quote:

but then maybe all DX’s are like that, ignoring the REAL issue (which is how we FEEL and the stuff that goes on in our heads) and focusing on external manifestations of commonality in order to come up with boxes and labels and models and the like.

That's the sense I get-- that diagnostic criteria center around behavioral manifestations much more than felt reality. But maybe just knowing the label your P thinks fits could be a jumping off point into research that may prove clarifying or useful to you?

I am sorry you are frustrated with the diagnosis. That seems understandable. Wish I had something more useful to say.

((((Lampers))))

You and me both it seems. Yes T and I both seem to agree that I have AvPD although she's loathe to label me as such.

I have a couple of very good websites for people suffering from AvPD which I can PM you; or indeed post on the o.f, if you'd like to take a look at them, although from your other posts I think you might have already seen them.

I don't know about 'incurable' but I'm sure it's possible to alleviate some or most of the worst aspects to make living with it somewhat more bearable.


AV.

Hey,

after AV showed me the link and i read it up, i was shocked to just like you because i think i might have it too!!

We sail in the same boat.
I don't have a shrink but i agree with AV that i don't think it is 'incurable'

Hope you get through it!

Hi AprilK, good to hear from you again



yes I remember sending you the link now and i hope it was useful to you. It is quite shocking when you read so much and think 'that all applies to how I live'

I'm sure there's hope though; we'll get there; you, me, Lamplighter and all the others in our boat.

Aww, Lampers

Getting a diagnosis can be such a crap experience. For what it's worth though, the DSM is just one opinion and lots of T's completely hate it. Plenty of people have recovered from disorders which at one time were seen as "incurable." In my opinion, what matters most is not the diagnosis but how determined you are to get better and how much creativity and dedication you can put into healing. You have shown plenty of persistence already and I trust that you will keep going and learning and improving, and that is what matters in my opinion.

Hi LL,

Don't know if my opinion will be welcomed but as always, I do believe in you. As BLT stated, the degree of persistence and determination you've shown is off the charts and that's the most important thing.

My T has also mention AVPD as being part of my setup although he says I have a little bit of everything. I do see my avoidant tendencies though.

I haven't done the reading you have on the diagnosis but have a question for you. Is it possible that stuff was written before the recent surge in attachment research? To me, ttachment therapy seems pertinent to someone with an AVPD and sounds quite promising. Maybe all that doom and gloom stuff you were reading was written from a very different time in psychological understanding.

Hope all is well.

(((Lampers)))

I think both BLT and Liese have it pretty much
spot on. Attitude and determination are the main
weapons even if there is no magic 'cure'. I haven't
known you too long but from what BLT and Liese
say it seems you are more than able to see this
through. Attitude determines altitude remember.

I didn't think I would make much headway with it
to start with but with a patient T; a bit of
effort on my part; I am taking baby steps into
it and there does seem to be a bit of the
'snowball' effect too as all the individual
baby steps gather momentum.

(((avoidant)))

It was great help thank you

Yes, we will.
Together we can all overcome it!
I'm sure of it

Aw thanks for the hugs and support guys, very much appreciated.

AV... lol... just as I typed out your name then I suddenly realized what I was writing, avoidant, hmmmmm as in avoidant PD LOL I am SO SLOW. And I think you even explained that way back when you first popped up on the forum

Hey I'd love links to websites, yeah you might have some that I've already trawled through but maybe you also have other links that I haven't yet found. Post them here if you could because other people might also be interested (remember there are lots of silent readers around the place.)

BLT you're probably right, in that none of this stuff is ipso facto 'incurable' I suppose I'm feeling pretty defeated by finding myself falling into categories of pathology that seem to be peripheral (for instance, BPD now has a ton of research behind it and a very specialized treatment in the form of DBT. No such thing for a number of the other PDs.)

Draggers and Held thanks for being there and big hugs back to you . Held yes that's a positive way of looking at it, using the dx as a jumping off point. Thank you.

Aprilk I'm sorry you feel you fit into this disorder too , and thanks for your support too.

Liese, OF COURSE your reply is welcome . And that's a good point you make and alleviates a bit of my defeated feeling - you're quite likely right, that the stuff I'm reading is old hat and been around for donkey's and just gets repeated from one site to another without taking into account advancements in psychology and neuroscience. And it does make a whole lot of sense that attachment theory would be relevant to AvPD - after all from what I understand of the disorder (ack horrid word) the avoidance is coupled with a desire to connect (so major form of torture in other words!) and that seems to me a pure attachment issue...

