever work up the courage to look at her and my feelings about myself won't change. I guess I feel like I have to know that someone really thinks I'm worth loving and being around before I'll give myself a shot, but I'm scared to see what she looks like. I'm scared to be THAT connected to her.

Hi Heather 63! I appreciate your input here and it's nice to meet you.

quote:

We have talked about it and i know its because i don't want to see any reaction on her face and the only reaction i expect to see is disgust etc.

I'm so with you here... do you find it hard to reconcile your expectations of disgust, even verbally, and her actual reactions? It is for me! I expect her to think I'm awful/stupid/etc, but she doesn't... and she doesn't even treat me any differently and I don't know what to do with it most of the time. i just don't know how to go about looking that kind of acceptance-that I don't feel i deserve- in the eye!!

Dragonfly- I know what you mean about the lab-rat feeling, except to be it feels more like being in a fishbowl and she's tapping on the glass!!

quote:

Also I dont want her to see the shame on my face, so i literally bow my head ,so its nearly touching my knees!....I also dont want to see the look of disgust on her face as i am recounting my stories and feelings....that would just be about the worst thing ever.

Yes, I often do the bow of shame! And I don't want to see her reaction, but at the same time I do. One of the best feelings I've ever had in therapy is when my t shows disgust- or upset- and someone who hurt me!! It's not a judgemental thing, but it's more of a "ugh, why would so-and-so do that?" It's so validating to me because she doesn't blame me for being abused. She actually helps me to place some of the blame elsewhere and it's nice to see that I am allowed to be angry/upset/whatver. It's very freeing and scary at the same time because it might mean she really DOES care. EEK!

BB- What a difficult situation! If it's any consolation, I can't ever see my t outside of the office, so she often feels like an illusion to me! It's like "does what goes on in therapy really exist if only she and I were there to witness it?" Idk if that makes sense, but I've actually thought about her as a mirage before! I'm glad that you can at least see your t... i think at times I'd even like to watch my t without her knowing exactly what I was seeing... I would look at her face much more if she didn't know I was looking right at her face! But I definitely like being able to be there in person... most of the time, and I can't imagine not being able to be in the same room with her!

Starfish- My t has only asked me to look at her once, which was excruciatingly painful! Maybe that's why she hasn't asked me again... idk. I almost want her to help make me look at her, but I'm scared to ask her to do that because I know she really will hold me to it and I'm not sure I'm ready!!!!

quote:

Do you ask similar questions? What are your TS/Ps responses?

I used to ask my t those kinds of questions all the time. I even still say things like "I don't want to tell you this because I'm afraid you're going to hate me/think I'm awful, etc..." And I used to ask her all the time if we were still "okay" or if she had decided she didn't like me anymore yet... well, eventually she kinda got tired of reassuring me all the time and she got into some really nitty gritty stuff with me... it wasn't mean or hurtful, but she was just a lot sterner than normal... she basically said that she understands that I would like her to verbally reassure me all the time, but that isn't how it works because then I become dependent on her words to know that I'm "okay." She said that her yes is a yes and her no is a no and that she doesn't give and take away her care for me like my mother did. She said if she is frustrated or needs to tell me something, she will tell me. She basically gave me an example of a mother and child- if the child grows up only hearing that she is beautiful, lovely and smart, then she will automatically think that something is wrong if she is NOT hearing those things. But if a child grows up hearing that she is all of those wonderful things, AND having conversations about why somebody doesn't want to be her friend or about things she needs to work on, then she can know- and always be reassured- that she is beautiful, lovely and smart because she knows that her mother will tell her the truth. She knows her mother won't just revoke her love without telling her. I guess that's why I've stopped asking my t so many questions, because I believe that she'll tell me if something is up that I need to know about. I don't need her to tell me all the time that she still does care about me because I don't think it changes for her like it did with my mother. She can't just all the sudden "uncare" because she is a healthy, invested individual unlike my family. Don't get me wrong- I still have to ask for reassurance at times, but not NEARLY as often as I used to!

TN- I hope you had a good session this week. I've always been envious of your eye contact abilities!! I'm so glad you have that connection and I hope I can improve that area of my relationship with my t.

quote:

I asked him for a blanket and he asked me what I needed it for and I told him to put over my head so he can't see me. He told me that he could still see me even with the blanket and that I could not hide from him.

