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It’s been a while since I’ve posted here openly asking for support, guess it’s time now though.

Anyone else have this kind of issue, where your normal day to day moment by moment experience of yourself and the world is that of permanent fear? Or anxiety, whichever label fits I don’t know, I just call it fear because that’s what it feels like to me.

I’ve sort of known that the biggest issue I have is this fear stuff but it’s so terrifying that I can barely think about living in such a state of fear all the time without it really freaking me out. If there’s one feeling I cannot deal with, it’s fear Frowner.

It informs and infuses everything about me, my every perception, my every thought, my world view and my view of myself. Needless to say I experience everything in a profoundly negative way, especially the automatic and spontaneous thoughts that come at me from the back of my mind, they’re all so negative and it feels like my god surely it’s not me thinking that, but there’s only me in here so it must be what I think and I just can’t tolerate living with myself knowing that all this negative anti-me frightening threatening stuff is coming at me every moment of the day with every perception and thought from inside my own head.

See having this constant stream of negative fear based perceptions (I defend against it by staying up here in my cognitive rational intellectual think-about-everything mode) is like having a permanent toxic entity inside my head, there’s no safety and no way I can even begin to try and think well of myself or self soothe in any way – such things that would help me counter the extreme negativity of what goes on in my head if the toxic entity didn’t always know what I was up to and made sure I don’t get to have anything soothing or calming or safe or good Frowner Frowner. Think of the idea of an inner critic but imagine it as having as its sole purpose, to destroy all and any sense of my self I might have as good or innocent or even just plain ok, to attack every single thought and perception and feeling I have as bad and wrong Frowner Frowner Frowner Frowner Frowner.

I’ve struggled with this most of my life, it came from a psychotic episode I experienced when I was a teenager, and I’ve managed to survive with it in my head by not being in my own mind properly, always having to doubt my own perceptions, always living in other people’s reality. Which is not the safest place to be but a damn sight safer than my own head.

What I’ve been having to face recently is the fact that nothing I do either in therapy or by myself changes my negative set up one little bit, and that until and unless I find a way of dealing with this global fear nothing will change either. I can’t actually control this fear and the more I’m trying to live around it, the stronger and more pathological it gets. Somehow I’m going to have to get in there and try and deal head on with it Eeker.

My latest grasping at straws idea is that maybe the fear has invaded my head and my perceptions and my thoughts precisely because I’ve jumped into the intellectual cognitive mode as a means of defence against it, instead of being able to deal with it as ‘just’ a feeling, in my body. I tend never to live in the moment, I’m always off in my head either in the past or the future or thinking about what’s happening in the present (as opposed to just BEING in the present.)

I know there are people here who’ve done somatic therapy work, and maybe there are others who also deal with extreme fear/anxiety. I really wanted to know how you deal with it, what you do that helps, what sorts of ways there are of understanding how to deal with intolerable levels of fear? Any comments very much appreciated, especially as I know I’ve written a mega post and it takes a lot to plough through it.

LL

p.s. I’m sorry if this post comes across as whiney or self pitying. It’s serious to me and right now I’m having a hard time dealing with anything negative or critical, let alone with having criticisms levelled directly at me about my fears and feelings and way of seeing the world. So if what I’m saying has irritated or annoyed anyone, could I ask that you not tell me so, just ignore the whole thread.

And sorry for having to write this p.s. at all, it’s a measure of how paranoid I’m feeling
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I have no answer for you LL but just to say that the "fear" you talk about is what I also live with. It haunts me all day and every day. My day is quite routinely planned and anything that suddenly happens out of the ordinary throws me totally, almost brings me to a stop. I also have a negative critic in my head but that is my ED, I have no control over it.

This is the thing that I need to work through with my counsellor but the fear stops me doing anything positive at the moment. Just the thought of trying to get away from any sort of negativity is frightening me. I am safe with my fear.

