Welcome!

I'm sorry to hear of your negative experiences with different T's. I'm a counselor in training currently. What I'm about to explain is no excuse for T's to treat their clients poorly...I'm just going to try and explain what I've been learning...
I have also been in my own therapy for 2 1/2 years. What I'm learning is that my long term therapy with my one therapist that I recently just ended was a rarity. From what I've heard HMO's are looking to pay for short term therapy and something that is research evidenced based (short term solution focused or cognitive behavior therapy etc.). I also just learned that some therapists get low marks or don't get insurance companies to work with them if they don't have people out the door in a certain number of sessions. It seems that many people in this field are extremely frustrated with the way the system is working and they are feeling caught between helping people and making the insurance companies happy, so they can get paid themselves. Also, third party payers (insurance companies) like to have a diagnosis or they might not pay for the services. Many therapists do not agree with giving a diagnosis based on the first session or not knowing very much about the client. In my clinical class where we are learning this I am seeing how very difficult this is. With my own therapist I know she was frustrated with my insurance issues. At times I felt like she was being cold because my insurance company exemption caused her more work and she wasn't getting paid her full fee (my HMO set a limit on the fee or something). It's part of the business crap that what I'm seeing most T's hate, but have to do. Apparently, gone are the days when people go into therapy for years and years and it's just paid for by insurance.
What I'm thinking is paying out of pocket for therapy and getting around insurance companies is the best bet in some cases, but who can afford that, right?
In my code of ethics is above all else do no harm, so just because T's have to deal with insurance issues doesn't mean that they should say hurtful things.
I can't believe what a couple of T's have said to you!


I hope you find a T that works for you.

quote:

In my experience, I attribute a lot of those failed outcomes to a mindset of therapists that has tended to belittle rather than enable, that has led them to engage in condescension and disdain rather than genuine connection and sincere attempts at progress.

I agree. This has nothing to do with insurance companies but the general attitude of many therapists in the industry. I think the fundamental problem is the unwillingness to see the client as a separate person with their own unique values and outlook on life. Therapists tend to hide behind their own jargon (transference, projection, etc) and use it as excuse to impose their own values and outlook on life on an individual. (Which is often oversimplified and overgeneralized) There are double binds everywhere... one one hand, they address self-doubt as an issue, and encourage us to speak up in the moment. Yet when we do that, when we actually use our bullshit detectors, they get defensive.

I am not a fan of what therapists are being taught. I am not a diagnosis, I'm not a textbook, and I'm fairly intelligent. There was a post here I once saw.. a training video for therapists. The therapist actually had the arrogance to say: "We are here to listen to their story, but not buy into it".

What? This is the kind of attitude that really turns me off to therapy. Why am I here, you may ask? Because I'm just idealistic enough to hope that the tide will turn and the way things are being done right now will go the way of Freud. Therapists love to talk about "change" but don't realize that the industry needs to change because it is pissing a lot of people off. There needs to be a more respectful dialogue, opportunities to discuss deep philosophical and existential roots of our pain and suffering (and strength)... a true adult-to-adult exchange.

As an aside, the word "change" is overused. Change does NOT imply growth. I can change every day, but that may not get me anywhere. One can "change", upon the request of a therapist, and regress. I would like to see the words "growth" and "evolution" used. My growth and evolution has always come from within, not from an external source such as a therapist. But it is nice to have someone there, in my corner, as I go through challenging periods of my life.

On the bright side, a therapist was recommended to me by a friend. She had been seeing him for a couple of years. I checked out his website. The words and phrases that stood out for me were "respect" and "The client knows themselves better than the therapist ever will".
He doesn't take insurance. Frankly, I would prefer it that way, because I don't want a diagnosis ( I don't need one) to have a negative impact on my future and my career. In some states, employers and state regulatory agencies can have access to all of your medical records. I am not sure what the disclosure policies are on this, but it gives me the heebie jeebies just knowing that someone can slap a label on a person, and that label can haunt them for decades.

To me this is just common sense. A therapist is present as a witness, that is their purpose, not to impose their will on me or project their own shit on me. If a therapist is unable to keep his or herself and the client separate, there is a problem, and I would suspect that said therapist is not undergoing their own therapy.