Oooohhh, I've gotten the "you can't hide" line before too!!! It's so oddly comforting and freaky at the same time! My t said she has a mental image of me and can always see me... FREAKY!!!!

MH- I hate talking to my t on the phone!!! I think I would come away disturbed after a phone session too! And I've never ever changed seats before, although I think about it. There is a spot where I could be physically closer to my t but not have to look at her head on... I wonder what she'd say if I sat there... hmmmmm??

Echo- I'm glad I'm not alone it this! I stare at anything EXCEPT my t-- never any food items though-- but she has never tried to intercept my gaze... I wonder if my t even thinks eye contact is important? She's always looking at me but she never really says anything to me about my not looking at her...? BTW, lol at wondering if your t is medicated. I've wondered that too!

Hi River- Long time no chat!! I'm so sorry to hear that you are having to make do with less. Transitions are often so difficult. Your t does sound wonderful though, and I'm glad she's there for you. I hope you keep posting if you can, and I hope things get easier for you. ((River))

SG- Thanks so much for the excerpt from the book! I actually learned about this concept in one of my classes the other day, but I'm going to have to do some more reading on it. It make so much sense!

quote:

I also feel vulnerable when she says something tender or empathetic, something that indicates she is "seeing" me in a kind way. When I look away from her then, I feel as though I'm pushing her away.

Btw, I'm right there with you on this one. This is what I mean when I say I dismiss her, I look away and make myself not believe that she cares. Like you, I want it and don't want it all at the same time!!! So confusing and so hard!!! UGH!

Pippi- A lot of what you describe is how I feel, especially this:

quote:

he will tell me "you have to look at me because right now you need to see my response not just hear it." And he is right cause those times make me feel so good and safe and make me feel like he really understands and cares and that he really is there for me and I can trust him.

This is what I want but what I'm so afraid of!!! I want to feel that safe but I'm so afraid to trust that she's really there for me... i think she is but I almost don't want to look and face what's there. It seems like whatever I might see in her face will be difficult to digest, no matter good or bad. Good luck in your session btw.

My session this week was pretty uneventful. I didn't broach the eye contact issue with her yet, but I'm trying to write about it for next week. I just feel like there's so much to say though... thanks again everybody.

-CT

I went to my session and it went great! I am more in love with my P than I was to begin with. I made eye contact a lot during the session and I talked a lot more than usual. I did not get to the major subject that I needed to talk to him about because there was so much other stuff we talked about. I did let him know that I lied to him about not remembering the patient that he hugged and why I lied to him and he was very understanding about it. He said I did a great job talking about it and that he really understood why I felt that way and why it reminding me of how I was treated as a child by my fathers. He did tell me that he doesnt care what my parents excuses were for spending more time with the other kids and acting like the other kids were more important because I was getting screwed and there was no reason for it. He said that the relationship with him is different than with my parents and that sometimes he has to do what is best for me whether I think that is what it is or not but that he honestly does spend more time on me than he does with other patients because I call him more than anyone else does (although I have been doing a lot better). But if he was truly my parent he would have never treated me the way my parents did because it was unacceptable. It made me feel good that he truly did understand what I was getting at.

But making all that eye contact made me realize something... He has the most beautiful baby blue eyes that I have ever seen. It made him seem way more sexy. I always knew he had blue eyes and thought he was cute but I never spent that much time looking into his eyes and it was awesome. They were so loving and caring and beautiful. And it also did not help that he was wearing a black shirt that was kind of tight on him and he looks so awesome in black. I have always thought that black was the best color on him and in that shirt in made him look so damn good! I was so close to telling him that too but didnt know the best way to bring up what I was really thinking.

SO that is how went even though the eye contact was great I am not sure I got out of it what I was really suppose to get out of it. But it was still awesome and I had the most amazing dream about him last night which just made in love with him even more. In the dream I was in bed with him and we were just talking, nothing sexual. He still had his boxers and undershirt on and I had my pajamas on so we really werent doing anything although even in the dream I was still thinking about it. He reached over and grabbed my hand while we were talking and just held my hand the whole time. It was so awesome but then it got even better. We were holding hands (both hands) and then he told me to roll over to him and he put his arms around me and just held me and told me that he could hold me and hug me as long as nothing else happened. I was still thinking just maybe something would happen but even in my dream he had to stick to some boundaries. He just held me so tight and kept talking to me while he did and I did kiss him on the neck since my face was cuddled into his neck, and he didnt even say anything about me doing that. He just kept hugging me. Right after I did it he loosened his hug to look at me and say something and I started freaking out thinking I had screwed everything up and he was going to tell me we couldnt do that because of the kiss but he didnt. He just told me what he had to say which had nothing to do with the kiss and then he pulled me back close to him and continued to hug me.

