Hi Vitaluna,
Welcome to the forums! The guidelines on friendship can vary from therapist to therapist and the actual rules can be State dependent. However, having said that most professional associations in the US prohibit a personal relatinship with a client during therapy and for two years after the end of therapy; furthermore, the therapist may NOT end therapy for the sole reason of starting the waiting period.

All that said, some therapists have a "once a client, always a client" policy (my present T does) so that the door always remains open for you to come back if you need to do more work.

The truth is that the therapy relationship only works when it is solely focused on the client's needs and that precludes having a personal relationship with the T. And there is an inherent power differential between the T and the client that doesn't ever completely disappear so it's difficult to make the transition between therapy and friendship. Almost without exception, attempts at personal relationships end up not working out and in many cases are damaging to both the client and the work they previously did with their therapist.

I know we've discussed the topic before many times on the site, I'm going to try to dig up some old posts and post the links here.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you.

AG

Hi Vitaluna,

Welcome to the forums! I know that the ethical code varies some depending on the licensure that one obtained, but I want to say that a general guideline is 2 years. It's been too long since I had that class (went to school to be a T, but never was).

I can speak to this from a personal standpoint as well. I had a T in my early 20's and I saw her for several years. She was a great T and we had a great professional relationship. From time to time she told me that she was doing something with me that she didn't normally do with clients etc., but at the time it wasn't a problem. Anyway, we ended therapy and it was a natural process. About 7 months after we ended, I made contact with her to let her know that I had given birth. She had asked me to let her know and we had a few brief phone contacts and one in person (at her house) prior to that. She came to see my new baby at my house and said that if I ever needed a sitter to let her know. She knew that I had major issues trusting anyone with my baby and I certainly trusted her! So, she babysat once or twice for my baby at her home. She had moved into a new house during my pregnancy and I have to say that it was quite strange being shown around your former T's home and seeing her bedroom and private space. Very weird. However, it all felt pretty natural as she was a "mother" figure to me and I enjoyed her company. I was the same age (close) to her two daughters and she saw much of them in me. She suggested that her daughter become my sitter and so over the next few years, her daughter babysat for my baby and future baby as well. We had dinner with my T and her family every now and then as well. I moved away and we didn't have any contact other than Holiday cards for many years. About five years ago, she called me to congratulate me on the birth of my last child. I talked to her daughter at that time as well. Her daughter and I recently started speaking again and I have emailed and talked on the phone to former T a handful of times this past year. So, for us it has been ok. It's not a super tight relationship, but it works. It does still feel like the relationship is unequal though. I'm not sure if that is the age difference and that I see her as a "mother" figure or if it was that we did T. I know I could always call her if I wanted to and vice versa. However, I have to say that it was a shock to see how my former T was in "real life" vs in T. She was much different than I expected. It wasn't bad, just different and a bit of a let down at times.

So, having rambled on about that forever....I have to say that if I had the choice now that I would not pursue a relationship with a T outside of T. My current T and I talked about this at the beginning of my therapy because I mentioned the relationship with my former T. I assured my current T that I have no interest and I would not try to pursue a relationship with her once we were finished. She never would anyway as she was not pleased when I told her about former T and she holds very tight boundaries. I appreciate that and even though I love my T, it confuses things when you change the relationship. I also would never be able to go back to my T if I needed to re-enter therapy and that is not a gamble that I'm willing to take. Of course, by the time I finish T this time I think my T will be ready to retire so that may be a moot point!

Hope that helps to answer your question.

Not trying to scare you but you might want to read about IHTS's experience: Boundaries

Thanks so much for your help, AG and STRM.

I'm dealing with the strangest therapist relationship stuff right now, and it's all so confusing. Nothing unethical has happened, but there have been some boundary crossings that have left me feeling unsure of what to do next. This is my first experience with therapy, and it truly has been very helpful to me. Even the weird relationship stuff has been helpful in an unexpected way. But I wonder if therapy with my T will ever be the same. I wonder if it's better to move on now. On the other hand, I can see how the relationship confusion could be excellent therapy material for my current T and me.

Oh, I'm totally rambling here. Sorry. I'm usually more articulate.

Any input?

Hi vitaluna, and welcome to the forums!

You are right that the therapy relationship can be so confusing, and we have so many questions. This forum is an invaluable resource for finding others who have felt the same way about what you are going through...we can even learn from each others' experiences in some cases. And the issue of boundaries is no exception. In general, if you are uneasy about what is happening in the relationship, then it needs to be discussed. You've already received some great feedback with two contrasting examples of boundary crossings - IHTS's experience which started out feeling good but ended up being very hurtful to her, and STRM's and Draggers' experiences which ended up working out. Did hearing about these experiences help to pinpoint what is going on for you? Can you be more specific about what you are seeing, and why you feel uneasy or confused about it? Not that you have to do that, if you're not comfortable...it's just that you seem to be looking for more specific feedback for your situation.

