MTF,

A week and half sounds like a long time to wait when you are feeling so miserable!!! I'd say call her. I also don't like talking to my T over the phone but last time I had something very specific that I needed to hear from him when I called and he gave it to me and I felt better about it all. And, so maybe it'll help you if you clarify with yourself just what it is that you want her to say and try to be upfront with what's bothering you.

I don't think it sounds bad at all about what she said about the attachment injury only being part of things because I tend to agree. I think I can safely say that I'm almost nearly completely securely attached to my T but I see the need for me to resolve and let go of A LOT anger and grief, I need to work on feeling entitled to my feelings, asking for what I need, knowing what I need. The list goes on and on.

MTF, forgive me for not being sure about this. Your T is the one who is really busy? And you see her only every other week?

It does sound like she is trying to let you be close to her and so maybe it is you who is uncomfortable with that closeness.

You are doing some amazing, important work and making so much progress. Don't be too hard on yourself!!!

Liese

MTF - I agree that a call would be in order. I sure T will appreciate your feelings. Many Ts appreciate when their clients share their honest feelings, even if they are directed at T. And I'm sure she'd also appreciate your regret if anything hurt her, and not receiving the good things she does have to offer you, the fact that you care about her in that way. Maybe not. I don't know your T. But that is my sense.

Also, I want to kind of agree with Liese that the ambivalence about closeness is maybe not all your T, but also you too. It's possible that she doesn't do clingy and dependent, but it's also possible that even though part of you desperately wants to be close, another part is very frightened by the riskiness of it. I know I'm always wanting T to approach, but also when he does, I panic about whether I am allowed to receive that sort of comfort, and it being withdrawn, etc. I could be wrong, but maybe your not being able to sit with her is part of that.

That said, it's OK to take your time. I know it's hard. I desperately want to approach my T, but I also know there are parts of me that aren't ready, so I'm trying to take it inch by inch.

MTF,

I agree with what has already been said. If it is going to upset you over the time between sessions then by all means give her a call if you think it would help. Also, how do you know she doesn't do clingy or dependent? I'm guessing that clingy is your word and not hers? I think many of us with trauma backgrounds feel that we are too clingy, too dependent, a burden on our T's etc. and that they would just as soon have us vaporize into outer space, but that just isn't true for the majority of T's. I would encourage you to examine your reasons for saying she doesn't do clingy and dependent and see if these feelings are based on T's actions or your fears.

I agree with Liese, you are doing really hard and important work. Give yourself some credit and don't be too hard on yourself.

Aw, MTF...yeah, you are being pretty hard on yourself. I know how hard it is to stop doing that, it's like it doesn't even occur to you that you are doing it? Anyway...by all means call your T if it would help you.

I agree with the others...how can you know that she would think you clingy and dependent? And if you are feeling that way, how are you supposed to just stop? It's feelings...and feelings can't just change cause we tell them to, right?

Big hugs,

BB

MTF, I can relate pretty well to how you are feeling. When I covertly sought out information about my T online, and actually found something I wanted (a picture of her) I was wrought with anxiety over how to handle the situation. I was terrified that if she found out what I did, she'd terminate me, yet at the same time, I knew I had to fess up to my discovery.

Sharing the list of similarities and differences feels to me like it ended up being a double edge sword, and like you said, almost setting you up for failure. More than that, though, I think that an issue, at least for me if I were going every two weeks, would be that I'd have to spend a good amount of time at the beginning of each session reconnecting with my T, and adding layers to the bridge of trust. With that much time between sessions, I'd lose some of the connectedness and comfort that would build by the end of each session. It's almost as if you're setting yourself up for a rough challenge from the get go?

I know that my T won't work with anyone who can't commit to weekly sessions, because she says going more than a week is too long to really do much work, as much of the session is spent catching up and reconnecting. I actually go twice a week, and if my schedule and finances would allow it, I'd go three times a week. The few times I've had a full week (or longer, due to vacation) between sessions, it is as if in our first session back I had to test her to make sure she was really in it for me.

You ARE doing good work MTF, this is not easy stuff! The fact that you're aware of the situation, and acknowledging your part of it is great growth. I would totally call your T and see if you can chat it out. Or at the very least, call and leave your T a message letting them know that you're sorry if anything in the letter/journal was harsh, you are trying to work through your feelings so you can make better use of your therapy. And above all, be gentle with yourself!!

((((MTF))))

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses.