Hopefully someone else can come up with something constructive for you LL, I know how scary it is.
Hi dear LL,

I am in constant fear also. The difference is only in intensivity of the feeling. One day is easier than another. But this summer I had couple of weeks being okay. And it was fantastic. Now things are hard again, because i am dealing with some high pressure at work and som painful stuff in my therapy. What helped me making my life less anxious were antidepressants and Xanax from time to time. But together with psychotherapy. However, I know that my T has the most imoprtant role in my healing. I mean therapy, eventhough I am really really slow with opening up, talking and trusting...I just need this right now, because therapy feels safe...eventhough I don't want to accept it all the timeSmiler

Hope it helps...

Oh...What helped me also was progressive muscle relaxation...especially before going to bed.

Hugs, I know how u feel...it is so tiring and scary.
(((LL))),

I am so sorry you are struggling with this. I don't know if this is the same thing but I feel like I can relate but on an opposite level. I do the same thing, but with depression and negative thoughts vs the fear/anxiety. I spend alot of time fighting myself and all my negative thoughts. The past plays in my mind over and over and all the negative of the present pulls me down instead of just being in the present. What helps me is also medication. Seems my 10 years of therapy couldn't quite nip it either Frowner However, it did give me moments of relief. The medication doesn't solve it, but makes it less intense.

I don't know if that actually makes sense in relation to what you are feeling. I just wanted you to know you are not alone in feeling that you can't "get out of your own head" in a sense.

I am thinking of you. Hang in there LL


Double Hugs Smiler
Scars, Ninna, Kmay, thanks so much both for the support and empathy, and for suggestions as to how to deal with this awful fear.

I'm so sorry you all know what I'm talking about Frowner. It's not something it's easy to describe is it, usually it's only manifest in a general background sort of way and so is really insidious.

Kmay I spent a lot of years fighting and opposing negative thoughts, experiencing them as contributing to my fear state. It's only now I realize that it's my fear creating the negative thoughts rather than vice versa. So while I get you feel debilitated by depression and negative thinking, I bet fear is also operating in its nasty sly underground way to make it all seem insurmountable.

Interestingly meds is something I haven't thought about this time, I've been on meds before but for other things. This way of living with fear pervading every aspect of my being is so endemic and long standing that I suspect meds wouldn't actually help very much at this point either.

That could be famous last words too Roll Eyes. If I start poking and prodding at the fear, who knows how it will turn out.

Scars, interesting comment, that you are safe with your fear (paradoxical maybe?) But I know what you mean, it's familiar, I have ways of living with it, not good ways but I've survived, and it's the devil I know...

Ninna doesn't it suck when you have a period where you experience what it's like to be free of fear, to feel good for a while, and then whammo the status quo takes over and it's doubly painful remembering you did feel good for a bit but it's all gone and you can't get it back. It's moments like that I could seriously hate myself (not something I'm prone to allowing myself, a conscious decision that even if I can't like myself or be nice to myself, I will NOT let myself hate myself. Tough to hold to that decision though.)

Thanks guys for your support, very much appreciated Hug two

LL
i live in fear as well. i can label my fear, at least my surface fears: i fear my younger daughter won't "find" herself and make a life for herself; i fear i will be alone for the rest of my life; i fear that i won't be able to support myself for the rest of my life; i fear that my mind will fail me; i fear that i will never be loved/understood in the way that i crave; i fear that i will never be happy.

i wonder what it is the rest of you fear? is it something specific? do you have general fears? what is it exactly that you fear? i just wonder if we can figure out what it is that we fear, maybe then we can find a way to overcome it? at least partially? or at least come to terms with it? i don't like living in fear!
Hi LL... I'm glad you asked for support.

Fear/anxiety is very familiar to me too. It just haunts me. Some days are worse than others and lately it has been really bad to the point that I had to resort to Xanax just to be able to go to work and I'm basically an anti-med person. It's also the main theme of what I am working on with T in therapy. He says as I get stronger the anxiety will abate. The fear is a defense that I will no longer need. The attachment we work on will also enable me to go through the developmental stages that I never had the chance to experience in the correct way. I never had someone there for me when things were scary and had to deal alone and my T is trying to have me experience having him there when I need someone.

