BB,

I think you fit in perfectly here and I would miss you terribly if you went away and didn't come back. I think many of us can relate to these feelings that you are having. I always enjoy reading your posts and replies. I hope that you know that you do matter here and I'm sure I am not the only one that feels that way.

(((HUGS)))

Lovely to see you post - I have missed you here. Everybody fits in I think in a very 'we're all very differerent but have one very important thing in common' sort of way. And I think we all care, if not we wouldn't be posting here, so because of that I'm 100% certain you fit in!! Your posts show you care and if 'it feels all about you' sometimes, well you obviously need to get it off your chest if not you wouldnt be posting about it - simple

Welcome back feathery one,

starfish

BB, not that my opinion counts for much as you hardly know me, but I felt connected to you when I first joined...Your posts were so caring and down to earth and I have missed you whilst you haven’t been around. I am sorry you are in such a bad place at the moment and that you are being so hard on yourself because you are such a kind person and you matter to me.

Sorry can’t say more at the moment, not in the best place myself but am really really happy to see you posting.

Hugs
Butterfly

((((((BB))))))))
It's really important to me that you're here and I have missed you very much (and I haven't even been around myself much.) I have never ever ever never thought that you made it all about yourself. I have gotten so many supportive posts from you and read so many for other people. But while that is important and I understand you being concerned about it, you should also be able to talk about what bothers you. We all go through times where we can give more than we can take and times we take more than we can give and times we just go to ground. The advantage is that here we get how this happens. Besides, have you ever noticed that really self-centered people NEVER question whether they're self-centered?

Pick any other person on this forum and re-read your post thinking about that other person saying it, and see how you'd react. I know what you'd say, because I know you. You'd want them to stay and get whatever support they needed. And that's what we want you to do.

I don't know if you remember the post, Beebee, but you quoted the Sermon on the Mount to me? You have no idea how pivotal it was for me to hear that at that time. I honestly believe that God brought you into my life for a reason. If you leave I may not get to fulfill my purpose in your life. Please don't take that opportunity away from me, nor from the other members here.

And it makes my heart ache to hear of your loneliness and isolation. The way to solve that isn't to go away and be alone.

love, AG

BB,

I'm so happy to see you here. I have missed you a lot! You are always so incredibly supportive of everyone, including me on many occasions. I really honestly, completely value everything you post, because you are insightful and incredibly caring. You have helped me so much so many times. I hear how distressed you are about taking too much, or taking up space in the world (as my T would say).

I only want to say this in a way that helps you feel not so isolated in how you feel and not to diminish anything you're feeling. All I want to say is that this is SO much of what I'm going through in therapy right now. Being invisible and the reasons why I felt/feel the need to be invisible, taking up too much space in the world, having needs, being selfish, being a bother...all of it. It's so hard to believe that I deserve anything at all, but maybe if we keep taking small risks, the kindness of others who give us the things we cannot give to ourselves right now (at least not without feeling completely crappy about it) will rub off on us and we can learn to take up our rightful space in the world.

It's so great that you posted about this, Beebs...thank you for giving us the chance to show you that we do care about you.

Hugs,
K

BB,
I 100% honestly feel that you fit in and belong here. I agree with STRM that most people on here have probably had those same feeling, because I know I have many many times. You’re very right when you say that these are real life challenges too… even though this is an anonymous forum, we are still who we are… does that make any sense at all? What I mean is that however we relate to people in the real world is going to be the same as how we relate to people online. Okay, I’m making no sense right now sorry! Bottom line, I’ve really missed you, I love reading your honest and caring posts, and I hope you stick around

-mac

BB, you DO fit in just fine!! you belong here if YOU want to be here. i have always liked you, and i do hear what you are saying, but know we all can relate. it isn't just YOU. y'no??

i promise!!

i have felt exactly what you are saying, and yes, there are some people here that don't like me, some have told me, others just do, i am sure. and it is that way in life too. i have very thin skin, and that does hurt. right now, i can say it is ok. but there are times, that i have deleted and left the building feeling much as you are saying you feel.

all i can say is, please know, and i am sure i speak for MANY here. you are very much a part of this community, and contribute in very meaningful ways.

sometimes we are more taking, sometimes we are more giving...that is what a relationship IS. i know i ask alot of questions, but, when i do feel i have something helpful to contribute, i pour myself into helping others, too. just like YOU do.

so, please feel that you are important and we all have different 'seasons' we are in, and different aspects we add to the community. and none of us should be measuring and judging the other, in a real relationship, that should not be a factor...there is a normal give and take, y'no???

i wish i could hug you, as i understand and hear your hurt, sweet blackbird!! xxoo jill

Thank you all so much. Just poking my head out...and finding you all are very warm and kind and caring...and welcoming, in spite of my immaturity and unreasonableness and general paranoia.. If only, the rest of the world was as forgiving and non-judgemental as all of you here, I think we'd all be in a better place emotionally... Thanks a lot, and I am sorry if I have been a doubting person at times.

Thinking of all of you...and will continue reading and thinking...for now..

Love,

BB

Aw, BB...I love you and I miss you!!! What a painful place it sounds like you are in right now...questioning whether you belong here, and also feeling like you don't belong anywhere...it is a truly lonely place to be. I have been there BeeBee...spent most of my life there...really really!! I hope you believe me because it's true. I'm so glad you came back to ask your questions...I don't know why you left but I'm always happy to see you. Here are my responses to your questions.

Where do you fit?
Wherever you are you fit just right, my feathered friend. You fill a unique spot on this board just by being YOU. No one else can fill it.

Are you supposed to be here?
I'm just judging by the way you connect with so many people on this board, your terrific insight and help to others, and how so many of us can relate to the concerns you seem to have in your own life, but my guess is a resounding YES (course I want you here for selfish reasons too so maybe I am not to be trusted )

Does it matter to anyone if you are here?
Hmmm...I will allow the pile-up of responses you are getting to answer this question.

Are you just "looking for attention"? Self-centered? Seeking to matter in some big-ish way?
My answer to this might surprise you...but stay with me for a minute and give me a chance to explain, okay? My answer is yes, maybe you are looking for attention. And I would also say, I am looking for attention too. In fact I think we are all looking for some attention in some way. And here's the thing: I think it's totally normal and okay and has partly to do with what we didn't get as kids...and partly to do with the fact that we're human, and wired for relationship, which means we need attention sometimes!