Liese, yes my T is really busy. She works in an outpatient psychology clinic at a hospital and has probably 80+ patients on her case load. And yes, I see her every other week. That alone makes it hard, but the only way to see her more often is to be on her cancellation list, and with one car that my H takes to work that wouldn't work very well. You are right that is sounds like she is trying to allow some connection/closeness because she likely knows I need it, and I think it IS me who is most uncomfortable with it. Thanks for pointing that out!

Yaku, I think you are right in that part of me wants to be close to my T, but another part of me is scared by the risks it involves. I have had enough attachment issues and transference pain with her that I feel like allowing closeness with her will cause me more confusion about the relationship. I guess that is where some growth occurs though, in having what I need but learning to separate it in my mind as her care for me as my T, not my friend. Thanks!

STRM, my T once said something like, "You don't seem like the clingy type. I know clingy." It was enough to give me the impression that she doesn't do clingy. Dependent? She told me that was the reason in the beginning of my attachment that she didn't respond to me on the phone, ask questions, etc. when I told her I was attached emotionally to her. She didn't want me to become too dependent on her. So she has used both words. She hasn't come out and said, "MTF, you're too clingy and too dependent and I don't do either.", but I guess I have sensed that to be the case. And the fact that I DO cling to her, just in covert ways, tells me I AM clingy and dependent. She just doesn't know it because I want to keep it hidden. I guess it's something I need to bring up with her and really talk about. It just scares the crap out of me! Thanks for your support.

BB, you are right that it doesn't occur to me that I am being hard on myself. It's a natural thing for me. No, I don't know if she thinks I am clingy and dependent. I'm sure she doesn't because I try so hard to not be in a way that she is aware of it. I just need to bring it up and let her know how I cling and depend. Thanks for the hugs and support.

I appreciate all of you chiming in. I will try to put something together so I can talk to her about this. If it keeps bugging me I will call her. I'm sure she'll be glad I called, as she keeps telling me that when I do, it's a sign of progress.

MTF

R2G, I posted after you did and din't see your post. I agree with you that every 2 weeks isn't enough, and yes, I do find myself feeling like I spend a good amount of time reconnecting, or trying to reconnect. I often don't, and it just feels like I'm having a conversation with someone that I don't know, and I wonder if she remembers where we were last session, and what she said we'd do at that session, and she often seems to forget. I do have to admit that she does a good job considering her huge caseload. She remembers little things about my life, things I've said long ago, and stuff that I don't think many people would hold onto. She's almost 68, so it amazes me that her memory is so fantastic.

I wish I could see her more often. Last summer she had me in every week because I was on her cancellation list, and it was wonderful. But I thought I had limited sessions last year, so I had to tell her that I would have to go back to bi-weekly sessions so I wouldn't run out before the year was over. Then I found out that I had no limit and was so mad. I don't know that my T could really see me much more that she does.

Thanks for encouraging me to talk to her about this. I'm getting the vibe from everyone that I just need to do it!

MTF

So I called my T late last night after she had left the office and left her a voicemail message. She called me back this morning. I told her that I feel bad for bagging on her, and for having really high expectations of her and thinking she can read my mind and know what they are. She said, "Thank you, because I DON'T know what they are. I have inklings of what they might be, but no I can't read your mind." She said that she thinks I don't have expectations, and then I'm angry when I get nothing. Didn't make much sense, but anyway. She said that she thinks I don't express my expectations/needs to anyone, and so I never get any needs met, and that is where the anger comes from. Yeah, that is true. She said I need to start asking my parents, H, and friends for what I need, and checking out with them if my expectations are unrealistic or not. She thinks that some of them are, but that most are not, and that I need to give people the chance to tell me if they are so I can learn what is okay to ask for and what is not really reasonable to expect from people. She said there are needs I have that she is sure are perfectly reasonable to be asking to have met, from my parents, H, friends, and her. She said she thinks I know what is not okay for her to be doing for me, but that it's more likely I don't know what IS okay, and what she CAN do for me, because I have decided that everything's off limits. So next session she wants to look at the rest of what I left with her that we didn't get to (which she said she read, but needs to refresh her memory because she's read 4 other journals this week) and examine what my expectations and needs are within our relationship so I can understand what she can/can't give, etc. This is scary territory for me, but I guess it's about time I know and understand the boundaries and where my T really is, what she's willing to do for me, and such. I think it will help ease some of the fears and confusion in my head.

Anyway, I'm feeling much better, so I just wanted to say thanks again for your encouragement and suggestions that I call my T.