I think most of us never got to be children and so we had to handle impossible things which scared us as we were not ready for them. Then it just gets worse as we get older. We feel no confidence in our ability to handle things without the horrible fear. Then I also think the fear and anxiety become such a part of us that we don't know what to do when we are not anxious. It feels "off" in some way.

I went through a period of relative peace and no anxiety in the spring of 2010. I was with oldT and had come to a place of trust with him, my son was improving with his issues, I was living life more fully, happy in school, trying new things... and then ... BAMM... oldT abandons me and I'm thrown not only into anxiety but traumatic stress. It has taken me over 2 years to move forward from that but I have not had a moment without fear and anxiety since then.

My T believes I will get there again but it will take more time. I don't know. It was nice feeling that peace but I'm not sure if I can do it again.

I'm sorry you are experiencing this too. Can you pinpoint what you are worried and fearful about or is it that free floating anxiety that just overwhelms you out of the blue?

I'm sorry I don't have a quick fix for you. I do think that a good, solid, trusting T relationship abates the anxiety to a certain point.

I'm not sure if you are in therapy now or are taking a break? I'm sorry I can't remember. I do think it's a good idea to keep talking about this with us here.

Sending hugs LL
TN
TN hello and thanks for your reply. Thanks also for explaining how the origin of out of control fear is in a crappy childhood, I have to agree with that, I’m pretty sure I’m trapped in this nightmare of fear because I never learnt how to deal with feelings as a kid (as well as other factors…)

Probably most people would call it anxiety, but I’m not good with recognizing/labelling feelings and to me it feels like straight out fear because there’s always an object. Sometimes I can label it anxiety when I’m feeling threatened without any specific image attached to that feeling of threat. That’s worse because then my mind goes into overdrive scanning all the time trying to see what the threat is, and coming up with an endless list of potential threats but nothing concrete and that really flips me out.

I am seeing a new therapist at the moment, a psychologist, and though it’s early days I think she can probably help me. I’ve finally gotten through to her about just how much fear I live in on a moment by moment basis and we are starting to address it in session. Next session we will be starting working on self soothing skills and finding a safe place – lol which will be interesting seeing as how self soothing and feeling safe simply don’t exist in my experience. I’m not sure about the attachment aspect though, yeah I can see how having a solid AF would really help with regulating fear, but I think I’m congenitally incapable of attaching and I suspect fear actually prevents that. All a big catch-22 never ending loop Frowner.

I’m glad you are feeling so solid with your T, but I’m sorry that you ended up being plunged into the nightmare of anxiety after oldT that even now you’re not sure you can lift yourself out of. I get that only too well.

LL
CD I’m sorry you too understand what I’m talking about here Frowner. It sounds like you have quite a list of concrete things to fear – have you wondered whether there is a common thread in what you fear? That might be a way of pinning the ‘enemy’ down and being able to do something about it. Thank you for replying and also, you raised some good questions that got me thinking and here’s my thoughts. The concise version lol.

I’ve spent literally decades chasing my fear, trying to work out what exactly it is I’m scared of in the hope of being able to do something about it. And I found LOTS to be scared of!

It’s taken me until now to realize that my fear itself is CREATING things to be afraid of. I’ve always known I was paranoid and had to assume most of the time that how I perceived people and the world was probably wrong but that never stopped me being terrified and it also never abated, even more or less knowing it was something in me making me see things so negatively. Double whammy, having my perceptions tell me there’s a lot to fear, but at the same time not being able to trust my perceptions either. Profound ground shifting uncertainty and doubt and yet even more fear…

I can see now though that the fear/anxiety is there first, and that automatically reacting to it (as one does!) is what creates the experience/belief that there actually is something TO fear, and the mind very obligingly comes up with an image or scenario or memory to project out into reality and make it as if true. In a word, fear is a liar.