In my case, when I was little, whenever I was feeling scared or sad, especially when my mom was mad at me or when my parents were fighting, and my dad would make a move to comfort me, my mom would step in and say don't do it, she's just "looking for attention". Which implies that it was wrong and bad for me to do that. I still fight that today. Now, wasn't that a mean thing for my mom to say? So was I "bad" for wanting attention? Or was it that my mom had issues that got in the way of giving me, or at least allowing others to give me, the attention I was looking for? I am guessing you got the same wrong message somewhere along the line. I hope you can allow a different kind of message to seep in and change your beautiful birdy heart.

The fact is, little kids NEED attention in order to survive and thrive. I don't know if you ever read my thread on the Circle of Security diagram our couples T shared with us...but it is a nice pictorial representation of what AG explains so well all the time, what kids need to feel secure and whole, and if you look at it, you'll see that it involves a LOT of attention paid to the kid! A secure base from which to explore, and a safe haven where we can return, our parents "paying attention" ALL THE TIME. That is the way it was supposed to be. Kind of staggering in my opinion! I recognize so much of what I still crave on that diagram. In fact, according to our couples T, in a way we are all little kids in "big kid" bodies (more or less). What do you think?

Are people mad at you?
I'm not mad at you and I never have been. I adore you and love to read your posts. I'm still really jazzed about your response to me on the Spouses and Therapy thread about Adam's weeniness. You have no idea how much your explanation truly helped me, BB! Your insight and creativity and kindness and gentleness and intelligence just SHINE through your posts. You take such care to respond so specifically to each person here. BeeBee you are a rare and beautiful bird...you are very special and I really appreciate your being here.

Love and hugs,
SG

Oh Beebs.... I was just saying that I missed you around here and I was so excited to see a post from you!! Of course you should be here and you do belong here and I for one am so happy to see you again. I have missed you. You have been such a help and comfort to me in this hellish place of abandonment I have been living in. And if you feel you need some attention then that is just fine because you give so many of us YOUR attention and your care. Sometimes we need to take from the forum and other times we need to give back. You have always been so giving and caring to those of us in need. I do hope you stay around. Your voice is important and I need to hear it.

Thank you for venturing back.

Big hugs
TN

Now if we can just get Draggers and Monte to come home again....miss you guys too!!

Beebee

First of all, can I say thank you? I could have written what you wrote about myself… I too wonder a lot of the same questions…

Let me answer what you asked from my perspective about you…

quote:

So, hello...everyone...I have been taking a little self-imposed break...and I'm kinda confused. Where do I fit in here, on this forum,

I think you “fit” perfectly. Can I ask, is there anything in particular that makes you feel like you don’t fit? Or anything that would help you feel like you do fit in more? Hmmmm or do you mean not “if” you fit but “where” do you fit? If that’s the question – where do any of us fit? I dunno. But I do think you do fit in here. Just as much as anyone else.

quote:

does it matter to anyone if I am or am not...[QUOTE]
YES!!! I have missed you terribly. I’m anyone! I think it does matter! You matter! [QUOTE]and am I "just looking for attention?"
I don’t think so at all. I don’t get that impression from you at all. I think you seek and give support and have posted to sort out tough stuff. I don’t get any sense that you are an attention seeking person – especially not in any way that is bad at all. And… can I play “devil’s advocate” a little… if you are “just looking for attention,” dang girl, you have done a lot of good by what you posted in the past – attention or not. When you share your struggles, it helps me, and you have also really been so kind and sweet to others. I have a hard time even entertaining the possibility it is some attention seeking thing, but even if it is (And I DO NOT think it is) then, I’m all for it. (does this make any sense?) What I do know is you have a very genuine and sweet and real and authentic heart. Can I ask why do you ask this? [QUOTE] Are people mad at me? Is that people are mad at me or is it that, don't care if I exist, or all that just my imagination?

Can I ask, why do you ask if people are mad at you? Why do you wonder if people care if you exist or not?

I’m not mad at you. Technically, I’m part of “people.” If someone is mad, well, it doesn’t include me… Can I say something a little tongue in cheek that a friend who cared deeply about me said to me? Don’t do my thinking for me. Have I said I’m mad at you? No. I’m not. Have I said I don’t care you exist? No. I actually have missed you a lot. Did I not communicate that to you well, probably.

Maybe someone is mad or doesn’t care. But unless they tell you – try to not assume. And remember those that do really care deeply about you – and I do know for sure that there are many here that do.

Are you mad at me?

quote:

Or am I some kind of terribly self-centered person who thinks she has to "matter" in some big-ish way?

We all want to matter. It’s important to matter. Oh please don’t judge yourself for wanting to matter. You matter!

quote:

Not to be invisible...or even just normal...why should that be such a problem?

Beebee… ah, I actually wrote something very similar to a group of friends, a support group last week, a group that ended suddenly and somehow I felt like I didn’t matter anymore. I wanted to be seen, known, normal, included…and I’ll even say it, loved.
It’s not a problem to want those things. It’s NORMAL. It can be very hard to get those needs met. Is there something people, or I, or both, here on the forum, can do, that would help you feel more… like you mattered?

quote:

I guess, these are my issues in real life- being played out here... I think I should stay away...because otherwise it will just be, me, me!...but I also feel so very lonely...and I don't fit in, anywhere.

Can I disagree? Real life issues do play out here. It’s a good place to practice dealing with them. Just because real life issues such as these are playing out here is not a good reason to run, imho. If you do, I’ll respect that, I’ll respect your decision and freedom to run. I will miss you. And I will be honest that I think it would be running for the wrong reason.
I can relate so much with what you are feeling. Every day, EVERY STINKING DAY, of my life I feel out of place. I dunno where I fit. But if I never show up anywhere – then where will I be? Alone.

I believe you fit here. I believe you have the freedom as well to not be here... and if you leave, I would miss you I believe you matter. I know all of this to be true.

I am glad you posted this. I’m glad you posted at all! I have been wondering where you have been and missing you and hoping you are ok. I’d love to read more about what’s up, why you are wondering these things, anything you want to post and talk about or share... if when you are ready. no pressure of course.

