I want to say to anyone reading this, including those that don’t post, that ALL religions and beliefs are welcome and accepted here. NO ONE should feel left out or judged just because of this thread/this conversation. I feel that with a discussion like this one, it is very easy for others who do not share the same beliefs to feel ganged up on or scared to share their own beliefs for fear that they will be corrected. I feel that when discussions like this one are active in the group, we need to make sure that we are not alienating anyone who practices another religion besides Christianity, or whatever their own beliefs may be.

Yes, Maclove,

quote:

ALL religions and beliefs are welcome and accepted here. NO ONE should feel left out or judged just because of this thread/this conversation.

for sure. What I hear in this conversation is people sharing as they figure out how to reconcile their faiths with being part of a community that includes other faiths & the...erm, non-faithed (myself included here). I'm interested in hearing about this problem, and curious about the experiences of people dealing with it - especially as they are people I care about.

I understand the purpose of this conversation is not to leave me out or judge me - or even to convert me. (I know that would be a sweet outcome to our believers ( ) but I also imagine that they accept me the way I am - and that conversion was not the purpose of the thread.) I think BB's confusion and struggle is about BB's confusion and struggle, so this thread doesn't feel alienating to me. I hope it doesn't feel alienating to others but I'm sure we could talk about that, too. I do absolutely agree that we gotta take care of everyone, as best we can, so I like your message.

I'm tempted to write more about my atheism, but a) I need to do some other stuff! and b) It would just be out of a desire to 'represent' and that doesn't seem important to me. I feel good in what I believe, and I'm happy to listen to how another view of the world works.

J

Gosh, Mac...and all...it was certainly not my intent to alienate anyone or make anyone feel "left out." As elsewhere on this forum people are welcome to contribute whatever they think, beleive...as much or as little as they want...or just skip reading it altogether... This is actually my biggest worry, and why I started this thread...to see...do I fit? My passionate belief...can it fit here without alienating or hurting people? How "toxic" will some people find it? Will I be misunderstood? Will I be potentially misrepresented because it IS such a touchy and sensitive subject? Essentially...if this thread does not belong on this forum, than neither do I...in *some* sense. That is, I am wondering how "quiet" do I have to be, in order to fit and be welcome and not alienate or unintentionally hurt people? I too am interested in other's beliefs. What I wonder is, am I allowed to *respectfully* believe differently...and present that difference to all of you. In large part this is just an experiment for my personal information...and yes, a sweet outcome, would be if someone sees something in it that makes them think differently about Christianity and belief in God, and perhaps become more open to it. I feel it's important for me to make that clear, because if you, Mac, or others know that in some sense I have that hope, then you are more free to write me off, should you not desire to be hoped for in that way...does that make sense?

Monte, for myself, I see nothing unpleasant in what you share. No one is being insulting or disrespectful...or if it is taken that way, then it can and should be cleared up, because it's not my or your or anyone's intent or desire.

Jones, I too aminterested in your outlook, although in some sense the path you are on is closed to me...yet I respect you very much. I hope this helps a bit.

BB

The point of what I said wasn't to say that I felt that way or anything... Just that I have felt left out because of what I believe before (in life, not on forum), so just want to make sure no one else feels that way. Because normally when religion is discussed in an open sense something is said to make sure no one is left out, and I didn't see anything like that.

And BB I know it wasn't your intent to make anyone feel left out.. I know that this whole conversation started because of you feeling the same way you would never want to make anyone else feel the way that you feel.

Perhaps it would help, if I put a disclaimer here:

****This thread is full of my personal struggles and passionate beliefs...no one is obligated to agree with me in order to save my feelings, and everyone is welcome to say *whatever* they believe, and to disagree with me or agree with me, as each one sees fit.****

BB

I'm going to put it up at the beginning, too, Mac. Thanks for pointing that out. And thanks for knowing I mean well.

BB

Hi all,

Not much to add right now...just wanted to pipe in and say I've been reading this thread with much interest (and some fear and trembling ).

Something Jones said struck me as especially elegant:

quote:

I feel good in what I believe, and I'm happy to listen to how another view of the world works.