On one hand, I would like to know that there is someone I can talk to when life gets stressful and overwhelming. On the other hand, I have gained much strength from exiting therapy, learning to trust myself first and foremost, knowing that I'm OK being alone. and re-discovering the common sense of the non-therapeutic world. Not to mention that I'm saving a lot of money in the process.

I know that some people need therapy and have deep rooted problems. But what about those that are high-functioning and just want someone to talk to that will do so in a respectful manner? Not play games? I"m not holding my breath, but still hold hope.

My hope for you is that REGARDLESS of whether you find a therapist or figure it out on your own (which is an option) that you find peace and happiness.

Hi their Jside29, its tough reading your opening post as I can relate 100% to what you went through. All I can say if its off help at all is put yourself first all the time with any one you see no matter if its a T or a shrink or other wise, as they are only going to do the bare minimum for any one in my opinion.
Best off luck to you...

ND

Thank you all for your thoughts and insights. In thinking about these past events, one idea occurred to me: I could write a couple T's a letter telling them the ways in which their words affected me. My rationale for doing so would be 1) to help myself attain closure and 2) provide for them some feedback, which they may use in the future. Counselors seem like they operate in a bubble in a way, in that they don't get much direct input from patients and no one is watching in on them to ensure that they uphold certain standards of respect and professionalism. Perhaps this bubble, combined with the fact that people are vulnerable in sessions, gives them a sort of freedom from redress that few professionals have. And therefore certain ones feel comfortable playing the role of the condescending jerk sometimes.

Any thoughts about the letter idea?

Just be careful... I did this and it was used against me to make me appear to be the crazy one. I am fairly certain that the therapist I had was more than just a little bit unprofessional in many ways, as a matter of fact, he was a creep..and I'm looking at filing a complaint but I'm not hopeful about that either.

Therapists seem to have some immunity, more than the bubble you spoke of, that allows them to not only cross boundaries but outright violate unsuspecting clients. When I think of what I told my therapist, how vulnerable I was, and how he used it against me, and how he was overtly abusive in the end (he met at least 4 of the criteria for verbal abuse) AND that this is common and that there is little recourse..it makes me feel almost physically ill at times.

I wish there was more that I could do. Try the letter. I have my doubts that the therapists will have much self-awareness and realize that they are the agents of harm and acknowledge what they have done or offer an apology. As a matter of fact, be prepared to have it blow up in your face no matter HOW logically and rationally your case is presented. I presented my case to my Ex therapist in such a way, in writing, and he acknowledged it, begrudgingly, but never apologized. He put in such a way as to make it sound as if he were throwing me a bone.. that I didn't know what was good for me, I'm just a client and I don't know anything.

He repeated the same behavior not only without remorse, but almost triumphantly. I have heard that many therapists enter the profession because they are messed up. Some of them actually think they are helping by being abusive, others I think, are so burned out that they begin to see clients not as real human beings but pathologies that need to be "dealt with".. as objects. From a philosophical perspective, I think that therapy has the potential, for those that are unaware, like I was, to destroy the soul. For the record, I wasn't even a "difficult" case. I was a garden-variety client that presented with depression and anxiety, who felt that it was inappropriate to talk about certain things with friends. Essentially, I'm a very private person, and I thought that therapy could be a safe place to talk about anything. This, sadly, is not the case in many instances. I am now more wise, more cautious. (so a good thing came out of this.. I got a real-life lesson out of it!)

I hope that the letter works for you, but be prepared for the typical response you might get from a condescending jerk that happens to be a therapist. I wish it were not so common. I also wish that there were more professionals that could back you up. Let me know if you find one, I would like to know. If you have the courage to speak up, maybe I should make another effort as well. Maybe a more organized effort will be more effective.

I do believe that for anything to change in the therapy industry, there needs to be some sort of grassroots movement amongst ex clients, and done so in such a way so that we do not appear to be "crazy, disgruntled, psychotic ex clients". If enough people speak out, and enough sane therapists back us up, it will help not only the client but the profession in the long run, one would think.

