MTF - Does your T allow emails, faxes or giving print-outs? Maybe you could take this post and show it to her. I think knowing how you're struggling with H, with T, with the infrequency of sessions/contact, would probably be very helpful to the process. I'm sorry you're in such a confusing place. In my case, I've discovered T will never push me to talk about anything. He insists the process should be client-directed and I think most Ts agree. However, since I find it literally impossible to bring things up verbally on my own, I have given him lists of topics that I think it's important to address and I feel comfortable with him asking me questions about. When he asks a question, if I feel like talking about it, I do. If I don't, I just say, "I'm not wanting to talk about that right now. Maybe another time." Do you think something like that would work with your T?

Hi Yaku,

No emails, texts or faxes. But the idea of giving her a list of things to talk about might work. I guess she can't read my mind (which she tells me all the time) so it is up to me to put things out there for her. I just hate it when I try and she doesn't get it or ends up working her way into another subject entirely. So frustrating. I wish I could just open my mind up somehow so she could see everything that goes on in my head. Ugh. Fear is such an enemy to therapy isn't it? Thanks for the suggestion!

MTF

Hi, MTF- sorry I don't have a lot of time right now, but I just wanted to say that I think your T might be trying to get you to just honestly get in touch with what you need from her- and then ask her for it, and remind her when she forgets. I know this is the piece my T is working on with me, and our issues are strikingly similar. It has helped me tremendously when I have been able to simply contact my T and ask for an appointment more frequently without all the turmoil inside. If you want a check in call- contact her office and ask for one from her, or, if it's easier, then bring it up in your appointment and say: "It helps me when you give me check in calls. will you do that again for me please?"

Does this help at all? I really sympathise with where you are at. I know it is really really hard, and I'm not trying to minimize the difficulty. ((((hugs)))) You simply need regular contact with her, or whatever T you choose to work with. That's a legitimate need in the therapy relationship. It is too hard to do therapy without regular and consistent support- which we just have to learn how to ask for.

BB

quote:

I want to get out of this co-dependency trap I'm in, as it has plagued me all my life and keeps me stuck repeating this attachment thing I'm doing with my T and have done with multiple people throughout my life. I don't know how to bring this up with my T without sounding (again) like I know more about my issues than she does. I think she might be getting tired of me telling her what's wrong with me. But I also feel like I need to spell it ALL out to her so she can see the BIG PICTURE, because I don't feel like she is really getting it.

MTF... I'm so sorry you are feeling so upset. You sound really frustrated. I think you are feeling that way about a number of things but the above quote is a really big issue that needs to be faced. As you know, I spent a lot of time trying to teach oldT about attachment. I was the T and the patient for a lot of those months with him. It just does not work. And it is NOT SUPPOSED to be that way. She is supposed to know more than you do, especially about how to help you.

MTF I respect your decision to stay with your T and to try to work this all out with her but no matter how hard you try you cannot "make" her understand and be knowledgeable about attachment if she just does not believe in it and how it works. Therapy should not have to be that hard, it's hard enough when the T is providing what you really need. And I apologize if I come down too hard on your T but I see the red flags and I just hate to see anyone go through what I did... As you may know I'm of the opinion that says a spouse really cannot be a good attachment figure because it demands too much from them and especially if they do not have their own secure attachment status. Aside from that, most with attachment injury are looking for nurturing and a parental kind of care from their AF and it would be somewhat weird to turn your spouse into your parent. Just does not work that way. That is why a T is the perfect AF. They should have cleared out their own junk and have their own secure attachment so they can model what that is all about to you. If you try to use someone else such as a friend or other relative as an AF it would fail as well because they would not be able to satisfy your needs because their needs will come into the dyad and then it gets really complicated. Again, with a T, it's all about YOUR needs.

The other things I see you struggling with is her change of routine in not making the check in calls any longer. That has become an elephant in the room and it needs to be addressed and settled. This is part of her inconsistency that is shaking your attachment in the making. A good AF is really consistent. My T tells me often (with a smile) that he is boringly consistent. To me that means he is SAFELY and DEPENDABLY consistent.

I will see my T tomorrow and I'm going to ask him about the whole spouse as an attachment figure question. Since there is such a divide on this. I'd like his opinion. In MY opinion, the T's that push this towards the spouse are those who have their own hang-ups with acting as an attachment figure, either not understanding what that would be or being afraid of being an AF for someone, also fearing the temporary dependency that comes along with it.

It also seems that you need a weekly session. I'm not sure if I remember why you don't see her weekly. Is it for financial reasons or she does not have room in her schedule? I agree with you that twice a month is not enough for what you need.

I'm sorry you feel so lost and confused and I wonder if you feel this way because your T just does not have a clear plan on your treatment. I can see what my T is clearly working on with me. He teaches me things I need to know that I was not taught and then allows me to experience things differently with him than I have with others in my past. For example, we talk about how I interact with people, how I develop patterns in relationships and what red flags I should look for and be aware of to keep me safe. He discusses my judgement and my intuition and how I should trust it and pay attention to them. Then somehow life does play out within the therapy and things happen... like his most recent cancellation of my appointment. I react. Then we look at how I react, why, how that relates to my past (uh, transference from oldT maybe? or my parents?) and then he allows me to experience it differently with him. Although he does not always specifically say... TN we are going to work on this today or this week, I can see where he is going with what he talks about with me. Mostly he's been working on having me experience that what happened with oldT was NOT my fault and was the fault of his incompetence and lack of skill and knowledge.