The dream made me feel so good and so close to him and there actually was no sex and by the end of the dream I was thinking that this was better than sex could ever be.

Hi Pippi!

Thanks for the update on your therapy. I'm so glad to hear of the restored connection with your P and that it continues to go so well between the two of you. And thanks for sharing that dream. Probably my deepest longing is for that kind of closeness and intimacy. It actually hurts to think about it but I know it's definitely one of the things I need to look at. It's probably a good thing I never have dreams like that because if I did I would never want to wake up.

SG

I did not want to wake up! And Im still praying that when I go back to bed that I can have the same dream over and over again, but Im sure I wont be that lucky I am also trying to decide if that is a dream I should tell him about or if I should tell him how I felt during the last session and all the thoughts I was having about how good looking he was and what I wanted to do right then... Right now I can not stop thinking about him and want to call him or text him to have some extra kind of connection to him but I dont want to make him mad right now and screw up how great things are going right now.

Wow, pippi that's a wonderful and surely significant dream. I think you should tell him the dream. It sounds like some really important connection you've made.
I had kind of a similar dream last night. I had a dream about a man that I loved and he loved me to, and I felt absolute love and happines in my dream. The man was not my T, but that could mean something too. But the feeling was absolutey amazing. I never ever felt anything like this before.

Pippi- Congrats on a great session! I'm so glad that you were able to feel so understood and attuned to. And what a dream! I'm glad that you and Amazon are feeling so loved!

I did want to talk about eye contact a little more... I was doing some writing in my journal, and I kinda got to one of those points where stuff was just coming out that I didn't really KNOW i was going to say... it just kinda happened. Well, one of the things that came out surprised me. I want to share it here, but I'm not sure if anyone will be able to relate... I'm a little nervous and embarrassed, but I'll go for it anyway...

As a teenager, I was in a relationship with an authority figure (I won't be specific, but think in terms of teacher, church volunteer, counselor, etc.). This person was very influencial over me and, while she helped me get out of a REALLY dysfunctional home life, our relationship eventually turned very inappropriate. Well, it dawned on me when I was writing that eye contact was a huge aspect of that relationship. We had to hide our relationship, as this person was married, so there was a lot of communicating through nonverbal cues. Also, during sex and intimate moments, eye contact was very huge and important... it was how this person was able to gague my acceptance of her, and it was.. altogether overwhelming for me because this was my first romantic/intimate encounter of any kind. I don't really consider that I was abused (you all may have different opinions here), because I was almost an adult and a more-than-willing-participant, but as I work through things with my t, I'm finding more and more anger in me regarding this past relationship.

Also, since this attraction to older women thing is kinda my m.o., i've experienced similar feelings toward my t that i had in this previous relationship. And what I'm just discovering is that I'm terrified to make eye contact with my t because I don't want similar things to happen with my t that happened in that last relationship. I don't want my t to think I'm flirting or hitting on her, and I don't want to get turned on looking at my t... and I certainly don't want to start thinking about my t sexually again (I haven't had those thoughts in a while). And I know this sounds crazy, but what if my t starts to be affected by the way that i look at her like that other person did? What if I screw this up with my t like I did before?

I know it's not like I have super powers that I can choose to use for good or for evil, but what id there's something about me that might mess this whole relationship with my t up? Maybe I'm better off not even going near thise whole eye contact thing for a while?!?! Any thoughts? I'd appreciate any words/comments... I'm planning (at this moment) on letting my t read what I wrote about all this, but I keep going back and forth...

Thanks for reading.