Then again, one of the most abusive therapists in my state (not the one I saw, but one I almost went to after my encounter with my Ex T) continues to practice. I am very grateful to have dodged that bullet. How he keeps getting clients is beyond me, but he does. My theory is that his clients don't know what a non-abusive relationship looks like, so they accept it, and tend to have a pattern of attracting abusers, including abusive therapists. One woman had the courage to stand up to this jerk, and he weaseled his way out of a formal complaint by asserting that the client was under the influence of transference, and projecting. There's your bubble.

It really is crazy, and was a bit of a shock to me to come to this realization. I do hope that the good therapists out there will have enough integrity to hold the bad therapists accountable for their actions, but I'm not sure if this is realistic.

If you think about it, if someone really is abusive, therapy is the perfect place to abuse others and escape accountability. This is scary. I'm not saying that there are not therapists that enter the profession for the right reasons, but plenty that enter, even subconsciously, for the wrong reasons.

Until then, I have no plans to re-enter therapy on a regular basis. There is one female therapist that has helped me realize that my Ex T was abusive and introduced me to Patricia Evans's books. If I do speak out, it is because I don't want anyone to go through what I did.

I feel bad that you had to go through what you did as well. You are not crazy, just know that, don't let them destroy your soul, and hang in there!

Let me know what your results are. I am curious.

Jside29,
I just wanted to say that it is good that "you all"...yourself/number9/nigeldaniel/athenacus bring light to these things. We don't expect such things to happen in therapy...I can't say that my T has done anything although I have been taken "aback" at times from some of her responses here and there and those things become obsessions and am slowly getting to a point of "well what do you know T? there are times you have no idea and you don't get it"...in a nice way I was able to basically tell her that and also agree with her statements in that realm that she brought up.

So much of the time I've wanted to defend T in my mind as though she could do no wrong but that is not the truth...sometimes T's don't get it right...I'm trying to accept that and actually forgive especially when it was around very sensitive subjects and trying to get there.

Jside29...I think the letter idea is good. I wouldn't expect anything though that you will ever get to see but do it for yourself as it may help you... I think you already figured out all that though.

I should listen to my own things about not having expectations LOL!

Best wishes!
Hopeful

Hi all... greetings from far far away
On the subject off letters I do think they are a good idea. When we need to say something to T and get a proper responce a letter makes the subject sound important and gets T to notice more than they often do.
As well as that I am working on a letter myself this weekend as I need to send it off to the Hospital when my P works in order to get premission to read the file they have on me as recently I have been with no warning handed over to an intern who looks a very much way out off her debth, dispite having my file with her she had not a clue as to the issues that I have or even the diagnosis which I was givin... in fact all she was interested in doing is trying to shake my hand. something I made an issue I did not like doing 2 years ago with the first P.
ND

Hey, I think there are a lot of valuable points here and I think it is really important for clients to remember that they need to be alert in case their therapist is a nutter or has poor skills or is just on the wrong track.

I just wanted to put a different point of view about one thing:

quote:

The therapist actually had the arrogance to say: "We are here to listen to their story, but not buy into it".

What? This is the kind of attitude that really turns me off to therapy.

For me, almost all of the serious growth I did in therapy was when my therapist listened to my story but didn't buy into the parts of it that didn't serve me well. I went into therapy knowing that there were some ways I was not doing a great job with my life - there were destructive patterns I was repeating but for the life of me I could not put my finger on how I kept getting into those patterns. Because according to the story I had of the way things were, I had no other options. If my therapist had bought into that story, I would still be stuck in the same patterns. I needed someone to hear me, care, but as part of that caring, see what I was unable and unwilling to see for myself. To be specific, so that this makes sense - I believed that I was trapped in my marriage and that my only options for comfort, freedom and solace were to go outside the marriage. I was in denial about how destructive that was, and about the choices I really had.

So I can understand how that therapist's statement sounds arrogant if you haven't had this kind of experience, but from my point of view it sounds really caring, because it's the kind of attitude that really helped me turn things around in my life.

Hi jside & company,
your post and this forum in general have meant a lot to me. Im learning that its not just me who has had these experiences with therapists. Im still recovering and don't trust anyone these days. It seems to me that power abuses and stupidity are everywhere. Therapy is especially infected. Some therapists need to be right and some don't want responsibility, so they blame,twist the truth, or push you away. I have many examples from my own therapy. I agree its important to bring this into the light.