As for goals... we have not done that. I tried to do the goals things with oldT but he never seemed to pay much attention to what I told him and once I even asked him to pull the list from my file and that we needed to review and revise it. Then he just ignored it again. I think he did it so it would seem like he know what he was doing LOL. Or maybe it's more of a CBT thing? Not sure.

I'm sorry you feel lost and confused and probably a bit anxious about seeing her again. Maybe it's time for you to sit down calmly with her and just ask her what her plan is to help you with your attachment issues and if you can see her weekly or at least if you can call HER in between sessions. This way YOU are in control of making the call and not sitting there agonizing over whether or not she will remember that check in call.

I'm glad you reached out here and I hope you continue to do so. Keep us posted on things.

Thinking of you,
TN

(((((MTF))))

I am sorry things are difficult right now with both your T and your husband. Funny thing I've realized is that I very often feel the same way about therapy and my H at the same time. Like last summer I was giving up on both and then decided to give both one more try. I didn't even realize in my head that I was making both decisions concurrently. They were rather blurred.

I agree with Tn in that maybe you need to go weekly or at least ask her for that check-in phone call??? I was going every other week but it just really isn't often enough to make any progress. Can you ask your t if you are special to her??? Would that be too difficult??

My T won't broach anything unless I do. Yours could be the same. I think before you can securely attach you might have to work through some positive and negative transference.

(((MTF)))

I really don't have anything of value to offer, as I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to my own attachment stuff. That is, I really don't know if I am or am becoming attached to my T or what. What you said about establishing goals and things to work on really resonated with me, though, because my T and I just talked about this. I've been in therapy with my T for nearly a year now, and just this past session, T started moving things in a different direction. I went into therapy not knowing what I wanted to work on. Probably because I felt that *I* was just...wrong. How do you fix that? So we went along for a long time without establishing clear goals. The past session or two, T has been saying things like, "Is that something you'd like to work on" etc. She's helping me establish goals, since I really don't know how to. This is something that I find myself wishing your T would help you do.

Ok, I guess I sort of lied about the attachment stuff, because I just remembered something my T said a couple weeks ago that pretty clearly indicates where she stands on the issue. She made a comment about being a sort of surrogate mother (which seriously caught me off guard), but I take that to mean that it's okay for me to grow attached to her, much like anyone would to a mother.

I have to say that I am also seeing a lot of red flags, and it seems like you have spent so long trying to help your T to understand you, when it is a huge part of her job. Yes, we need to help our Ts to some extent, but in other ways, they need to be intuitive enough to be able to know us really well without us having to spell everything out.

Anyway, I'm sorry if all of that is useless to you - keep posting here and keep us updated.

MTF,

I honestly hesitated to respond to you for some time. Especially as you talked about hearing both from people who believed a spouse could not be an attachment figure and and from people who believed they could be, evidently your T among them. I do not want to pressure you, nor damage the relationship with your T. But I'm going to say something, because along with TN, I am seeing some red flags, and I do worry for your well being.

I went through marital counseling with my husband as my husband, an equal adult to adult relationship while forming an attachment to our therapist and eventually gaining an earned secure attachment as they call it. During this I saw significant improvements in both my life and my marriage. But I honestly believe the reason that happened is that my T was my AF and helped me complete the developmental steps I had missed. As I got healthier through doing this, so did my marriage as my ability to relate to my husband and move closer to him were improved by the healing I was doing through using my T as an attachment figure. A big part of what I learned from him was to have really healthy boundaries which helped immensely in my relationship to my husband. But I couldn't learn to be interdependent with my husband (a healthy part of an adult relationship) where there were times I could meet his needs as well as times when he would meet mine, until I felt like I had something to give and had stopped my endless quest for someone to take care of me that way I had never been taken care of. It's too much of a burden for an adult romantic relationship to bear.

I remember one session when my DH was expressing that he felt bad that he wasn't enough for me and my T and I protested at the same time. My T explained that what I needed to heal was too much to expect from any adult relationship. That the relationship in order to help me developmentally had to echo the parental relationship in being all about my needs. And that would't be fair in an adult romantic relationship as it should be meeting both people's needs. We were both clear that the demanding the level of care and reassurance that I needed were too much of a demand on my marriage. The only reason my T could handle it was the boundaries and his understanding of exactly what was going on allowed him to be a lot more patient.

I do think the end goal is that we will turn to our adult relationships outside of therapy, most notably our marriages to meet our needs, but we can only do that after completing the developmental steps we need to in order to enter fully into adult relationships. That is what childhood is all about actually, but we were shortchanged and have to depend on therapy to carry us through those stages. So in my opinion (which I am painfully aware may be very wrong and off base) your T in urging you to turn to your husband is asking you to do something needful, but too soon to do you any good. There are things you need to learn in working with her first. I mentioned the boundaries above. Good clear boundaries are what helped me deal with my own stuff no matter what my husband was doing at the time.

AG

Ugh. Okay, so I am now beyond knowing what to do. I wonder sometimes why I come here because I get a lot of good advice and suggestions, but I end up totally angry at my T when I do. I just want to stop doing this attachment thing!!!!! I HATE IT!!! I am so attached that I can't even see straight enough to know what to do! Should I leave or should I stay? I wish I could have the courage to just walk in to her office and say everything I need to say to her and get it ALL off my chest. So many things bother me about our 'relationship' that I wonder if things are just beyond repair and if I will EVER have confidence in this woman. I want to trust her and have confidence in her, but there seem to be so many little things that keep that trust from growing! And yeah, I don't even see her enough to really have a true attachment. I wonder if she keeps it that way with patients on purpose. She is so busy that she works 12 hours a day more days of the week than not, and sees 7-9 people a day. I wonder if SHE even has a good relationship with HER husband! Granted she's 67 and her kids are all raised, her H works at the local university and maybe teaches at night, I don't know. She admits she doesn't eat well, doesn't exercise. I worry about her because of these things. I sometimes think she is the worst T in the world. I don't think that is stuff she should be telling a client. Too much of her stuff definitely comes into the room. Ugh. Sorry, I'm off on a raging tangent right now!!

