I still don't have power and am replying by phone. ((((monte)))) for what it's worth I think you have made some very valid points and hate to think that you are invalidating your own perceptions. I also think if shrinklady was upset by your comments, she herself should have been the one to address it with you. Fwiw I also see other bad behavior on this thread that no one else has bothered to address.
I shouldn't be sticking my nose into this and for that I apologize. I just can't stand to see Monte beat herself up over this. Everyone seemed to be freaked out by the new buttons. If we can't ask questions and question motivations then I am not sure what country we r living in. None of us, not one of us, expresses ourselves perfectly all the time. We r human. Every last one of us and fallable.
Best wishes,
Liese
Hello Everyone, first I'd like to apologize for the sudden entrance of the Facebook and Twitter buttons. I hadn't thought through how they might create a problem.
I have social media accounts only for my business. I rarely use them so I missed seeing the implications of how their function might impact the forum. Reading some of the posts I can certainly see that now.
I'm very glad you spoke up about them though. And I'd like to encourage you to do the same for any other features that may become available. Keeping this forum feeling safe is the #1 priority. Like in therapy, we can't do much if we don't feel safe.
Monte, thanks for the apology. (I've certainly had days like that). I was sorry to hear that you lost some of your posts. I just wish I had thought to consult everyone first. I know your contributions to the forum are valued and that's a loss for everyone.
And thanks AG for fielding the questions about the social media buttons and for contacting me so quickly about everyone's concerns.
Yaku…thanks for your post. I laughed when I read about the timing on my donation button. That was a good one.
I have social media accounts only for my business. I rarely use them so I missed seeing the implications of how their function might impact the forum. Reading some of the posts I can certainly see that now.
I'm very glad you spoke up about them though. And I'd like to encourage you to do the same for any other features that may become available. Keeping this forum feeling safe is the #1 priority. Like in therapy, we can't do much if we don't feel safe.
Monte, thanks for the apology. (I've certainly had days like that). I was sorry to hear that you lost some of your posts. I just wish I had thought to consult everyone first. I know your contributions to the forum are valued and that's a loss for everyone.
And thanks AG for fielding the questions about the social media buttons and for contacting me so quickly about everyone's concerns.
Yaku…thanks for your post. I laughed when I read about the timing on my donation button. That was a good one.
Ventured to peek in here again after going into hiding from this thread for a while. 
Feeling like such a coward, but I'm really no good with conflict between other people. It's actually much easier having people be mad at ME than seeing them upset with one another. Not an invitation to be mad at me, unless you all think it would help things. 
Shrinklady - Thank you (and AG too) for addressing this issue so quickly. The sense of safety here is obviously a priority to both of you and that means a lot to the participants of the forum. I really appreciated your graceful response here.
Liese - I do agree with you that there is other behavior that goes unaddressed at times and that can make it confusing, especially as the moderation here is mostly passive, and community-initiated. I think, for that reason, the rare instances active moderation stands out a little more than it would in a forum with regular, intense, and directive facilitation. It can be very confusing to be both a participant and a moderator, because your intervention starts to "weigh" more to those involved. Had someone else suggested an apology, as has happened in other instances, it might have felt very different to some people. The "authority" itself punctuates the interaction and there is no way of helping past experiences or attitudes about that from coming into play. I do not envy AG the role she has taken on and I think she is very brave to do it.
I also empathize with Monte as I have been in the position of desperately trying to have my feelings understood, but my attempts only seeming to make things worse, to deteriorate understanding of my thoughts, feelings and experiences, rather than build it. For what it's worth, I don't think there was premeditated intention on anyone's part to hurt someone else, but there is still some hurt here, and whether or not we see any error in our actions, we can always be sorry that someone we care about felt injured by them. Knowing this community, I'm sure no one wants another member feeling hurt, isolated, or otherwise unsafe to express themselves about how an interaction has affected them. I have been in that position and despite intellectually knowing that no one intended me harm, it was very painful and hard to choose to trust enough to share my hurt. Hurting each other, conflicts such as these, are going to happen from time to time, but it's still something I'm sure we all do have a goal to work through with the same support and encouragement for one another that is so obviously present in this forum. So, that said, I am still proud of Monte for trying so hard to have her feelings heard and understood.
I think I may have just managed to make the most meaningless, self-cancelling comment in history of this forum! Do I get some sort of award for that? I won't have to make a speech, will I? I talk enough as it is here!
Feeling like such a coward, but I'm really no good with conflict between other people. It's actually much easier having people be mad at ME than seeing them upset with one another. Not an invitation to be mad at me, unless you all think it would help things. Shrinklady - Thank you (and AG too) for addressing this issue so quickly. The sense of safety here is obviously a priority to both of you and that means a lot to the participants of the forum. I really appreciated your graceful response here.