So ok, AvPD - hm, no wonder I'm happier relating to people on the internet than in real life. Sad though. I'm still not sure about this at all, I never seem to quite fit the criteria snugly enough to come way feeling like, YES that's me (as you did, Aprilk).

But maybe I'm in denial? I really really resist the notion of my set up being entirely and only about fearing criticism and rejection and abandonment - though obviously I do fear those things to an extreme degree. I do understand that a dx isn't the be all and end all, so why am I feeling like suddenly I'm not me anymore but just this short collection of highly negative behavioural characteristics? And I suppose I'm not the first to feel this way about a dx and won't be the last, but man it's upsetting me .

AV how do you feel about that as a dx? Interesting that it's not been given to you as a fixed dx but sort of tacitly assumed. Are you happy enough to accept it and how do you deal with it? Lol that's the biggie isn't it, how do you deal with it. In 50,000 words or less

Thanks again everyone

LL

Oops cross posted. BBS.

Yeah AV, I agree BLT and Liese have made some good points - and yes I am nothing if not determined (35 Ts and counting... lol.) I suppose what's bothering me is that I'm not convinced this dx is comprehensive enough to cover what I think is wrong with me. And I'm struggling because if I bring myself to accept it as valid, somehow that means whatever else I think I've understood about myself, sort of gets thrown by the wayside... not sure what I'm trying to say here. I think it's that I don't feel properly heard, or seen, or whatever... (by T I mean.)

I should take myself off and read up some of the AvPD forums, see what other people with the dx are like and how they deal and what they think. At the moment it all feels a bit cardboard cutout to me I've suddenly become two dimensional

LL

quote:

But maybe I'm in denial? I really really resist the notion of my set up being entirely and only about fearing criticism and rejection and abandonment - though obviously I do fear those things to an extreme degree.

For what it's worth, I consider this a positive thing in a way. If your problem is all about fear, then you can learn to work with the fear and move through it and that will pretty much solve the problem!

I also (as do many people) fear criticism, rejection and abandonment (though maybe to a lesser degree) although I did not get diagnosed with a PD, just "insecure attachment" according to my T... And I have been able to work with it slowly and get better at connecting without fearing those things as much. It's possible! Don't lose hope!

(((((( BLT )))))) Thank you!

Yeah it comes down to fear doesn't it? Maybe this is all about knowing what the fear is of, in more concrete forms. Different degrees of fear but same 'treatment'.

Hi LL,
Just wanted to say I completely understand you being upset. I think any box that people try to put me in might feel an incomplete and impersonal reflection of who I am.
I tend to ignore stuff that I don't find helpful.. but perhaps come back to bits that might help me work on stuff I find difficult.

Sorry can't be more helpful... But I do understand where you're coming from.

(((Lampers)))

Wow; you've posed some pretty tough questions for me there!!

Easy bits first then. These are two of the best sites I've come across for information on AvPD, but as was said earlier I can't vouch for how up to date some of this stuff is.

Avoidant Personality Support Group

There is a link to an in depth article from the home screen of this one called Brand New! Articles, plus you can enjoy the penguins!!

Out of the Fog - AvPD

This one from the Fear,Obsession,Guilt website gives a good insight into the disorder, but alas no penguins on this one

How do I feel about it as a DX? Overall, I guess I'm happy with the diagnosis, tacit or not. I think I was looking for a name for what was wrong with me, just as you would with a physical illness. My logical brain; I'm a qualified engineer; was looking for the logical answer; a box to put the problem into, so then it could be analysed and dealt with. I could investigate it and research it like any other problem and find the answer to solving it. The trouble was, it's not as easy as that.
When I started looking at symptoms of various PD's I could associate with some of the symptoms of many of them, as I guess most people can to a degree. There were so many overlaps between them, and blurring of the edges that it was hard to know which fitted my personality best. It was the sheer number of symptoms of AvPD I could associate with and the degree to which those symptoms affected my daily life that led me, and T, to come to the conclusion, that that was the best fit. I may be wrong, but I guess almost every person on the planet can identify with 'some' of the symptoms of disorders, but it's only when the number and severity of those symptoms go beyond what is considered the 'norm' that a person is labelled with a PD. So yes, I'm happy to accept that DX and it's given T and I something to work on.