-CT

Hi CT
Thanks for being so open and posting about this. I do think that eye contact can be important, mainly because it allows for a much stronger limbic resonance. I spent a lot of my sessions for a very long time with my eyes closed and my faced covered up crying. I remember one session, actually saying to my T that it was suprising sometimes when I opened my eyes to find the room filled with light because it felt so dark (I usually see my T at 8:30 in the morning and he has several large windows in his office.) He encouraged me to keep my eyes open as much as I could so that I could realize I was here and now. And a very good friend of mine really encouraged me to start keeping my eyes open and making eye contact because she thought it would really help me to see how my T reacted. And she was right! I can sometimes deeply regret how much I kept my eyes closed. We were in a couples session once and my husband had a breakthrough and in responding to it, my T said that he was tearing up listening to my husband and as an aside, said "AG can tell you I often get very emotional." to which I starting thinking "what?!! you do?!? have you been tearing up with me?!??" and it hit me how very much I might have been missing by not looking. All that said, we're not prone to really long eye contact. The one place it's very important for me is when I'm leaving. We always shake hands at the end of the session when I'm on my way out the door. I'm always sure to make eye contact during the handshake because the warmth and acceptance I see then gets me through until the next appt.

OK, now that that's out of the way I want to answer CT's question. I can understand CT your connecting eye contact to a sexual relationship both because of your experience and because prolonged eye contact is actually a characteristic of a sexual relationship. Deep, prolonged eye contact only tends to happen in physically intimate relationships because it's only in those relationships that we trust enough to allow ourselves to be that vulnerable with another person. Human beings have open phyisiological systems, when we are in contact with another human being, our two open systems resonate with each other (this is why another person can help us to deal with intense emotion) and this limbic resonance is at its peak through eye contact.

quote:

And I know this sounds crazy, but what if my t starts to be affected by the way that i look at her like that other person did? What if I screw this up with my t like I did before?

(((((CT)))))) You were NOT responsible for somehow dragging this other person off into an illicit relationship; actually considering the position this person sounds like they were in they held a lot more responsibility than you did. And I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I do think the relationship was abusive in some ways; I think that in helping you she slipped over the edge and ended up using you to fulfill some of her own needs; a position you were primed for because of your history. And therein lies the problem. You're blaming yourself because you think you asked for a sexual relationship when what you were really asking for was love and acceptance and to have some very basic unmet needs met.

My T and I have spent a lot of time working with the fact that I felt responsible for my father abusing me. And this at the age of four (which admittedly, makes it a little clearer). I wanted to be hugged and cuddled and loved which are perfectly reasonable expectations but in my mind, the sex would have never happened if I hadn't been weak and wanted to be held. So who sounds crazy now? My T keeps explaining to me that I didn't want sexual abuse, I wanted to safety and affection. It was my father who did inappropriate things, not me. We were talking a few sessions ago about how incredibly important it was that my T held the boundaries, that he kept it all about my needs and didn't exploit me and I had this sickening realization. I told my T that my wanting a romantic sexual relationship was him felt like me wanting the abuse to happen again, that I was responsible. And he once again explained to me that no I was just trying to get healthy needs met, I wasn't asking for abuse.

So in your relationship with your T, the onus is once again on her to hold the boundaries. You need to be free to express whatever your feelings and desires are and your T is responsible to hold those boundaries. This is a really safe place for you to experience how these feelings happen for you and want they mean. As frustrating (and sometimes as humiliating) as it can feel to express desires I know will NOT be fulfilled, I've learned a lot about myself and how I do relationships from having a safe place to express them. A big one being that I really sexualize a lot of relationships that shouldn't be, because I didn't learn what it was like to have a close caring relationship where sex wasn't involved. So you do NOT need to be scared of yourself or your feelings.

And I hope I don't upset you, but if I could track down that woman who you were in the relationship with, I'd probably slap her into next week.

AG

Hi all,

Thanks for this thread, and thanks SG for the quote you wrote out. It's all helping me think through the trouble I have with this, which is a pretty charged area for me at the moment.

I recently (quickly) formed a strong bond with someone in a mentor-type role & it's been really challenging for me, filled with all the transference stuff. After lots of hard experience in other relationships I've learnt to keep my own boundaries. Not neatly, seamlessly or easily, but not violating my marriage, either.