MTF

MTF,

I have tears in my eyes reading your latest post. First off, so happy for you that you called and that she was so incredibly receptive. I love everything she said to you.

The dependency/clingy thing is a hard one. It seems that there ARE certain schools of psychoanalytic thought that thought dependency was a bad thing. But just from the little bit of reading I've done, it seems to me that the current thinking is changing. And that "experts" are seeing that it's okay to meet their clients dependency needs. It's as if our reserves are empty and the only way to fill them up again is to become emotionally dependent the way you would if you were a child. My T is totally okay with my dependency needs and I've had a little bit of a hunch for a while that yours is too. It's just that she gives the "appearance" of being 'busy' and 'inaccessible'. My T too has a lot of patients, 160 to be exact. Of course, many only come once a month or whenever and then there is me, who goes twice a week and wishes actually I could see him 24/7 . And, I am completely and totally emotionally dependent upon him.

But I think I need to be completely and totally dependent upon him now in order to make the positive changes in my life that I need to make. It's as if he is the bridge and once I am over to the other side, hopefully I won't need him as much. I asked him if I was an empty bucket with holes and he said he does not see it that way. Of course, that was one of the most reassuring things I've ever heard. And, I do believe that your T, with her trauma background, might feel the same way. I don't know about you but I was not given emotional support at all as a child and so, it is what it is. We can only go so far on a tank of gas and we have to refill the tank or else, well, you know what will happen.

Just a question: Are there actually parents out there who give their kids emotional support? I'm not talking about any of us who are in therapy and know how important it is. But is anyone out there a witness to some really good parenting? Just wondering who the 65% securely attached people are.

Way to go!!!

Liese

Just an update.

Some days I really hate therapy. Today is one of those days. Yesterday my T called me at 8:00 to remind me of my session today and was really pretty brief and not at all friendly. It was kind of weird, but I chalked it up to something else. Well, I went in early today because I was going to see my new baby niece in the NICU, but her parents weren’t there, so I ended up in T’s office half an hour before my scheduled appointment time. She came out to get me at a quarter before the hour.

Anyway, we sat down and she asked me how I was and I said, “Okay, and crappy. It just depends on the day”. Well, she wasn’t going for that. She said, “What about me is making it crappy?”, or something weird like that. It totally took me off guard. Then I said something about how it wasn’t her, it was medication and I told her that Dr. S had put me on nortryptaline and she said it was good and safe and to give it a try, that’s it’s better to try it than keep feeling crappy.

T didn’t waste any time this session. She was prepared, and I could tell something was up because of her demeanor. She was a little more distant than usual and had the comparisons sheets I left with her last time sitting on top of my chart on her lap. She said she had gone over my stuff again and she wanted to read some things to me because she could see a pattern emerging. Well, she pretty well read the entire list of things about her, then went immediately to the journal entry and just kept on reading. I don’t think she missed any of it, but she did ad-lib here and there because she didn’t have her glasses on. As she started into the journal entry I started to cry. I sat there wishing I had never left it with her. My feelings about her and our ‘relationship’ change so frequently that I really don’t even feel the same way today that I felt when I wrote that entry almost a month ago. That’s why I called her last week and apologized to her for being hard on her and having these high expectations of her. I guess she didn’t put the two together. I told her today that that was why I had called her last week. It didn’t seem to make a bit of difference.

When she finished reading everything she paused for a bit. She said she feels bad that I feel so much fear in therapy with her and that I can’t open up to her; that’s what therapy is all about and she feels like there’s no hope for our relationship if I can’t be open with her. I felt like absolute crap. I started bawling even harder because I knew where this was all going. She said she was feeling like she was doing me more harm than good and that she was in the way of my progress. She said I deserve to have a therapist who I feel understands and accepts me and who I am not afraid of opening up to, and that it’s a waste of my money and time to keep doing therapy that isn’t working, and she didn’t want to see me doing that. She said something about it being a while now that we’ve been working together and that she feels bad that she’s interfered with my progress. She doesn’t want to be in that position. I told her it’s me, not her. She said over and over again that it’s not me; it’s more her, but it’s the dyad, and I have to feel safe. She said from my comparisons list I felt more safe and accepted and normalized by my PT than I do by her. I said something about the fact that I feel this way in any attachment relationship, not just this one. That after what I went through with my PT, I am fearful of a repeat and NEVER want to go there again because it was so extremely painful. Then she said maybe I need a therapist that I am not attached to in order to work through my attachment issues with her. She asked me if the thought of seeing another therapist was scary. I told her it was, and that I had already tried that and it felt wrong.