How beautiful is this? I know Jones meant this in terms of this particular thread, but I'd like to be able to bring this attitude into all my interactions with people everywhere.

All right, Jones. 'Fess up. You are TOO a T.

SG

quote:

Originally posted by monte:
Jones, I am interested in what you have to say about atheism. I am interested in hearing why people don't believe in God.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
Jones, I too am interested in your outlook, although in some sense the path you are on is closed to me...

Jones is a wise woman who knows better than to step in this trap, but since I am clearly an idiot , I will go ahead and give my answer.

I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus - because he's not real. I also don't believe in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. (Great, now the Pagans are going to be "triggered" too. Sorry guys, I love trees and flowers as much as the next person, but fairies aren't real.)

It is impossible to prove a negative. Just as I cannot prove there are no fairies, I cannot prove there is no god. Christians will always "win" this debate (in their own minds), because they are in possession of a quality referred to as "faith", which enables them to believe whatever they want to believe without needing proof. And that is why reasonable adults agree to disagree and leave it at that.

This is my opinion, and if other people want to believe differently, that is their choice and their right.

quote:

Originally posted by blackbird:
****This thread is full of my personal struggles and passionate beliefs...no one is obligated to agree with me in order to save my feelings, and everyone is welcome to say *whatever* they believe, and to disagree with me or agree with me, as each one sees fit.****

I am curious; why when I state my opinion (on my own thread), based on nearly 40 years of Catholic cultural experience (that includes K-12 education plus two years in Catholic university) and 2000+ years of well documented history (written by the white Christian victors!), my opinion is dismissed as "preconceived notions *interpretted for [me]* by popular culture and the media", but your opinion is "The Truth"??

(And for those who didn't read my update thread, which is apparently most of you since there were few responses, the opinion I shared was that I find Catholicism to be "unpleasant", and that is why I am no longer a Catholic.)

Blackbird, since this thread is about your personal struggles, I challenge you to examine your motivations here. Why does reading about someone else finding peace and enjoying good mental health through diet, exercise, and meditation "break [your] heart"? Why, instead of commenting on my thread with a "good for you, glad to hear you're okay" (you chose not to acknowledge me at all), did you choose to start your own thread asking everyone if you belong here? Clearly you DO belong here, as this forum is dominated by Christians, and all the key members have stated their unconditional love and support of you (myself included, though hardly a "key member")

You stated earlier on this thread that you feel a need/want to proselytise, to share "The Truth", even though it can result in you feeling socially isolated. Monte spoke of being horrified by the "lost but deliriously happy"... Why this need to control what other people believe, even if they are already happy? Could it be that starting this thread is a passive-aggressive attempt at controlling others through guilt? Could this be a pattern in your everyday life? Clearly your religious beliefs are causing you a lot of pain and anxiety. Might this be the reason?

Hi all,

I have also been following this thread...interesting stuff going on here.

quote:

Could it be that starting this thread is a passive-aggressive attempt at controlling others through guilt?

I almost feel as if this thread has become an evangelistic quest of sorts, though I don't blame anyone for it. I just think that when we get into this mode of ruminating on our beliefs and our opinions of those beliefs and our opinions of others' beliefs, the whole process snowballs until the only thing that's happening is everyone is butting heads. I don't think anyone here is butting heads necessarily, but I'm beginning to think that this thread is going to end up in a place where that's all that's happening.

I have to agree with Echo about agreeing to disagree.

That being said, I just want to say my piece, and then I'll step off my soapbox.

I am a Christian, and I happen to believe that it is entirely possible to (happily) co-exist with everyone, no matter their beliefs. I'm not a big evangelist, because I believe there is a delicate time and place for everything. In other words, if we are sensitive to each other, and if we feel compelled to show someone our belief system, we can share our opinion and respectfully and tactfully introduce them to our way of thinking. All of that is bearing on the assumption that we are not overtly attempting to penetrate their beliefs that they hold firm.