Part of how I notice the transference stuff happening is that eye contact becomes really hard. In one exchange I was feeling self-conscious (ashamed, actually) about a work-thing we were discussing. In the middle of it he said "you don't have to look away; you're not being reprimanded." My heart pretty much fell out onto the floor. I felt like all my history was written on my face and he had recognised it without me saying a thing, and I also suddenly understood why I have such great difficulty with eye contact with my T. My stepdad used to use eye-contact very aggressively, staring as he yelled right into my face, not letting me leave or look away until he'd made me admit something - that I was wrong, awful, whatever. For me to look away feels almost like claiming a space to feel what I feel without being directly frightened, to defy and to be ashamed at the same time. To be myself.

Anyway, as soon as my friend said what he said I was able to look at him. Tears came up in my eyes and he saw that and I could see he accepted what I was feeling, was giving it time. I couldn't keep up the eye contact for very long but even when I had to look away I could stay in the range of his face. It felt like being held. It was really really special.

CT, I know that feeling about being scared of something sexual being revealed through the eye contact. Sometimes I have that feeling with my T too. I have in the past had sexual relationships with women, but not for a long time and I haven't felt sexually attracted to my T. But it is just a way I tend to automatically relate to people when I want to be close & feel comfortable in a relationship. I don't know why I'm like that, it's not a sexual abuse issue for me. Still I sometimes have the feeling that eye contact will flare that up in me, and reveal it to the other person, and it adds to the discomfort.

J

Hi all
I have been about but i guess i've been hiding. Jones, ive just read your post and remembered my dad used to do the same thing to me. He would screaming at me to look at him when he was talking to me. His face in my face going on and on, i do remember being really scared of him and maybe this could be part of my lack of eye contact now

Hev

quote:

I'm glad that you and Amazon are feeling so loved!

CT, that is lovely what you said, but the man in my dream was not my T, I don't dare to feel loved by my T. I don't know if this is his intention and I feel I have no right. Eh...

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

AG-

quote:

one place it's very important for me is when I'm leaving. We always shake hands at the end of the session when I'm on my way out the door. I'm always sure to make eye contact during the handshake because the warmth and acceptance I see then gets me through until the next appt.

At the end of sessions is when I blatantly avoid eye contact the most!!!!!! I can't handle being that close to her and not being able to hug her or something... it's WAY too intense for me so I just look at my check when I hand it to her and practically RUN out the door!!! I feel like it's the only way that I won't cross a boundary......

quote:

You were NOT responsible for somehow dragging this other person off into an illicit relationship; actually considering the position this person sounds like they were in they held a lot more responsibility than you did. And I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but I do think the relationship was abusive in some ways; I think that in helping you she slipped over the edge and ended up using you to fulfill some of her own needs; a position you were primed for because of your history.

Was I responsible for it? No. But I really pushed for it to happen once I knew she wanted it too... and yes, I agree that it was abusive in some ways, but I don't think I was sexually abused. Idk... it's hard to talk about. But yes, she did slip into allowing me to meet her needs, which like you said I was primed and ready for (I spent a large chunk of my life filling in for my father when my mother needed companionship, protection, things taken care of)... so this relationship with this woman was really a natural fit for me and I did a pretty good job at meeting her needs. It felt VERY RIGHT for a while, only because this was the first relationship where I actually felt loved.

quote:

And he once again explained to me that no I was just trying to get healthy needs met, I wasn't asking for abuse.

This is such a hard concept for me to wrap my brain around... for me, I was pleading with this person to do something inappropriate with me... even though I knew it was wrong... but I didn't think it would mess with me as much as it has... I was just trying to go after what I was feeling... for the first time ever... so in a way I was and wasn't trying to get basic needs met. Idk. It's just really confusing.

quote:

A big one being that I really sexualize a lot of relationships that shouldn't be, because I didn't learn what it was like to have a close caring relationship where sex wasn't involved.

You know, I tend to over sexualize too but I don't know why. I was not sexually abused and like I said, my first experience ever was with this woman at 17. But i have always been attracted to older women, starting in about 7th grade... and it grew out of a genuine fondness for them and the way they treated me. Somewhere along the lines being treated nicely and respectfully equated to me having sexual and loving feelings for these adult women... my t thinks i feel like sex is the only thing I have to offer people in terms of repaying them for being nice to me or loving me, but I don't know where I got that idea..?!?!?

quote:

And I hope I don't upset you, but if I could track down that woman who you were in the relationship with, I'd probably slap her into next week.