Which is all very well and good except that once the mind has created something to fear, it’s to all intents and purposes true and real. How can you undo or disprove something that is making you afraid? The fear itself is saying red alert red alert warning warning be afraid watch out protect yourself anticipate etc etc and it’s almost impossible to override that to step back and go oh ok right I’m probably overanticipating, I’m probably fearing something that isn’t real or won’t happen…

I’ve decided to take a different tack and not chase the object of fear (which only makes it more real and more concrete and harder to undo or ignore) but to focus on dealing with the fear itself as ‘just’ a feeling. Which is where I’m at at the moment, trying to get out of my head and into my body to take the focus off the tangible expression of the fear and see how to deal with it in a physical way. That’s my hope anyway.

I have it all a bit complicated too in that the thing that creates the most fear in me is how I think, the actual process of thinking/perceiving and the fact that just about everything I think (spontaneously and automatically, not cognitively or deliberately) holds a negative message/meaning about me. That toxic entity... it’s difficult enough trying to deal with something real in the external world that makes you afraid, it’s a zillion times worse when that thing is inside your own head, is your very own process of thinking/perceiving Frowner.

I wonder if the fact that I’m so scared of fear itself and therefore resist and oppose and flip out at every fear flash only makes it stronger and more intense? You know, the adage that what you resist persists? That if I stopped fighting it and experiencing it so much as the enemy, it might, just might, lessen and become manageable. That’s my hope anyway. But it’s really hard, as all of you here probably know first hand, to ignore that stream of warning signals flooding into our brains and not react to fear with an automatic sense of threat and negative feeling even knowing that it’s ‘just’ fear…

Thank you guys so much for helping me out here, I feel a lot better for having been able to share this, I feel like I’ve managed to convey some of the nightmare in which I permanently live and had it validated, thank you Smiler

LL
Hi Lamplighter
I don't often post anymore but wanted to comment and hope it is okay to just jump in. Before i do i want to say a quick hello to some of my old friends.

I have struggled with anxiety for years and recently had quite a breakthrough with it which i am sharing in the hope it helps. For years (literally) my T kept saying to me that i must look for the evidence with things that are frightening me. (I basically live with a feeling of impending doom, generalised anxiety that something bad is definately going to happen.) I have never been able to understand what he meant by saying look for evidence, and in fact the whole sentence didn't make much sense to me.

To cut a long story short i recently started thinking about my fear with some curiosity, in the form of a question i asked myself. The question was "Is this a valid assumption i am making or is it erroneous?" For a month whatever fear, big or small came up i related to it in this way, as a sort of scientific experiment that i was interested in the result of.

What was amazing for me is that what felt like absolute definate frightening fact (hint - some black and white thinking there Big Grin ) turned out to be erroneous 99% of the time. Honestly it has been massive, like discovering the mistaken-ness of the certainty that i had about myself and my inability to cope.

The thing is trying to engage with the fear in any way is like an alcoholic trying to have just one drink. When thinking in a certain way is such a strong habit you have to treat it like an addiction and simply stop going there.

For me the first step was recognising the pattern and being able to say okay, this is my fear and then stepping back to the more neutral and curious part of my mind that was asking well is this a valid or erroneous assumption. Now that i have evidence that this thinking is not true, it has opened up a whole new life for me.

It is like that meditation analogy when you mistaken a rope for a snake and then see it is a rope. There is no discussion needed or convincing necessary as to why you have no need to be scared. It is obvious and this was such an eye opener for me. It did take a while to get the hang of because instead of avoiding any potential trouble i had to actually show up long enough to face it.

What my T said is that 'it is like there is a vicious dog and I keep busy and keep doing things to distract myself but if I can just sit with the feelings, stop resisting them, the dog will stop attacking and get curious and approach me'. So that part was hard, the staying but he was right, it is exactly like he said.

I am not too sure if i have been able to express it clearly, or if it is even helpful now that i have typed it up. But i hope it gives you something to think about. It is possible to change so keep trying, it just takes practice.

Pandora
Hello Pandora I don’t think we met properly before and I know you haven’t been around much recently so thank you very much for sharing your thoughts here Smiler.