Please know you are cared about a lot.

~jane

p.s. if I have said anything that is off or seems wrong or just accidentially offends - please forgive me... I do tend to stick my foot in my mouth often... but i do not apoligize for saying you do matter, you do fit, and you are missed - by me!

Bebe, I am SO proud of you for coming forward with your fears and doubts and checking them out with people.

And yes, I hope you know this already - I'm so very glad you're here.

J

The following post is quite brutally honest...and very scary for me to share...read at your own risk!
I truly believe that each and every one of you here is so precious and kind and truly good...yet I still am struggling deeply with my own issues...I find myself lurking around on here...wishing for friendship or to alleviate such terrible inner lonliness- and finding friendship in all of you, here...yet, hiding always my "true self." You see..I am a member of a religion, that is quite often and openly disliked...sometimes, (once in a very blue moon) it has even happened to some small extent on here. If I were to openly stand up for the beliefs of my religion which would seriously challenge and outrage so many...I believe it would open up a landmine of confrontation and disagreement, hurt feelings and bitter misunderstandings...along with, potentially some really amazing and good dialog and real insight. But this is not really the forum for that kind of thing. Yet, this is such an integral part of who I am, that I find it impossible to keep quiet, here and there, at times. The things that I believe, are truly believed *in love* and because of belief in intrinsic value of each human person- at their core- and not with an attitude of hatred or intolerance or judgement. Yet, it is not often seen that way in my world. It is generally, a very difficult thing to see and be open to. In fact I have suffered quite a lot of abuse as a child because of many of those specific religious beliefs...and so getting into a situation that involves me speaking my truth, can very seriously trigger me. So, I am afraid. Very. Because I find myself in this situation, so often in my real life, and here, too...just from time to time...where I feel obligated to say what I beleive, in truth, in love, and respect- but that the fallout feels tremendous ly tremendously, scary to me. For example, SG- you say that you have liked my post on the Spouses thread...and I am so glad of it! and AG- you liked the quote, which was heartfelt- truly- yet I have posted in fear and trembling...and there are other issues, much more *hot button* that, should I read, I feel I should comment on...out of genuine concern, that I believe, from my heart, in all honesty, it is *with love* -...but may hurt others badly anyway- or, if I do -or do not- say anything, I end up horribly triggered either way-(I'm talking panic-stricken fear)...I really do not want to get into specifics, and am asking people out of mercy, to allow me, not to get into more specifics at this point. But, what to do? You are my friends...my pals, my chums, my therapy crowd! I really miss each one of you, who post on here. So my leaving, has had very little to do with feeling like you guys "aren't doing right by me" even though it might apparently sound like that...-in fact, it's quite the contrary, and I am amazed at the level of acceptance and care that you-all of you- are showing each day, one to another and to me, too...yet...I really *do* feel...not because of any of you, or anything wrong here or with anyone...no- but in *myself*...that *I* do not belong here. Since honesty in being who I am...seems so, just, impossible, and just simply socially inappropriate- and so potentially hurtful, and rife with misunderstands, all on a forum that isn't for that to begin with- all the way around it....I haven't quite figured out, how to *be who I am* without neccessarily having to say whatever pops into my head, which usually relates directly back to my *entire* world view...and this is beliefs I have suffered quite a lot to preserve in myself, and I'm not likely to give them up all that easily. It's really, really confusing. So I just want to say...thank you..so very much, all of you, for being just so kind, and such good people...to me- and for your acceptance of me, in all of this..but that I am afraid...if I hang around I will offend. I've seen even just today, a post that I am so afraid to respond to, but that I want so much to offer some of what I think to this person...yet I *know* I just *know* it could not be accepted...and I have been hurt badly by some generalizations that are often made about my faith that aren't really accurate representations of *the whole.* Yet I feel so powerless, completely powerless to speak up, to disagree... and when I have, I felt too terrified for words, afterwards. Triggered, I guess. It's strange. Yet in not speaking up, I am equally triggered in that as a child I was also led to believe I had responsibility to speak the truth as I see it, wherever...under some kind of terrible threat that I won't go into right now. So either way...I'm kinda..screwed.

So I guess..I am just putting this out there, to see...what can happen? What will happen? Will I die? Will this kill me? Will anyone be able to understand, and forgive...and be merciful to me...I have so much to learn about relationships...some of you have gone out of your way to teach me, and help me...and I am really grateful for that gift. But I remain a very scared Blackbird...but one who really does care about this group of lovely people, called the PsycheCafe.. I hope this will be explaining myself a bit better than when I have left so unexplained, before...I guess, that is all I can say for now, except-

Much love, peace,

BB

BB -
I only have a moment before I have to run - but I wanted to say, wow, thanks so much for sharing.

I read (and rarely) post on a forum about a health problem I have. There, they have a section just devoted for spiritual/relgious stuff. I don't know if that's something we could have here - or even if it would quite be the kind of space or provide the freedom... to share... more about this... that you are wondering about and looking for or scared to try?

I do know there are many people from a lot of different backgrounds and faiths and beliefs here - much like much of life.

I say, give it a try. Be respectful, and own it as your own thoughts. Allow others to take it or leave it - share it in the context of you... and I think it will be ok. I read stuff I disagree with here, and I leave it. I read stuff I agree with too! I'm intentionally being vague about where I stand specifically on relgiion or spirtual things right now in this response - because I think this goes for anyone of any faith or spirtual belief system or thinking. If someone shares something about that different than what I believe... I think about how I would want to give them freedom to share it, and how I would want them to share it without feeling like I have to agree - much of wich is up to me, and how I take it in, and part of which is up to the poster, and how they share it.

If it's really on your heart and mind a lot - I say try it. Go for it. Share what is on your mind and heart and allow people to take it or leave it and it's ok. imho. And know that if people don't agree - it's not you. oh, how do I say this?

I know it's scary to think of proposing disagreement - who likes conflict? but disagreement doesn't always = conflict. Again, there are things posted here I don't agree with on this forum, and much that I do.