So; how do I deal with it? We started off working on the social phobia/lack of self confidence stuff first. Some of these first baby steps might sound pathetic to some people but to me they were pretty big steps to take. Things like making eye contact, saying a polite hello to someone, asking for the time; all things that worried me through fear of ridicule or rejection. Then we stepped it up to me going into busy shops on my own and browsing without feeling too self concious or awkward; going into a coffee shop on my own for a coffee; going into Subway or Burger King for a bite to eat on my own. All things that scared the c**p out of me at first. One of the biggies was T getting me to go and see a movie on my own; okay I went on a midweek afternoon when it wasn't too busy but I did it; and Skyfall is pretty good Talking to people has been a revelation really. I could go days without talking to anyone other than W, or myself; but gradually through both internet chat on here and face to face chat; I've gained in confidence and whilst I'm not the chattiest person in the world I'm far less anxious about being made to look or feel a total idiot than I was. I still don't like bigger groups or large meeting situations but maybe that will come.

Another thing T got me to try was this. I always used to dress to fade into the background; so that no-one would notice I was there. T asked me to go and buy a pink tie and wear it to work; so I bought one. W was shocked and I was worried I'd never have the bottle to wear it. But wear it I did, and boy did I feel self concious with it on that first time. But then I realised that no-one had critised it or made me feel stupid for wearing it, so I wore it more often. Then T got me to progress to brighter shirts, rather than the blue or white I used to stick to - NOT pink, I haven't got that far yet! , but purple or even black with a bright tie. I felt that everyone was looking at me when I first wore them but in truth they weren't, and in fact I had more compliments than put downs.

All these seemingly unimportant baby steps have greatly increased my confidence levels and given life a whole new meaning. I know there's a huge way to go yet, but I can idly chat to a stranger for a minute or two at the bus stop; I can pop into Starbucks for a coffee if I'm thirsty, or McDonalds if I'm desperate , or see a film if I fancy it. All things I couldn't have done a year ago. There's still plenty of things I fear doing on my own, some of them I might never do, like speak in public or go to a posh restaurant on my own, but who knows.

I think it is a determination to step outside of your comfort zone and push yourself a little each day; break out of routines you've had for years; do something, anything, a little different to what you've always done, that slowly helps me to deal with it.

Phew, I know you said 50000 words or less Lampers; I must be pretty close to that, having bored the arse off everyone with all that!Sorry

Thanks Iris for your support and understanding ((((( Iris ))))), and ((((( DF ))))) again (lol I love the notion of your having a string of letters after your name educated at the school of hard knocks with degrees from the university of life.)



And AV, my god don’t be sorry man, that was a brilliant post and thank you so much for taking the time to write it. I am quite seriously bowled over with admiration for you

I love the story of the pink tie, I think you’ve explained beautifully how that sort of baby step works. And it’s a real pleasure to read this:

quote:

All these seemingly unimportant baby steps have greatly increased my confidence levels and given life a whole new meaning. I know there's a huge way to go yet, but I can idly chat to a stranger for a minute or two at the bus stop; I can pop into Starbucks for a coffee if I'm thirsty, or McDonalds if I'm desperate , or see a film if I fancy it. All things I couldn't have done a year ago

This is really good to read

It’s funny isn’t it, how some of the things it cost you a lot to make yourself go and do, you automatically think they’re no big deal to others. But I suspect that something like going into a coffee shop alone, there’s not a lot of people would be totally comfortable doing that. So it is a big deal, really .

Got me thinking too because as I read what you have been doing, I was thinking, hm well I have no problems going to shops alone, having a coffee alone, even eating alone – except that if I’m honest I CAN do it, but I don’t LIKE to – it does make me anxious and I only do it if I’m deliberately overriding the anxiety and fears of what the whole world thinks of this saddo sitting in a caf or pub alone… which I’ve always understood to be my paranoid way of thinking and therefore pathological and irrational and so having to be overridden.

Now I’m seeing that maybe the way I feel isn’t so off the planet abnormal really and instead of pretending I don’t feel unbelievable anxiety and therefore not getting the benefit of doing these things because the anxiety isn’t conscious and therefore not being ‘exposed’ and overcome, I can take courage from someone like you who has done these things in the full face of that anxiety and as a result have lessened its grip on you. You are an inspiration AV!

quote:

I could investigate it and research it like any other problem and find the answer to solving it. The trouble was, it's not as easy as that.