Part of me thinks she knows what she is doing, but part of me wonders. She is in high demand and it takes two months to get into her. Like I said, she sees lots of people. She has been doing this for over 10 years and deals with trauma, sexual abuse, depression, bi-polar, depression, and drug/alcohol abuse. I would *think* she knows what she is doing and talking about, but maybe not. OR maybe I just have so many opinions and ideas floating around my head because I see everyone else's T relationships here and think my T is doing it all wrong. And maybe she is! But maybe she isn't. I came here originally because I was wondering about transference (which really was what I thought my strong attachment to her was) and ended up with tons more questions than I think I would have had if I hadn't found this place. I have this head that just goes and never stops and I worry so much about everything that I likely just drive my T crazy because I worry about every thing she does, says, etc. that just doesn't jibe with what I have seen here. Sometimes I feel like I've made a huge mess out of my therapy because I now KNOW TOO MUCH. And it all confuses me. What's right and what's wrong, can she help me or can't she, does she even have a freaking clue as to what is really wrong with me or does she just assume she knows, will I be able to get to a healthy place with her or will I just stay sick and stuck....blah..blah..blah. I go around and around with the same crap in my head all the time. I can't focus on life anymore. Everything else has been put on the back burner and all that matters in life is therapy and my relationship with my T. Is that normal? Is that okay? I don't think so. It's become almost pathological. Or maybe it just IS pathological. Maybe that's why my T doesn't want me to be attached to her, because I'm psycho!! I don't know what is wrong with me. I just want off this ride. Can someone point me to the nearest exit please???

Seriously, thanks for your advice and suggestions and the things you have all pointed out to me. I feel like if I took a poll on how many people thought I should leave my current T and find a new one, the results would be unanimous in favor of finding a new T. And my vote might be one of those. I am just tired of the run around, merry-go-round, never ending hell I feel like I am stuck in. And I'm scared to leave this woman. Literally SCARED like I'm going to die if I terminate with her. I tried and couldn't do it. And I don't know what the REAL reason was that I couldn't do it. If it was because of the attachment or if I really truly felt like I needed to work things out and give her a chance to make things right if I cooperated fully. I know I haven't given it adequate time, but I just need to really get going and instead feel like I'm sitting very stagnant right now making little to no progress because of the extremely long amount of time between sessions and the huge disconnection I feel with my T because of that time lapse. What a mess...

Thanks ladies for reading and 'listening' to my complaining. That's all I seem to do around here lately. Ask for help and complain. I'm sorry I'm not supporting others here like I would like to be. I'm too caught up in this crap with my T right now. I'm sorry.

MTF

MTF,

I can really feel your struggle in your words. I know how difficult it can be when you are both attached but questioning your T simultaneously. I hope that you can find the strength to get through this, even if its one hour at a time.

I wonder if some breathing space, perhaps a little break from T, would help? Maybe a week off to clear your head and figure out what needs to be said and to give you a little bit of a break from the intense attachment. One of my Ts recently went on vacation and I thought I was going to die while she was gone but it turned out to be a good thing. Gave me some time to cool down and breathe a little.

HOwever you end up handling things, here are some hugs to help carry you through. ((((((MTF)))))

Please don't apologize, MTF- you know you are important to us on this forum. Your story really resonates and highlights the confusion that so many of us experience with our T's...and it's not just your story, but it's what it reflects in YOU that makes it important.

I really can't say much except I am confused too- if you have had time to read any of my threads you will know that I am constantly split between following my heart (inner child/attachment needs) and following my head (learning to cope, learn and practice strategies to be able to function more effectively in my primary relationships) For me, I find it very strange that my SD does speak to my "inner child-" but I am not as attached to him as I am to my cyber-T, who appears to accept my attachment up to a point- but be much more "goal oriented" after a point. So- I have the same confusion, to the point that my brains are falling out and I spend most of my time in a dissociative stupor, trying to figure out what the heck to do with my life to make it more effective for my kids- this is clearly not good.
A friend on here has pointed out to me that the crucial thing was regular sessions...with some T, any T- that when there was a lapse, or frequent lapses, created by my own need to deprive myself, no doubt- I would croak and start freaking out, but when I had regular, stable contact I did much better...and I think this may be true for you, too. You can do a few things.
1. move farther away or entirely away from your T, and potentially- find a new, attachment oriented T- or potentially another T who is pretty much like the one you have. ( Will it be possible to find a better T? We can't know that positively- unfortunately, the therapy gods forgot to clone Ag's T in duplicates of several million- curse them!)

2. Move closer to the T you have now, in terms of more regular sessions/contact that *you* choose and ask for- in spite of all the very real red flags.

3. Go without any therapeutic support, and find other means of support.

4. Accept your T's suggestion that you move closer to your H with her help and guidance, and by embracing this, gradually will move away from her. ouch.

5. consult with another T while keeping th T you have.

You do not have an easy decision...may I suggest that you use this place as a sounding
board to help field some of your confusion as you make this decision? this decision you are engaged in is probably a large part of your actual therapy. You need some differing points of reference to help you, though painfully confusing, decide for yourself what you need, and what you believe, and ultimately what is right for you in your situation. this place can provide that shifting perspective- the shifting persective that you find so painful, but that is ultimately, probably one of the things that you need- as, in life there is no pat answer- it's a process. It's going to take time and painful confusion and angst to figure it out. But that's ok... really, it is.