Jones:

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I understand how it may have helped you, but I want to tell you why I think that statement is harmful.

I was telling the truth about my life, had the strength to pull away from someone who was no longer serving me, yet I'm not to be believed? This was a blanket statement. I think it's a good idea to think things through before making one-size-fits all statements. (referring to that statement I quoted)

Sometimes it is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY necessary to believe what the client is saying.

In too many instances, if you stay, the T will say you have issues. If you leave, the T will say you have issues. I say it's often the T that has "issues"... can't see beyond how they were trained enough to trust the truth that comes from the person sitting right in front of them.

So I came into therapy because external circumstances are overwhelming me and I need to be heard. I don't care how "caring" one may think it is to "not buy into my story".. the truth is that I'm an adult and I had to make some tough decisions and sacrifices, one that my therapist was not faced with, and I came out the other side of it OK, but I needed to BE HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD.

Where was my witness, my ally in this process? (of getting through a hard period in life on one's own) Instead I'm to be treated like a child, or someone who is unable to make my own decisions? Or worse yet, an intelligent woman that needs to be cut down to size so that an "honest exchange" can take place?? This is what my Ex T, and many others do.. use humiliation to get you to doubt your own perceptions.

I would, however, be OK with a a therapists operating from a perspective that they have the same bullshit detector that I do. Discernment is everyone's prerogative. A therapist cannot be lazy about this discernment, however. I think it is also necessary to give the benefit of the doubt. Nothing hurts more than seeking help and not being believed. It tears your heart out and makes you feel crazy.

That female therapist I saw a few times did offer a great piece of wisdom. I like how she shared, humbly, the wisdom she picked up along the way, and enjoyed hearing about mine. Anyway: There is Truth with a capital T, and truth with a lowercase t. My Ex T was trying to impose his truth over my truth. It would have been more appropriate to have a good old fashioned philosophical discussion about truths rather than pretend that he was speaking the Truth. The fact that he could not see it speaks volumes about his lack of wisdom.

Here's another thought to ponder: I know for a fact that my Ex T skated through school, doesn't believe in furthering his education, has procrastinated on writing his thesis, thinks he is so intelligent that he doesn't have to study hard or try, and spends the vast majority of his downtime playing video games and watching TV because "being a therapist is so stressful that he needs to decompress". He told me these things. Literally. He bragged about it. He is an extremely narcissistic and lazy practitioner. I, on the other hand, have busted my butt to get where I am at today. (Grad school, building a business) OK, I admit, not a capital T truth, but the Truth is that our values did not match, but also that he was incompetent.

Think about this. Just because a T is supposedly in a position of power does not make them inherently more mature in real life. If this sounds like an unusual case, think more deeply.. people are not always what they seem. Professionalism is often only a thin veil that hides the real person- and many professionals are still emotionally immature underneath it all. Not all, maybe not even most, I don't know the exact number of course... but enough to be a real eye-opener.

The lesson for me? Work hard and trust myself. Period. Even though I know I am not perfect, I would rather discuss my weaknesses with a close friend, (although I still don't think this is appropriate or a good idea) ..or journal, than be run through the therapy mill again. I may truly be alone now, but at least my own energy system is now intact, and is growing stronger each day.

Oh, I am SO not buying into that line!!

Glad yours helped you, and hopefully would not be the type to make such a broad statement, because it IS inaccurate. No T is going to have some kind of magical truth that is going to take precedence over mine.

Thank you.

quote:

Some therapists need to be right and some don't want responsibility, so they blame,twist the truth, or push you away. I have many examples from my own therapy. I agree its important to bring this into the light.

I would love to hear your examples.

Yes. I spoke the truth about myself and about therapy. I know my own truth. Unfortunately, it was shot down. I had to exit and rediscover my own truth, as I was starting to doubt it. This is not therapy. I don't know what you would call it, but it's NOT therapy.

I didn't mean to hijack this post, but I think that some things need to be said about therapy that are simply not being said.

nigeldaniel: Let me know how the letter goes. I want someone to hear and understand you too, not tune you out already by assuming the position that a client's story should not be bought into.