Everyone's beliefs are opinions (as Echo pointed out). It is our choice to take them as truths, but we have to be mindful that they are still opinions. No matter how many millions of people have the same opinion or how many years that opinion has been around, it's still just that. I happen to hold the opinion that God exists. But who am I to attempt to sway someone to my way of thinking if they counteract with an argument such as Echo's? You show me a Christian (or anyone of any faith) and I'll show you someone that has questioned the existence of God. Whether it be for one second of their lives or for many years. We live in a world where seeing is believing and we're always seeking a quantifiable truth. That just doesn't exist when it comes to faith, so who am I to condemn someone for their atheism when I don't even possess the logical explanation as to WHY I even believe what I do? Faith isn't logical, in my opinion at least.

Bottom line - we have to have respect for each other. And we also have to be mindful of whom we are speaking to. Want to be evangelistic? That's awesome, but choose the right time and the right place with the right person. I know, BB, you said that you hope that maybe this will reach even one person who needs to hear about God. But I happen to believe that conversations such as these turn more people away from Christianity...far more than the one person that it might help.

We often have these church evangelists come out to campus and go out onto the main lawn in front of our student union, holding signs that have verses from the Bible on them, standing on a pedestal, and shouting (literally shouting) reasons as to why we as a people are damned without accepting God as our savior. We had two different ones come out last week. There is a great debate going on on campus right now as to whether their presence is helpful or hurtful, and there is a very defined division between the two sides. What I'm trying to get at is that the very spirited support on each side (believers and non-believers or what have you) just goes in circles until each side is more staunchly for their own opinions. Nothing (or at least very little in my opinion) gets accomplished when things are approached in such a broad form. That's why I'll say again that I really, truly, believe that there simply has to be thought put into when and where and who we attempt to share our belief system with in the hopes of showing them a new way. And please note that it is simply a NEW way...not the right way or the best way. Just new. Because, in this world, we will NEVER positively know if we are right. We can only believe wholeheartedly and with every cell in our bodies, but even that isn't positive and definitive.

And, of course, this is really only my opinion and personal belief system. I really hope that none of this offends anyone. Would it be too happy-go-lucky for me to say that I just want everybody to get along? I truly just don't want to see something like this come between the members here...there are so many ways that we can help each other, so it would be a real shame if the great debate over the existence of God (which will never be resolved) causes alienation that can keep us from helping one another in so many profound ways.

Oh boy. I hope I'm not way out of line. Also, BB, I hope you know that this is anything but a condemnation of you. I still really love having you here, and I value everyone else on this forum, too.

Echo, you said:

"I am curious; why when I state my opinion (on my own thread), based on nearly 40 years of Catholic cultural experience (that includes K-12 education plus two years in Catholic university) and 2000+ years of well documented history (written by the white Christian victors!), my opinion is dismissed as "preconceived notions *interpretted for [me]* by popular culture and the media", but your opinion is "The Truth"??"

