Hi Stoppers

That's a lot of books. Sometimes I scour books for answers too only to come up more confused.

IN response to your decision whether to stay in therapy or not.... I can say this I know individual therapy is not for everyone. But I wonder too if the therapist you see is a good fit for you or not. Is this the only T you have ever seen? My other question is why did you seek therapy? I don't mean that in a challenging way. I am just asking because I wonder if that may help you find your way on this strange path. BTW no one can fail at therapy. I don't think you are failing. Sometimes therapy fails though but not the client.

At any rate it sounds like such a painful place to be and I am sorry that your attempts at finding relief seem so dismal right now.

I have tried therapy two times before - once in my early 20s( a couple of years) and once about 15 years later for about three months - I definitely did not click with the middle T. I just do not know what I am supposed to be doing or how their comments/feedback/intervention/insight (whatever it is they do) are supposed to help. I went in for anxiety and now am so depressed I spend 16 or so hours in bed each day.

Dear Stoppers -

I don't really have any answers, but I wanted to say first of all that I feel for you - I'm really sorry that you are going through such a heavy period of depression. I also wanted to say not everyone goes through a strong positive transference, loving their therapist, and so on. I think there are quite a few people here who have that experience just because those are the people who are likely to google transference or attachment in therapy, and then find this place. But it's not the only way or the necessary way, by any means.

I have also been wanting to apologize for a pretty brusque response I gave you a while back on the question of how to measure progress - I was trying to get at the value of acknowledging one's emotional experience as important, but I was in a bad space right then and bumbled it - so, for what it's worth, I'm sorry for that.

I guess the way I see the point of therapy is that life is full of this endless stream of highly variable sensations and experiences - good, bad and indifferent. Depression, anxiety and other psychological difficulties stop us from feeling the full range - everything hits us as bleak, or frightening, and life loses at least some of its value. But there are reasons for the psychological difficulties, a logic to them - they come out of particular interpretations about the world and the self, and particular unresolved emotional events. So the point is to revisit the emotional events/circumstances and the interpretations, and to have new emotional experiences (such as those of care, communication and emotional companionship), to see what else is possible. Often through that process a fuller range of sensation and feeling gets opened up again.

An example deriving from your example might be - therapist says to client that it seems like her mother was sadistic. A client who has never seen it that way before or had anything to measure her mother's behaviour against might feel relief at having this recognised, anger at the recognition, sadness for what she's lost, a sense of companionship that someone else knows this now, a new understanding that she wasn't responsible for the way her mother hurt her. But none of those responses are *necessary* or correct. Another client who always knew thather mother was sadistic might not be affected by the insight at all. A client who sees herself as irrevocably damaged by her mother's actions might feel despair at the comment. A client who doesn't see her emotional situation as anything to do with her mother's treatment might feel nothing - or there could be a dozen other responses and reasons for them. By talking about how it *does* feel, the reality of the client's emotional situation comes into view and is communicated. And because emotions are not cast in stone, once the real situation is communicated, it is opened up to new inputs, and more of that range of experience may open up.

I don't know if this is making sense or if this sounds to you like more of the magic crap. Please feel free to say so either way. I'd like to know more about what your experience of the therapy process is, and how you see it - if you feel like writing more.

Jones

Jones- thank you for your explanation and not to worry about response to how to measure progress - I did not take it badly.
I just keep coming back to how the therapeutic process makes no sense to me. For example-I understand your words in that I understand English - but I have no idea how opening up the range of experience is useful. I do not dislike either of the ts. They seem like decent enough people. But I leave each week more frustrated and confused and often feeling worse than when I went in and with no idea what I am supposed to do to help me with either anxiety or depression.

Stoppers, I see it as useful because chronic depression and anxiety are about getting stuck in a very limited range of feelings. Then life becomes overwhelmingly painful. When the full range of experience is available painful feelings still happen, but so too do joy, love, pleasure. There's an internal balance. Is it that you are not sure why that is good, to feel those good things?