Liese - I do agree with you that there is other behavior that goes unaddressed at times and that can make it confusing, especially as the moderation here is mostly passive, and community-initiated. I think, for that reason, the rare instances active moderation stands out a little more than it would in a forum with regular, intense, and directive facilitation. It can be very confusing to be both a participant and a moderator, because your intervention starts to "weigh" more to those involved. Had someone else suggested an apology, as has happened in other instances, it might have felt very different to some people. The "authority" itself punctuates the interaction and there is no way of helping past experiences or attitudes about that from coming into play. I do not envy AG the role she has taken on and I think she is very brave to do it.
I also empathize with Monte as I have been in the position of desperately trying to have my feelings understood, but my attempts only seeming to make things worse, to deteriorate understanding of my thoughts, feelings and experiences, rather than build it. For what it's worth, I don't think there was premeditated intention on anyone's part to hurt someone else, but there is still some hurt here, and whether or not we see any error in our actions, we can always be sorry that someone we care about felt injured by them. Knowing this community, I'm sure no one wants another member feeling hurt, isolated, or otherwise unsafe to express themselves about how an interaction has affected them. I have been in that position and despite intellectually knowing that no one intended me harm, it was very painful and hard to choose to trust enough to share my hurt. Hurting each other, conflicts such as these, are going to happen from time to time, but it's still something I'm sure we all do have a goal to work through with the same support and encouragement for one another that is so obviously present in this forum. So, that said, I am still proud of Monte for trying so hard to have her feelings heard and understood.
I think I may have just managed to make the most meaningless, self-cancelling comment in history of this forum! Do I get some sort of award for that? I won't have to make a speech, will I? I talk enough as it is here!
Sorry to have triggered any "is it me" feelings in you or anyone else. This was a general comment addressing how the usual habit of internal-moderation (i.e. the passive moderation I referenced, done by those without a moderator title) makes external-moderation (i.e. done by someone given a position/label of authority) stand out more than it would in another forum that was strictly regulated. So, being addressed by that authority might feel heavier, especially to the one involved.
My only current frustration is once again being misunderstood...and then I start to feel as if there is no way I can word things that will not elicit unintended reading between the lines (the accusation of passive aggressive complaint). So, I guess this is a direct complaint about that accusation, which is inaccurate in this case, and I don't think warranted by my past honest expression of my thoughts (and consistent clarification whenever it seemed like there was confusion, as in now). At the same time, I do understand how my extremely indirect communication style could lead to confusion, and for that, I do apologize. I don't mind deleting my comment, as it seems only to be escalating conflict, whereas I was attempting only to explain why I thought things might feel a certain way.
Sorry if there are any hurt feelings. It wasn't my intention. There is a lot of frustration, confusion and a bit of exasperation on my end, but I doubt that was intended either.
My only current frustration is once again being misunderstood...and then I start to feel as if there is no way I can word things that will not elicit unintended reading between the lines (the accusation of passive aggressive complaint). So, I guess this is a direct complaint about that accusation, which is inaccurate in this case, and I don't think warranted by my past honest expression of my thoughts (and consistent clarification whenever it seemed like there was confusion, as in now). At the same time, I do understand how my extremely indirect communication style could lead to confusion, and for that, I do apologize. I don't mind deleting my comment, as it seems only to be escalating conflict, whereas I was attempting only to explain why I thought things might feel a certain way.
Sorry if there are any hurt feelings. It wasn't my intention. There is a lot of frustration, confusion and a bit of exasperation on my end, but I doubt that was intended either.
No problem and thanks for clarifying as well. It could have been better-worded now that I reread it. I didn't mean that things don't get addressed at all, but that this forum is (quite uniquely) self-regulating and not often involving official moderation, so it really makes any official instance stand out and feel bigger. And maybe it feels more official/authoritative, because of the title, which kind of sucks for AG (like I said, very brave!), because she might have pointed it out just from the perspective of a member anyway. So, it's not that things don't get dealt with, but it just usually wouldn't feel so official, especially as having a moderator is a relatively recent thing. Thanks for understanding me!!! I need to make a point...to never try to make sense on such little sleep. (((DF))) (((everyone)))
You know, DF, I am also for addressing issues but sometimes it's just not worth the avalanche of responses and hurt feelings that will follow.
I have my issues with this forum, too. I am 99.99% certain every single one of us has but I don't want to talk about it because I know that it is mostly me that projects stuff or feels rejected quickly.
People here have always been very caring and nice and very careful not to step on anyone's toes and I really believe that they are this way and don't just pretend to be. So no, I would rather not address it because I don't want anyone to feel bad about something that I can't handle.
Obviously, if it was an obvious problem like this one here between AG and Monte (which I think should stay between them to be honest, it will just get out of hand if everyone has a say and yes I know I'm contributing right now) then sure, go for it.
But sometimes it simply is better to not say something.
I have my issues with this forum, too. I am 99.99% certain every single one of us has but I don't want to talk about it because I know that it is mostly me that projects stuff or feels rejected quickly.
People here have always been very caring and nice and very careful not to step on anyone's toes and I really believe that they are this way and don't just pretend to be. So no, I would rather not address it because I don't want anyone to feel bad about something that I can't handle.