Echo, I do not understand how to talk about this with you, by email medium. But I am going to try. I do believe that popular culture and the media often presents Christianity and Catholicsm, and yes, other religions- through it's own generally secular negatively disposed filters. If you look at any TV news, Catholic priests are pretty much presented as molesters, for example. Yet, the great majority of priests are not- and in fact lay down their lives daily to serve people. And any faith- indeed any large organized group- will have the same ratio of abuse as found in the Catholic church. So I just think it is a *problem with sin* that has not been handled very well, to say the least...and not that it negates Church teaching. That's a separate matter, but *Catholics and what they believe* are generally looking pretty bad by all of this. Well, and maybe that's what we *deserve* and need to suffer under for a bit. But it doesn't negate the value and good of the organization as a whole. Anymore than you could say that the Boy Scouts is a worthless organization. (Well, you have a right to believe that, of course, and even just because of what has happened there- but you get what I mean- *maybe* it's not a worthless organization, and maybe, it would be valuable to keep an open mind about the boyscouts *overall* rather than write them off because of what happened) This is just an example of what I am talking about, when I say "preconceived notions" I will share with you, that I am a victim of abuse by people within the Church. How much S/A there was is kind of hazy at present, but physical, verbal, and emotional abuse was a constant, every day occurrance. My circumstances were severe. Most of this happened because I did not agree with the status quo as presented by the teachers in my school. (Or, more accurately, my ultra-conservative family didn't agree)...these were *not* the typical Catholic school rosary- praying abusers as normally portrayed in movies and etc. Rather...these were the teachers who were trying to "undo" the basic long-held teachings of the Church. The very teachings many people dislike intensely, like for example Humanae Vitae or devotion to the rosary, confession, etc. Why do I say all this? Because I found myself directly in the middle of a giant controversy within the church- placed squarely in between- and a victim to- the fight between the far right (my crazy parents) and the far left (the School, priests, nuns, teachers who strongly disliked these "conservative" teachings) So if I spoke my mind on any of these more conservative issues, I found myself *severely* punished. Eventually punsihment became a given, a daily grind I had to endure. I now have a hard time speaking my mind. I will give you, that it is very odd, that I still believe, since both sides of the "church debate" ended up being less than loving and accepting places for me to grow in. But I had an of experience that might seem a little tooth-fairyish to you, so I won't go into that much here. However, the experience gave me a strong belief in the LOVE of God. Far from being an old guy with a beard in heaven who doles out punishments to the weary like ourselves at will, I could say that I came to see God as the very idea of Existence Itself, and mostly Love Itself. This is confirmed in scripture when God describes Himself through the various writers continually as "YHWH." Which (I think) is Hebrew for "I Who am" -I could say, from my own perspective, mind you, that if you believe in existence...and you believe in Love...then I think you actually DO believe in a very large part of the same God I do. By preconceived notions, I also am talking about the idea that Christians believe in some old guy with a beard type "magical" character. Well, maybe all of that sounds insulting to you...but it is not meant that way. It's just the only way I can think of to explain what I'm talking about...which I presumed, I do have a right to talk about, my thoughts, beliefs and emotional and mental reactions- just as you do.

Well, and, can I say...that if I refered to Buddhism as "unpleasant" or whatever it was that you said...and it was a deeply-held belief that went to the very core of who you are...you *might* get a teensy bit defensive? Well, maybe not...but that is my own weakness...and I just ask for a little mercy, there, since I can't really help my emotional reactions to things. It was most difficult to admit to that, by the way, and I did that not as an attempt to get pity, but frankly, as practice in speaking my reactions that frightens me to do so. I will do it again- it hurts to have my religion unfairly represented. It is practiced the globe over and translated into every language...the Fathers of the Church were gentile and Jew...and of every race, by the way, and not just "white victors."

Echo, you ask:
"Blackbird, since this thread is about your personal struggles, I challenge you to examine your motivations here. Why does reading about someone else finding peace and enjoying good mental health through diet, exercise, and meditation "break [your] heart"? Why, instead of commenting on my thread with a "good for you, glad to hear you're okay" (you chose not to acknowledge me at all), did you choose to start your own thread asking everyone if you belong here? Clearly you DO belong here, as this forum is dominated by Christians, and all the key members have stated their unconditional love and support of you (myself included, though hardly a "key member")"

Well, Echo, I thought you sounded a bit sorry about praying the rosary in your thread, and it just seemed sad to me. If you read further up, you would have seen my apology on that score. I didn't mean to offend you, or patronize you. It just made me feel sad for some reason. As for commenting on your thread, I'm finding it most difficult to comment on anybodie's, until I get this sorted out in my mind. I've popped in a bit here and there, but I'm just feeling pretty nervous. As I'm sure you can understand. By way of example- if you were crazy enough to start a thread that ended up being an chest-thumping atheist manifesto, you might feel much the same way that I do about leaving comments on other people's threads at present. And frankly, I just didn't think to say anything on yours once we started talking here. Maybe that is selfish and boorish of me, and if so I am sorry about that. I acknowledge the potential inappropriateness of this thread... I really do. Yeah, maybe I am trying to passively-aggressively control others through guilt...although you'd have to explain your thinking there a lot more clearly, for me to agree- since I don't really understand it. And if that is my secret motivation than I suspect, I really do not belong here- even though you say I do. I'll have to think about what you've said a little bit more deeply, since I can't quite understand how this thread is a bid for passive aggressive-control- at this time.