Hi number9,

Thanks for saying more about the way you see this - I appreciate hearing more about where you're coming from. I want to say first of all that I think it's really admirable that you did pull away from a destructive therapist - it can be incredibly difficult to do this, and I think it takes great courage. Also, it sounds like he was awful. I hope it didn't sound like I was saying you shouldn't be believed about the value of what you did, or that your therapist shouldn't have believed you in your accounts of your life. I very much agree with you here:

quote:

Sometimes it is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY necessary to believe what the client is saying.

And I agree that the role of therapist as witness and ally should be central to what they do.

So that's our common ground. I think I understand the statement about 'not buying into the client's story' in a different way though. I see it like this: there are facts, and there are interpretations, and often people in chronic emotional pain are holding interpretations that hurt them. Like "I'm not loveable", "I don't have any choices", "people will only hurt you", "I'm no good", "everyone hates me" etc. They may play out in more elaborate ways, but that's what's lurking underneath. I've often heard therapists use "story" or "narrative" in this sense, to refer to this level of interpretation. So it might be that there's a little bit of therapeutic shorthand being used in that statement (or that therapist was also a dick - also possible). But if it was that kind of shorthand, I think this is the level where there's no conflict between believing a client, believing IN a client, and 'not buying into their story'. And because we've pretty much all picked up some less-than-constructive beliefs along the way, I do see it as part of every therapist's work to stay alert to those beliefs and to find ways to counter them as an ally. What good would a therapist be who shared all those negative beliefs? That would also be destructive.

I think one of the things that sometimes makes therapy really hard (bad practitioners aside) is that it's easy enough to confuse one's self-beliefs with one's self. So when a belief is being challenged or isn't endorsed, it can feel like WE'RE being challenged and not believed. If the belief is core to us, it doesn't seem to matter if it's destructive - we'll still get defensive. I know whenever my therapist seriously challenged my beliefs about my world (e.g. that I had no major role in making my marital conflict - a belief I held without ever putting it into those words) I f*ing hated it. Hated him, more like, and kicked and screamed and quit therapy a lot. But because he was pretty good at demonstrating he was my ally the rest of the time, we got through it. When you're IN that, though, it's very difficult to tell if someone really is your ally or is the worst therapist on the face of the earth. I think this is why it's important to talk about both possibilities.

Thanks for your reply.

I respect your perspective and how you have been helped by having someone "challenge" you. If it all turned out well for you, that is good.

But that phrase DOES NOT sit right with me.

Incorrect assumptions were made by my T based on the sentiment of the above statement that my "story" is not to be believed.

My first step in healing was to come to the understanding that I needed to stop blaming myself. So although I do understand what you are saying, to have a T enforce the belief that I played a role in my past conflict. ...that it was somehow my fault, is only going to be more destructive. I was so accommodating I nearly lost myself, and there is nothing I could have done to please this person, so I made a very wise choice and left, and chose not to blame myself or to wonder what I could have said or done to make it all "good".. because there is nothing I could have said or done to make it any different. This is how I know it was about that person, not me. BTW, that conflict did not involve a marriage, I still am friends with my ex..it was a healthy relationship but we simply grew apart. It involved a mentor in an organization I was in. so there are no "negative patterns" at play here. I met one good person, I met a few lousy ones.

I could have wasted hundreds of dollars to have a psychodynamic T tell me that I played a part in the conflict.. with that mentor and with my past T...and I would have ended up broke and neurotic. Instead, I'm now free, and closer to forgiving myself and forgiving them.

I have also discovered that indeed, the only person you can really trust, in the end, is yourself. I don't call this a negative belief. I call it wisdom. There are a lot of "negative" beliefs that have a lot of truth in them.

When I came to this realization, it was liberating. I'm still there.. I feel much better now, choosing to stay single. I want to work on my own life, and give back via my work.

My T "seriously challenged" that belief, (he believed that all humans need intimate relationships) but the bottom line is that I can easily live without one, I have for years, and I'm happier for it, even though it did not feel good at first. My T would tell me that I "need" to go out and socialize, and later that there was something fundamentally "wrong" with me because I preferred to stay at home, preferred my own company.