Now fun...I completely get how no fun it is, MTF, how agonizing, how *wrong* that you should have to deal with this...but, here you are, in the middle of it- in spite of that. Not much can be done in terms of removing you from the pain you find yourself in, well- nobody really can decide for you, as you no doubt have understood- so...arg. It's just really, really painful and unfair. But there it is- you have to make this huge grown-up, difficult decision, without any of the tools or support that you deserve to have in place. As I see it- if you are continuing with your T, then the only way through is to be completely open with her about all of this... you have nothing left to lose. the relationship is already on the rocks, so you may as well lay it all on the line. hah! Now- will I just take my own advice already?? I hereby give you permission to kick my ass for being annoying.

I know it is too complicated, and that it has gotten too complicated anymore. But you need to talk to her, again, and again, and again about all of this confusion, until you find some clarity at last. imho, that is your (difficult) therapy path, (though it shouldn't look like this, it's true) -for now, it is this, until you decide.

I like what the others had to say, here...

MTF...I hurt for you- I know that place you are in. I wish I could offer you a cup of tea and just some comfort.

*please* keep posting! this is really important.! it's totally ok to use this as a place to process thoughts and get support while you figure it out...even if you don't agree with everything here, or aren't sure. It may not seem apparent, but there are a lot of differing opinions on this forum about effective therapy- and that conflict is really healthy, and a sign that this place is safe and caring- imho. So please don't feel like you have to necessarily agree with every single aspect of attachment theory in order to have a place here, but use this as a place to figure out what you think about therapy, about attachment in therapy- and what you think you need from it-...and to make friends- who sometimes disagree, and sometimes agree- but all still care about eachother, no matter what. As long as we are respectful of eachother, this is the perfect place to have dialouges about therapy, methods, what works for one, and what doesn't for another- etc...it's very individual, everyone's journey- there isn't necessarily one *set* way to get towards healing..and we learn this by expressing our strongly held individual opinions/doubts/disagreements and struggles one to another.. that's just a part of being human. Now- isn't that a frustrating answer for you? sorry... I hate it too- wish it could be more balck and white- "do this, and you will heal." I just really believe that anything that you choose to do that is coming from a place of wanting to get better, will lead you in that direction. And you do want to get better, MTF- that is clear.

wishing you peace,

BB

MTF,

I am not joining the chorus of "find a new T." It sounds to me like you haven't given this one a chance given the lack of regular contact. Attachment theory seems just so dang important that a therapist who isn't working with it, IMHO, just isn't a good therapist. And, so given what your T works with, especially trauma, it's probably more than likely that she does work with it. They just don't talk about it with people because most people don't know that much about psychology and their lives are pretty much a mess.

Please don't idealize all the good relationships that people on the forum have with the T's. Not everyone does. And for the ones who do, it took work.

There could be many reasons, not related to your T, that are preventing you from getting closer. You could have a mound of transference issues to work through, for one. Or, you and she just might not be a good match, for whatever reason. I don't know what your exact issues are, MTW, but I read this awesome article about trauma and our different emotional personalities. My strongest, I think, was this independent one who didn't want to NEED my therapist. I fought that for 3 years until I had to admit that there was a part of me that really really NEEDED to be close to my T. I have other parts that fight off closeness for all kinds of reasons and so I am finding that I have to be consciously aware of when I want to RUN because I do need my T. I need him to heal. I'm just not able to do it myself.

But these T's know that we have these emotional parts. And they know that in any particular session, a different emotional part might be rearing it's head and they will be working with different parts of you at different times. And, so basically, what I am trying to say is that there could be this very independent part of you that is in operation right now. And, that if your T tried to pull you closer, YOU would run. I think the distance that is between the both of you is there because you put it there, not your T. She may be able to help you uncover the reasons it is there. But of course, it's just my opinion, MTW. I just wanted to offer a different viewpoint.

My T is really busy too. But until I asked for what I wanted, I didn't get it. It took me a long time to get there. Like you, I was going every other week because I thought he was too busy. But at the end of the day, you need to learn to worry about what you need and ask for it. Our T's can't come running to us. We have to go to them.

If you can't talk to her about your concerns, can you try writing them out? Monte had some great suggestions.

At the end of the day, you have to make the decision for yourself. There's an old saying that you get out of things what you put into it. If you are so dang attached to her, why not give it a little push? Ask her why things aren't progressing?

(((HUGS))))

Liese

Sorry I went off on a crazy tangent last night. I'm feeling better today, but still blank/confused/lost. This happens to me when I have important stuff I want to say to my T and the session is fast approaching. It's like my intellectual brain goes into hiding and all I feel is fear and impending doom. I don't get that!?

My T called this morning to remind me of my session tomorrow. She asked how I was doing and I said, "Okay." She could tell I wasn't ok and said, "No you're not. That's what we call LLPOF. Liar liar pants on fire." and then she laughed. She told me my appointment time and said she would like me to bring in my journaling with all my thoughts and feelings about where I'm at right now and what's going on. I haven't been journaling because I have been too busy trying to be distracted from the pain I'm in over my relationship with my T. I've been reading all day long basically, or on here reading posts. Anything to avoid doing what I really need to be doing. I don't know if I should just write down random thoughts and feelings I have had over the past two weeks, try to take a more list-like approach where I just jot down things I need to talk about and then elaborate on the with her in session, or what. I don't know if I can pull my brain together enough to even do it. Why does my brain freeze up on my when I need it the most?! So frustrating.