Well, that's all I have to say. I really thought I was just trying to confront and discuss some of this as honestly as I am currently able to, and it seems like some people are -as I feared- getting hurt just by that- by me, being.er..me. So I would like to, in the interest of preventing more of that hurt- bow out now, if that seems permissable. However if anyone wants to continue talking about- I am also, happy to try to do that. Please tell me if anything I have said (or failed to say) offended you.


BB

Kashley-

quote:

I know, BB, you said that you hope that maybe this will reach even one person who needs to hear about God. But I happen to believe that conversations such as these turn more people away from Christianity...far more than the one person that it might help.

I agree, Kashley. I’ve always thought been puzzled by that type of thinking... it seems very backwards. I did enjoy reading your post by the way, you seem to have a open/accepting view. And I agree, I just want everyone to get along too!

Echo-

quote:

but since I am clearly an idiot, I will go ahead and give my answer.

Well I’m glad you’re an idiot then! We need another voice on here besides Christianity.


BB-

quote:

So I would like to, in the interest of preventing more of that hurt- bow out now, if that seems permissable.

Hmm…I don’t know what to say to this. I don’t think I can say anything else to you hoping that you will stay, because everyone on this forum has already done that and you still don’t seem to believe it. I guess I’ll just leave it at that.

No, I just meant bow out of the conversation...or this thread. It's getting too difficult already. I guess I am now wondering if it is permissable/polite for me to let others take the floor...without responding anymore?

Everyone is very welcoming and accepting. I do beleive it. No worries there.

BB

Got it, I thought you were still just testing the waters? Did you decide you would stay?

Yes, I will try. Thank you all for the kindness.

BB

Gosh, Echo. I think if someone does that, than they really need all the love and support that they can get. I have no idea if that is *really* what I've been doing...but if I have- than all I can say is that I'm so grateful for the kind people who may have seen such manipulation in my posts- but have put aside any disgust they might have felt at that- and instead made me feel so warmly welcome. That is love.

Peace,

BB

I really have to add, that I don't think anyone here has "played into manipulation" if that's what it really was. I think you all just kindly and cheerfully said "everyone is welcome here...including you, crazy BB"

oops, cross-posted with you Monte...

ps, echo, I really, really like you because you are very passionate about your beliefs. Don't worry...it's all good. really.

and I appreciate you honesty.

Ps- I have to stand up for our lady...(my lady? Should I leave anyone out of this?) Mary the Mother of Jesus would have been the original guilt soother and affirmer. Of course, all according to my belief.

Monte-

quote:

Echo you are perceiving intent that is not present in this conversation.

Actually, she’s not! I may or may not agree with everything that Echo is saying, but I can understand where she is coming from.

quote:

You've expressed a couple of times now that you don't understand why I might be 'horrified' by the plight of non-believers. Well, simply put its just about being concerned for the welfare of those I love.

Sorry but I really can’t stand the “I'm concerned for others who don’t share my beliefs” argument. I think it’s hypocritical. And you can’t explain your way out of it. That’s my opinion. I think this little roundabout needs to end because it’s going nowhere and nothing is going to be resolved.
Thank you.

BB-

quote:

but have put aside any disgust they might have felt at that- and instead made me feel so warmly welcome. That is love.

Just as a side note… It’s also love for someone to say, “I hear you, but when you say it that way it comes off judgmental (or whatever)” Love isn’t 100% support all the time. Love is also telling someone something that they don’t want to hear. It’s just kind of a pet peeve of mine- that someone isn’t being supportive and loving just because they disagree or have some constructive criticism.

quote:

Love isn’t 100% support all the time. Love is also telling someone something that they don’t want to hear.

yes....from our perspective, too...

quote:

I think this little roundabout needs to end because it’s going nowhere and nothing is going to be resolved.
Thank you.

Maybe...just maybe...it could possibly end with love. That possibility alone keeps me hoping.

Jones...where are you???

quote:

yes....from our perspective, too...

I wasn't talking about anything Christians vs. others... Nevermind, it's too complicated to go into here!

I understand...please try...