Everything you are saying makes a lot of sense (it sounds a little like the CBT reality-checking thing, does that fit?) You sound so very positive, I’m so glad you have found a way of beating the beast. Obviously something shifted in you that you were able to suddenly see what your T had been saying, was there any one thing that flipped you into being able to look at your anxiety differently?

I have one query (lol actually make that one query that rises above all the many questions constantly bombarding my mind). As per your words in the following sentence:

quote:
Now that i have evidence that this thinking is not true, it has opened up a whole new life for me.


Can I ask how you actually got the evidence for the thinking not being true? See a lot of my fear created scenarios aren’t open to reality checking, aren’t open to being proved/disproved and don’t really exist in any kind of concrete form that lends itself to evidence gathering.

For example, I will fear (and therefore believe and experience) that someone is judging me in a specific way based on for example a frown, a glance, a tone of voice, silence, a non-response, any one of dozens of different ‘proofs’ confirming my fear – but if I try and check it out, say by openly asking the person if they are thinking of me in the negative way I experience them to be, 9 times out of 10 they say, of course not (and often will throw in a ‘you’re being paranoid’ comment to boot Frowner.) The point being that even if they are judging me, they’re not likely to be honest about it. And even if they are being honest, I can’t actually prove it enough to overcome the entrenched anti-me status quo. Fear wins every time.

Or are you talking of a different kind of evidence altogether? Maybe in line with what I’m trying to explain in my previous posts about recognizing that the fear itself creates false thinking and that understanding the nature of fear enables one to adopt the view that whatever the fear is creating, is untrue?

quote:
The thing is trying to engage with the fear in any way is like an alcoholic trying to have just one drink


Okay more than one question Big Grin. Are you saying that one shouldn’t try and sit with fear and not try and deal with it as a feeling rather than a fact? Do you not think that focusing on the somatic aspect of fear rather than the thinking part would be of any use? I do see that engaging with fear as you’re saying above is tantamount to reinforcing it and maintaining its intensity – up till now the only way I’ve had of dealing with fear is to distract like mad, to avoid it and ignore it and hope like hell it goes away if only I don’t look at it or think about it and keep my eyes firmly averted from it. But I’ve been thinking that that too only makes it more fearful and bigger and stronger.

OH BIG SIGH. Sorry for all the questions and circuitous comments. If any of it makes sense to you I’d love a reply, but I do understand that you’ve already said how you deal with it and if I haven’t got it, then no amount of explanation is probably going to get it through to me .

Thanks very much for replying, and I’m glad things sound like they are going really well for you Smiler.

LL
Hi LL

Your questions are excellent and very thought provoking, I will do my best to answer them! And yes i am in a good place, thank you for saying that.
First of all it is definately CBT orientated.

We might need to go back a step in the whole process of relating to your fears. The first inkling i had that things were not as they seemed was when i realised that the kind of thinking you described where 'you can't reality check and fear wins every time' is because it is a circle. It is like we set up a loop of thinking that there is no way out. I like to think it is a sign of our intelligence Wink because it is pretty fool proof. There is no way out and you keep looping around the fear. So that is the first thing, to see the circle and know that that is what is happening.

quote:
The point being that even if they are judging me, they’re not likely to be honest about it. And even if they are being honest, I can’t actually prove it enough to overcome the entrenched anti-me status quo. Fear wins every time.


One day when i was asking very similar questions as yours my T pointed out that i was tampering with the evidence and he reminded me that that was a criminal offence! It was funny but i didn't truly understand what he meant for a long time. The thing is i was (like you are, and i hope that doesn't offend you at all) but you are asking the wrong questions. Can you see the loop, that even if you reality check you don't believe it? Truly, i know exaclty what you mean because fear wins every time in that dynamic.

So i guess what i am talking about it a paradigm shift in a way. Somehow you have to get out the circle and for me it meant i had to doubt the only way i knew of keeping myself safe. That kind of hyper vigilance and alertness that drives my life. What my T taught me was to relax with the uncertainty, to be more comfortable with not knowing. So it is not to answer and solve the problem and to 'KNOW', it is to be okay with the discomfort of not knowing.

quote:
Are you saying that one shouldn’t try and sit with fear and not try and deal with it as a feeling rather than a fact?