Deepfried:

quote:

I frequently feel like my T doesn't get the big picture, the little picture, or any picture at all. Sometimes I feel like I'm talking about a picture of a giraffe and she's thinking about peanut butter.

I am glad and sad both that you can relate here. It's super frustrating! I agree with you that if I made some goals with my T at least we would both be headed in the same direction. In the beginning my T sort of just took the reins and directed things, and I figured that was how things were. She's the expert and I should just follow her lead. Well, I feel like neither one of us has really had the reins for quite a while. That's a scary thought! However, I'm a bit like you in that I am very concerned about rules/plans and making things go according to them just right. That perfectionistic side of us wants the control. Maybe my T has had a 'plan' all along and I just think she hasn't because she never defined it for me. I don't know...

Thanks for the suggestions on trying to communicate to my T what I will look like at the end of therapy. That's an interesting idea, and one I'll definitely have to work at. I hope you're feeling much better today!!


TN:

Thanks for your continued concern for me and my relationship with my T. Sometimes I am really worried that things will end up badly because my T has never told me how much she DOES understand attachment, or doesn't in this case. I am sort of left not knowing her level of skill and expertise to treat me and that causes so much anxiety for me. I think that keeps me from trusting my T like I need to and want to. I think a good talk about my fears and her abilities might be a good place to start with her tomorrow.

I too agree with you that my H can't be a good attachment figure. I think my T doesn't really expect him to be THE AF, just that he needs to be emotionally connected and in the process with me, because our marriage isn't going well and he needs to work on himself, too. He won't do individual counseling or marriage counseling, so I am on my own. Anyway, if you do manage to remember to ask your T about attachment figures today, that would be great! Thanks for thinking of me.

I don't know if I can get in more often to see my T because her schedule is so full. I think most her clients see her every two weeks unless they have a need to come more frequently, but I can only schedule four sessions ever at one time, and if I scheduled them weekly I would be going for one month and then having to skip a month because of how far out she is scheduled. I think she sees somewhere between 80-100 people at any given time. Crazy... I'm glad things are going well with your T. It is really good to hear, because I know you were so devastated after what your oldT did to you. Thanks for your support, TN!


Liese:

quote:

Can you ask your t if you are special to her??? Would that be too difficult??

Umm, yeah that would be WAY too difficult. I am pretty sure the answer would be 'No'. And I agree with you that there are some transference issues going on that need to be worked through before my attachment to my T can get any stronger or secure. I just wish I knew how to get through it all. Thanks for the reply.


Hi Mnte:

quote:

I was worried that in doing this, I might be suggesting a lack of confidence in his ability or knowledge, but I think they should be both tough enough and humble enough to accept such queries and concerns...and be equipped to respond. These are things we simply need to know if we are going invest so much of ourselves in the relationship. So much is at stake MTF.

Well said. I just realized yesterday after reading this that I am paying this woman for her expertise, not her friendship. It just sort of suddenly dawned on me. How lame is that? I am helping provide her paycheck and she is supposed to be giving me in return, a 'relationship' that helps heal the damage done in past relationships. Duh!! I don't know why I didn't see it that way before now. I do agree that they need to be honest and open about whether or not they are capable and willing to really dig deep into the muck of our lives and truly help us heal. Yes, Monte--SO MUCH is at stake here. I need some serious answers. Thank you my friend, for pointing that out. I hope you have good things come of your work and efforts to find out what you need to know from your own T. It's so painful to have so many important things hanging in the air.


Kashley:

Good to hear from you! I would LOVE it if my T said she was sort of a surrogate mother. I think she doesn't see herself that way at all. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe I should ask her how she DOES see herself so I can get some perspective on where she's coming from.

quote:

it seems like you have spent so long trying to help your T to understand you, when it is a huge part of her job. Yes, we need to help our Ts to some extent, but in other ways, they need to be intuitive enough to be able to know us really well without us having to spell everything out.

Thank you for putting it this way. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I oftentimes feel like I am doing all the work and she just writes "CBT" at the bottom of my chart each session and calls it good. There is likely more than that to it, but sometimes I wonder if I am doing the work and she is just going along with it. I agree we need to work on goals for my therapy. Otherwise I'll just keep on getting nowhere! Thanks for your input!


AG:

I know you hesitate to respond to me, and I understand completely why. My T is so different than yours in so many ways. That is probably why I struggle with her. I feel like she just has her own way and there's no point in trying to show her anything else. I also know you worry about other people's relationships with their Ts going awry, and I appreciate your input always!

I agree with you that my H can't be my AF. You are right that the relationship can't really hold up to the demands of a needy toddler-like person the way a T relationship can because of the boundaries and knowledge the therapist has about what's going on with the client. And I definitely need help with boundaries. My H walks all over mine and so do my kids. We all could use help in that department. Thanks for spelling this out for me so clearly. Maybe I'll take it in to my T and read it to her.


LG:

quote:

I know how difficult it can be when you are both attached but questioning your T simultaneously. I hope that you can find the strength to get through this, even if its one hour at a time.

Thanks for understanding, and for the hugs. It means a lot to have support from others who understand this stuff.


Blackbird:

Thanks so much for your kindness to me, my dear feathered friend. I'm sorry you can relate to some of these issues yourself. I find comfort sometimes in knowing people here understand me, but I feel so down about it at the same time. No one should have to deal with this crap, yet it is unfortunately our lot in life to do so.

quote:

if you are continuing with your T, then the only way through is to be completely open with her about all of this... you have nothing left to lose. the relationship is already on the rocks, so you may as well lay it all on the line.