I didn't think your reply to echo was "in the spirit of the forum", so we are going to have to disagree on this one! No hard feelings

I am just hurting really badly right now...because I never wanted to start a huge fight. And that's what I done, again. Please, is there goodness...is there love? That is all I really wanted to know... you can believe me or not, or think I am manipualting. But it;s is all I really wanted to know.

BB

BB- I don't think this is a huge fight at all, and you didn't start it!

I will try...

Hiya, yep, I'm here, just attending to some other stuff. I'll come back a bit later today and say what I can.

Peace out sisters.

J

Just to clarify, I don't think I'm "in a fight". I'm also not feeling hurt, angry, defensive, or even particularly "passionate". I mean, how can one be passionate about not believing something? I just feel like since my thread spurred the creation of this thread, I have some sort of responsibility to see it through. Maybe not, though.

Monte, just as you and BB have described that having people you love reject a belief in Christianity saddens you, I, too, am saddened by the pain I see religion causing all around me. On this forum, in my everyday life, in my community, my state, my country, and around the globe, for the last several thousand years. So many millions of people tortured and murdered throughout history (even today) in the name of some god. So much suffering... I know I will never understand it; it just saddens me. How could all this suffering be worth it to anyone?

Echo...just to clarify...your thread was not the reason I started this one. Your thread popped up and was mentioned as an example of what I have been dealing with, (after you had already figured it out anyway) along the way...I just wanted you to know that, in case it was causing you undue guilt, or the need to respond if you really don't feel like it. This thread was started because I triggered myself pretty badly and then felt the need to leave, by responding rather controversially to someone on another thread that you were never even involved in, that I remember. I haven't been back there, so I don't know. So, in some sense, you are "off the hook" in terms of seeing this through. Not that I want you to be...no, but you are. All of this is my own stuff. No one has triggered it. I triggered it myself.

BB

Ps, even people who have been directly involved in this have not been able to figure out what happened, or where, or which thread...so this really, really is...just my stuff. ****Nobody's fault but my own****

Jones...thank God.

Whew! I'm tired just from reading all of this!! LOL I actually think this was a great thread to read. I'm not going to go into my beliefs but I wanted to say that this thread waas invigorating. So many opinions, views, ideas....isn't that what life is about? New, wondrous, exciting?

All of you here are truly amazing people. Everyone with their own beliefs and opinions. That's the wonderful part of being human - you get to see all sides of the picture.

Smiley

Haha Bebe - way to set the stage! Now I have to try to think of something wise to say! At this point I suspect it might be easier to play the national anthem with my armpit - but I don’t want to blow everyone’s minds, so for now, I'll restrain myself to some plain old thoughts:

I think, Smiley, you might be right. There's a great deal going on in this thread and actually it's rather cool to see people actually talking about what they believe, and being brave enough to express both caring and difference. I know there's some tension here - at least I feel it, if no one else does - but there's also a great deal of precise, informative explanation of positions and feedback on that, and I think that's cool.

I do want to reclaim my thoughts - I don't see the invitation to share about atheism as a trap laid by anyone - I take it as coming out of honest interest. And yet there IS a kind of trap that just comes built in to this kind of conversation - in that it can easily be a very familiar kind of back-and-forth on whether people should believe or not believe. Many of us have old hurts over those conversations, and what's more we can find them anywhere on the web. I do want to avoid that. I will be happy to share my perspectives on atheism some other time but I don’t see this thread as about that. It's true that we can't resolve the hoary argument about whether people should or shouldn't believe. But I don't think that's the important part of this thread.

Mostly I want to get back to what you have said, BeBe, about your experience of this inner conflict. That as you grew up you were told that to escape eternal damnation you had to share your beliefs with others, and that in doing that (as you were taught) you were then put through a very present experience of hell through all kinds of abuse (I'll just leave aside, for the moment, how sad and angry it makes me that you went through that). And now you are evolving with a belief system that you *want* to share, in positive ways that don’t alienate people, and you haven’t been taught *how* to do that (though to my eye you’re doing pretty well!), and what’s more, all the abuse stuff comes up in really nasty triggery ways whenever anything like this situation of communicating about what you and others believe comes up.