She mentioned a new therapist in the office who she said she was pretty sure I wouldn’t get attached to. She listed the other Ts and said whether she thought I’d get attached to them or not and that the one I would prefer (I didn’t tell her that I would choose her over any others) wouldn’t be a good fit. She said she has boundary issues and I’d easily get attached because she is so similar to herself. I’m starting to see that weak-ish boundaries are a big attractor for me in attachment relationships. That was an ‘a-ha’ moment for me today.

She asked me if I felt like I could talk to someone else about the attachment without it being hard. I said, “Yes.” She said she could understand that it would be hard to talk about attachment stuff with the person you are attached to, especially if you were fearful of getting a negative response. Again she said she isn’t a good poker player or mind reader and feels like she needs to be real with me, not hide her feelings from me because that wouldn’t be honest, helpful for me, or ethical. She doesn’t think she’s one of the best therapists out there, so she tells me she’s not in her own way when I praise her. I can understand that. I am seeing her better now than I ever have before, but it’s taken SO LONG to get here. She’s so different from anyone else I’ve known and it’s hard to read her sometimes. And even though that has been a stumbling block in a sense, I love T's differences and her unique attributes and idiosyncrasies. I’m working on learning how to deal with them, and how to not take her so personally.

She said something about how she feels like she is in my way, and that she needs to get out of the way, only it came out feeling more like, “You’d be better off if you dumped me as your therapist”. That upset me and shut me down and I started to cry again. She doesn’t get it that those comments hurt me because I look up to her so much and care so much for her.
She said she really wants to do what’s best for me. Not just from the standpoint of being my therapist and being professionally or ethically bound to. She mentioned that I had written about how I feel like the only patient she’s ever had that was obsessively attached to her and she said that I am not. I’m just the only current patient. She mentioned another patient that is in the ‘maintenance’ phase and comes once a month that she has worked with through an attachment that was focused on her. She said she was a mother figure for this patient, even though she is closer to T in age than I am. She said it’s a really warm and good relationship. She asked me if I would like her to call this lady and see if she would be willing to talk to me about her and T’s relationship; did I think that would help? I didn’t answer her. I was just so numb and shocked that we were even having this conversation. She asked me to talk to her, so I told her that this was the last thing I had expected today. It just felt like a punch in the gut. I told her I would leave if she wanted me to, but she said that no, that is not what she was trying to do was dump me on someone else. She is just worried that she’s doing me more harm than good.

She asked me what I wanted to do; see someone else, or continue with her? She said she really feels like there’s so much more there than just the attachment that I’m dealing with. That if I focused on the attachment, or on the codependence, that those things could help, but they’re both just pieces of the whole puzzle and I would still have other things to work on. She said that I want to work on the attachment, but then when we approach it I freak out and freeze up and really don’t want to talk about it, so we are really not getting very far with it and it’s causing me more anxiety and stress than it is worth and she doesn’t want that, especially because my meds are still not working and I’m not in a good place. She said schema therapy is her main go-to MO because she knows it works and has used it with so many patients that have similar issues to mine and had positive outcomes. She said she knows I am reluctant to work at it, but that she really feels it will be helpful to me if I will stop resisting it and really try to understand where all of my negative feelings and beliefs about myself come from. She asked if I was willing to give it another try. She told me she understands a lot of what I am dealing with. She mentioned some things from her own past and some similarities that we have in common from our pasts and that she was able to overcome those things and can help me overcome them too.

Then she asked me again if I was willing to give the schema therapy a try and I said I was. This time around I need to work on really applying the behavior changes. That’s the tough part for me, but she said it’s hard because it’s not familiar. She said if you are comfortable while you’re in therapy, you’re not really doing therapy because real therapy stretches you and pushes you outside your comfort zone so you can change and grow. I think I’ve really been resisting all of that. However, I’m really tired of the pain that comes from getting nowhere. I’m tired of being stuck in the attachment and being paralyzed by the fear I feel. Another thing my T said was that she thinks my issue is more one of detachment than attachment. I fantasize about being attached because that is what I really want deep down, but what I actually do is detach and withdraw in these relationships because closeness and intimacy are so unfamiliar to me that they scare me and cause me to ‘run’ from the attachment. She sees my obsession with the attachment as a distraction from the other things I really need to be working on, which are my schemas. She doesn’t think that she and I have ever really had a problem with each other, but that I am really not willing to allow myself to be attached to her because it’s uncomfortable for me and frightening, and abandonment and rejection and defectiveness (and other) schemas spring up in front of me and I just can’t go there with her. I won’t allow the attachment to happen. I think there is definitely some truth to that.

