quote:

Originally posted by yakusoku:
...I just go to trying to support (while feeling like I fail at it) and relating to others and not sharing my own stuff and not reaching out for support when things are $#!+, because I am a horrible attention-seeking person if I have any inclination to be vulnerable and open myself up. I feel like I'm going in circles trying to figure out why I have never been able to connect with anyone without making a relationship all about what I can give, how I can take care of another person...and every time I try to learn to receive or just be OK with needing support from other human beings, I end up in a self-loathing spiral or internal battle. I couldn't connect with my parents. I can't be authentic with my siblings or extended family or spiritual family. The best I can manage is to connect as a caretaker ...What is the point of living like this, really?

Oh I could've written this word for word.

I've been in the forum's catacombs reading most every post...so many brilliant wonderful people here, you among them.

I wish we could figure all of this out in a way that is not so horribly confusing and painful, at least I assume it's painful because frankly I'm just numb.

I won't ever be able to express myself so eloquently as you and all of the others, but I just wanted to add my "ditto here" to Monte's.

This sucks so much.

quote:

Originally posted by deepfried:
...and this is going to sound pathetic and cliche but you've got to be able to be vulnerable and kind to yourself first.

DF (and Yaku!),

This is what my T has mentioned to me. We need to learn to love ourselves (talk about cliche! lol). But I understand his point, and yours DF.

(((( Yaku ))))

That is one vicious judge you have there in your head. If it’s any consolation I know those accusations well.

What might be reassuring though is you are at least able to differentiate and at times see that it’s a negative voice/part out to destroy you and is NOT the truth. And that you can bring yourself to post about it here, means you have a great deal of strength in opposing it. It’s not easy to recognize that accusations experienced as coming from others can often be projections so good for you for posting despite the nasty messages in your head.

I can also relate to the having to give to and caretake others as being the sole grounds for having any kind of relationship. Can I say though that I don’t think it’s necessary to make it either/or. You don’t have to stop giving/caring in order to get for yourself, nor do you have to set aside your own needs in order to give. If you’re trapped in a pattern of endlessly having to think of others and putring them first, maybe it would be possible for you to start ‘taking’ (asking for what you need and want) within that pattern, rather than having to step outside of it? Risky, but potentially doable, whereas trying to get rid of the whole pattern all in one go is only going to feel very threatening.

I wish I knew of some way that would help you get yourself out of the hell of disconnection and isolation you’re experiencing. Just hang in there, and if you can’t feel connected with T in next session, try not to beat yourself up over it, it’s where you’re at. Maybe allow HIM to help you with it, rather than feel like you have to manufacture connection all by yourself?

Sorry bit too much advice giving here

Hope you feel more in control very soon.

LL

((((((Yaku))))))

quote:

every time I try to learn to receive or just be OK with needing support from other human beings, I end up in a self-loathing spiral or internal battle.

I go through this exact same cycle. Like Monte said, we are in therapy to learn that it's ok to receive, that it's ok to have needs. But it's going to take a long time. Even just finding yourself able to accept small little things that your T offers is a huge step. We have to learn that even if we do accept what our Ts offer, they will still be there and won't leave us because we were in need.

I've told my T so many times that I am "fundamentally flawed" and that I just don't see the point in trying to chance when it's all for nothing. And every time she tells me that she just doesn't believe that. It's the same for you, Yaku...I don't believe you are fundamentally broken although I completely understand how convincing that belief can be. Just try and share as much as you can with your T, even if it feels completely wrong and unnatural. Eventually, it will feel ever so slightly easier (for everyone).

Good luck tonight.

(((((YAKU)))))

I've often felt the same way. Oftentimes it seems so hard for me to connect. I don't know how I used to connect, how I used to talk to people but somehow it seemed easier or I thought I knew what I was doing. Now that I'm aware that I was seeking everyone's approval, I try not to relate on that level anymore but don't have the new skills or that new wonderful sense of self yet in place. It's a very frustrating place to be. I compare myself to all sorts of people and always put myself at the bottom. I get sad and frustrated too.

But the T's out there seem to think we can do it and we will do it. I know sometimes posting gets hard. It gets hard for probably all of us sometimes and lately things around here seem quiet and so it may take people longer to respond. But hopefully it helps to know you are not alone in your struggle.

xoxox

Liese

Yaku, Please continue writing and sharing about these inner issues - even if you think it isn't worth it and certainly don't delete them. It wasn't until I was reading your thread and felt such a similar feeling. I hadn't realised it until reading your words and your painful experience.