I am happier alone, I now realize. This is MY belief, it belongs to me, and I did not ask him to, nor do I want him to "challenge" it. And many people WILL hurt you. There is plenty of evidence to support this theory. It happens all the time. Some are fine with this, myself included. I accept it more and more, but just simply don't have the energy for playing roulette with emotional intimacy and would rather put that energy into other areas that help the human race as a whole. To me, his "challenging" me is the equivalent of a Christian trying to convince an atheist of the existence of God. Neither really knows what the "Truth" is, but can only know what their own truths are, and this is not something that I think is appropriate to impose on another person.

Again, the statement about "not buying into a story" is a blanket statement. The person who said this should have said "not buying into destructive beliefs", so I maintain that it is an arrogant and irresponsible thing to say.

I know in my heart I am making good choices based on my values- and my values ARE a part of who I am. Our values and beliefs are an intrinsic part of our inner wisdom, our guidance system, our intuition. I put a lot of work into honing my inner compass, and this is what I trust first and foremost.

I am no longer depressed, because I left the bad therapist and was fortunate enough to talk to another T who is respectful and allows me to come to my own conclusions, regardless of what they are. I am doing more meditation in order to cultivate my own energy and continue to develop my inner compass and guidance system.

In regards to your last sentence, it has been far more productive for me to learn by living my life and bouncing it off a therapist than having to learn about life inside the walls of a therapy room, because it is up to each of us as individuals to choose our own path and arrive at our own conclusions. No T can do that for us, nor should they.

When you are IN a situation, it's also easy to go along with what the other person wants and lose yourself and your own ability to discern. I had to take myself OUT of therapy to realize what was happening, that I was being brainwashed.


I do get what you are saying, but being tied down and force -fed any "truth" by another person is about the biggest turn-off I can think of.

A good discussion is preferable. It is good, we are doing that, discussing our truths and acquired wisdom.

Jones:

Bottom line seems to be that the approach that most therapists take worked very well for you. I'm glad. But if I had known that it doesn't work for me, I would not have wasted my time or money. I have a feeling that I am not alone.

Good discussion, though. Appreciated! I had better PM from here on out.

As nigeldaniel stated, therapists and the industry as a whole needs to be "challenged" and I'm hoping that they will take this feedback seriously.

Hi Number9 - yes, a good discussion. I'm glad we both got to a better place, by different paths. And agreed - no one wants to be tied down and force-fed anything. For me, I wanted to be there, wanted to change the way I was handling things, wanted to be challenged and to try out different perspectives. And among those I tried were some that happened to work for me. So although there were painful parts, the process was very much my choice, and perhaps that makes all the difference.

Cheers,
Jones

Jones:

You communicate very well, in my humble opinion! LOL.. I'm actually thinking to myself that you seem more like the type to lead than to be led. I mean that as the highest compliment!

Thanks for the discussion, and glad you are following your path. And yes, Cheers!

And also cheers to all here. Thanks nigeldaniel for being so cool about my long-winded posts, and the original poster, jiside.

Hello number9, how has the start off this week been for you insofar.
Well I am feeling very happy today. I went out last evening and put taht letter in the post. I am sure the hospital well get it in a day or so and when my psychiatrist's hear about it I can set back and picture them sinking back in to their big ol chairs and muttering to themselves...' bugger that guy is getting ahead off himself' I doubth the ones I see have ever been challenged before giving their way off treating people. I do not know yet what the system says about been able to see ones own file in Ireland but I am sure as hell going to kick up a stink about it. In fact I half expect my first letter to be rebuffed so am preparing myself for the next stage... eeeeemmmmm not even sure what that is but I am on it.
All the best folks
ND

I want to thank you Number9 for articulating what I felt but could not express adequately. Your posts on page 1 really resonated with me, and I've been mulling over what you wrote. In general this forum has given me something I have rarely if ever obtained from T, the knowledge that I am not alone and that there are other people who have been through similar experiences, and I’m not crazy/inferior/weak for feeling the way I have. You all said as much through the sincere and thoughtful posts. And there is something very comforting about seeing your own personal analyses and conclusions. I do think there may be something inherent either in the education that T's receive, the type of person who becomes a T, or some other factor imbedded in the client/T relationship that causes these types of demeaning behaviors to come up.
Regarding what's been discussed about

quote:

The therapist actually had the arrogance to say: "We are here to listen to their story, but not buy into it".