No, I understand the feelings. My t kinda has expressed that kind of emotion too. But you know what? As crazy at this may seem, I am still very involved in this person's life, and her in mine. One of my goals in therapy is to work through all of these emotions and all of the damage without losing the relationship (she's working too and realizes the errors/pain/damage... is very ashamed and aware of her part!!) We haven't been sexually involved for years, but working through all of the ickiness of everything is just plain difficult. But her and her family are the only family I really have, you know? We stopped the affair and started working on this stuff because both of us decided we would rather have some sort of relationship rather than let it get to the point where it's not repairable... (we came PRETTY close anyway!!) It's awkward at times, because her husband knows, and so does mine (I wasn't with mine at the time)... but it's worth it for me. We've all had to work to forgive and be gracious and to trust, but it's coming along with time and effort. I guess sometimes I wanna slap her too though!!

Jones-

quote:

Part of how I notice the transference stuff happening is that eye contact becomes really hard. In one exchange I was feeling self-conscious (ashamed, actually) about a work-thing we were discussing. In the middle of it he said "you don't have to look away; you're not being reprimanded." My heart pretty much fell out onto the floor. I felt like all my history was written on my face and he had recognised it without me saying a thing, and I also suddenly understood why I have such great difficulty with eye contact with my T. My stepdad used to use eye-contact very aggressively, staring as he yelled right into my face, not letting me leave or look away until he'd made me admit something - that I was wrong, awful, whatever.

Wow, that sounds like a very important, gentle experience that led to a very crucial realization for you. Do you think you'll tell your t about it? About the correlation with eye contact with her?

And- for Hev too- I hate that your father figures treated you guys that way... they probably managed to engrain some very negative beliefs into your heads. I imagine it would make me want to avoid eye contact as well.

quote:

I have in the past had sexual relationships with women, but not for a long time and I haven't felt sexually attracted to my T. But it is just a way I tend to automatically relate to people when I want to be close & feel comfortable in a relationship. I don't know why I'm like that, it's not a sexual abuse issue for me.

You too huh Jones?? I wonder WHY it works that way??? I don't get it... need to talk to my t about this sometime... any ideas out there?

Amazon, it's my hope for you that you will one day be able to feel loved by your t.

-CT

Just a quick comment on the whole sexualizing a relationship when you want to be close. We all start out with a wonderful relationship with our mother where all our needs are met without having to ask or in some ways even be aware of them. In the womb, we are safe, warm, protected, fed etc. all without having to do anything. And there are on boundaries, there is no "I" and "you." After birth, this should continue so that when we cry or are distressed someone comes. Again at a stage when we do not recognize our separateness from our caregiver. One of the very important developmental stages is that as our attuned attachment figure focuses on us and our needs, they teach us how to identify OUR needs, and they model good boundaries so that we can understand we are a separate person. When we don't get our needs met, we will want to return to a time when they were met. If you had a sucky childhood, the last time that happened is often in the womb or as a small infant.

Human beings possess two very strong drives: towards connection and towards individuation. Our childhood is one long fight to learn to do one without giving up the other. We often didn't get to learn either. Early in childhood the drive towards connection is so much stronger because we need connection to stay alive.

So we start to move closer to someone who cares for us and they hold out the hope of finally getting those needs met. When is the one time as adults that our boundaries are most lowered and we move closer to someone? Sexual intimacy. So you have these very powerful, very primitive unmet needs from childhood desperately searching for an outlet. The path of least resistance as an adult is your sexuality. It promises the same kind of loving merger.

CT, I have a lot more comments about your post, but I REALLY need to get to bed, so I'll be back tomorrow.

AG

OKAY, just ONE more comment.

Here's what was wrong and the reason that even if you pushed for the relationship you did nothing wrong and she should still have said no. We are supposed to have a relationship in which our worth is made clear, in which we are cherished and made to feel special NOT because of anything we do but simply because we ARE who we are. Children owe NOTHING to their parents when they are born; they did not choose it. Parents owe everything to their children, they brought them into the world. So the relationship, especially when we're little should be all about our needs with no payment asked. Ideally, we repay our parents by taking care of the next generation.