Learning how to work through disagreement, or just accept disagreement is a huge relationship skill (one I am not great at by any means) and maybe a good one to try out here?

quote:

but that I am afraid...if I hang around I will offend. I've seen even just today, a post that I am so afraid to respond to, but that I want so much to offer some of what I think to this person...yet I *know* I just *know* it could not be accepted...and I have been hurt badly by some generalizations that are often made about my faith that aren't really accurate representations of *the whole.*

I think what you say here is key. If you share, what you say may not be accepted. Which is ok. People have that freedom to say "no thanks." But when they attack a religion or a spiritual belief system... that's imposing in a different way. It takes a lot of respect for it to work. And a lot of owning our own stuff and allowing for disagreement. Like you would have to allow others to disagree, and they would too - with no attacking. Just sharing what YOU believe for you, is not attacking, it's just sharing what you believe. same for others. attacking or imposing is wrong from either direction.

and of course this is all so easy to say, and much harder to do.

but I say, if it is really on your heart and mind, and really holding you back, give it a try - maybe a small step - see what happens. try it out, learn. it's ok to make mistakes and try and *accidentally* offend - it's not desired, but it's... ok...

and remember, we care about you. regardless.

I think it is also really wise of you to think through, as you are about how triggery this might be for you. Is it triggery and scary to hold back or to risk or to be stuck somewhere in between? in the end, please do take care of yourself. we care about you as you. I'm so sorry people have trashed your faith - that always sucks and never is cool. we can disagree without tearing each other apart. I'm so sorry you have been hurt so much about that...

I hope you stay and keep working through this. I'm proud of you posting - more and more - about this and what's up for you. thank you.

ok... now I really gotta run... just really wanted to say that.

p.s. and you and others may disagree with me on what I have said - and that's ok! you can take or leave my input. It's from a pretty mixed up me as is.

Thank you very much, Jane...you are so kind.

I just really need to be clear, that nobody here has trashed my faith. That does happen in my life, yet- not here. Here, it's just that even when some chance small comment is made, I tend to take it out of all proportion and also get really scared, triggered or whatever, too. This whole issue...faith, belief..religion..speaking up...it's just so massively triggery for me, I can't think straight really a lot around it. It's so weird. I can't really explain it. I think it all comes back to...me being terrified, just terrified, of being disliked. Especially by "the group." Being disliked, especially on issues of faith or belief = deep, sinister danger and fear...total rejection and isolation...in my mind. Overcoming this (continually speaking up with what I think, believe) might take more guts than I have at present...it's not easy to do even when no danger is perceived...for any of us, as you so wisely pointed out. It's just that the combination of my particular belnd of very provocative beliefs (nothing dangerous, honest!) combined with a general social attitude that is not open to those beliefs, and that fact that those beliefs tend to really inflame people, by their nature- and that many people are rightly inflamed since the beliefs are generally not presented very thoughtfully or truthfully or lovingly...and my triggers about it all, since I approached my faith just from such a judgemental position as a child, having been raised that way- and suffering years and years of the fallout from that position, from the abuse of the people that I inflamed by having these unthought out seemingly judgemental positions ...and then being ever-so-gently led through the desert...and still hanging out there...to find...my positions still hold true...but from a completely, entirely, unregognizably different angle...and the confusion and tenderness of that place, so new..and that this is not a forum for debate, but rather, unconditional support, which I want to give- even with my misunderstood and inflaming positions- and that I could and probably have, hurt people because it's difficult, emotionally intricate stuff to explain...all of this combines to make it really, really unsafe feeling. I don't know...I guess I am just trying to figure out...where do I stand in this world...who am I...where do I fit? Does it matter? Does what I say or do, make a difference, anyway? Should what I think, believe and feel remain unspoken? Are there certain places where it should remain unspoken? How does that work? How dishonest is that, if at all?
Thank you Jane.

BB

Thank you, Mac...I feel honored to know you, too. It's so good that I haven't offended you...and you are right, there are many lovely Christians here...but no one should feel left out. We can all respect eachother. I am a Christian. a Catholic, to be specific. My problems seem to be, that in my own mind the whole issue is so inflamed and sensitive, that I get really spooked just saying that. Even what I just said, above. I feel immediately and hugely threatened...not by our differences, but by sharing mine...and I can't tell why... it's just so strange. I feel like what I just said will have immediate and drastic consequences. I need to ponder that a bit more, maybe.

It's so good to know you, Mac...

BB

Hi BB,

I'm sorry I can't say much right now...I just wanted to say that I think religion is such a touchy subject, because it really has the potential to reveal so much about a person. If someone so chooses, they can form an entire opinion about someone's personality simply from their religious preference, because they can use the schema of that religion. All of that is just to say that I hope you don't feel weird or whatever for feeling so threatened by being open about your religion. I think it's great, because you are showing us who you truly are.

Much love, BB.

Tahnk you Kashley... this is really hard for me. I appreciate your explanation, too, it makes a lot of sense...of course people can and often do, do that...I guess that is what is meant by passing judgement. I think that is a struggle all of humanity must deal with.

Much love to you, too...been missing you, girl.

Hi Blackbird. It's good to see you back.

Oh dear, I'm guessing it was probably my post that triggered you today. Yes, I was raised Catholic, and yes, I referred to Catholicism as "unpleasant". That's just my opinion of the religion, not Catholics in general. I have many good friends and family who are still active in the church; I don't have a problem with the individuals. So if you are worried that I would be offended by anything, don't be. I am thick skinned when it comes to religion. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell or my eyes will roll right out of my head.

And believe me, no group is more despised than Atheists, so I've got you beat there.

eek. eek. eek. Hi, echo... it's really good to see you too. Here goes...gosh this is really really hard. Echo. really hard. I want to say, that why, you must have been badly hurt by some "Catholics," (as I have also been), to think assume or joke about, that I would ever tell you, you are going to hell...never. * here comes the hard part* That is not to say, that I do not believe in such a thing. It's just, I think we understand the idea of it differently.
I am also wondering if the religion is unpleasant, or if the people who are often encountered within who must have said such things like "you are going to hell for this or that..." or done very unpleasant things- are unpleasant? Your post really broke my heart... to want to pray the meditative prayer of one religion, but feel guilty for that, and instead take up the meditative prayer of a different religion...says that someone took something precious away from you- and that is so unfair, and undeserved.