Obviously, if it was an obvious problem like this one here between AG and Monte (which I think should stay between them to be honest, it will just get out of hand if everyone has a say and yes I know I'm contributing right now) then sure, go for it.
But sometimes it simply is better to not say something.
Yeah I know what you're saying.
There are a lot of reasons why people say they have issues but don't address it.
a) they may not want a confrontation because they're afraid of the conflict. So they might say they have unresolved issues in a thread like this one here where it is more appropriate than in a random thread.
b) they may be afraid of hurting someone's feelings or getting their own feelings hurt.
c) they may be afraid that having their issues addressed will have consequences like feeling the need to leave.
d) they may be afraid people will have negative feelings about them afterwards because the adressees were confronted.
e) come from an upbringing where addressing issues had serious consequences or was severely looked down upon.
I'm sure there are more, that's all I could come up with right now.
I agree with you DF that passive aggresiveness is not very productive but I am not sure people mean it as a side blow.
Maybe with time, they'll feel safe enough to address it.
So, that's my last post on this thread because I feel like this is not my "battle" to fight.
[edited this and post above to correct some language mistakes]
There are a lot of reasons why people say they have issues but don't address it.
a) they may not want a confrontation because they're afraid of the conflict. So they might say they have unresolved issues in a thread like this one here where it is more appropriate than in a random thread.
b) they may be afraid of hurting someone's feelings or getting their own feelings hurt.
c) they may be afraid that having their issues addressed will have consequences like feeling the need to leave.
d) they may be afraid people will have negative feelings about them afterwards because the adressees were confronted.
e) come from an upbringing where addressing issues had serious consequences or was severely looked down upon.
I'm sure there are more, that's all I could come up with right now.
I agree with you DF that passive aggresiveness is not very productive but I am not sure people mean it as a side blow.
Maybe with time, they'll feel safe enough to address it.
So, that's my last post on this thread because I feel like this is not my "battle" to fight.
[edited this and post above to correct some language mistakes]
siigh....okay, not last post.
I think I understood you. There's still a member left who, in your opinion, made a passive aggressive comment and I'm saying the following for their sake. If I have still misunderstood you then I'm sorry. If you want to clarify anything, PM me, I'm not gonna post here again.
I merely wanted to point out that people not addressing their issues with this forum might have good reasons for hinting and not telling.
So, telling them not to hint isn't very productive either. Maybe they want to see how cold the water is with their toe first before jumping in.
If they want to address it, and they feel SAFE to do so, I think they will.
If you just wanted to say, bring it up or don't. Then I understood you now, too.
I think I understood you. There's still a member left who, in your opinion, made a passive aggressive comment and I'm saying the following for their sake. If I have still misunderstood you then I'm sorry. If you want to clarify anything, PM me, I'm not gonna post here again.
I merely wanted to point out that people not addressing their issues with this forum might have good reasons for hinting and not telling.
quote:Saying nothing and hinting at things just doesn't seem effective to me.
So, telling them not to hint isn't very productive either. Maybe they want to see how cold the water is with their toe first before jumping in.
If they want to address it, and they feel SAFE to do so, I think they will.
If you just wanted to say, bring it up or don't. Then I understood you now, too.
(((((((Draggers pcd))))))
PLEASE know there is no reason for you to feel unsafe here - if anyone has issues with anyone - they can sort it - it doesn't have to be something we can sort out or feel guilty that we can't sort it out!!!
Rest easy dear lady.
s me and the mutt xx
PLEASE know there is no reason for you to feel unsafe here - if anyone has issues with anyone - they can sort it - it doesn't have to be something we can sort out or feel guilty that we can't sort it out!!!
Rest easy dear lady.
s me and the mutt xx
I am sorry that I did not realize that so many people saw me as overstepping my role (which honestly, I find a little ironic as I have intervened more actively in the past only as a member) and even more upset that it has been so difficult evidently to express. Liese I see that you deleted your post but I did not appreciate the obligue reference to other unaddressed behaviors. I very much appreciate Monte's directness.
Monte, I am sorry that I may have been so busy defending myself that I wasn't able to hear you. It sounds like you felt that you had been unfairly singled out and held up in front of the community to be punished and marked as some kind of terrible person (please correct me if I still have not heard you correctly). It was neither what I thought of you nor my intention to do so. I honestly reacted to what I thought was a grossly unfair characterization of Shrinklady's character, and one which, if unchallenged would lead to people feeling even more unsafe if they believed that monetary gain was more important to her than safety.
I had the added knowledge that the donation button was in the works for some time and that the twitter/facebook buttons were a new default function of a forum software upgrade, so it was clear in my mind that these two occurrences were unrelated. I have long been conscious of the tremendous costs to keeping this site running. I offered to donate years ago, but was turned down by Shrinklady as she was trying to get the site to the point where it would provide income and she felt uncomfortable asking for donations under those circumstances. I have assumed that asking for donations now is being driven by a large increase in members and traffic driving up costs considerably. Personally, I felt like it was about time, as this site has proved to be an important source of support for so many and as a regular user it seemed fitting to contribute.