Lol yeah this was how I thought it would be finally getting a dx, maybe it still could be like this if I get over my resistance to the nature of the dx. I must say that it does make it a bit easier to put the whole thing into some sort of perspective, having a formal dx I suspect will stop me running around in little circles changing my mind every day about what’s supposedly wrong with me – as you said, finding aspects of yourself in just about every dx.

Why is it not as easy as that? Has having the label not helped you understand yourself better and find ways of dealing with it? I get that it’s not quite as straightforward as solving a mathematical or engineering problem , but it does sound like you’ve been doing a damn good job of doing some classy solving anyway.

I’m glad you’re comfortable and happy with the dx too – that’s got to make a big difference doesn’t it – compared to someone who resists the label (like I am at the moment, though obviously the simple fact I’m researching it says that I’m already accepting it on some level.)

You said you started off by working on the social phobia/lack of self confidence first – what else is there to work on? Was that the easiest, or did you begin with that because it was the most urgent and debilitating? And was joining the forum another baby step? I can see how the internet could become a haven for AvPD’s, but equally, it’s a damn good way to make contact with real people without the overwhelming anxiety of face to face interactions.

But I’m just being curious, no pressure to answer these questions, as they could be a bit exposing.

Thank you so much AV for sharing all that, it’s amazing and has been really helpful to me too.

(((((((( AV ))))))))

LL

p.s. Thanks for the links too, I shall mosey on over now and check them out. Penguins or no penguins!

Had to think a bit about this - about whether getting and "official" diagnosis is what I want. I told my T what I had!!!!!

But she just treats and helps ME. I really think she just looks at the issues, what I am going through and how my complicate brain systems interpret things and how that affects me on a day to day basis.

Yes, the way she deals with me is different as she knows I have BPD - or the traits or that is how my brain functions - and it means that if she does or say something a certain way I will react or be triggered. I don't have a formal Dx.

This morning on a FB group I am on, a T posted something and it stuck in my mind. Here it is:

===================================
The DSM and the ICD are simply classification systems, mainly so that we have a shared vocabulary. We need to know what a colleague means by depression, anxiety, trauma etc. Despite what some people seem to be implying, they are useful when it comes to shared care discussions, interpreting new information, and even guiding clinical interviews. That's why it's so important to receive appropriate training in diagnosis, and why so-called clinical experience isn't enough. Yes, while I am treating a person, rather than a disorder, my approach is definitely guided by my diagnosis.
===================================

I think official dx matters when insurance is involved, but essentially a T doesn't need it to be formalised to help.

So..... when I worked out I was BPD - I read up on it like a crazy person. Everything I could find. A lot of it was irrelevant as I am "my own kind of BPD" and they weren't writing about ME. So i could extrapolate and work out what bits related to me.

It really helped to read up on it and to learn how other people functioned. I found the more I read the more I realised that it pervaded my life since I was young. I then read up tons about attachment, trauma, child development and worked out WHY I have it and why I think and react like I do. It helped me so much and also meant that when T and i were talking about it we had some shared knowledge and a lot of understanding. When I reacted or I thought a certain way - I could say 'ah, that is because xxxxx' and she could add to that and WE understood it all better.

What all that did for me was to give me a sense of ??peace?? that all this stuff was not my fault. Rather than all my reactions and actions and thoughts - to me - being psycho and crazy and irrational and then thinking that i was seriously mental - I now had answers. I am sure I have been kinder to myself as a result.

When people say it is a label, I think of the diagnosis as a sticky label that can be put on your forehead - well I choose NOT to have a sticker on my head..... I choose not to think of it like that - i choose to use it as an adjective - to someone who knows what BPD means - it really just describes a cluster of behaviours, thoughts and actions that I do.

I don't know too much about AvPD - so I am hoping that this story has come relevance!!!

Somedays

quote:

anyone else been given a dx that they don’t like, that feels like it’s an indictment of who they are?

totally an indictment of who i am. i was diagnosed as dysthymic with adjustment disorder and general sadness. that was my first reaction, that i was slapped with a label and i was never even allowed to attempt to disprove it. that label was planted squarely on my back and i couldn't reach the son-of-a-bitch to rip it off. it felt totally unfair. i think with time i've accepted it. i've always had issue with labels and labelling people. i don't think it's fair, but on the other hand i recognize it's value, if used honestly.