Yes. This is where I am at and it helps to have others tell me that I need to just put it all out there. How to go about it is what is so difficult for me. It seems I go in there and things just deteriorate because T starts talking and gets off on some tangent, and I soon lose the courage to spit out what needs to be said. Then I go home feeling like I have wasted yet another session, have to wait 2 agonizingly long weeks, just so I can repeat the same ineffective process all over again. I need a plan. A concrete one that is sure to work. Hmmm. Now how do I come up with that plan?

quote:

I know it is too complicated, and that it has gotten too complicated anymore. But you need to talk to her, again, and again, and again about all of this confusion, until you find some clarity at last. imho, that is your (difficult) therapy path, (though it shouldn't look like this, it's true) -for now, it is this, until you decide.

Yep. That's it! Thanks for your understanding BB.


Hugs to you all! Thanks for the support and encouragement ladies.

MTF

MTF - what if you consider your posts on here to be journaling...and just copy and paste some pieces to bring? Would it be too scary to share something that was written in the knowledge T would never see it? It would get into what you really want to talk about and require minimal work as opposed to generating something from scratch...

Liese:

I posted without seeing your post first. Thanks for the reply. I think you have a good point in that I haven't had enough of a chance to really attach to my T because I don't see her often enough. I've had 38 sessions in a year and a half. That's not much, really. And I hadn't looked at it before from the perspective that she just doesn't talk about attachment and other psychology stuff with me because that's not what she's really supposed to do is intellectualize everything with me. Duh. I am getting it, slowly.

I think that you have pointed out something important with the whole being independent thing and not wanting to need my T. I definitely don't like feeling dependent on her, as I have fought dependency my whole life. I am a caretaker and was depended on as a child by my parents and siblings, and have always tried to be independent. You are right that if my T tried to pull me closer, I would likely run. Some of our deeply connected moments have really scared me because they felt *too close* for comfort. After those experiences I think I sort of backed off from her. Hmmm. I need to look closer at this stuff.

I know I do need to ask my T for more. She asks me at every session what she can do to help me. Guess that's my opportunity to put something out there. Yes, I need to push, and definitely need to ask her why things have stalled. Maybe she has some good ideas and insights and I just have to ask her.

Thanks, Liese!
MTF

Yaku,

That's a good idea. I have so much on here that could be put out there. Just replying to everyone after going through their responses has helped clarify for me some of the things that I should or could bring up with my T tomorrow. It's sad to me that I can be open and honest here on the boards, but can't be so open and honest with my T. She's the one who NEEDS to hear all of this stuff, yet I struggle to put it out there for her. Such a paradox.

Thanks for the idea, Yaku!

MTF

If she asks what can I do to help, I would ask her to fit you in for regular weekly sessions. It's just too much material for you to have to put on hold for two whole weeks. worrying about her schedule, how many other clients, and what most of them do in terms of scheduling- and if she can find a way to fit you in more frequently- is her problem not yours. all you have to worry about is asking. If she says no, than you have your answer, and will have to make due. Which would suck, but no more than it already does...hope you are ahnging in there today. I'm here, too. (((((MTF))))

Beebs,

I will try to ask her for that. She did get me in weekly last summer when she had a cancellation, but I have since moved further away from the clinic and we have one car which my H takes to work every day. It would be harder to get in on cancellations that way, but maybe she would be willing. I will ask. I know I need this. Thanks, (((BB)))!

MTF

MTF,

I was going to suggest the same thing as BB. Not having a regular appointment would drive me crazy. No wonder you can't really settle in with her.

There were so many times with my T that I felt like leaving, things just weren't happeneing, I wasn't making the progress I wanted. But I acknowledged in myself that I never get close to anyone and I'd managed to stay in therapy the longest with him and maybe the problem was more me than him. And so we keep hammering away at things. Even today as I sat there, I was so freaking nervous telling him about a fight my H and I had yesterday. The fight really traumatized me all day and I was very off. I really clam up when I try to tell him the emotional stuff. I just think it's going to take a long time because I've been this way a long time. But he's patient and says it takes as long as it takes. And life before him was dreadful. Not going back there.

Anyway, good luck tomorrow. I hope that you are able to open up a little. Even if you can write things down. I tried that once with my T when I couldn't talk and it really helped.

((((HUGS))))

Liese

Love all the suggestions you've gotten so far MTF. Especially Yaku's idea about bringing in some of your posts - you could copy them and paste them into a word document and I bet you'd have quite a bit of "journals" from the past two weeks!

I also think that a regular appointment is crucial right now. I could not imagine being on hold each week, ending each session by scouring the schedule book to find a slot that will work next time. Most people really do thrive on routine, and with therapy, I think, at least for me, that is even more critical. My T has a conflict in 7 weeks, and we've already looked ahead and adjusted the schedule accordingly, as I pretty much freak out if I don't have my sessions (I'm in twice a week now, hoping to up it to 3-4 times in the summer.)

Good luck to you tomorrow, and sending lots of
((((MTF))))

Just an update of my session with my T last Friday for my own benefit of having it online somewhere. Really LONG, as I tried to put the whole session down.

As soon as we sat down she asked me how I was doing and I said okay. She asked how things had gone with journaling and I told her I hadn’t really journaled. She asked how things were going then, with checking things out with people, and I told her I was sort of doing it. She gave me some examples of how I could do that with other people. Call up a friend and say, Hey, someone said something to me and I want to get your opinion on it. Just generally to check it out with trusted sources rather than assume that I know what was intended or meant when someone says something to me. I think I need to really work on checking it out with the person themselves that said whatever it is I’m upset about. Either way, I guess.