You are helping too many people - me - number 1 on that list, I really need you to keep sharing. Never think anything you write is whining. I appreciate your sharing but I am sorry that you have to go thru the pain.

((Monte)) I can tell you understand. One thing my pastor and I keep working on together is to keep me reminded about how many "one another" statements there are in the Bible and how impossible it is to "carry one another's burdens" or "pray for one another" or "encourage one another" if you do not share the reality of where you're at. So, I keep pushing to do it, but I just feel all I can manage to do is dump all over people in text, because receiving care in person literally makes me freeze as if I'm under some sort of attack. At our retreat, one of my best friends (he, his wife and kids lived with us for a while last year) broke down and shared with the group big financial stuff and some SU feelings he had been having. I thought...he is so brave. I couldn't do that. I wanted to share my stuff too, had been trying for the whole ten minutes to work myself up to it, but I after he shared and we all gathered around to just support him, I heard, "You just want attention, keep your f---ing mouth shut." Thanks for your thoughts and prayers and especially the advice on expectations. Tonight, I am just hoping for "safe." You are an expert at accumulated value, and what you have accumulated is SO beautiful for me to witness, so I will trust you!

((DF)) Thanks so much for taking the time to give input and relate when you are going through a lot yourself. I really appreciate all the practical advice you shared. In terms of using the band as group therapy, the problem is that I only play about once a month usually, if that, so we're not getting together on the regular. I have tried to share this stuff with my bandmates like three different times, and have only managed to do it with one of them in person. And when I do it, it's all academic. I can't manage to be vulnerable with my feelings. Hell, I can't even manage to HAVE feelings when I am trying to talk about my stuff. So then, because I am so dissociated from them, it feels like I am telling a lie to say, "This is all very scary and hard and I feel alone and want to die." So, I downplay it all or shrug it off, because that's how it honestly feels at the time.
I could join a community group at my church, but the people in the one I might join don't feel safe. One is the wife of my friend who stayed with us last year, one other knows about my diagnosis, because I will be watching her kids for a month this year...but, she and her H are really flakey (like, get all excited about something for like a month and then fall off the face of the earth and never follow up until it comes up again years later). So, I could risk to share with them, but I think just the fact that it is a group of women is making me feel unsafe. I may join the group or not...still trying to make a decision there. I'm also wondering if maybe my insurance covers any group stuff, but I will wait until I hear back regarding my SCA first before asking them more stuff. My T said SCA sounds good, but when I talked to the HMO, they said, "If we find anyone else who could treat you, we'll deny." There are four in my area who do dissociative disorders, but two were non-responsive and one sent me stuff on demons. The fourth is just a counselor, not a T or P, so I didn't call her. Crossing my fingers there. So, group therapy might be an option if the SCA goes through or if it is covered by my insurance. Do you have any recommendations on what sort of groups to look for, though? I really have no clue where to start.
Thanks for the encouragement and the reminder that it's not something I can just expect to happen, but something that needs to be worked at. I do think I am coming along a bit with being kind to myself these last couple of months. I think my main challenge now is evaluating who is safe and unsafe in terms of sharing. I have had a couple recent experiences with botching that pretty badly. I feel like maybe my intuitions are badly skewed there. I need to make a checklist or something, LOL.

((hemlock)) Thanks so much for relating. Ditto actually means a lot, because not being alone in these feelings is a way of realizing I have a connection. I can very much relate to your numbness. Sometimes, things are acutely and excruciatingly painful and other times, there is just no feeling there at all. It can get really confusing. By the way, I think you express yourself perfectly well! I appreciate your compliments, although I rarely feel eloquent myself, so I can understand not feeling about yourself the way others see you.

((LL)) Yes, your relating is a consolation, just as I said above. It is the connection of not being alone in something. Maybe I am not fundamentally broken...just broken in a way that is common to people with similar experiences. Yes, experiencing those accusations as coming from a part does make it easier to choose to act in defiance of those projections, like my post here. I went to delete it on my phone last night, sure I would find a high post count and no replies and found it had already been replied to. And then so many of you reached out to relate and support and I was able to fight that "voice" a little bit more.
I like what you said about taking risks within my current pattern rather than rewriting the whole system from scratch right now. I feel I have been doing that a bit. I guess, what I really feel I'm lacking is the ability to FEEL the connectedness that intellectually I know is there when I have risked sharing or needing from others. Thanks for the reminder not to beat myself up about tonight's session. My poor T says every week how connected HE feels and I just feel, "What is wrong with me that I can't feel that?" Ugh...I sometimes wonder how he does not get so sick of me that he wants to quit practicing in my area and change his phone number in order to not have to deal with me anymore. Please don't be sorry about the advice. I really appreciate it!