Also, I had no idea that atheists are despised...I'm sorry for that. You certainly don't deserve to be despised. As for me, I have never met an atheist that I didn't really like an awful lot- (well, except for one, but he was just mean and scary) in spite of our differing views, I often find, I have more in common with many atheists than lots of Christians I know in my real life. who can be also, mean and scary. And I don't capitalize Christian and not atheist out of any disrespect or sense of superiority...it's just that atheist is not a religion. (Or is it?)

Thanks for being so nice, and brave, too, Echo. Now I think, I am going to go back into hiding for a little while.

BB

Beebs... I just want to say that I'm Catholic too.. although not a very good practicing one much to my husband's dismay! I really don't know what I believe these days. But I need you to know that I don't care what religion you follow... you are a wonderful person and I care very much for and about you and that is what is most important.

I understand your urge to hide but I hope you come out again really soon and read my new post on finding a new T

I miss you when you are gone.

TN

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
Your post really broke my heart... to want to pray the meditative prayer of one religion, but feel guilty for that, and instead take up the meditative prayer of a different religion...says that someone took something precious away from you- and that is so unfair, and undeserved.

There's no need for broken hearts over, this. Really! I think most of us look for something familiar when we're stressed; that's all this is. (Which is how recovering alcoholics end up sitting in bars, and victims of abuse seek out new abusive relationships once they are free. They are all gravitating towards what is familiar.) It's not a longing for God or religion or a wish that I could still be Catholic. My "crisis of faith" happened at an early age, not because of anything anyone did, but because I don't believe in God. I just don't. For me, it just isn't logical or necessary.

Buddhism isn't a religion. Some Buddhists have religious views, and some are atheist. Buddhist philosophy doesn't have anything to do with deity worship. It's about relieving suffering through compassion. Just like therapy! I suppose buddhist philosophy has become my replacement for therapy, not a replacement for Catholicism.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
I don't capitalize Christian and not atheist out of any disrespect or sense of superiority...it's just that atheist is not a religion. (Or is it?)

No, it's not. I only capitalized it for emphasis or something, but I guess that's what itallics are for.

quote:

I think it's all a matter of accepting the gift someone is giving you and taking what you can from it. If someone says to me 'I'll pray for you' (and let's say they are Catholic, or Christian, or anything) to me I know they are sending me positivity. It makes NO difference to me what vehicle they are using to share their love.

Exactly. Well put, Deepfried.

As long as everyone agrees to speak for themselves and not tell others what to believe, I don't see any reason why religion can't be mentioned here. I hope this issue doesn't keep you in hiding, BB.

Hello Beebs - I’m so pleased you’ve taken the risk of posting a thread, it’s nice to have you back!

Sounds like you’re in a really confused and painful and frightening place at the moment. I admit that I don’t really understand what it is that’s screwing you up - it sounds to me like you’re struggling very much between needing to be your authentic self by expressing your faith through the things you say and do, and feeling that by bringing your own spiritual beliefs into relationships with others you are somehow damaging offending or hurting them?

Don’t really know what to say on the subject of religion and faith - I’m a faithless sort myself and often envy those who have faith. But I think there’s such a genuine understanding and acceptance by the people on this forum of the way spiritual beliefs inform who we are, that you couldn’t find a safer place to risk being your true self than here

So you ‘fit’ here whether you believe that yourself or not. I hope you can come to realize that actually, you do fit here and always have.

Hugs to you Beebs (((( BB ))))

LL

You guys really are amazing. The sense that I am getting from all of your wonderful posts, is that this is really not that big a deal to everybody else...and it's me who is making it into one...what a huge relief!

Yet, I still have a personal struggle and fear...a fear of alienating, being disliked- or hurting and making some people I really like a lot and care about on here, who feel really differently from me dislike me! which logically, I know isn't the worst thing in the worl, but for some reason to me really does feel very much like the worst thing in the world. It is just really scary for me. That's where I am...thank you so much for your wonderful posts. Echo, I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you. I guess that's another thing that can happen...a person can get the meaning wrong by the way the printed words sounds or looks. It just feels really really sad to me to have something very specific that is so personally precious and healing to me, compared by someone else that matters to me, to alchoholism or abusive relationship...I know you are saying that is just your experience, and I respect that...but it still just really hurts for some reason. Just as perhaps it might hurt you a bit-or at least, annoy you- if I were to say, just for example- that yoga and the practices of buddhism are damaging and I have a problem with it or it's a bunch of hooey...does that make any sense? I just am finding my reactions here are really emotional and triggering...and while I really think it's helpful to explore all of this with you guys...since you are such a caring bunch...I also find it's just a such landmine of triggers for me...and I'm wondering and questioning now, whether I should in fact try to navigate it, or if I should avoid it all together...I'm not asking anybody to make that decision for me...and your reassurances are wonderful to me...really wonderful..especially from those here who feel differently than I do!

ok, gotta go...I just wanted to thank all of you for your wonderful posts...now I am off to read TN's...

Love,

BB

BB - You sound so tormented by everything that you believe. That must be so hard. I have to say that I don't think religion should be that hard or painful. Everyone has their own beliefs and that is fine with me. If everyone believed and did the same thing, how boring this world would be!

For me, I have missed you here. I did try to pm you but it wouldn't let me. So, I am glad you're here. I know how you feel, being lonely and so afraid to speak your mind. If it makes you feel any better, you can say anything you want to me and I'll take it with a grain of salt. I have an open mind and I do try to let everyone be who they are. It isn't easy sometimes, but you have to do that or you will be alone. How else would all of us get along together?

Please stay, and try not to be so hard on yourself.

Smiley

BB,
I have missed you so much. Your posts make my day. You know when to be serious and you know when to use humor. That is a gift my friend. It doesn't matter what your religion is or what you believe in. It's how you treat people that counts. You do belong here and you have many people that care about you. I'm sorry you are struggling so much but I hope you continue to post so we help you like you have helped many others.

PG

Beebs, it's so lovely to see you here actually saying what's on your mind about this, and listening, and staying with this conversation, when it is such a hard one for you. It's really inspiring. Thank you!

I feel like spiritual and religious freedom - including the freedom to not believe - is one of the great blessings of individuality. Thinking about what we do and don't believe and why and how to implement it is a life's work - it's about the meaning we make of our lives. It might seem weird or inconsistent, but I love and cherish my own atheism, and I also love to support other people in their belief systems when I can - when it seems consistent with supporting the person themselves.