Take care,
SG

hi, Vitaluna...welcome aboard! It's nice to meet you. I think this can be an extremely confusing issue, fraught with all kinds of pitfalls and exceptions and varies from person to person, therapist to therapist. It's hard without a specific example to figure out if boundaries have been crossed for you. That being siad, I can totally understand if you don't want to say anything specific. We all value our anonymoity here greatly, that is the truth. However, I could say that if anything sexual happened, that would be a huge boundary violation, I think across the board, and would leave a person very confused, for sure, very hurt, I know that because a friend of a friend went through such a thing and it was hugely traumatic for her.
However, I know from here other times a T will make the call to cross a boundary, and it can be hugely healing thing...the thing is, you would have to implicitly trust a T before they should do such a thing...but then there is also, the "being human" factor, which confuses things more, making allowances for that... in the end, you must make the call, but I would suggest that if there is a serious boundary violation, such as sex or the therapist using you to fill their own needs in some way, you try, talk about it here to get some help...if you are able to.

Again, welcome!

BB

Wow, you're all so helpful! Thank you very much.

Here's my story:

I started seeing my T in September of last year. I'd never been to therapy before, but I was feeling more depressed than ever before and was ready to try anything. In the beginning I had my doubts that it would be helpful, but soon I could see that it WAS doing good things for me. I still felt depressed though, and after a few months, I asked my primary care doc to put me on an anti-depressant. He did as I requested, and it's been such a relief.

I continued with therapy, and over time I could feel my relationship with my T start to change. It seemed less professional - more like I was visiting with a friend. I stopped telling her certain things because I didn't want to look bad. I was also afraid that I'd inadvertently offend her. She started telling me more and more about herself - nothing big, for the most part, but still it helped to make our relationship feel more like a personal one than a professional one. I wasn't just her though. I was doing it too. I really do like her, and she really does like me.

So, for the past couple of months it hadn't seemed like we were discussing anything therapy-like. We were just shooting the breeze for the most part, and, while I enjoyed it, it really did seem like a waste of time. And I WAS feeling much better. The thing was, though, that I hated the idea of losing her presence in my life. Evidently she felt the same way, as you'll see later. During my session 3 weeks ago, I mentioned that I thought I might be ready to end therapy, but that I didn't like the fact of not seeing her again. She said something like, "Oh, I'm not so sure THAT would happen." I said, "How would it happen," and she smiled a silly smile and said, "I don't knoooow..." Then we dropped the whole thing.

That evening I sent her an email asking outright if we could see each every now and then once I was no longer her client. She answered that we could. We sent a few silly emails back and forth, then I didn't hear from hear from her again until my next appointment time.

At that appointment (which was one week ago) she told me she was wrong, and that we couldn't have any sort of personal relationship for 3 years post therapy termination. She said she didn't know that when she told me that it would be alright. I guess I was a little upset at the turn of events. I was taken by surprise, and I couldn't think fast enough to be rational. I didn't break down or anything, but I did shed a few tears. I told her then that I understand the rule, and that I understand why things have to be the way things are, but that I don't like it. I think I might have also said a few not so nice things too - nothing that bad though. I left that visit upset, but mostly okay. I woke up the next morning feeling mighty low, and the feeling lasted for the rest of the week. By the time the weekend rolled around I was feeling much better, and had resigned myself to the fact that things are just the way they are, and there's nothing I can do about it. I knew, though, that my relationship with my T would never be the same, and I was almost sure that I'd terminate soon. But I wanted to see her another time or two so that we could make sure to end on a good note. I wanted her to know that I was fine with the way things happened, and that - in spite of (maybe even BECAUSE of) all the weirdness - I really did learn a lot from her.

I saw her yesterday, and had a chance to say most of what I wanted to say to her. She asked me what I had taken away from the experience. I told her I didn't understand the question. She said, "Well, for example - and as the therapist this is just something I have to deal with - I felt like you were only thinking of yourself and YOUR feelings when we talked last week, and that made me think, 'this is the reason I don't like people.'" The comment surprised me, but I didn't have time to think about it at the time. As the day passed I realized what a strange comment it was - again, more like something you'd say to a friend than a therapy client. I think it was at that point I knew for certain that our relationship as therapist and client was completely and forever over. There's no way she's going to be able to keep her SELF out of therapy, and there's no way that I'm going to be able to avoid worrying that I'm going to hurt her feelings by saying the wrong thing. Wanna know the really cool part? I felt nothing but relief from that realization.

This morning I sent my T an email explaining that yesterday's visit with her would be my last one. I told her again how much I appreciate everything she's done for me. I let her know that I appreciate the way she tried to take control of the situation once she saw that it was out of control. And I hoped to see her again sometime after July 2013.

Now I'm here, wondering if I've done the right thing, yet pretty sure that I have. I made an appointment with a new T today. I wasn't real impressed with her style over the phone, but I'll give her try. Hopefully she'll be able to help me sort through the emotions all of this has brought to the surface. Why, oh WHY, am I always finding myself in weird relationships? That's what I want to know.

Now THAT was a long story!! Sorry for the typos and the parts that don't make sense - I'm with 6 noisy kids running around underfoot. Not an easy undertaking - I can assure you of that.

Thanks for "listening" everyone. And it's nice to meet you all.