When I read what Monte said, which so many are defending as her just explaining her feelings, what she said about Shrinklady seemed especially unfair considering the problem had ALREADY been taken care of. So I spoke up out of both a sense of justice needing to be done and the safety of members needing to be protected. I felt what I said was said with respect and with a recognition of how exposed and scared Monte was feeling. Furthermore, I did not "demand" an apololgy threatening sanctions if one was not offered, I gave my opinion that one should be made. I realize that distinction will probably make no one feel any differently about what I did, but it's important to me that it be clear.
Monty, I am sorry, I am sure this has been a hellish experience for you but you have striven to be open and honest and take responsibility for what you've said and done while also working to be heard. All admirable actions. Forgive me for anything I have done that may have added to that.
I also deeply resent the implications that anyone's ability to express themselves has ever been limited here. Yes, I do speak up if I feel like there is blatant disrespect or personal attacks, as I feel there is no place for that here, but I have never practiced censorship or threatened anyone. And I have always attempted in my own communications to be respectful even while disagreeing.
As for me, I am hurt and angry by how I have been characterized and described, especially considering my long history on this forum. For those of you who have spoken up to defend my actions please accept my sincere gratitude for your support, it means more than I can say.
AG
Monte, I am sorry that I may have been so busy defending myself that I wasn't able to hear you. It sounds like you felt that you had been unfairly singled out and held up in front of the community to be punished and marked as some kind of terrible person (please correct me if I still have not heard you correctly). It was neither what I thought of you nor my intention to do so. I honestly reacted to what I thought was a grossly unfair characterization of Shrinklady's character, and one which, if unchallenged would lead to people feeling even more unsafe if they believed that monetary gain was more important to her than safety.
I had the added knowledge that the donation button was in the works for some time and that the twitter/facebook buttons were a new default function of a forum software upgrade, so it was clear in my mind that these two occurrences were unrelated. I have long been conscious of the tremendous costs to keeping this site running. I offered to donate years ago, but was turned down by Shrinklady as she was trying to get the site to the point where it would provide income and she felt uncomfortable asking for donations under those circumstances. I have assumed that asking for donations now is being driven by a large increase in members and traffic driving up costs considerably. Personally, I felt like it was about time, as this site has proved to be an important source of support for so many and as a regular user it seemed fitting to contribute.
When I read what Monte said, which so many are defending as her just explaining her feelings, what she said about Shrinklady seemed especially unfair considering the problem had ALREADY been taken care of. So I spoke up out of both a sense of justice needing to be done and the safety of members needing to be protected. I felt what I said was said with respect and with a recognition of how exposed and scared Monte was feeling. Furthermore, I did not "demand" an apololgy threatening sanctions if one was not offered, I gave my opinion that one should be made. I realize that distinction will probably make no one feel any differently about what I did, but it's important to me that it be clear.
Monty, I am sorry, I am sure this has been a hellish experience for you but you have striven to be open and honest and take responsibility for what you've said and done while also working to be heard. All admirable actions. Forgive me for anything I have done that may have added to that.
I also deeply resent the implications that anyone's ability to express themselves has ever been limited here. Yes, I do speak up if I feel like there is blatant disrespect or personal attacks, as I feel there is no place for that here, but I have never practiced censorship or threatened anyone. And I have always attempted in my own communications to be respectful even while disagreeing.
As for me, I am hurt and angry by how I have been characterized and described, especially considering my long history on this forum. For those of you who have spoken up to defend my actions please accept my sincere gratitude for your support, it means more than I can say.
AG
Hi everyone,
I got my power back on thankfully in the middle of the night.
AG, I didn't delete my post. It's still there.
I'm sorry if my post seemed so passive aggressive. Yes, I was raised in a very passive family and it was extremely brutal. And I do tend to be indirect. Working on it.
I chimed in very hesitantly because I didn't think this was any of my business. It's wasn't my issue. It's wasn't my fight. I don't want to throw mud. Like probably everyone else, I don't want anyone to be blamed for anything, even for making oblique references or for passive aggressive behavior. Yes, that hurts my feelings. But you know what? I'm not offended. It's all okay. I took a risk and posted what I posted. And people reacted. And that's the way life is. I can deal with that.
There actually was a reason for my indirectness. And that's because I didn't want to point fingers at anyone. The names could be John, Mary or Joe. We all are responsible for our own feelings and our motivations, including me, for posting what I posted, for taking action when I saw fit.
What I saw was: I saw Monte sliding down fast. I didn't think she was enjoying this intellectual exercise. I saw her "unthought known" getting mangled. And, I didn't like it. And that's the beginning and the end of the story. My attempt was to get everyone involved to take a look at how what they've said or done contributed. I'm the last one to say I've never done anything wrong. I'm just not that perfect. Wish I could be.