Because I think the serious questions of our belief systems can often be where we come face to face with ourselves in the most challenging ways. Of course it is possible to use any given religion and atheism too as an escape, an avoidance, or a way of perpetuating hurt against the self or others. But sorting that out is the challenge, and it's a deeply personal and honorable one. This challenge you have, Beebs, of how to be true to yourself in community with others of different beliefs - well, it's a good one.

Ok, I'm not sure I'm really adding much here - just want to say it's really nice to see these things that would ordinarily lurk under the surface instead being talked about honestly.

love,
Jones

I want to express, that I am grateful for your honest, thoughtful and accepting responses to me...

I also need to express...my absolute, unequivocal, and unashamed (!) belief that Truth- exists. And that we are all on a quest to find it...but that the Truth- is real, and unchangable. We cannot cahnge the Truth. The truth can only change us, and bring us into closer union with itself- Himself. True open-mindedness, among other things involves letting go of a lot of our pre-conceived notions...about Christianity- and Catholicism- as *interpreted for us* by popular culture and the media. And even, by some in the church itself. Christianity is so much more than it is protrayed...anyone who seeks the truth will find it. I believe the Truth is much more than a theoretical concept, or "whatever we think it is." I believe the Truth- is a person without a body- who cannot be described, quantified, contained- or ever fully understood with our finite minds...the "Uncaused Cause" -and who even can decide to have a body- in Christ- but is indescribably, Beauty and Love. Everything we would ever wish for- and more. Our "God-shaped hole" I desire Him. and I can't keep quiet about Him, because he is small, and enormous, and ever-so-quiet- and speaking so loudly to us in all of creation- and lovely, and Love- beyond our imaginings. It's just not so simple as "respecting others differences." If only, if it could be that simple. But how could I not wish to share? My thoughts...beliefs, yet with respect, since I feel it would be the ultimate selfishness, not to? At the risk of seeming like "I have all the answers" (ha, ha) or I am judgemental and dislikeable... I must say- the "scandal of the Cross" entrances me. I would rather be a complete fool for Christ than loved by men! I fear terribly being disliked...it is my "one fear" yet- I really would. This is where I am...it becomes quite radical for me. That I can't seem to just behave on a public, non-religious forum. I must be insane. I would drag every single one of you along with me, especially the atheists- if I could. I really would love to convert every one of you- to the idea of His mercy- and His right to have mercy. Now-

do you think I belong here- ??

BB

BB
I do believe that you belong here. You're not refusing to care for anyone else here if they disagree with you nor do you want to take away from them their right to agree or disagree with you. God himself respects that in us, who are we as a human to do less? You express these beliefs because you believe this to be the most important thing a person can grapple with. Knowing the TRUTH for what He is. You speak from a desire for other people to know the truth that you know because you believe that this is the way to fulfillment. How does this make you any different from the rest of us? We each express what we believe to be the truth in the hope that it might help others. I appreciate you expressing yours (Full disclosure: I happen to agree with what you're saying, so it may be a mite easier for me to hear it. ) But as long as you are respectful of other people's right to not agree with you or believe the same things you believe, you do nothing wrong.

Besides, I've never seen you be anything but loving and supportive with other people. And I believe that love and support grow directly out of your beliefs and you're relationship with God.

AG

Dear Bebe,

I don't know, my dear, I'm hesitant to say anything because I know you feel a conflict, and I'm not sure I'm reading the conflict right, and I don't want to misread it. You are wonderfully passionate and inspired and articulate in your speaking about your beliefs, and I find it quite beautiful because it is such a full, body and soul expression of love and of *you*, the way you are.

I see no problem - no not-fitting-in with you coming from that deeply loving perspective, or saying what you say from that perspective, or being so fully alive in your beliefs and your articulation of them. But I don't know - is it difficult for you to be close to others here in this place if they don't share your beliefs the way you believe them? Is that the conflict? Is there hurt for you if we don't? Do you feel the need to persuade/proselytise? Are you scared of hurting if you do, and letting us down, letting your beliefs down if you don't? Where does it leave you if you *can't* convert someone or someones? If we love you for who you are but don't pick up your beliefs? Is this then a safe place for you - safe inside yourself in terms of what you have and haven't done? I know this is tricky stuff - really and truly - people have wars over this kind of stuff! But we have such strong communication here, and such good grounds for talking about this with relative safety. I don't believe we will go to war.

I loved what you wrote once about people's paths to God being their own, and that none of us can know which path is going to end up there faster. Is that belief one that can keep you safe here?

Love,
Jones

Yes Bebee,
YOU BELONG HERE!

..as much as the atheist, the buddhist, the protestand, the jew, the agnostic and so on..
I am so glad to see that you expressed this, (and lovely to see the process that lead up to the latest post, so much fear that you have obviously fought against! Great bebee!) because i understand this is very important to you- its a great opportunity to learn that you are fully accepted here, no matter what your beliefs are. Not only that: as you see, meny people also relates to you. You are definitly not so alone as you might have thought. And even better (in a way) some people might disagree, BUT still: you are so welcome and accepted here! The disagreements are not dangerous, nor are they going to threaten you in any ways. We are all here t understand ourselfs, and others and this forum s truly a good and safe place to open up.

I hope you keep feeling safe enough to post and to slowly learn that you dont have to hide yourself, and this particular important "part" of yourself here on forum. I know its hard, i am actually still having problems about similar stuff, talking about my personal beliefs, accepting them and be proud, despite that i am 4 years into the theology studium. Yep, its very human and natural that what we hold as the most important and essential- we`ll hesitate to open up about, in fear to be judged/ misunderstood, rejected and etc..

I actually dare to say that i think we (patients) are so aware of the strenght it takes to open up about voulnerable stuff, from being in therapy we know very well the risk it takes..- and therefor it makes us more tolerant and able to accept both the things we dont agree, and both see the importants that also those things are worth looking at with great curiousity and a desire to understand. Just the way we want to be meet in therapy by our T`s: accepted for those we are.

all the best beebee

Thanks for saying I belong, you guys. I really appreciate it...but this is really a big issue for me...where do I fit? It's not that I think- "these guys don't/won't like me as I am" not really. Well that is a fear I struggle with, too, but it's kind of outside of this current problem. The current problem has more to do with what Jones has said, quoted below:

quote:

But I don't know - is it difficult for you to be close to others here in this place if they don't share your beliefs the way you believe them? Is that the conflict? Is there hurt for you if we don't? Do you feel the need to persuade/proselytise? Are you scared of hurting if you do, and letting us down, letting your beliefs down if you don't? Where does it leave you if you *can't* convert someone or someones? If we love you for who you are but don't pick up your beliefs? Is this then a safe place for you - safe inside yourself in terms of what you have and haven't done?