What? This is the kind of attitude that really turns me off to therapy.

I think as with all communication, there are two parts: 1) the message 2) the way it's conveyed. So if a therapist says “I'm not going to buy into your story,” I might interpret that as saying "I'll be scrutinizing everything you say in a distrustful manner." To me that sets the stage for a poor experience. There are connotations of condescension and lack of trust.

And yet, thinking back, that accurately describes many of the experiences I've had with T's. It's almost like I've been viewed as a BS'er from the start, and therefore what I've said hasn't being taken seriously (in many occasions) unless proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And who wants to feel constantly judged/doubted?

If the T meant to say that he/she was going to look at the information and try to find patterns of thought that were destructive and help you fix them, or look for ways to help you discover healthier interpretations of events, why don't they just say that? The first message has all of these other possible negative interpretations, while the second is unambiguously helpful.

Hi Jside!

Thanks for your post too, I as well was starting to feel a bit alone.

The second statement still leaves plenty of room for a therapist to impose their values and viewpoints on an individual. To me, anything that is not specifically invited is imposing. If I want input, I'll ask for it.

I told the female therapist that I have seen only twice (I can't afford to go, or I would go about once a month)...point blank but politely that I am NOT open to "confrontation" or "challenging" of any sort. Period, end of story. She was actually more than happy to do that, as a matter of fact agreed. I'm not there to manipulate her, I'm there to tell her the truth as I know it, to take some of the weight off my shoulders.

I don't NEED another person to impose change on me. I told her that LIFE has already done that, and continues to do that, on a daily basis. My goal is to report these changes, bounce them off of her, have her give me her perspective without judging or second guessing my thoughts, feelings, and motives, and enjoying a bright, engaged, adult-to-adult conversation, which creates precisely the right environment for me to release what I need to. I AM THE ONE who decides what to release and what to hold onto, that is my god-given right.

I told her that I am a separate person, and that she had best see that and respect that or I'm out the door. (I said this with a smile, and she smiled in return) As a result, we had a couple of very good talks that resulted in my leaving feeling lighter and able to focus on compassion and vowing to never do to another person what that creep of a therapist did to me. Yes, this works both ways. It is up to me to honor and respect other people as individuals as well. In that sense, I had a great "negative" lesson. She also had some great ideas to add to the pot that is always simmering in my head. Since she was respectful of me, I was receptive to her ideas. But she also made it clear that I'm OK just they way I am. Which is true. I try very hard.

It really sucks that you feel like you are on trial when in therapy. I don't know why people stick around in these scenarios. My theory is that many are simply used to verbal abuse and don't know anything different, and therapists take advantage of it. Clients need to learn (in my opinion) to say NO. In the moment, and stand by that NO. NO means NO.. STOP means STOP. It's also useful to say "Can you please repeat what you just said? Did you really say/mean what I thought you meant?/Did you mean xxxx or am I missing something here? " Either it clears things up or gets the other person to really understand the impact of and take responsibility for his or her words and how it can be interpreted. It shines a bright light on passive aggression, because having to repeat the "barbs" can be very uncomfortable for the speaker, especially as they begin to fully realize the nasty intent behind their words.

It puts the onus on them if they are inadvertently bullying , but also gives them an opportunity to speak more clearly about their intent, in case MY interpretation is off. Now if I can only remember to do this, IN THE MOMENT.

I do think it is a sign of health that you are not afraid to say NO. You are honoring yourself, and that is a good thing! I have a feeling that you are like me, (although I cannot say for sure, of course!) that learning to honor yourself helps you honor other people, to respect their boundaries and individuality as well.

The female therapist also mentioned that yes, most therapists are wounded narcissists. Her words, not mine. She has been to some seminars that she found appalling for the same reasons we talked about: A fundamental disrespect for the client and a condescending attitude. So, maybe there is hope.