At the end of the day, we all have to go to bed at night and feel good about ourselves, hopefully. Feel good about the people we are. What we've said and what we've done. I know what my motivations were, simply to protect Monte and certainly not to sling mud at anyone in particular. Just a general message to others to take a look at this valued member of our forum, who is obviously not feeling so valued. Is that what we really want?
I'm sorry to AG and DF if you were both offended by what I said. My reasons for being indirect were just precisely that, I didn't want to get into any name calling or mud slinging. AG, I don't know what a moderator is and what a moderator does or should do. I'm just not that saavy. I don't know if you overstepped your bounds or not. I honestly don't know when a moderator should step in or not.
Again, please know and understand that my intent and my message was a very general one. I think it was amazing how fast you and Shrinklady worked to resolve the problem. And also very sensitive. But I don't think I am the bad guy here. AG, you were protecting Shrinklady and I was protecting Monte. We all need to (myself included) stop feeling hurt and stop blaming and just get on with the business of supporting each other.
Just so everyone knows, I won't be commenting any further on this topic because from my perspective, I don't see a need to. I didn't mean to offend anyone any more than anyone else did. Just trying to be helpful. And as someone very wise already said, it's time to move on.
xoxoxo
Love,
Liese
I got my power back on thankfully in the middle of the night.
AG, I didn't delete my post. It's still there.
I'm sorry if my post seemed so passive aggressive. Yes, I was raised in a very passive family and it was extremely brutal. And I do tend to be indirect. Working on it.
I chimed in very hesitantly because I didn't think this was any of my business. It's wasn't my issue. It's wasn't my fight. I don't want to throw mud. Like probably everyone else, I don't want anyone to be blamed for anything, even for making oblique references or for passive aggressive behavior. Yes, that hurts my feelings. But you know what? I'm not offended. It's all okay. I took a risk and posted what I posted. And people reacted. And that's the way life is. I can deal with that.
There actually was a reason for my indirectness. And that's because I didn't want to point fingers at anyone. The names could be John, Mary or Joe. We all are responsible for our own feelings and our motivations, including me, for posting what I posted, for taking action when I saw fit.
What I saw was: I saw Monte sliding down fast. I didn't think she was enjoying this intellectual exercise. I saw her "unthought known" getting mangled. And, I didn't like it. And that's the beginning and the end of the story. My attempt was to get everyone involved to take a look at how what they've said or done contributed. I'm the last one to say I've never done anything wrong. I'm just not that perfect. Wish I could be.
At the end of the day, we all have to go to bed at night and feel good about ourselves, hopefully. Feel good about the people we are. What we've said and what we've done. I know what my motivations were, simply to protect Monte and certainly not to sling mud at anyone in particular. Just a general message to others to take a look at this valued member of our forum, who is obviously not feeling so valued. Is that what we really want?
I'm sorry to AG and DF if you were both offended by what I said. My reasons for being indirect were just precisely that, I didn't want to get into any name calling or mud slinging. AG, I don't know what a moderator is and what a moderator does or should do. I'm just not that saavy. I don't know if you overstepped your bounds or not. I honestly don't know when a moderator should step in or not.
Again, please know and understand that my intent and my message was a very general one. I think it was amazing how fast you and Shrinklady worked to resolve the problem. And also very sensitive. But I don't think I am the bad guy here. AG, you were protecting Shrinklady and I was protecting Monte. We all need to (myself included) stop feeling hurt and stop blaming and just get on with the business of supporting each other.
Just so everyone knows, I won't be commenting any further on this topic because from my perspective, I don't see a need to. I didn't mean to offend anyone any more than anyone else did. Just trying to be helpful. And as someone very wise already said, it's time to move on.
xoxoxo
Love,
Liese
quote:Just a general message to others to take a look at this valued member of our forum, who is obviously not feeling so valued. Is that what we really want?
You are right Liese- it is important for us to let others know in various ways that they are valued. I think it may help if all of us try to think about the people who have been hurt here. Monte has clearly been hurt, but Ag is also feeling deeply hurt, criticized, and unappreciated. Shrinklady was under-appreciated. draggers is scared. Maybe it's time for us to step back and remember that, in spite of the hurt and misunderstanding that happened here- does not mean that there is not genuine care and support and even love for one another here. Hurt happens, in all relationships. It's as inevitable as having feelings in the first place. So let's not be freaked out that there is hurt here. It's ok for us to hurt a little bit, and recognize it.
I think there is a tendency to treat Ag as if she is therapist on this site, and say whatever to her, or fail to take her feelings into account when posting- thinking "she can take it." We tend to treat her as an authority figure...and she does represent a certain amount of authority. But since she is not acting as a therapist to any of us, but rather, as a *volunteer* moderator- we all need to be just as considerate of her feelings as we would any other member. She has not overstepped in any way- she is walking a difficult line as both member and moderator, as someone wise here pointed out. It seems to be a thankless task at times, not because we are "bad," -no- but because of the complicated nature of the role she has. Ag needs just as much care and concern for her feelings as Monte or any of us do! I'm deeply sorry that Monte has deleted her posts, and I'm praying that she'll come back. I deeply value her friendship and her insight, her compassion and her beautiful soul. But- though I am loyal to both of my friends here, I cannot agree that Ag did anything wrong. I do appreciate that Monte was trying to defend her feelings, and make herself understood. I wish she would continue trying, as Ag is doing. Forgiveness is so difficult- it's like- a mastery-level thing.