She asked me what had been on my mind, what I’d been ruminating about for the past two weeks, since I didn’t journal. I told her I had written some stuff down and she said, Oh good. Then I got the index card out of my purse. She made a joke about journaling on recipe cards. I started off with telling her that I was struggling with dependency/neediness issues and that I felt like it had gotten worse. She seemed concerned and asked what was triggering that for me. I told her it wasn’t so much what she was doing or not doing, just that the day after a session I have a really hard time. I think she missed the boat on that one because she wrote something down on my chart but then she went on to say that I go home and ruminate about the session, and that I try to find something to worry about or even go as far as making progress into no progress at all. I will twist and bend things in my mind until they are negative. I can kind of see myself doing that a little bit. She said she wants me to close the door on the session once it’s done and to forget about it; to tell myself it’s okay, that we’re okay (she and I), and then shut the door on the session rather than go back and try to pick it apart and look at everything that was said and try to understand what was meant in this comment, or why did she say that—was it an attack on me, etc. She said if I leave the session and something is in my mind from the session, then I need to call her ASAP and work it through with her over the phone rather than ruminate on it for the two weeks in between sessions. I see how that could be really beneficial.

So that led to me telling her that I have a hard time when I don’t get the check in calls because I feel disconnected. I should have told her about ending up in the parking lot outside her window, but was afraid it would worry her a bit. She said something like, Ok, how about you take the responsibility to check in with me when you need to, because I don’t know when you’re having a bad day or something is bothering you. She wants to put the onus on me to reach out to her when I need to work through something. I think once she said that, I realized she doesn’t really get the whole dependency feeling I have and the intense need to just connect with her. I didn’t exactly communicate it very well to her. Hence the feeling that I should have told her about the parking lot issue. THAT would have told her what I needed her to know. Anyway, I told her I would be willing to call her instead of her calling me. It’s going to be REALLY hard for me to do it, but I guess if I’m struggling enough I will know I can bite the bullet and call her and she’ll be okay with it. I hope.

I asked her what she thinks is the reason that I haven’t made progress. She said first that I don’t disclose. I do the ‘doorbell ditch’ type of thing where I dump a bunch of stuff all at once (in letters) and then run. Yep. That’s obvious. But it helped that she pointed it out. She said that I need to get real in session with her and work on stuff in the moment, not two weeks later, or two months, etc. But, she reiterated that she still wants me to call her if I am not able to get it out, because she knows that it might be easier to tell her over the phone rather than in person. Then she jokingly said maybe she should put a paper bag over her head with two eye holes in it so I can tell her but not have to really ‘see’ her. I didn’t find that very funny, but probably because it’s really how I feel. I struggle SO MUCH to tell her things in person. It’s true that I can do it over the phone so much easier than face-to-face, but it’s the person to person stuff that I need to work on. She also said that when I keep stuff back there ends up being so much to deal with that we just don’t have time to go back and visit things that happened a year ago, or several months ago. Basically is comes down to the fact that she has too many clients and too much to keep track of to remember every little thing that goes on in every session, and that we don’t have time to try and revisit old stuff. It’s got to happen when it happens. I have to bring it up in the moment, or at the least, within a couple days or at very worst at the next session. No more holding back.

She also said that I personalize everything. Yep. I take what she says and put interpretation and meaning to it that isn’t there. She never knows if she says something and I’m interpreting it to mean something else or if I’m on top of it and know what she really means. And she said she doesn’t have a crystal ball that tells her what’s going on in my head, but that I think she can read my mind, and I can read hers, but it’s not true. She asked if that could be true in other relationships and I told her it is. She said I even take real progress and twist it into NO progress, that I am that bent on things being negative. She said I don’t see the positives, not even the good stuff about myself, and that I am very self-defeating. This all comes from the perfectionistic side of me that isn’t okay with things being good or alright. They have to be perfect or they are not good enough.

I told her I worry about how to work on my co-dependency issues. I think I lost her again with this. What I really should have said was, “How are you going to help me work through my co-dependency/attachment stuff?” She thought I was talking about what I do within my relationship with her and asked if I could see the patterns and dynamics and stuff that cause me to do what I do in attachment relationships. I told her I have similar issues in all relationships. She said that my relationship to her is an attachment, and that it is different than my other general relationships. That’s when I told her that in all my relationships I care take, people please, rescue, etc. That’s when she got on board (well, with what she thought I was talking about, which was sort of what I needed to talk about too, but I guess it’s an entirely different issue???). She said I need to work on reciprocity. Take someone something (like a dessert) in something than has to be returned, like a good dish or plate that I need back. I told her that seemed weird to me and she said it’s not manipulation, it’s putting out an emotional bid to see if they will return the dish with something in/on it, thus reciprocating. She told me that things like that work best with other couples, like having a couple over for dinner, then see if they invite us over to their place for dinner. She mentioned that emotional bids can be really subtle so I need to be looking for them. Two ladies picked me up last night for a church women’s meeting without me knowing they were coming, so she suggested taking them a thank you card or some cookies or something to let them know that it had meant something to me that they had done that. She said some people will put out emotional bids only a few times before they quit, so I need to reciprocate. She suggested calling up old friends and reinitiating the relationship by agreeing to meet them somewhere (in the middle) to do lunch, get together with the kids, etc. If I find myself doing most or all of the giving then I need to pull back.