It's that...is this a safe place for me inside myself in terms of what I have and haven't done? thanks for hearing me so well, Jones-even though, I'm not sure about it- or the nature of it, myself. Because this applies to my entire social life, and not just this forum. It has a monumental effect on my ability to function normally in society. And I strongly suspect that my approach to it is influenced greatly by the dysfunctional ways I was taught to deal with it in the past. (i.e.- stuff it down people's throat's, and then when they do not accept you, be proud, as if that makes you somehow a better person- and then, retire and isolate as a result of not finding acceptance...or only hang with others who beleive *exactly* the same way you do...which nobody will ever find...) I have come to recognize that this is NOT the Christian message or way. It's not that I want to take my beliefs and shove them down people's throats...not at all. Nor is it, entirely- that I do not want to proselytise... in fact, I do! (Within the bounds of respectful dialogue, of course!) My biggest problem seems to be in speaking up when I see an unjust or untruthful representation in the world. It's not that I do not respect the paths that others are on...nor is it that I think every path anyone decides to take will ultimately lead them towards Love and Truth and Beauty. There are levels...obviously a loving Buddhist is a lot closer to embracing the truth than someone who is completely apathetic...(or so it would seem to our finite minds.) So speaking what I beleive- it's a balancing act...and I am not a particularly balanced person at present. The urge to avoid all of this is powerfully strong in me because of my triggers. I am not currently feeling all that capable of having the discussion that I seem to actually now be having...To run away from it and isolate seems the easiest and even justifiable (i.e.- I will hurt and alienate less people with my rather unpracticed and prone to foot insertion approach) path...but I know in my heart that is not the answer, either.
Like Jones says...wars have been started over this kind of thing. How much of that is because of misunderstanding and how much is because of diametrically opposed views? But there is also, that any Christian, however well-intentioned, who goes to war with their views...is not heeding the words of the Gospel. And where...where am I...where do I fit with what most in today's world would view as my extreme, radical views about the value of each person's life? I can understand why some Christians only hang out with other Christians... it kind of leaves you off the hook...you no longer find yourself in these terribly awkward situations where if you say what you think you will often be hated for it! (I'm really not saying you guys, I'm talking more about...well, for example, one of my own family members, who I become physically afraid of when I speak my Christian views to her- or some other friends I have that know how I feel, but I really tiptoe and avoid a lot of the discussions that come up- and then feel horribly guilty for it, as if I have betrayed my best friend) Then there is the whole issue, that it can easily become for me an intellectual platform...there is much in my faith that is fodder for intellectualism, and I can easily get caught up in that and use it as a way to say to the world at large "see, look here, I am not just some simple Christian- this is science, and philosophy.. too!" Which ends up being really more a service to myself than to others, because the only thing that will ever really convert, is Love...that is not to say that intellectual analysis cannot be in service to love...it's just that it shouldn't end up being in service to my own projected self-image.

Ultimately I see it like this: The Truth is something real. We are all more or less, incorporated into it, by what we do and the choices we make, and what we believe. If I am with someone who insists that the sun revolves around the earth, for example, and I happen to know through intense study, that this fact is not true...I will feel a certain obligation to make this person aware of what I have learned. Is this worng? I do not wish to be so open-minded that ideas rush through my mind and nothing stays inside...on the other hand, I do not wish to seem as if I have all answers or some "special knowledge" or am somehow "better" than anyone else. Far from it. It gets confusing.

Thanks for giving me a place to say all of this...I appreciate each person's kindness to me and welcoming. I've carefully read every one's responses and appreciate and value each one of them...and each one of you. I just want all of you to know that.

Bebe

If you all are hoping to convert anyone with this thread, you're kinda going about it in a weird way. This pretty much makes my case about religion being "unpleasant". So much fear and angst and pain over worrying about other people's souls. It makes no sense to me.

Isn't it more important that people are good, live good lives, live according to their values, and die feeling that their lives made a difference to the world? If I die tomorrow and find out there is a heaven (because if there is a hell it is reserved for people like rapists and murders imo), then God and I will have a good laugh over it, I'll say, "Oops, guess I was wrong!", and that'll be the end of it. What, is he going to smite me or something for being a good person that just happens to think he is fiction?

Monte- it's so good to see you. I was wondering if this thread would rout you out of hiding. I really can't agree...that I'm a step ahead or behind *anyone* else on this treacherous path...least of all you. I am just trying to navigate as best I can...the input I'm getting here is amazing towards that end. Much of this is about me trying to figure out me, and how I fit into the world with all of this...since I have some considerable baggage that is kind of intricately wound up in my beliefs.

You needn't be horrified, dear. That is no wrong, since, ours is not to be horrified. That, imo, would indicate the possession of "special knowledge." God is the only possessor of that knowledge...according to my beliefs. I really must say that. And I see myself as more or less...lost...but attempting to be found, attempting to let myself be found, I guess. I am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling" -and in spite of my dislike for comparisons, I can't help but think St. Paul was a lot farther down the path than I am, when he said that. But, gosh, I've gotten to the point where comparisons of who is more virtuous than who no longer make any sense at all...because I used to think I was so good, and so saved...and then I thought I was so evil, and completely damned...and now I think...I am, and everyone is, and God sees us exactly where we are, and loves us with an everlasting love..**and will assist.** And that's all that really matters. I would be terrified at this point to deem *anyone* else as closer, or further away from the ultimate goal which is really love- than I am...eek. But I do not say that to disregard what you are saying. Only to say where I myself am at with it. Perhaps we get into a difference of biblical interpretation matter, which could also become problematic and hurtful. I fear that as well. As a Catholic, I do not beleive that I or anyone else is "definitively saved" or "definitively lost" simply because- how can we judge that matter, since we did not create, nor are are we all-knowing, or all-merciful?