I love you guys. You are each amazingly good people, who care deeply about one another, and about healing and finding hope. I so appreciate each and every one of you, you've really helped and inspired me. I just want everyone reading to know that- and I mean it from my heart.
Love,
BB
quote:I think there is a tendency to treat Ag as if she is therapist on this site, and say whatever to her, or fail to take her feelings into account when posting- thinking "she can take it." We tend to treat her as an authority figure...and she does represent a certain amount of authority. But since she is not acting as a therapist to any of us, but rather, as a *volunteer* moderator- we all need to be just as considerate of her feelings as we would any other member. She has not overstepped in any way- she is walking a difficult line as both member and moderator, as someone wise here pointed out. It seems to be a thankless task at times, not because we are "bad," -no- but because of the complicated nature of the role she has. Ag needs just as much care and concern for her feelings as Monte or any of us do! I'm deeply sorry that Monte has deleted her posts, and I'm praying that she'll come back. I deeply value her friendship and her insight, her compassion and her beautiful soul. But- though I am loyal to both of my friends here, I cannot agree that Ag did anything wrong. I do appreciate that Monte was trying to defend her feelings, and make herself understood. I wish she would continue trying, as Ag is doing. Forgiveness is so difficult- it's like- a mastery-level thing.
I've stayed away from this thread because it has been extremely triggering to me. I could not find the right words.
Beebs, I think you said it all very beautifully above and I just wanted to say I agree with what you wrote and I thank you for it.
Hugs to all
TN
Beautifully and thoroughly said, Beebs. Thank you. 
Thank you ((((BB))))). You are so very right in what you said
I have been upset by what has been going on here - have questionned myself 'am I one of those people that has been indirectly referred to as maybe upsetting people, by some comments?' I guess none of us will ever know. For me it is really difficult to come on here and share even a tiny bit of my stuff, but wen I have I have alwys felt cared for and understtod by the amazing diverse and kind people on this forum ...now I'm feeling quite unsettled to post.
May I send a hug to anybody else who has been upset, frightened or triggered by this thread. I hope we can all learn from this and move forwards.
starfishy
I have been upset by what has been going on here - have questionned myself 'am I one of those people that has been indirectly referred to as maybe upsetting people, by some comments?' I guess none of us will ever know. For me it is really difficult to come on here and share even a tiny bit of my stuff, but wen I have I have alwys felt cared for and understtod by the amazing diverse and kind people on this forum ...now I'm feeling quite unsettled to post.
May I send a hug to anybody else who has been upset, frightened or triggered by this thread. I hope we can all learn from this and move forwards.
starfishy
That was very well put BB, you have a lovely way with words.
Hugs to all
Butterfly
Hugs to all
Butterfly
BB,
I don't know if you are saying that I've hurt AG or accused AG of things. That's what I read from your post. I think AG was reading malignant intentions into my first post. Which was not the case. I tried to PM her to sort it all out but she has blocked my PM's.
In any event I felt very hurt by her post to me, accusing me of meaning all kinds of things I didn't mean. I suppose it's hard when you don't know people personally and you read things into stuff that isn't there. I'm hurt that she's blocked me. She's the moderator here.
I was vague because I didn't want to make accusations. I felt very bad for Monte. I'm sorry that my indirectness has caused problems for some people. Starfish, I certainly wasn't indirectly sending you a message. Please be rest assured.
It seems to me that some people can express themselves indiscriminately and others can't without being jumped on. I think I'll join Monte in the forum graveyard.
I don't know if you are saying that I've hurt AG or accused AG of things. That's what I read from your post. I think AG was reading malignant intentions into my first post. Which was not the case. I tried to PM her to sort it all out but she has blocked my PM's.
In any event I felt very hurt by her post to me, accusing me of meaning all kinds of things I didn't mean. I suppose it's hard when you don't know people personally and you read things into stuff that isn't there. I'm hurt that she's blocked me. She's the moderator here.
I was vague because I didn't want to make accusations. I felt very bad for Monte. I'm sorry that my indirectness has caused problems for some people. Starfish, I certainly wasn't indirectly sending you a message. Please be rest assured.
It seems to me that some people can express themselves indiscriminately and others can't without being jumped on. I think I'll join Monte in the forum graveyard.
Liese,
I was very angry when I read your last post and did not wish to communicate any further until I had a chance to calm down and trust myself to be courteous and reasonable, so I blocked you. I am not limiting your ability to speak, I am exercising my right to speak when I wish to. I also did not accuse you of multiple malign intentions, I said straight out that I was angry about your oblique reference. A single thing.