Given all that, I just have to say again that I think opening this thread and sticking around to say what you are experiencing, and to hear what others experience through what you share, is a very, very brave and healthy thing to do. I know it is scary territory. I see you being upfront about your feelings and what you know of their sources, and being upfront in your request to know how others are experiencing you, and looking honestly to find out more about what's going on for you with a view to learning and growing more, and to making good decisions about whether to be here and what to share.

You started this thread with questions, and I think you have been given some strong and diverse answers. I gather part of what you wanted to know about is whether you could be accepted and loved if your beliefs are different from others around you. Sounded like a definite yes to me. And whether you could share about your beliefs without upsetting people or putting people off. That one sounds like more of a maybe! I think there is good, specific information in the thread about how different people react to the different bits of what you've shared. I'm guessing that, given where you are now, that might all be pretty difficult and provocative to read - but I think over time there may be useful stuff there, as it all settles. If nothing else, it suggests that different people have different reactions on this stuff, and that there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer for getting 'safe' conversation. When I say 'safe' conversation I'm trying to indicate what you recognise yourself: that at the moment there is a gap between (on the one hand) the contentiousness of the issues and (on the other hand) your current ability to feel okay with strong, critical debate about differences in position and modes of expression.

Having said that, you have weathered this so far... (I think?!) and I'm really hoping you're intact! Certainly I understand more of where you're coming from, thanks to this thread. And I hope you will give yourself time for that bigger process of learning more ways to express yourself about your beliefs that are true both to your spirituality and to that part of your spirituality that requires loving community.

As for the rest -

Concern for my eternal welfare, I take simply as an expression of love or care, not as 'pressure' to do/be anything other than true to myself. I am pretty sure that those who believe in God also believe that that business is above all between God and me. I don't feel judged, hurt or annoyed at the concern; I see it as part and parcel of a belief system that is as central to those people as my atheism is to me. So I prefer to hear it and accept it in a peaceful spirit. No one's making me do anything, and I don't even see any attempts to make me do anything here.

I have myself been, many times, in the position of feeling that it was the right thing to do to share knowledge or beliefs that other people didn't want to hear. From criticising a family member's parenting when it seemed really important, to sharing invites to a pretty evangelical therapeutic movement I was part of as a youngster. It can feel really painful and isolating. My experience of being in that position was that I wanted people to understand I wasn't trying to force anything, simply to share the full strength and (that word again) passion of my feelings and beliefs. And that from there it was up to them. But actually it is hard to share that kind of passion. It requires a great, great deal from both sides.

Okay, gotta go. Thanks for listening.

Jones

Echo, it may be that you and I come from a different perspective on the atheism stuff - for me it is quite a passionate belief in the wholeness and completeness of material existence (including what is thought and felt and not yet understood in material terms).

And I also have a different perspective from you on what you see as passive-aggression. I'm pretty allergic to anything that sounds a bit like a diagnosis - our Ts have a hard enough time delivering that stuff with accuracy and insight, even when they know us inside out and we pay them zillions of dollars.

But irrespective of these things, as I've read I've found myself wishing I'd said to you earlier that it's been really good to see you around more lately. I can understand that you feel like you've outgrown this place, but disagreements or no, I like reading your perspective.

Take care,
Jones

quote:

At this point I suspect it might be easier to play the national anthem with my armpit - but I don’t want to blow everyone’s minds...

LOL! Jones, I laughed so hard I spit out my tea when I read that!


I don't have much that's useful to add.

For me, I grew up in an extended family that is a mix of people who are Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Catholic, passionately Atheist, and others who are Agnostic.

I guess in a way, I've had this kind of conversation my whole life... and I have no real insight or input all the same. sigh.

My family hardly talks of "difficult" family stuff, and yet somehow - these differing ideas about religion is something they actually talk about and somehow never divide or split over - EVEN THOUGH they passionately do disagree with each other, and openly.

No, the division and unspoken battles in my family are saved for what to do about the alcoholic family member... I've never really understood this. Eternity? yep, my family will speak of that. But today? shiesh. (and of course the differing belief systems do impact today and of course they do talk about that in terms of today, just not the things of today like abuse and relationships and stuff.)