I just have to protest that, I am not an inspiration. God is really, the only inspiration for any of us. Even if we can't realize that fact most of the time because that light will blind us.

Let's see how brave I am when this forum is no longer anonymous...kwim?

Gosh, I've really missed you. thanks for stepping in.

BB

echo...we crossposted...I just wanted to let you know that.

hm, but it seems like my last post could be directed at what you have just said too. It is true, that this thread was really started as an attempt for myself-with all of these strong beliefs- to sort out perhaps, a little more...hwere I fit in on this forum- and in the world in general. That is not to say that I have no desire to share my faith. I admit openly that I do.

Yes, faith causes a lot of pain. That is my argument, when people say that faith is just something people created "in order to comfort themselves." No, I do not think that scores of martyrs would testify to that theory. Faith is often cold comfort. Often it is a desert experience. It can be terrifying...and it is the biggest challenge a person who is truthful about it will ever face. However, it does give someone something to live for. Only you can decide if it's worth it to you, of course. And ours is not to judge anothers choice...one way or the other. I would challenge you openly to think, perhaps, what kind of preconceived notions and judgements you yourself may hold against those who believe differently? Do you think that all of us think God will smite you if you do not believe? and isn't lumping all Christians together under the roof of "judgementalism" kind of...er...judgemental?
Just some thoughts...not intending to hurt...

I may well be in over my head here. I don't pretend that I'm not in fact, drowning.

BB

quote:

It makes sense to me that you - or anyone that doesn't hold to a set of beliefs - would find such conversation annoying or even offensive.

I never said I was annoyed or offended. Just puzzled. None of this seems logical to me.

quote:

I would challenge you openly to think, perhaps, what kind of preconceived notions and judgements you yourself may hold against those who believe differently? Do you think that all of us think God will smite you if you do not believe? and isn't lumping all Christians together under the roof of "judgementalism" kind of...er...judgemental?

I don't recall lumping all Christians together or labelling them as judgemental. I said I found religion to be "unpleasant", for the reason that it appears to cause more pain than it alleviates (again reinforced in your last post blackbird).

And for the record, I never said I "felt guilty" about a strange urge I had to pray the rosary; only that it didn't make sense to me.
By leaving Catholicism (and Christianity in general) in the dust, I hopefully have escaped a lifetime of ridiculous guilt for things that are not my fault.

quote:

Isn't it more important that people are good, live good lives, live according to their values, and die feeling that their lives made a difference to the world? If I die tomorrow and find out there is a heaven (because if there is a hell it is reserved for people like rapists and murders imo), then God and I will have a good laugh over it, I'll say, "Oops, guess I was wrong!", and that'll be the end of it. What, is he going to smite me or something for being a good person that just happens to think he is fiction?

Here are the deep questions, that everybody is asking in their hearts...well, and yes, if you are a good person who follows their values, and isn loving your neighbor... then, I think, probably you are right, and you and God will have a good laugh. My personal struggle happens to be, that I find in my faith the added challenge and dimension to become ever and ever-a *better* person. I am not personally a strong enough person to take on this challenge without the helps and the reminders and the *supernatural grace* of food for the journey that my religion constantly gives to me. If I were, such an excellent person... I would have no need of it...it's true. I am not able to follow my values without these constant helps. Religion is for the weak...and I for one, count myself among the weak. Does this make any sense?

BB

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
And yes it is indeed important that people are good! But those of us who accept the reality of damnation know also that 'good' will not save us. By design, only humbly laying our lives at the feet of Christ will save us.

Monte

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
...well, and yes, if you are a good person who follows their values, and isn loving your neighbor... then, I think, probably you are right, and you and God will have a good laugh. My personal struggle happens to be, that I find in my faith the added challenge and dimension to become ever and ever-a *better* person.

So even "being good" isn't good enough? No amount of therapy in the world will ever heal you if you hold yourself to such impossible standards. When will it ever be enough? Will god have to appear in person and tell you you've done enough? Do you have to die to find out?

I believe everything we need is inside each of us, and we are all perfect versions of ourselves on the inside, without any outside validation being necessary. As I told TN in her thread, she doesn't need her ex-T to be a worthy, lovable, person. Everything she needs is inside. We will never heal as long as we are searching and relying on the perfect T, the perfect mate, our children, or even a mythical being that wants us to be perfect... we need to heal ourselves by loving ourselves for who we are right here, right now.

Hmm. I think I just realized I have outgrown my need for this site, just as I have outgrown my need for therapy.

ack. I really do not like the way what I wrote looks when quoted...I'm sorry, Echo. Clearly you are not a person who lumps people under one roof, and thinks we are "all bad." I'm sorry of it came across that way.

Yup...I don't pretend that my faith gives me comfort and a lot of peace. Most of that is because I haven't let go of my odd notions about it that have been taught to me by people who didn't have a lot of true understanding in the first place. That peace will come as I grow closer to truth...I firmly beleive that. One thing it does teach me, though, is to let go of unhealthy guilt, which is essentially a self-oriented position that we all struggle with, in favour of the repentance, or sorrow, which is much more difficult emotionally to bear, yet truly, leading to an experience of inner peace. (apparently) According to my T, this kind of repentance will act as an innoculation against some of the selfish things I am prone to doing. And nobody wants to be a selfish person. I just don't think that never coming face-to-face with personal weakness is that helpful in the long run. Guilt is certainly not helpful, either.

And, you have zeroed in on something very imporant, Echo, imo- that faith is, at it's very core, not an excercise in submission to logic, at all. Well, what is it people are talking about right and left brain...I forget which one is right and which one is left...but whichever is the part that is more creative and involved in love...is probably the part of the brain that God can more easily speak to, I suspect. In fact faith makes very little "sense" at all. Because Love, especially God's love- really doesn't make sense. It just Is...

Of course, you are free to take it or leave it. For myself, at the times in my life when I choose to leave it, I find myself already immersed in hell. And at those times, I can only do what Monte so wisely suggests...and try again to lay my life at the foot of the cross.

Please try to understand...so much of what I am saying here, is directed very firmly at myself...but yes, with the hopes that it may resonate with someone who deeply needs it and is asking for this kind of an answer.

BB