I have no idea how this has managed to get so out of hand. I would close the thread but I am sure that it would only give the impression I was trying to avoid consequences of my behavior.
I believe it's possible to work through this but cannot force anyone to stay and do so.
FOT I am sorry to see you go.
For those who have left I wish you well in your journeys and hope you can find a place where you feel safe.
BB thank you so much and to everyone else who wrote to support me. I am done speaking on this thread unless someone addresses me with a direct question.
Liese, if you wish to discuss this on PM I will unblock you.
AG
PS I am driving back and forth to NYC today to drop off my daughter at college so my response times are slow.
I was very angry when I read your last post and did not wish to communicate any further until I had a chance to calm down and trust myself to be courteous and reasonable, so I blocked you. I am not limiting your ability to speak, I am exercising my right to speak when I wish to. I also did not accuse you of multiple malign intentions, I said straight out that I was angry about your oblique reference. A single thing.
I have no idea how this has managed to get so out of hand. I would close the thread but I am sure that it would only give the impression I was trying to avoid consequences of my behavior.
I believe it's possible to work through this but cannot force anyone to stay and do so.
FOT I am sorry to see you go.
For those who have left I wish you well in your journeys and hope you can find a place where you feel safe.
BB thank you so much and to everyone else who wrote to support me. I am done speaking on this thread unless someone addresses me with a direct question.
Liese, if you wish to discuss this on PM I will unblock you.
AG
PS I am driving back and forth to NYC today to drop off my daughter at college so my response times are slow.
Really hesitating to say anything here, but I just wanted to mention that I feel this thread has become toxic. I see the value in addressing several of the issues brought up here, but I see this conversation hurting so many people who have posted (and who knows how many who haven't posted) that, in my VERY humble opinion, I feel any further concerns should be addressed via PM. I don't think the thread should be closed or deleted as everyone has the right to post here if they wish, but I just want to encourage everyone to consider how many people are on this forum and how this may be affecting others. I'm not saying that what you all are talking about isn't important, but they are things that can also be discussed perhaps more honestly and effectively through PMs.
You can tell me that I'm facilitating the avoidance of issues that need to be addressed, that's fine, but I just don't feel that this is helpful at all.
You can tell me that I'm facilitating the avoidance of issues that need to be addressed, that's fine, but I just don't feel that this is helpful at all.
I would like to thank everyone for TRYING so damn hard with this thread. I see so much concerted effort here to be honest and true to the self, AND to take care of others.
I know this has been difficult so far and as Kashley says a lot of people are probably feeling scared and upset.
I would like to make a suggestion for those who are interested: think about the ways that conflict was handled in your family of origin, and see if you can find one way to do something better now for you.
So if in conflict people became self-punishing, maybe this is time for self-care. If in conflict people ran away, maybe this is the time to reach out to someone. If in conflict people always had the last word, maybe it's time to be thoughtful and reflect instead.
In my family, conflict meant that the world stopped, and everything was devoted to the screaming and shouting, which was always spelling out impending doom (DIVORCE! etc). Now, instead, I want to just trust that things will become peaceful again here, and keep on with the 'normal' stuff, both in my life and on the boards. Normal conversation, normal routines. I know the conflict has happened and is happening and I feel for everyone. And I also am going to keep being part of what I love here, the community, honesty, sharing and so on.
Take care everyone.
Love,
Jones
I know this has been difficult so far and as Kashley says a lot of people are probably feeling scared and upset.
I would like to make a suggestion for those who are interested: think about the ways that conflict was handled in your family of origin, and see if you can find one way to do something better now for you.
So if in conflict people became self-punishing, maybe this is time for self-care. If in conflict people ran away, maybe this is the time to reach out to someone. If in conflict people always had the last word, maybe it's time to be thoughtful and reflect instead. In my family, conflict meant that the world stopped, and everything was devoted to the screaming and shouting, which was always spelling out impending doom (DIVORCE! etc). Now, instead, I want to just trust that things will become peaceful again here, and keep on with the 'normal' stuff, both in my life and on the boards. Normal conversation, normal routines. I know the conflict has happened and is happening and I feel for everyone. And I also am going to keep being part of what I love here, the community, honesty, sharing and so on.
Take care everyone.
Love,
Jones
Jones... in my FOO there was no room for disagreement and it was met with swift punishment. Conflict was solved with anger on the part of my mother and I was beat and then her attention and affection was withdrawn and I was shamed and left alone. All of this causes me to run like hell from conflict. Conflict means anger, violence and shame to me. I am trying to work on this with my T.
TN
TN
quote:Originally posted by Jones:
I would like to thank everyone for TRYING so damn hard with this thread. I see so much concerted effort here to be honest and true to the self, AND to take care of others.
I know this has been difficult so far and as Kashley says a lot of people are probably feeling scared and upset.
I would like to make a suggestion for those who are interested: think about the ways that conflict was handled in your family of origin, and see if you can find one way to do something better now for you.