I don't have a problem with the idea of feeling joy, etc. And the fact that I was not feeling anything good anymore was one of the reasons I decided to try therapy again, because nothing else was working. But therapy does not seem to be helping either. I just keep getting worse and I do not oknow what I am supposed to do differntly to make it work.

Stoppers,

Sorry to butt in but I'm just wondering if you have talked to either of your T's about how frustrated you feel. Maybe there is something they can do to help you.

As L2F suggested, it may not be you but the therapists, or the match between you. I think all anyone should have to do in therapy to make it work is feel what you really feel, and put that into words whenever you can. That should be enough for the Ts to work with.

Have they said what they think about you getting worse, or whether you should be doing anything differently? How long have you been seeing these Ts?

hi stoppers - it's so good to hear from you! i don't have much feedback (a bit of a zombie right now) - just wanted to say that I have been wondering how you have been doing and I'm so sorry things are so crummy right now. hang in there, jane

Thanks everyone. I have been with one for about 8 months and the other for almost 6 months. I have seen about 8 others for one time meetings during this time to see if I could find one who could explain the idea of therapy better or to see if it appeared to be a better chemistry - but these two were the ones I did not instantly hate. I have talked to them about it. They have both suggested drugs and to trust the process. Neither one has opposed me quitting, but they are not suggesting it either yet. Neither has anything concrete to suggest about how to measure progress or how to know when to quit. The one I have been seeing the longest says she does not consider it a failure (I have not asked the other that directly about failing), but I fully believe they never think they fail (it is the client who is resistant, unwilling to change, etc) and this one is at least not then blaming me out loud.

Stoppers,

Maybe seeing them both is interfering with you developing a relationship with one? Can you talk more about your goals with them? Where you would like to see yourself? It's not about failure and it's not about blame. If we really want to blame someone, I did read that every therapy failure IS the therapists fault because in theory I guess they are supposed to be able to help us work through all this stuff but IMO that's unrealistic.

Do they know you are seeing two T's? I've heard that's not a good idea.

Can you pinpoint why you get so frustrated? Do you enjoy talking with them at all, like in a social sense? Can you see anything positive at all out of talking to them?

Liese - they do not know about each other, but I do not know why that would matter. They are fairly different to talk to. I have also heard that ts do not like you to see two at once, but without knowing why, in some concrete terms, I cannot see how it is hurting anything. I do not mind talking to them and I am not completely unattached to them, but I have others with whom I can chat for free, so it sort of needs to be more than chatting for me to see any real value. Goal wise I thought it was fairly simple when I went in - to quit feeling so anxious when I know in reality there is nothing for me to be anxious over. I am frustrated because I seem to be worse, I do not understand what to do when they give pronouncements - my basic response is like "okay= so even if I do not disagree with you, how does that information help me? How do I use it to stop feeling this bad?" I am frustrated because I do not see the point in most of the things we talk about, I see no structure or pattern in appointments, I have no credible way to measure progress, and I leave each appointment with a great sense of bewilderment, frustration and anger.

Stoppers - I kind of chuckled to myself when I read your post this morning. (thank you for that) I just mean, I thought I was being stupid for not understanding this therapeutic process. I thought that maybe it was just me who doesn't understand how this is supposed to work. THEY tell me that things will get better, it will work, just be patient and learn to change your thoughts. Ok - So I have been in t for a long time now, years, and I still feel like crap. I take the drugs, I've changed the drugs, I've had different t and still I feel like crap most of the time and want to die. I thought it was just me - I'm not getting it - I must be stupid. Thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one who doesn't understand the simple phrases that t say.

I'm sorry I can't help you much but I wanted you to know you are not alone in this.

Smiley, thanks for the reassurance about not being alone. Sorry to hear you are feeling the same.

((((SMILEY)))) (((((STOPPERS)))))

Wish I could give you all the answers but it's a journey each one of us has to undertake on our own. Depression is scary. Hope you both can find some joy somewhere.

HUGS,

Liese

Right now I would settle for understanding what is supposed to happen in therapy. Joy could be saved for another day.

((((STOPPERS)))))

How would things change for you if you understood what was supposed to happen in therapy? How would it make you happier? Would it give you more control over the process?