What do I believe? I'm a Christian, but one that is very reluctant to call myself one. The reality is, I love Jesus. (yep, I said it. Gosh it is scary to say, but it is true for me.) Christians throughout history have done a million cruel stupid mean things that are anything but what Christ was about. I am very mindful and aware (and have experienced) some of the painful things some people in the church do even today. The church is seen by many outside of it as being hypocritical jerks - because some are, while they proclaim love at the same time - and it drive me nutty. Yet, I'm not really any better myself. So thus, while I am not reluctant in loving Christ, I am reluctant in calling myself Christian.

In my family, somehow, my particular protestant-ish (?) non-denominational belief in Christ, that there is a God, is seen, at best, as weird. At worst? My family sees it as something they use curse words to describe.

I grew up in a family where the God I loved was a curse word too. Yet at the same time, my agnostic parents encouraged my brother and I to "pick whatever faith we choose" and to make sure the decision was ours, and that we didn't hurt others.

I can understand the pull to tell others what I believe out of concern for them. At the same time, Christ... well, he met everyone where they were at. His most harsh words of crictism for those who where the most "religious" and the least authentic.

I value authentic searching, even passionate atheism, a lot. I don't agree, and yeah, I feel concern about it - yet, at the same time, I also believe God...works it out... Oh, how do I say this? how do I explain? how do I express my heart? Christ couldn't convince anyone into heaven or make anyone believe they were loved. He could only love them and speak truth. He gave people the freedom to choose. (hmmm... a little like how my T gives me freedom to chooe too to belive her when she says I'm not as bad as I think I am.)

I see a lot of that happening here too. I don't e this discussion as a fight between differing beliefs, but a battle to speak truth as people believe it, while giving people the freedom to choose and be real and authentic... and not a battle against each other, but I sense a bettle within everyone here trying to figure out how to just do that. (Am I off?)

I think that is really beautiful. I'm proud of you BB for starting this thread and for hanging in through it. I'm proud of the respect people have shown one another. (google anything where people of different beliefs about this stuff talk about it back and forth and rarely does it gone on this respectfully this long - especially online!) I think it might be because we are all struggling with our stuff - and I see a lot of people owning their own "stuff" and what they believe here while seeking to respect the boundaries of others? I dunno.

Shiesh, that is a lot of rambling on to say - this is a good conversation...

I just wanted to say that. Wish I had more time to perhaps say this better. But now I must run and go try to get the image of Jones farting the national athem out of my head. :P

~jane.


p.s. ok I did go back and edit this for grammer and spelling. sorry for the earlier messy post.

Just cross posted with you BB.

just wanted to add to you that if you want to put this thread to rest, or if others want to carry it on, and you want to just bow out of continuing in the conversation, please know, you do have all the freedom to do so - there is nothing wrong with that at all. Please don't feel pressure to hang in this difficult conversation... as someone who has been pretty outside of this conversation - it seems like the discussion has really included everyone.

dang, I am not saying this well.

If you would like to end this thread, then I'll respect that BB - and anyone who wants to pick it up, also can start perhaps a part 2?

(am I making any sense?)

bb - also just want to add, you are amazing and you rock for really being real with your struggle about this issue...

Part 2 could be a good idea... I dont know what everyone else thinks but I think it would just be more Christians vs. others. If there was some more diversity it would probably be good... But it seems like it would be more of the Christians and atheists going back and forth (if Jones and echo decide to join in) and me somewhere in there since I dont belong to either side and no one shares my views (which I've never met anyone who does).

BUT I do think that we as a group should be able to have a open discussion with no fighting, just sharing our beliefs....

I dont know! Just some thoughts.

what if we start a thread just titled maybe something like "space to share spiritual beliefs" or something much better worded. maybe title it "spiritual discussions"? or spiritual thoughts or... I dunno.

hmmm... it doesn't even have to be a part 2 - it can just be it's own thing. Then maybe it would not seem like Christians vs. others? more like space to just share stuff?

and spritual thoughts i don't think have to be restricted to there of course.