Lol SD about telling your T your own dx - but then you know yourself best don't you and if something fits, then it fits.

I get what you mean about you and T having a reference point in common - I guess that's the advantage of a dx (as in the bit you quoted) that it's a kind of shorthand for common characteristics and ways of seeing the world that can actually be helpful to refer to.

quote:

What all that did for me was to give me a sense of ??peace?? that all this stuff was not my fault. Rather than all my reactions and actions and thoughts - to me - being psycho and crazy and irrational and then thinking that i was seriously mental - I now had answers. I am sure I have been kinder to myself as a result.

This I think is what is attracting me to sticking with trying to accept my dx - that sense of there being a REASON for how I am that is not necessarily my fault and also that I won't feel so alone with it all. Maybe.

Lol maybe the issue of having a label - the sticky on the forehead - isn't such an issue with the lesser known disorders. BPD seems to have such wide bad press that a lot more people know of it, negatively. As you yourself say, you don't know much about AvPD and you're done a lot of reading around the whole issue of personality disorders, so chances are not that many other people would know of it either. Maybe I can get away with pretending it's something mysterious and glamorous after all .

SD your post was eminently helpful and relevant, thank you

LL

((((Lampers))))

Glad you found my ramblings useful. I'll try to
explain the next steps etc later on or tomorrow
if I may. I have to contend with my FOO and DW
for the rest of the day

quote:

totally an indictment of who i am. i was diagnosed as dysthymic with adjustment disorder and general sadness. that was my first reaction, that i was slapped with a label and i was never even allowed to attempt to disprove it. that label was planted squarely on my back and i couldn't reach the son-of-a-bitch to rip it off. it felt totally unfair. i think with time i've accepted it. i've always had issue with labels and labelling people. i don't think it's fair, but on the other hand i recognize it's value, if used honestly.

CD are you saying that you were given these dx's with the condition that no correspondence will be entered into? That you were just told these things without consultation or discussion or a chance to agree/disagree?

I think I would be extremely annoyed about that, it would make me instantly totally resistant and rebellious, probably to the point of walking away. Well that is, if I thought it wasn't really appropriate or didn't cover all the bases. Which it sounds like in your case you didn't feel that the assessments fitted you at all?

Though if with time you've accepted it, maybe you got to recognize that some of it did fit? I dunno there, I get the sense that because there's a big crossover between diagnoses, we could find ourselves in many different 'disorders' ack I hate that word, I think I'd prefer 'injury'. Avoidant personality injury. Dysthymic with adjustment INJURY. Does that sound better?

I agree too that there is some (if not quite a lot actually) value in having dx labels, but as you say, if it's used honestly. A lot of people are quick to use them as an indictment (eg, you're just being paranoid... .)

Thanks for writing CD, hope you're doing ok without T at the moment.

LL

AV crossposted! Thanks for popping back, will look forward to your further comments at another time.

Good luck with today

LL

LL, i originally went to get help in working through a divorce. i was NOT expecting to be "diagnosed" (i hate that word, too!). over time i have come to accept and agree with with him. i guess i've always felt different, but just thought that's the way i am, you know? people might not like this, but i do think that if you see a T and are going through your insurance company that the T needs to come up with a diagnosis if there is work that needs to be done. but again, in my case although i didn't like (still don't!) being diagnosed, i do think he's spot on in the diagnosis. i just wasn't expecting it, i guess.

i'm doing okay not seeing T right now. i think i'm actually doing some good work on my own with the pressure of doing therapy removed. therapy did cause alot of anxiety for me, but i don't like not seeing him as there was a level of comfort going to see him. thanks for your concern, LL

This is really interesting, my T very rarely ever mentions my diagnosis, infact she's only said it a few times. We both know it, but she is concerned more with how it affects me and how she can help. I'm kind of relieved and it helps to normalise things a bit, so I feel she is helping me and not my label.