Conflict inevitably would be used as an excuse to punish my brother, who in turn punished my sister and me through violent physical and sexual aggression. My sister and I would then turn on each other. Eventually we learned to suck it up and emotionally disappear and now as an adult I emotionally AND physically disappear.
So, rather than disappear as I'd like to, I will instead pull a quote from one of my favorite posts on this forum ever...also by Jones:
quote:Argh! F youManateethis thread!!!*JonesHemlock stuffsManateethis thread into a barrel of poison, sets fire to it, catapults it into the air then rejoices with trumpet calls as it plummets into an ocean full of starving snapping sharks*
Hope that made somebody smile for even a second because it's a great visual for many troubling situations. (Thank you, Jones.)
I just want to say that I am saddened by this entire thread. I feel like our community of supportive and caring people has gone down the toilet. Yeah, I feel scared to post things now. I feel sad that Monte has run off. She is one of the main reasons I ever come to this place, and now she is gone. I'm not blaming anyone, I just feel sad to see people I care about being upset with each other, seeing people attack each other, point fingers, feel angry, hurt, etc. This place has always been peaceful (with only very few exceptions) and supportive and respectful. I am really sad to see this thread go in this direction. It really should have been 'closed' a long time ago. It's so out of hand now that it's become almost a battleground for 'you said this and I'm hurt; and 'you didn't say this, but you implied it' and 'I'm angry and hurt' and basically 'you suck because you don't communicate the way I think you should', etc.
We all have our own feelings, our own backgrounds, our own perspectives, projections, ways of dealing with hurt, etc. PLEASE!! Can we just end this thread? Close it up and forgive each other for what has transpired here? I don't think Monte or AG meant anything disrespectful to each other, and what was said by Monte was in the heat of the moment. I personally was scared about the facebook/twitter buttons, but for some they can be terrifying. No one wants to be exposed or more vulnerable than they make themselves here as it is. I think we can all understand that.
I hate to see people fighting, being angry, upset, hurt, and feeling the need to hide or just completely leave this place. In the past I have found this to be such a supportive and helpful community, but now since so much negative and somewhat hurtful crap has been put out there it is no longer that 'safe place' that is used to be.
Can we please forgive one another, let it be water under the bridge, so to speak, close this thread and TRY to get on with our regularly scheduled lives???
Thanks!
MTF
We all have our own feelings, our own backgrounds, our own perspectives, projections, ways of dealing with hurt, etc. PLEASE!! Can we just end this thread? Close it up and forgive each other for what has transpired here? I don't think Monte or AG meant anything disrespectful to each other, and what was said by Monte was in the heat of the moment. I personally was scared about the facebook/twitter buttons, but for some they can be terrifying. No one wants to be exposed or more vulnerable than they make themselves here as it is. I think we can all understand that.
I hate to see people fighting, being angry, upset, hurt, and feeling the need to hide or just completely leave this place. In the past I have found this to be such a supportive and helpful community, but now since so much negative and somewhat hurtful crap has been put out there it is no longer that 'safe place' that is used to be.
Can we please forgive one another, let it be water under the bridge, so to speak, close this thread and TRY to get on with our regularly scheduled lives???
Thanks!
MTF
Hi All,
I am painfully aware of how negatively this is affecting everyone on the forum. I'm sorry as I know it is important this is a safe place. I think that normally discussing our conflict styles is an important thing to do and Jones I appreciate what you said which I think helped to calm things down.
But I also think that this thread has gotten very ugly, despite EVERYONE's obvious desire not to escalate this. So I'm going to close this thread and give everyone a chance to take a deep breath, calm down and do what they need to do in order to feel safe.
If anyone finds talking about conflict and how it was handled in their FOO helpful, please feel free to start another thread.
As for me, and my part in this, if anyone wants to speak to me about, express their feelings about it, or discuss what happened, please feel free to PM and I will answer as quickly as I can. I promise to do my best to remain non-defensive and try to listen. OTOH, if you feel it is necessary to continue this discussion in public, you should also feel free to start another thread but please post trigger warnings on it so that other members may avoid it if they so desire.
I'm sorry and my thanks to everyone.
AG
I am painfully aware of how negatively this is affecting everyone on the forum. I'm sorry as I know it is important this is a safe place. I think that normally discussing our conflict styles is an important thing to do and Jones I appreciate what you said which I think helped to calm things down.
But I also think that this thread has gotten very ugly, despite EVERYONE's obvious desire not to escalate this. So I'm going to close this thread and give everyone a chance to take a deep breath, calm down and do what they need to do in order to feel safe.
If anyone finds talking about conflict and how it was handled in their FOO helpful, please feel free to start another thread.
As for me, and my part in this, if anyone wants to speak to me about, express their feelings about it, or discuss what happened, please feel free to PM and I will answer as quickly as I can. I promise to do my best to remain non-defensive and try to listen. OTOH, if you feel it is necessary to continue this discussion in public, you should also feel free to start another thread but please post trigger warnings on it so that other members may avoid it if they so desire.
I'm sorry and my thanks to everyone.
AG