What i am saying is that a feeling is not a fact. So it is to seperate that out. So you sit with the physical feeling, pounding heart etc, and the emotional pain it brings but that you understand it is not FACT. So it accepting it and knowing you are scared but it is not trying to understand or explore why, and what has lead to this and the whether this is actually about some deeper issue you need to identify etc.

It is literally sitting there scared out of your mind and just breathing in and breathing out, because you are not mistakening the feeling for a fact.

What shifted things for me was a silly experiment with the weather. I am quite embarrassed to even tell you. Embarrassed I was away from home in a very rainy place and my umbrella broke in the wind. I wasn't able to replace it for a few days and worked myself up into an absolute state that i was going to get wet and sick and i was really quite upset. So i did an expermiment 30 days without an umbrella to see what happened, to see whether i was making valid assumptions or not. The result I got slightly wet once out of 30 times. It was fascinating.

what i would suggest is to find some small thing that you can't tamper with and doubt the evidence of and test yourself. If you can grasp the concepts in a simple way, with time you will be able to apply it to more complex, uncertain situations. And it will not be because you start to believe the answers people give to your reality checking, it will be because you are okay with the not knowing if they really were cross with you or not. It won't matter as much because your need for certainty is less.

It is really late here so i will stop now. I hope i have answered your questions. If not please try me again. Chatting about it helps me clarify my thougths and questions are my thing so i love the discussion.

Goodnight LL,
Pan
(((((((lampers)))))))
i am really sorry you live in permanent fear, i know what that is like (when i dont dissociate it) and i really feel for you.

i also feel that if its so ingrained in your psyche - because i assume it started from pretty much the day you were born, and there was no one there to help you with it - then it will take a long long time to change that. i am really sorry to be so negative (and maybe i'm talking more about myself, so please forgive me for being so self involved and ignore the gloomy prediction). i suppose it took a long time to form and then to be reinforced over and over, so it will take time to be taken apart, felt, accepted... whatever the hell you're supposed to do with it, as i dont really know either... Frowner

my way of dealing with it so far has been to completely ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist. as you can see, i even struggle saying the actual word, fear. if i really think about it, there are so many things i'm afraid of, every day, every minute, every hour (many of which i would be ashamed to admit and i feel no-one would understand). i would say that trying to ignore it has had the opposite effect and it itensifies the feeling. so you are totally right about feeling it and facing it head on. i really admire your courage. i am still in denial mode most of the time. if it gets overwhelming, maybe you can just start with small fears, just face a small fear every day and build up on that slowly? i imagine it will also be a matter of building up your tolerance over time.

i grew up in fear, i lived in fear / on fear, there wasnt much else, sometimes i wonder whether i'm also addicted to it in a way. like its the only thing that keeps me going - forward/ backward, but going, being alive. if there wasn't any fear, then what would there be? if i didn't have the fear that drives me to do things / not do things, then would i be able to do anything at all...? its hard when its such a big part of you (or your defense mechanisms... which i dont really know how to separate from 'me' anyway)... maybe the first step is to accept it and see the 'positive' aspect of it too (like its the reason you survived, and you must have REALLY needed this to survive because it's a VERY WELL learned lesson, so well learned it seems impossible to unlearn it).

thank you for your post (and for everyones replies), it brought up so many things for me and its really helpful to me too. i probably wasnt much help, except to say i understand. i hope you're feeling better for sharing and good luck with fighting it (or should i say embracing it). embrace it like a frightened child hugs a teddy bear. (easy for me to say, i'm off to denial land again)



puppet
Thanks Pan for coming back and explaining. Everything you’ve said is very clear – thank you – and I think I can begin to understand what you meant.

quote:
Somehow you have to get out the circle and for me it meant i had to doubt the only way i knew of keeping myself safe. That kind of hyper vigilance and alertness that drives my life. What my T taught me was to relax with the uncertainty, to be more comfortable with not knowing. So it is not to answer and solve the problem and to 'KNOW', it is to be okay with the discomfort of not knowing.