(((AV))) that was a really insightful post and wow you have done so well and come sooooo far. Do you know, I think we all have a bit of avoidant in us, I know I have, and I am really impressed with how your T is gently pushing you to go out of your comfort zone and achieve what you have

(((Lampers))) thank you for putting this thread up. I hate labels really, whatever they are. They are useful for helping you, but do you know Lampers you are the same lovely person, label or not

starfishy

Just a quickie about the insurance company diagnosis. What my T tells the insurance company is not the same thing he tells me. For instance, he puts down anxiety disorder/adjustment disorder for the insurance company which does not even begin to cover all the PD's I have.

Personally, I struggled with the diagnosis thing for a long time because it does make us sound so simple as if we could be reduced to a set of characteristics. It doesn't even begin to embrace the breathing, living, changing, growing organism that I am, that we all are. Not to mention, the usually negative associations with having a Personality "Disorder". What helped me was when my friend's daughter started to have issues and it appeared as though she was having borderline issues. I'd known her at that point for over 10 years and saw her grow from a 6 year old into a beautiful and struggling 18 year old. The label helped me to understand her inner pain and turmoil but I certainly didn't think of her as her PD because she is so much more than that, so much more "alive" than that. It helped me to see where the T's are coming from when they say, "but I don't see you as your diagnosis."

PD's now represent and describe to me people who are in terrible emotional pain and living lives they really don't want to live but can't escape, trapped by the realities that are in their heads.

It will take time and wrestling to become comfortable with a diagnosis, if ever. For me, it just represented one more thing in a long line of things I didn't WANT to be. Oftentimes, a particular PD will stem from a particular attachment injury - so I found it helpful also to think of it as an attachment injury.

Peace to all who are struggling today.

(((Lampers)))

I wanted to answer the other questions you posed in your reply; and no; don't worry; they're not too exposing at all.

I think you got the point entirely about it not being 'that easy' to solve the problem. For sure, having it labelled has given me a much better understanding of myself and allowed me target my thinking and research more clearly. But it isn't like solving an engineering problem. Check 'a' - working; check 'b' - working, check 'c' - not working; fix 'c'; problem solved. It's more of a set of interrelated and interdependent problems that all have to be addressed simultaneously.

I'll try to explain, and it might answer your question on why we started with the social phobia/lack of confidence stuff first. T likened a persons life to a series of boxes. The more boxes you have in your life, the more fulfilled you are, and the less reliant on just one or two boxes you are. Think of the boxes being things like; home life; your spouse; work life; friends; hobbies; other interests; etc etc. If one of those 'boxes' or areas of your life stops working for you, you still have the support and comfort of the others to help you over it.

Essentially; for many years, I only had two boxes making up my life; work, which fulfilled on some level; and home/W which fulfilled very little. That probably explains why being made redundant a few years ago hit me so hard; but I digress. T wanted to try to get me to build a number of new boxes in my life in order that work and home weren't all I had. Also, she could see that I was living life from the outside in; waiting for someone or something to come into my life to provide happiness and contentment, and she wanted me start living from the inside out; where the happiness comes from within me and anything external is a bonus or an addition to that, rather than a prerequisite for my happiness.

To do that I had to get out there and make it happen, not sit at home and wait for something to happen. So the social phobia/lack of self confidence was the first thing to tackle. Without doing anything like going to the shops, or for a coffee or to see a film, I'd have nothing to talk about to people when I got the chance, and by going to those places I'd be more likely to meet people anyway. T was keen for me to use the internet as a tool in my healing as she's a great believer in new ideas. She wanted me set up a twitter account and a facebook account as a way of 'meeting' and talking to people in an anonymous way. Well I did set up a FB account but got so fed up with the messages saying 'x' is now your friend, and i couldn't find anybody I knew on there anyway, so I closed it down after a week. However, it did lead me to investigate forums, and that's how I found this site. I could see instantly that this was different and was keen to read and listen, and after a few weeks sign up. Lampers; it was a massive step forward coming here. Yes it was a safe place to 'meet' people and chat, but it was the effect on my confidence that i could carry over into real life that astounded me. I wasn't expecting the jump in confidence to translate so easily from cyberspace to real life; but it does!!!

What else is there to work on? Well; there's more boundaries to push. Maybe next year, checking into a hotel on my own for a day or two away from home; a small holiday on my own; perhaps going abroad on my own; becoming more vocal and active in meetings and events at work; attending more social functions, etc.