((kashley)) Thanks for reminding me that accepting from my T in little ways is progress. I went from not feeling like I could text him, panicking about every little thing he offered, taking care of the time boundaries myself...to just accepting that those are things he wants to do for me and being more-or-less OK that he gives me extra time and care, because he sees a need and wants to meet it. I panic now and then about it, but before I would not have even been able to let myself have those things, no matter how badly I needed them. I will try to share tonight. Sometimes, I wish he would just drag it out of me, though.

((Liese)) Thanks for relating to me. I don't know if you're the same, but the way I used to connect was just by unconsciously gauging the expectations around me and meeting them to the best of my ability, perfecting that balance until I was confronted with the incident in my family that made meeting one set of expectations meant failing another. I think without that crisis, I might have been content to continue living that way forever! It's exhausting, but so safe if you can manage it! I do appreciate you taking the time to post. Things have been very quiet around here lately and in typical fashion, I've been hiding under the assumption that I somehow "broke" this forum all on my own. Apparently, I have a bit of narcissist in me too, assuming I have THAT much power in the world. I think I read something about that in another thread once that children of narcissists develop a sort of negative narcissism, where they believe themselves responsible or at fault for everything that goes wrong, as if the world revolves around them and if they aren't perfect, everything will fall apart. Yeah, that would be me. So, sorry for acting that way. I'm sure it can make people go "seriously?"

((SomeDays)) Thanks so much for responding on my thread. We haven't gotten to know each other much yet and I appreciate you taking the time to reach out to me! I am glad you feel helped by my sharing my struggles, but I'm sorry that you have the same experience. I hope to hear more about your own experience as well. Your sharing blesses me, so please continue to do so!

((BG)) Crossposted, so edited to add here. Thanks. LOL, I actually do talk outloud to these voices sometimes (though usually aloud, because I think others will think I'm nutso too!). You know what works best for me is not to actually fight them, because they fight back! What works best, when I can remember to do it, is to tell that voice stuff like, "It's OK. I know this is hard and scary and risky, but it will be OK." Thanks for reminding me that I have words that sometimes work for that! And also, thanks so much for having hope for me. Sometimes it is very difficult to carry hope for yourself, so when others lift you up in that way, it can really make a difference. Thanks to you and everyone!

DF - Thanks for the advice on finding a group. There was only one therapist in network that does DBT, but maybe I can find a decently priced out of network group if my SCA goes through. I should know within 5-9 days about whether it has gone through. I will be really pissed if it doesn't, considering all the reps have said, "No, you don't need to prove why you need your T, they just need to agree to work with our policies and rates." Then the case manager contradicted that. If it fails, I may appeal, just to say, "F--- you guys for wasting so much of my T's time." Then, switch to PPO for open enrollment if it will save us any money.

Yeah, I do go too fast with sharing sometimes. As far as diagnosis goes, the only people who know right now are people who are a part of my support team (pastor/wife, and those friends who lived with us), people I had to tell because I'm going to watch their kids, and another person I recently voluntarily told. Though, I did get accidentally have another set of friends find out, because H assumed I had told them. The demon therapist was an example of not evaluating safe people...but, I guess how else do I find out if she has experience without asking that question directly? Now, that I think about it...I can't even imagine what I would want to share with people. Most stuff just seems like an overreaction or underreaction if I try to say it. What IS a normal reaction? Still not sure I get that.

YAKU,

I have these feelings that nobody wants to read my posts too. Sometimes I stop writing and delete. But the times that I do post, I am always so happy to read all the responses...especially yours. Thank you for all your support!

I'm reading a book on shyness right now call "Shyness, a Bold New Approach". It sheds a lot of light on these feelings that I am not worth other peoples time. This is something that is in my head and more than likely, people probably enjoy my unique insight. We always want to hear what you have to say.

Thanks again Yaku.

-Stuck

((Stuck)) Thanks so much for sharing in my thread. I have never once thought that about your posts, but I can understand projecting that sort of thing, because I do it literally all the time. I really appreciate you visiting my thread and also you recommending the book. I find it hard to describe myself as shy, because when I say that I am shy or anti-social, every single person I have told that to, without exception, tells me I'm not or gives me a confused look. I guess, because I can be (academically) articulate, people equate that with me being outgoing, which I emphatically am not...and one of those reasons is definitely that self-worth issue you have pointed to. So, thanks for taking the time to counter my own internal speak. I appreciate it!