Vitaluna

oooo, Vitaluna. I have only one thing to say and it is this...YOU DID THE RIGHT THING!!!

I don't have time to say more right now as I have a meeting in 10 minutes, but I'm sure others will have more input, and I will TRY to be back later. You are amazingly brave and coherent and I really admire your level-headedness in the middle of something like this... 6 kids...good on you! I wish I could have more, just now, I can't. But I SO want them. So sweet to have so many dear little ones, and so strong of you to accept them! Love you for it.

BB

That's supposed to say I'm WRITING with 6 noisy kids running around underfoot, which is infinitely worse than simply being with 6 noisy kids.

Just got an email from my T. Now I'm sad.

Thank you, BB. I'm happy to know that you think I did the right thing. I think I did the right thing too, but I sure am going to miss my old T. I really do like her. Or I think I like her, anyway. Ah well, life goes on.

My hubby and I actually have 8 children. They range in age from 22 years to almost 4 years. Five girls, three boys. Our oldest was married this time last year, and I'm hoping it won't be too long until I'm a grandmother. What a weird thought!! Having my children is, without a doubt, the best thing I've ever done. Well, that and marrying my husband. I hope you're able to have more kids yourself someday. How many do you have now?

Thanks again for your kindness, BB.

You are very welcome, vitaluna. Yes I second what STRM said very heartily. It sounded to me that your T was trying to get YOU to be HER therapist there. Very wise of you to pick up on that and run, IMO. And good for you, finding the courage after an experience like that, to try and find a T who understands this dynamic, how it is supposed to work, that they are there for you. Most of us have a very hard time learning to accept care from another, and it seems to be a very vital part of therapy, to also learn to ask for what you need from another...first with your T, for practice, as I understand it. So that important lesson cannot be learned if the T makes it all about them, or even kind of about them, and not you, kwim?

Thanks for asking I have so far, two "little blackbird chicks" as my friends on the forum refer to them!

I was wondering if you feel safe to tell us, why are you so sad about the email? Only answer if you want to, ok?

BB

Hi Vitaluna,
I also want to second what STRM said, that comment about it being only about you and your feelings actually made me think "then why the hell did you become a therapist." That therapy is all about the client's feelings is so basic to the setup I found myself wondering if she had actually went to school! And the fact that she didn't know about the waiting period, which I would consider Ethics 101 for a therapist. This isn't really weird, esoteric stuff that you'd only expect a specialist to know, it's the basics. I mean, the reason we pay them, is so that they're compensated for the relationship going only one way. So yeah, I have to say, leaving was an excellent decision.

But I will again agree with STRM, that there are a lot of good Ts out there and I hope you find one.

AG

PS Eight kids!! Bless you woman, you have a quiver full (and evidently more patience than I'll ever have. My hands are full with two! )

Vitaluna,

Good for you for acting on what your inner wisdom was telling you about this therapist. Hang in there!

I now say when it comes to a wacky therapist... run for the hills at the first indication of boundary violation....violation as you described is proof of the therapist's immaturity in the profession and the beginning of abuse to you.

All the best.

IHTS

Thanks everyone! I feel so blessed to have found this forum. What a wonderful group of people you are!

I was sad when I received the email from my former T because there was absolutely nothing to it. Maybe twenty words. She said thanks for writing, and that she's happy to know I made a decision I feel comfortable with. Then she told me to take care of myself, and that was that.

I was also sad because hearing from her made it all seem so final, which is really a stupid way to feel since I'm the one who made it final when I wrote to her.

I'm feeling better now though, but it's going to feel strange on Monday when I don't go to see her at 2 o'clock like I've done for the past 10 months.

Do you guys want to know the craziest part of this whole thing? I KNEW, when I first started seeing her for therapy, that something like this was going to happen. I didn't want it to happen (I'd only just met the woman at that point), I just knew that it would. I REALLY did. Does that not say something about me?

Thanks again to all of you! I think I'm going to like it here!

VL- (may I call you that?) I don't think there is anything stupid about the way you feel. No, not in the least. And I would feel exactly the same... Yet you did the right thing. Just try, not to beat yourself up for all the feelings it will bring up in you. Try not to think of yourself as stupid for feeling the way you do, because, that is taking the blame on yourself. I know, I know, easier said than done, but it is not your fault that you have these feelings, nor is it your fault that your T wasn't very safe for you to go to with those feelings. Do you have a new T that you can process some of this stuff with? I know you said you had, but I wasn't sure if it was a permanent thing, or you had settled in yet.

Take care or yourslef...must be hard to find a minute, I know, but be kind to yourself. In your thoughts at least!

BB

ps, you say that you knew something like this would happen...did you expect that it would become a relationship that was based on you meeting her needs, you mean, or do you mean something else? The short answer to your question "does that not say something about me?" is that yes, in fact it DOES say something about you...something that you probably need to find out about slowly under the guidance of a caring therapist who is there for YOU, to help you do that...the long answer to your question would involve all the reasons why that does NOT make you a bad or flawed person. Rather, I would suspect, a hurting person.

Hugs,

BB