The other main area is something that I think Liese mentioned earlier in the thread; attachment therapy. I've always had problems with making secure appropriate attachments to others; like most AvPD suffers I guess. I've not read up on attachment theory yet so I'm not sure what to expect, but I'm already learning what NOT to expect. Not to expect that anyone who gives me a smile or a friendly word is going to be 'the one' I've been looking for, which has often been the case up till now. I'm already realising it's okay to chat to members of the opposite sex and see them as friends or colleagues and not a potential 'life partner'. I guess we've got work to do to see what I think relationships ought to be like; am I idealising what I think the perfect relationship is like; to learn that I can have very different relationships with different people and that we each contribute different things to each others lives. I'm only really surmising now; as T and I haven't really got into that yet, as both the transference and attachment issues with T, and problems with W, plus working on the other stuff, have taken precedence. Hope this helps just a bit.

((( Leise )) thanks for your interpretation

CD hugs to you

Starfishy thanks for your reply and your lovely words

Liese , yeah I prefer the notion of injury rather than disorder, and you’re right on when you say it’s another thing in a long list of what I don’t WANT to be. Maybe that’s why I’m resisting all the dx’s I’ve been getting so far, I really really do not want to be those things, and no matter how much I rationalize it, these labels DO define me, as how I’d be seen by people which is almost impossible to not be a reflection of who I actually am .

I dunno, today I don’t feel quite so accepting about all this stuff, so not feeling so great...



AV thank you so much for coming back and explaining more .

quote:

T likened a persons life to a series of boxes. The more boxes you have in your life, the more fulfilled you are, and the less reliant on just one or two boxes you are.

I love this, it suddenly makes me see things in a very clear and simple way and is of course, beautifully meaningful in its simplicity. Seriously, it’s suddenly brought me up short and made me realize how I’ve got at most one maybe two boxes on the go, the rest are all empty, and that maybe it’s time I started dusting them off and filling them up.

A bit like your two boxes, except that I don’t have work anymore (that’s a big minus actually, work accounts for a lot of social interaction that a socially anxious person like me would simply not seek out otherwise…)

Wow AV you really have taken gigantic steps forward haven’t you? And it’s wonderful to hear about how doing things like joining here has increased your confidence and carried over into real life. No danger of restricting your socializing just to the internet then!

I have to say it’s very brave of you to let go one of your boxes (your W) – so something has been working for you to feel confident enough to strike out on your own without her. Scares the crap out of me .

Interesting that you speak of attachment therapy – I’d have thought you have learned a lot about it and your own attachment style what with having a strong attachment/transference reaction to T. I wonder how much bearing that had on your progress – a lot do you think? I ask because I seem congenitally incapable of attaching to anyone and have never liked a single T I’ve seen – had flashes of liking for them which disappeared pretty quickly. I’ve always thought that the day I could genuinely like and trust a T and that remain fairly constant, is the day I’m cured! LOL.

Hey AV thank you so much for being so open about yourself. It’s been really helpful and I very much appreciate it.

LL

p.s. I looked more closely at those links you posted, the one which apparently has three forums I’m finding I can’t get into the Yahoo forums and there doesn’t seem to be any contact email for the site, do you know anything about that? I get the impression it’s not really a current website at all . And the other website (out of the fog) seems to be geared more to partners and family of people with PD’s so their forum isn’t much help for an actual sufferer. Groan maybe that’s a sign of the characteristics of the disorder, avoidant LOL so not even using forums...

(((Lamps)))

I haven't joined any of the forum groups from the website but I've just had a look at three you refer to. I have to admit I havent seen any new personal stories in six months or so on the home page of the website. I'm pretty sure I subscribed to their newsletter via e-mail some months ago but I haven't ever received one Maybe it's just best to see it as a source of info and nothing more.

The Yahoo groups message board seems to have had 30 messages so far this month so I guess that's still quite active and clicking on the blue 'join this group' button took me to a sign in with Yahoo or Google screen but I didn't go any further, and I couldn't see any contact details either.

It seems like you have to join the above forum first to gain access to the yahoo groups avoidant sanctuary forum doesn't it?

The Big Tent AvPD forum seemed to be the easiest to join but again I didn't try and can't vouch for how active the group is.

Maybe we are all SO avoidant we don't even want to join our own forums!!