Now that makes a huge amount of sense. If there’s one thing guaranteed to make my fear levels go through the skylights it’s uncertainty, not knowing, doubt… so yeah your description of being able to sit with the physical manifestations of fear and NOT go digging around trying to work out why and what for and where did this come from and what does it tell me about myself and the world, but just accept the (intolerable!) uncertainty – I can very much relate to that as being the way to go.

I have to say that most of the time up until recently I was (still am to a great degree) trapped in that circle you describe – the need to prove/disprove, to have some kind of certainty about things and all the time fear preventing my being able to believe anyway. Your words are very comforting and give me hope – sort of like lateral thinking in a way – step off the roundabout and look at it all differently. Lol in fact, go into the very thing the fear is saying is really dangerous and unbearable... takes quite a leap of faith I must say. But I can’t live with this level of fear messing with my mind anymore so desperation is always useful as a motivating factor…

Thank you so much for telling your own stories, I must say there is nothing to be embarrassed about with the umbrella thing – it’s also very reassuring to me (and I expect to others too) to hear such a human story and with a wonderfully happy ending. Sounds like your umbrella experiment turned out to be a great piece of reality testing Smiler.

I get the impression that curiosity is an important factor in your life? I find that I can look at and tolerate just about anything if I’m in an ‘I am interested to find out everything I can about this’ state of mind – which is really interesting because even really negative things can become quite innocuous and tolerable. Sadly only for the duration, once I’ve found out all I can then the thing reverts to being negative and aversive again. It strikes me that just being curious about something isn’t enough, even with the eureka factor present, there needs to be some shift on an emotional level. Which is why I thought looking at fear the feeling in my body (physical expression thereof) rather than fear the pseudo fact in my head might be the way to break that circle you describe so well.

Sounds like you’re saying that actually might just be the case . I like it when people spell out for me things that I don’t really know but immediately can recognize that they make absolute sense, as if I were just waiting to hear those very words Smiler Smiler Smiler.

quote:
it will not be because you start to believe the answers people give to your reality checking, it will be because you are okay with the not knowing if they really were cross with you or not. It won't matter as much because your need for certainty is less.


Bingo. Put the words right into my mouth Big Grin. I love this, you’ve explained it all so beautifully and it’s really resonating for me – thank you!

Thanks again for coming back to the forum and responding to me, I very much appreciate it.

LL
((((((( Puppet ))))))) Thanks so much for replying, and for being so honest about your own fears.

quote:
(easy for me to say, i'm off to denial land again)


LOL! I wish I could join you, if I had the ability to dissociate I tell you I would be shoving fear back in its box and doing my damnedest to ignore and deny it as well.

Thank you for your compassionate and empathic explanation of how the fear got there and that it’s become so entrenched as a way of being that it will take a long time to loosen its hold. I don’t think that’s pessimistic or negative, but realistic. I seriously doubt that I will ever be the fear-free together self confident and secure person I long to be, but I’d settle for safe in my head, that would be a good end result for me.

You make some very insightful points about how in your case fear actually has a positive role as well – spurring you on to survive and achieve. I’m afraid I’m still very much stuck in the position of experiencing fear as The Enemy. I’ve spent a lot of my life being afraid of being afraid, endless loops and circles as Pan was saying in her post. I think I will always find fear extremely aversive. I do think you’re right though about facing small fears to start off with, and the idea of building up tolerance makes a lot of sense too. Sitting with the feeling of fear without trying to escape it or change it or even understand it (at least not intellectually) I think that it really is a question of tolerance, of exposure therapy almost but graduated so as not to be overwhelming. I definitely need help with this, I hope my P comes up with the goods tomorrow.

Hey your post was immensely helpful, and not just from the fact that you showed you understand. It really helps me to hear that other people struggle with fear/anxiety and what they do to deal with it too – makes me feel less like there’s something major wrong with me. See not many people talk about fear and anxiety openly because it’s so insidious and rarely appears as a pure issue, usually other things are the issue and fear is behind them… so it’s really good to hear what others are saying about fear itself.