I think it is also important to remember that we are PAYING them, not the other way around. Therapists are not like surgeons....we submit to the surgeon and do what they tell us. (going under the knife is the epitome of vulnerability) I'm not able to repair my own shoulder, but I AM an expert on ME, and I am the one who is going to be doing the work when it comes to my mind, my emotional state, as well as my spiritual and existential beliefs. I have finally discovered that looking outside of myself for a "guru" of any sort is a mistake. It' MY journey.

The female T told me that she was there for me, to be hired and fired at MY discretion and will. As it should be. I'm not a difficult client, I just need that "bartender". And I'm paying a lot of money for it. At least one T out there really gets it. Having said that, if it works for someone to have a guru or even parent figure, then have at it, by all means. But let's tell the T/guru/father figure to disclose his approach so that I and others that are on the same page, can avoid wasting money and time and the shock that comes from the bait and switch.

So yes, maybe focusing on what a POSITIVE exchange really looks like may be very helpful.

I may get in trouble for this, but who are you trying to convince number9? It kind of sounds like you are still trying to convince yourself. Ok you had a bad therapist, it happens. I am glad you got out safely, but man, you sure still seem very angry. For every bad therapy experience there are many others that are positive.

My first therapy experience was with a male therapist who started to give me the creeps. I left before anything happened but was very sure something not good was going to take place. I believe one should always enter any kind of relationship, just a tad wary. I moved on to a female therpist and that is where I grew up. Now, I am not easy to work with, I know that. But she has stuck with me through thick and thin, many times when she probably could have kicked me out. But she didn't and I am extremely grateful for that. I have come and gone with her. When I go through some rough times, I return. I am going through one currently and she has been invaluable. She has always, without a fault, been respectful of me, even when I hate myself. I feel fortunate.

This is just my story. You have yours number9 and everyone else on here have their's. Maybe I read you wrong. Sorry if I did.

Becca,

I think you did. Why don't you ask some questions?


Of course I'm angry. I own it. Look at the title of the post. I'm not the only one that feels this way, and just like the posters on "Another Countdown" I want to be able to find others here who have had common experiences. I'm not posting there, I'm posting on a thread about NEGATIVE therapeutic experiences.

Anyway, I told my story, and it resonated with the author of this post, and I did have a good discussion with another person with a different point of view. I'm leaving the post as I wrote it, but will back off for a while.

Thanks.

I'm new here, but it seems to me that this is supposed to be a place where people can express themselves openly without fear of unnecessary put downs or negativity. I don't see the point in jumping into a thread for the purpose of calling out someone whose comments have been well received by the OP. Everyone here has had their own experiences with T, good and bad, and I'm grateful for Number9's insights.

((((Jside29))))

I haven't been able to read through all the posts so I'm sorry if all this has been addressed. I just can't believe the therapist had access to names of all the other T's you have seen. Isn't this a breach of confidentiality or am I missing something?

P.S. It sounded like an awful experience.

number9, I would like to offer an apology. I guess I got my nerve up when I thought you kind of left insurance companies and HMO's off the hook. I truly hate insurance companies. If someone uses them for therapy purposes, I don't at this time, the next company or HMO will blackball you for going to therapy. It happened to me. I couldn't get any insurance, as I work for a very small business. Insurance companies have negatively affected the practice of medicine here in America. Therapy included.

Again, I am sorry for offending you. I reread your post and I have mellowed on my thoughts. You are right, I should have read more carefully.

Liese,

My HMO stores records of everything, so even medical doctors, if they wanted to, could look up my entire history with therapy, including chart notes, tests, etc. and vice versa. In fact, at the appointment I referenced in my first post, my T had looked up my recent medical appts (without my permission for her to do so) and asked me a couple of questions about them. It's a little unnerving to me that any medical professional I've seen there could/might go through my entire chart at any time.

Hi Jside,

I missed this somehow. Are you in the U.S.?

I go to a group where everything now is stored on the laptop and I know for a fact that my ENT, for example, can see my notes made by the family doctor. Last time I saw my ENT, he said, after looking at my notes, "I'd be crazy too if I had all those kids." I don't know if there is a way to prevent that from happeneing because they are all in the same group but you might want to consider talking to a lawyer about your HMO releasing information.