Therapy is kind of like working on a college degree. You have to finish the four years completely before you get the big payoff. If you stop halfway, you may be more educated but you still won't have that degree. If you weren't going to therapy, what would your life be like in 4 years?

Hang in there,

Liese

P.S. Having two T's is not a good idea because emotionally you need to listen to just one message, not T. Maybe you would get more attached to one if you just had one instead of having 2. It sounds to me like you are looking for reasons not to get attached and to run from therapy. Not making a judgment, just an observation from one who has ran and continues to run from therapy every chance she gets.

hi stoppers,
i'm sorry you're feeling frustrated and disillusioned with therapy. and it might sound like one of those unhelpful, patronising things - but i think it's early days yet and if you can, hang in there! maybe some people feel a change sooner, but for me it was also a very slow, long process, it took me a few years just to get started. i cant really remember if i felt really frustrated in the beginning or i didnt really expect much from it anyway.

i also think the understanding has to come from a different place. i felt like i was missing something for ages, because it made sense intellectually, but it just didn't click at all. sorry if this is unhelpful.

look after yourself and hang in there.

puppet

Liese - Thank you for your responses. If I knew what was supposed to happen, I would then know whether it was or not, if I was wasting tons of time and money or not, if it was something I wanted or not. I am not interested in being attached to them. I do not see how being attached to them will help (I have read several books on attachment and it still does not seem to fit what I would be looking to fix). If one does not understand what is supposed to go on, then how is it possible to know whether it is running away or stopping wasting time and money. Also I do not agree with the so called experts who get into you cannot be attached to two at once - even assuming the attachment is something to be desired. We are constantly attached to multiple people. It has always seemed more to me that it is another of the t versions of controlling clients - they have more control and power if you do not have anything to compare it to.

Puppet -How did it make sense intellectually?

I went to an appointment today, left worse than when I went in, fixed that in the only way I know how to stop the overwhelming anger and frustration, and then called and cancelled for next week to see if not going will make my week better than going seems to do.

((((STOPPERS))))

Sorry it was so hard for you today.

Liese

TRIGGER WARNING
I have an appointment next week with another one of these people to see if i can get some clarification. Perhaps i shall assemble my own team of experts for as long as money holds out. The one to whom I seem to be attached but will not answer any question i have about therapy and thus the rage and frustration which leads to si so I can function after an appointment, the one with whom I do not want to fight with but is not much clearer on explanation and seeing the second one has made me more able to function during the week after seeing the first one, and a new one whose only function is to explain what is going on with the other two and hopefully give information on how to prevent attachment in general and specifically how to detach more from the first one.

quote:

and a new one whose only function is to explain what is going on with the other two and hopefully give information on how to prevent attachment in general and specifically how to detach more from the first one.

Hi Stoppers...I would like to give you a more thorough, accurate and helpful response, but forgive me, I don't know your story well enough. Can you tell me a bit about why you are in therapy, what kind of therapist you have, and what you would like to see as a result of therapy. You mention depression so I know you would like to see improvement there, but anything else? If you feel comfortable can you relate some of your background/childhood experiences? Only if you feel you can.

As for attachment... I think you may be looking at attachment in the wrong way. Being able to attach to a T is a good and healthy sign. That at your core you are healthy and if you allow the attachment to flourish you can mine much healing and growth from it. It really is not something to break or avoid or deny. Having this attachment to a T (who is also comfortable with it and understands it) will allow you to go back to those developmental stages in your life that were not allowed to happen when we are children... they either were stunted, or went awry in some way. The healthy attachment to a T also enables us to change our attachment status if we were attachment injured as children. There are many attachment styles and some of them are not healthy and were developed to help us cope with abusive or neglectful childhoods. But now, they hamper us in our lives.

I would also hope that you are seeing a T who is knowledgeable and experienced in psychodynamic therapy. If you have attachment injury and an abusive past, CBT is not likely to be very helpful to you.

If you can give me a bit more information, I will try to explain in more detail how therapy works, what you can/should expect and how it plays out. I will say that psychodynamic therapy does take years in most complicated cases. My current T says it takes two years just to get to know each other. I can see how true this is. I'm with him almost a year and I have barely scratched the surface with him. Of course, I came to him traumtized by the abandonment of a former T.