Hi all...
I just came by this thread this evening and I must say it is off great interest to me. I can not offer any witty words about diagnosis and that, as over here in far far away its all very humdrum. All they ever say is... Anixety... yip one tag fits all and its a big bugger to deal with. By this I mean my T told me some time ago she suspected I had bipolar but the P I saw [and the 4 others in two years] do not want to say a word to me at all about anything. Even getting access to my file to see what they are saying is a task off near impossable. One has to in fact hire a solicitor/lawyer just to get the ball rolling.
Anyhow all I can think to say is if one gets a tag/name for a diagnosis would be to take a deep breath and do some home work on it later. Some people may be glad to know their is a name for their issue others may end up worried.
ND

AV thanks for checking those forums out. When I first tried to look at them I wasn’t even getting a ‘join now’ box, I went back and looked again and got the option to join. I have done so, but it’s a weird rigmarole and I’m still waiting for ‘approval’ lol. As if being avoidant isn’t bad enough, such forums make you feel even more like a pariah.



Nigel thanks for chipping in too – that’s a bit of a rort isn’t it because everyone feels anxiety at some point or another so it’s not much help having that as a blanket dx. It must be very frustrating not getting any info from your Ps about what might be wrong with you – is there any reason they won’t talk openly to you about a dx? It sounds like you’re having quite a hard time but seem to take it all very calmly Good luck with your session tomorrow.

LL

(((Lampers)))

Good luck with joining those forums; do let us know how you get on.

quote:

I have to say it’s very brave of you to let go one of your boxes (your W) – so something has been working for you to feel confident enough to strike out on your own without her. Scares the crap out of me

I had to smile at this. It actually scared the crap out of T for a while as she thought I might be getting rid of one box labelled W and replacing it with one labelled T! as I was struggling with attachment issues at the time!

Seriously though; it was the box marked W that was preventing the other boxes being filled by way of co-dependant living; and so the decision to let that box go didn't require as much bravery as you might imagine.

You're probably right in that I have learned a bit about my attachment style through the transference and attachment to T. It has had a bearing on my progress as it tended to slow it right down at times. We needed to spend a lot of session time talking through my feelings for her rather than working on the social phobia/self confidence stuff, but we're making progress.

Hello again AV - just been messing about trying to navigate my way around the AvPD forums - they are so different from the ones I'm used to I just can't get the hang of them. Maybe when I've got several hours free I'll sit down and try and work them out.

Oh you make it sound so simple! Getting rid of a box that was preventing you opening up other boxes, but that does make sense. I suppose I'm imagining myself doing that and it totally freaks me out. Getting rid of one box and then finding that the others are all empty and I'm left with no boxes at all

Lol I know it doesn't quite work that way, but I do still maintain that you are very courageous regardless of how easy it might have seemed to you at the moment.

Thanks for your support on this

LL

((((LL))))

Well, now I'm a bit confused! Both yourself and my T are saying exactly the same thing. She thinks it was a courageous thing to do as well, and now you're saying the same. She told me that very few clients of hers would have had the courage to take that action. I thought she was just being her normal lovely self saying that.

I know I only had the two boxes in my life, work and W. No boxes for family, or kids, or anything else; and the W box wasn't working for me and was preventing me finding or filling other boxes; so I would on the face of it only be left with the 'work' box. But I looked at it this way. I KNEW I couldn't continue as I was; that's what drove me into therapy in the first place; so I had to take the risk that by removing the box that wasn't working I'd somehow rediscover or uncover enough new ones to create a better life. I didn't think it courageous; I didn't really have any other option. But now you and T are saying differently; IDK.

I agree with you that the other boxes might start off empty but there is the choice then of filling them and making them work for you. I just hope that with T's help that will be the case and i have evry faith in her that it will be.

Good luck with the forums

AV I missed this post, sorry! Lol about the forums, I'm still trying to work out how to use them, will let you know what they're like once I've had a decent look myself.

Hey about being courageous, you know your comment reminds me of times when various Ts I've had have said they thought I was being very courageous for continuing to put myself into therapy despite everything - and I'd say, no it's not courage it's sheer desperation. I have no option...

So if you don't feel it's courageous, if you know that you had no choice and you're being driven by a desperation that has nothing to do with bravery or courage, well that's your reality isn't it? It doesn't mean the I (and your T too by the sounds of it) don't see you as courageous all the same - because I know that I couldn't do what you're doing no matter how unhappy or desperate I'm feeling. So in my eyes what you're doing takes a lot of courage .

(((( AV ))))

LL