Thanks again to everyone for helping me with this.

LL
hi lampers,
thank you for saying my post was helpful to you too as it makes me feel slightly less selfish.
by the way, i lied when i said i see fear as a positive thing, maybe that's how i would like to see it. the thing is i am terrified of actually feeling my fear so i run away from it.

your post has brought up more things about fear for me and i hope i'm not hijacking your thread by posting more about my stuff.

i think behind the every day (every minute every hour) type of fears, there is a hidden even bigger fear (too big to even begin to process) and for me that may be the fear of being abandoned, of being left alone to die. i sometimes feel like i'm just being melodramatic, i dont know if i have anything in my past thats so traumatic as that, but once in a while i feel glimpses of this fear (terror) and it really feels like such a primal terror of dying or disintegrating. i sometimes have this image at night when i'm standing in the dark after i switched the lights off, that i'm afraid i will feel a tap on my shoulder, and if i turn around i will see the ghost of me (a black tortured shrivelled little walking corpse with bulging eyes, where the fear has lived all this time while i have conveniently run away from it). i'm really sorry if this is triggering, not sure if i should put a trigger warning, or if its just my imagination running wild. sometimes i wonder whether i'm making it bigger then it actually is, maybe its just cos its a dissociated feeling that became so big. but it does feel sooo big and so real, and i think i was left alone a lot as a baby, so maybe thats where it started and maybe it is real and it is big.

thank you for allowing me to share on your post, i didn't mean to make it all about me... you dont have to reply, unless it is helpful to you, i just wanted to share the new thoughts about fear that came to my mind.

do you think there is a primal underlying fear for you as well, that maybe kickstarted and feeds all the other fears?

i hope your P comes up with something helpful for you, keep us posted. good luck for tomorrow.

hugs,
puppet
Hey ((((((((( Puppet )))))))) no worries about posting about yourself, I not only appreciate it but think it’s really helpful to hear other people’s stories about their own experience. Makes for feeling less alone amongst other things. So thank you for coming back and posting some more Smiler.

Your image of the ghost of yourself was not at all triggering, I found it powerfully meaningful and can relate very much to it. I’m just sorry you feel that way Frowner (yeah and that I do too!)

And yes Puppet I do think there’s something primal and more fundamental going on behind all the moment by moment fear . It’s hard to not think that because SOMETHING has to have started and been feeding all the fear.

I know for me the awareness of this fear began after my psychotic episode and very much stemmed from that, but what memories I do have of the years before then are also infused with a profound black utterly lonely and alone alienated feeling, fear taken beyond being just a feeling Frowner so I suspect I was born and lived in fear all my life. I certainly don’t remember ever feeling unafraid, it’s like normal for me. I don’t know what that fear is OF though, I can guess, like you it’s some sort of abandonment/annihilation terror. And maybe it’s grown so big and pervasive precisely for the reasons you say, and maybe learning to face fear bit by bit will reign in that overwhelming blackness. That’s my hope anyway.

I have a P session later today where we are supposed to be starting to work on self soothing skills and installing a safe place, before beginning to deal head on with fear and other feelings, so I'm hoping that helps. For some reason it's a lot easier to talk about fear than it is to do anything about it Roll Eyes

LL
Sorry if this has already been said but what with everything going on in my head I am not able to read and keep the info in there.

I was thinking about this while walking home from work.

Fear is almost like a possession, it is mine and no-one else has the right to touch it. I think Puppet mentioned something about abandonment etc, things and people being taken away from an early age. So I think that as I have had many people leave me, and had a silent childhood, fear is something I can hold on to and no-one can it away. It is mine. So the counsellor will have to tread carefully because the more they try to make us give it up the more we hold onto it because it is ours.

Not sure if I have expressed it clearly enough.
thank you lampers and i'm sorry you relate too Frowner its really sad to hear that you don't remember feeling unafraid. Frowner
hope it went well at your session today.


scars, thats a very interesting thought... its strange the things we hold on to when we have nothing... and it is most definetely yours and no-one can take it from you.


puppet

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