I don’t remember how we got onto the topic, but we ended up talking about my marriage relationship. Oh, it was with the co-dependent stuff. I said I do that in my marriage. We got to talking about how my H doesn’t want me on meds because I’m using valuable money that could go to vacations and such that he finds to be a priority over ME. I mentioned that I was going to go to school and she said (again) that she thinks that would be terrific. At this point she took off her glasses and said that was the mother part of her talking, so she would take off her therapist’s glasses and talk woman to woman. She said she thought that going to school and getting a degree would be really good for me and would help with my self-esteem and how I feel about myself in my role in the family. I would be able to contribute to things for the family, like college tuition and family vacations, etc.. She asked me if I knew yet what I wanted to major in and I said I hadn’t decided. Then she took me totally off guard and said, “You should do therapy.” She said then I could get free therapy, as it’s part of the program where I’ll be going to school. I was surprised that she would suggest I could actually be a therapist. I don’t know. It’s something I’ve thought about, but don’t know if I could do it. Anyway, she talked about the need to become empowered and in a position where I have some power and the ability to take care of myself. That way my H would know that I am in the relationship because I want to be, not because I have to be. She talked a bit about her own relationship with her H and how she now contributes a pretty good chunk to their bank account and that she can take a big chunk and spend it and he doesn’t say anything about it. He teases her, but knows it’s her money. He even tells their kids that he’s fine with her working 10 hour days because that’s 10 hours she’s not out spending money, except during her lunch hour when she ‘power shops’. I thought that was kind of funny. But her point was that although she doesn’t really know my H, she has met him and also from what I’ve told her, she thinks he feels like he’s got me where he wants me in the traditional role of the woman in the home with no education or means to support myself so that I am dependent and feel weak in the relationship. I agree with her. She said her H knows that she’s there because she wants to be there, and he knows that if she doesn’t want to be there, she won’t be because she could take good care of herself without him and he knows it, and she knows that he would be able to take care of himself, too. Anyway, kind of something to chew on.

Then we talked about ways that I can help my marriage. She mentioned validating my H for things he does that show that he’s making an effort for me and the relationship. To really praise him and let him know when he’s doing well and also when he’s not getting things right—otherwise he won’t know what he does that isn’t working. Then she asked me if she had ever given me a paper that lists things to say to help in repair of relationships, especially marriages during arguments or fights. She says when she and her H get into fights she hunkers down and throws a grenade, then he throws a missile, then she throws an atom bomb and he throws a hydrogen bomb. She was acting this out for me as she spoke and it was kind of humorous. She wants me to look at where I am at when things escalate, not only in issues with my H but issues with her. Basically she said I could be caught up in thoughts and in my mind in a way that wasn’t really congruent with what was going on and it could become totally disproportionate to the problem because I allow my head to go wild. I need to stop and look at what the issue really is and see the difference between it and where I’ve gone in my mind. She also mentioned that when H gets things wrong or I have some really hard things to communicate that I don’t feel like I can say to him and I feel myself shutting down (like she said I was then there in session), I need to write it down and read it to him and then ask him to think of four questions to ask me about what I said, not just give me whatever came off the top of his head, but to actually think and pray about it. Then when I get his feedback, I can take it to God and go and pray about it and see how it feels. Then she loaned me one of her marriage books she says is the book of all books by THE marriage expert, Dr. John Gottman. So I will have to read that and get it back to her. The list she gave me with ideas of things to say to repair a rupture comes from him, so I’m interested in reading it.

She asked me a couple of times during the session how I was feeling about what she had said to me so far, and were we still okay or did I have a concern with something she had said. Poor woman feels like she has to walk through a mine field when I come to her office now. I told her things were fine and I was okay with the stuff we had talked about. She asked if there was anything else in the last couple minutes that I wanted to talk about and I said no. Of course there are other things I want to talk about, but we don’t have time for it all in one hour! All in all, I feel like it was a good session and I got some good answers and different perspective than I had before. I felt a little more comfortable this session with bringing stuff up (maybe because I knew she expected me to be bringing stuff), and that makes me glad because I just want to get to a place where I don’t feel so stressed out and nervous when I have to go to a session. The adrenaline rushing through my veins just doesn’t help me feel like disclosing stuff because I’m more concerned with my nervousness. I think things are getting better. I hope they are.

MTF

MTF - Thamks so much for sharing your session. There are so many things I can relate to: the struggle to communicate, the reading meaning into others' comments, the codependency issues, trouble receiving, being unevenly balanced with H (although I have a degree, I do not have a career and contribute almost nothing financially), the desire to go back to school, the thinking about becoming a T (and my T saying I could/should). Feeling really connected to you and it seems like you are feeling really connected to your T, which is great! I hope you are able to take advantage of her offers to call and clear things up as they arise. I know it will be hard to do, but I'm sure it will make the time between sessions so much more manageable. ((((((((((MTF)))))))))

MTF It was good to hear about your session and that your T seems like she is really trying to help you and connect with you. I can see that she is responding to your tentative opening up and reaching out towards her. And I don't mean tentative in a bad way at all... we are all like that in taking the small steps in trusting our T in order to allow more vulnerability. You just went through a serious rupture and it would be healthy to be cautiously optimistic.

While I still think she talks about herself too much, I do think she is trying to be what you need to heal.

I hope you do take her up on those check in calls. I think you do that dump and run because you are still afraid of your T and I think part of this has been caused by her inconsistency and loose boundaries. I perhaps would not call what you do ruminating but instead "processing" the session. What I would suggest is keeping a small list of those things that later on feel upsetting to you about the session. Write some notes down and then bring them to the next session and address them immediately there so they do not build into something massive and unwieldy to tackle in session.... or call her up and talk about it.

I hardly EVER let things sit that upset me. We deal with them right away so there does not become a backlog of things that I'm worrying about.

Hope you are doing okay after this very important session. Keep posting because I think that helps to organize your thinking and it also gives you that record of your thoughts and feelings and maybe we can help with that too.

Take care,
TN