So you found this wonderful family that took you in and loved you in a way you hadn't experienced before but by entering into a sexual relationship effectively you "bargained" to get your needs met. You followed the model of your childhood which was "unless I take care of your needs first, then mine won't be met." She was old enough to know that no price should have been demanded of you even if it was "freely" or "pushily" offered. I mean, do you have any idea how many times I've told my T I want to have sex with him, and yet everyone's kept their clothes on? (OK, admittedly, this would be more impressive if I was hot 20 year old instead of an overweight 49 year old, but you get my point. I was ripe for exploitation in the hands of a less ethical person.) And therein lies the injury.

All that said, I am incredibly impressed that you both have come through this and are working to restore/retain the relationship. I am a firm believer in forgiveness and redemption, that no one is beyond it. And I stand in too much need of grace myself to ever begrudge someone else receiving it. For after all, "the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair."

OK I'm really going to bed now!! (I know, I know, you'll believe that when you hear me snoring! Help, I'm talking and I can't shut up!)

AG

Hi AG, i just wanted you to know that i read all you've written, but I can't respond right now. It's a lot to think about/process through, and I am buried with work and school for the next few days. Thanks so much for writing all that out though. It really rings true... in some very painful, distinct ways.

I know I'm safe with my t now, and have told her in EXPLICIT detail about my sexual fantasies for her... she's never crossed a boundary with me yet, but I guess I'm kinda still wondering if she will in some strange way. I'm not used to people saying one thing and ACTAULLY doing it...

Anyway, thanks.

-CT

Hi, I'm new here. This conversation is great! I have the same problem. I can never look at my therapist when I am talking about some of the darkest moments in my life. I feel like I'm not giving her enough respect or something. It just hurts me so muich when I talk about it that I can't stand to look into another persons face and have the pain looking back at me.

Smiley

Hi smiley and welcome to the forum Be good to get to know you.

Would agree to being bad at eye contact too. Fine with the day to day conversational stuff but go anywhere difficult and I can't do it. Several things happen: I'm so embarrassed or ashamed of what I'm saying that I can't bear to look at her; that if I feel sad, then looking at her face that is compassionate and kind might make me cry; or I am trying to distance myself from everything and not really there at all.

Sometimes I make a real effort to, but it ususally quickly becomes uncomfortable.

starfish

Hi Smiley! Love the name!! <-- that's how I picture you!! lol! Sorry to hear that you are in the same poor-eye contact boat... but I'm glad you are finding this thread helpful!

I gave my t my letter about eye contact today... about how I'm scared of it and I avoid it and how I'm afraid she's going to be affected by it, etc, etc,etc.

She said that she doesn't want me to try and make myself look at her... that it's not something she wants me to force myself to do. She said she will always be looking at me- whether or not I'm looking back, because I am what she is fully focused on, and she was trained to be attuned to me verbally and nonverbally. She mentioned that lack of eye contact (universally) means that a person is ashamed or embarrassed on some level, so she already knew that I was feeling those things, even if sometimes she doesn't know why necessarily. She then went on to say, about the whole flirting thing, that that comes down to me trusting her not to exploit any connection we have via eye contact- trusting that she won't put her needs before mine. She said that I will make eye contact with her when I'm ready, whatever that means for me psychologically, and that she looks forward to that day. She also said that she will take it as a sign that I've reached a new place of healing.

We then talked about that previous relationship I had that I've been talking about on here (because she said my writing "got heavier" when I started talking about that). I'll spare you all the gory details, but she asked how I see the breakdown of responsibility in that relationship (i.e. who's more responsible for what happened). I told her I thought it was 60/40 (I'm the 40) and I then asked her what she thought... she said 90/10 (I'm the 10). We "negotiated" and she got me down to a 65/35... Then she brought up the dream I'd had not long ago that really irked me, and she talked about how the breakdown of power in that dream- that I believed represented this past relationship- was more along the lines of 90/10 like she thought... and then I asked her why she HAD to point out these inconsistencies (lol!). She said because she thinks I have a very accurate unconscious.

Then, it was getting close to the end and she gave me some analogy that was "supposed" to lead me in the direction of seeing her point, but i saw it coming and turned it around on her to illustrate MY point... I did it so seamlessley, she just started laughing! It was freaking awesome. Then she told me (in her stern mom voice) to get my BUTT to class (one that I've only attended about 50% this semester)!! You know, she's damn near the only person in my life who REALLY wants me to be in school, but i love that she cares so much. It actually makes me WANT to go to class.

Thanks for reading.

-CT