Before we got up to leave she asked me if I was okay. I said yes, and then she said, “Are you REALLY?”, and laughed, because she knows I have said that before and then fallen apart right after leaving her office. I said yes, but I still felt like crap. What a session. And what do you do when you’re time’s up but you’re not feeling great? You go anyway. We stood up and as I was heading to the door she put her arm around my shoulders like usual, then stepped in front of me facing me and grabbed both my shoulders. She said something about things getting better, and asked me if I was willing and ready to trust her with the schema therapy. I told her that I was. Then she gave me a big hug and held me there for about 30 seconds and I held on, too. I didn’t want to let go. I won’t see her again for 3 weeks. She was her usual friendly self as we walked down the hallway together and pointed at the door of the new T she suggested. She had said that if we work through everything and I'm still having attachment issues with her at the end, we can consider having me work through that stuff with the other T if I can't do it with her. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that. At the door she told me to do something fun this weekend. As long as I can distract myself from ruminating on today’s session, I’ll be just fine.


MTF

((((MTF))))) That sounds like such a harrowing experience. It's clear your T cares about you and your progress...but I can't imagine what it must have felt like. It would be like your mom or dad coming up to you and saying, "Well, I love you, but I'm no good for you, so you're better off running away from home and finding a foster parent to stay with." I don't understand how your T could be oblivious to the amount of pain such statements would cause. I wish I had some insight here, but I don't. It sounds like it just hurts...so much. It makes me sad to hear you hurting. I hope someone else here can help with some clarity. In the meantime, I'll help with the (((hugs))).

Wow.... what a powerful session MTF! I agree with the others - it sounds like your T really does care for you and just wants the best for you.

quote:

especially because my meds are still not working and I’m not in a good place.

MTF, I went through six different meds before lucky number seven finally started working. The first med lasted 3 days, but the after effects (negative) lasted over a week. One of the meds made me suicidal and insane, literally! I wanted that med to work so badly that I was trying to lie to my T about how I felt, which of course, she saw right through, and that was the session she insisted I stop taking it, and I signed a release so she could talk to my Pdoc as I was obviously not able to articulate all that med was doing to me. Long story short, this current med that I'm on is a MIRACLE for me. Yes, it was worth going through hell to find it, and my Pdoc and T are both very pleased with how it's helping me deal so much better.

I'm a lightweight when it comes to meds, with the med I'm on, my Pdoc hoped that I'd be able to make it up to 100mg, which is the teen maintenance dose, but at 50mg I started feeling so much better, so I was able to stop there (the kids maintenance dose?) At any rate, we've had to work with some careful balances so as not to upset the rest of my system, and it hasn't been easy. I had allergic reactions to two meds, and bad reactions to 3 meds, and the other one? Well, even 1/4 of the lowest dose was too much for me I'm that sensitive!

quote:

that I am really not willing to allow myself to be attached to her because it’s uncomfortable for me and frightening, and abandonment and rejection and defectiveness (and other) schemas spring up in front of me and I just can’t go there with her. I won’t allow the attachment to happen. I think there is definitely some truth to that.

This hit me square in the forehead. I am so completely attached to my T, and I hate the feeling of being attached. Right now, we're working on exactly that, me being ok with being attached to her. It's healthy, she said, to attach to someone who is helping you deal with the most intimate details of your life. I've been in therapy many times before, but I've never felt this attachment tug, and it is uncomfortable for me. Yesterday morning I had such a moment of angst, I thought I would die if I didn't connect with my T at that moment. Thankfully, I do have a picture of her and I can pull it up in situations like that. A quick glance at her face and my anxiety dissipated and I was able to move on with the rest of my day without issue. Three months ago I would have stewed on the feelings of Friday morning until I saw my T on Monday night, and I would have been miserable the entire weekend.

This is tough work. It sucks a lot. It hurts, it's painful, it's embarrassing, it's shameful, it's miserable. And for me, it's the only way out of the mess I've lived through.

My T told me that only strong people seek therapy, because it takes a very strong person to uncover all our inner secrets and work through them. MTF, sitting through that last session like you did - you could bend steel with your strength!

((((MTF))))