Look forward to hearing from you.

TN

TN - thank you. I went to see first T because of anxiety over my job (that I knew had no basis in reality, but involved a promotion and review process that sent me into a tail spin despite reassurances by all concerned that there was nothing to worry about - but the process takes over a year to complete) that had been overwhelming and had lasted for 6 or so months and was becoming bad. After the promotion was confirmed for the final time (it involves many committees) a couple of months ago, I have been
depressed. My childhood was fairly uneventful.
I started seeing the second T when I was checking out others to see if there might be a better match. I do not dislike first T except for the refusal to explain how therapy is supposed to work and how to know if it is or not. Both say they are psychodynamic/eclectic.

In talking about my childhood, I am always reminded of this Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers) quote:

quote:

My childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds- pretty standard really.

Stoppers, thanks for the Dr Evil quote - that totally made me laugh.

I too am involved in a system where there is a really lengthy, excruciating promotion and review process. It's enough to set anybody on edge. I have seen my colleagues really get freaked out by it and have a lot of anxiety about it myself (although I'm not there yet). I saw one of my colleagues fall apart after the process was (successfully) over, and it makes sense for depression to set in once the pressure is relieved a bit. I think it gets to everyone, but a lot of people act like it's no big deal in these environments, just to save face - meanwhile there's all kinds of merry hell at home.

Jones

Thanks Jones. I usually am able to act like things are no big deal, but I was failing miserably at it this time, so much so that colleagues were becoming concerned and being that transparent scared me. I am afraid I find the vagueness of therapy to be too intolerable = the cure is more dangerous than the disease. I had hoped this time to be able to make some sense of the process, but I am dumb as a box of hammers when it comes to therapy.

Yeah, it scares me too, showing my hand at work. It's like, worst nightmare territory.

I gotta say this, Stoppers - maybe therapy's hard to understand just coz it's scary to relate to someone that way. You're obviously bright, but when people get into fight-or-flight mode, it's pretty much impossible to think and make sense of stuff. Could that be happening to you?

Jones- there is an element of flight or fight it would seem. It takes a few minutes of being in the office each week before I can literally hear her because of my pulse pounding in my ears. This is an improvement from the beginning when I would also shake and have chest pains. I sound nuts.

hi stoppers,

i probably won't be very good at explaining this - and you are getting a lot of very good explanations - but what i'll try to expand on what i meant. for example, intellectually it made sense that allowing myself to become close to and letting my T see me and asking her for help - might help me with other relationships and also my relationship with myself, because these have always been the hardest things for me to do. i mean, when i read about other people doing this or talking about this, it made perfect sense. but if i thought about it in the context of myself and my T - then it just really freaked me out and i though of every excuse why it doesn't apply to me. but i think this resistance was necessary at the time, and it only eroded away very very slowly, as i realised i would be safe to start feeling more and trusting more. and it's still very much there, i still put up such a fight and say i will only depend on myself!

i have fought the attachment for so long and now i feel like i am losing the battle, the part of me that wants (and needs) the attachment is stronger now and is just going for it - whether i like it or not. the process of getting here has been very slow for me and i think it's different for everyone. i think its best not to worry too much about attachment for now, go at your own pace and start where you are. do you think you're still trying to establish whether you trust your T(s) with these questions of whether therapy is working or not?

i'm sorry work has been so hard for you and you feel like you're losing control a bit. that is terrifying, i know that feeling and i'm sorry you're going through it. maybe its also a way of telling yourself that you need to work out what's going on inside you and can't be a perfect robot at work anymore.

your childhood story made me very sad. it sounds like your pain is buried deep. i really hope your next therapy session brings you some hope.

puppet

Puppet - thank you. I wish I intellectually understood how talking to someone would help me stop feeling terrible when I know there is rationally nothing wrong. I probably do not trust them when they tell me therapy can help and is proceeding as it should. It seems to me to be a bit like asking a butcher if it is okay to eat meat.