Hi Shaman,
Forgive the flyby, working late but this post: Learning developmental skills: Identifying and Expressing needs discusses my going through the same thing between using the phone and emails. Hope it helps!

AG

((((SHAMAN))))

quote:

I feel it's like unconsciously provoking the familiar experience of not being heard, repeating it because it's what I know and it confirms all the shame and other negative feelings I have about myself.

Shaman, this illuminates exactly how we keep ourselves in these cycles of having a need and not getting it met. Then it makes it even harder to ask for what we need because of all the shame.

quote:

I mean, I've been texting my T when she has stated several times that she hates texting herself and I freeze at the idea of giving her a call when she insists that I can call her whenever I need to.

It's not all about us. Our T's have their preferences too. You'd prefer to text when she would prefer that you call. Like you, I find it much harder to place that phone call. It is MUCH easier to text or send that email. Maybe you can talk to her about the difficulty you have in calling and ask if it's okay if you do it until you have the confidence to call? If she says its okay, maybe that will help with some of the shame you feel?

I was having trouble dealing with my T's secretary directly and learned that I could call after hours and leave a message on his voicemail. I had told T about my difficult encounters with her but we never expressly discussed that it was so difficult for me to even talk to her on the phone. He never complained about me calling his voicemail in order to cancel appointments or ask for a return phone call so I do that when I have to. If he did make a comment like that your T did about texting, that he hates when people call his voicemail, it would be hard for me to deal with as well and I'd have to deal with all sorts of negative feelings.

Over the long haul, sorting out these difficult feelings with T has helped me identify when someone is putting up a roadblock - something I was not good at identifying before. Kind of like, "oh, I'm getting resistance here and there must be a reason." Whereas before, I'd continue to try to get my needs met never understanding why the other person was giving me a hard time about it.

Dealing with T's secretary has helped me become more assertive in terms of learning to talk to difficult people. I can call her directly now and be assertive though I still prefer not to. Sometimes I prepare myself for the call by expecting resistance from her and plan what I will say to her.

Overcoming these fears and the shame will eventually give us the confidence to talk to people directly about difficult things instead of putting them off or talking to other people about what bothers us. It should improve our relationships because we are listening better to what the other person is saying while honoring our needs at the same time. Hopefully, you and your T can work out a compromise.

Good luck! Come back and tell me if you talk to your T about it.

Hi Shaman,

I'm awful at asking for my own needs to be met. It really is a skill I did not learn when I should have and as a result when I try to do it, it feels so very clumsy. I also have mixed feelings about making myself vulnerable and I have become used to solving problems by myself.

I think because I never really knew what kind of reaction my 'neediness' was going to get (it would range from understanding and warmth to crazy levels of anger), in adulthood, I often do this kind of strange thing where I let someone know that I'm not doing so well, but I won't then spell out exactly what it is I need. It's almost as if I need to 'float' the idea to see what kind of reaction I am going to get. I feel very ambivalent about people feeling that I am too much or too needy, so often I will prefix things with "I'm okay... but" which of course is a mixed message.

It's a bit like leaving a trail of breadcrumbs and I totally appreciate that it can be baffling for the person on the receiving end of it, trying to work out what the appropriate response should be. This doesn't get played out so much in my relationship with my T, although she does comment frequently (or at least it seems that way!) that I 'hide' or make myself invisible. It absolutely plays out in my relationship with Mr Mallard though and I cannot tell you how many arguments have started with a botched communication about needs. Argh!
I think the issue is that there are two tensions pulling at each other. Wanting to get needs met versus feeling unacceptable or unworthy of care and not feeling as if having needs is okay. It leads to me often communicating those needs very incoherently!

Does that make any sense to you?

ps. Wow, cannot believe English is your second language, Shaman! I'm in awe of your command of it

((Shaman))

I think this is common, sort of re-enacting the trauma so to speak, when healing or just in every day life. That is why transference, I think, is a really helpful too for us to see ourselves because we are having reactions within a frame where the other's needs aren't really present. How are we supposed to act or behave a different way than we've ever seen or practiced? It doesn't come instantly, please try to give yourself a break on being imperfect!

Not being heard probably makes the phone terrifying. I'm terrified of the phone... I have one of my T's cell #s and I barely call because the anxiety is too much. I'm okay playing voicemail tag with my T (she always has to call me back when I ask, I can't call her instantly, I instead leave a message and it's easier after the fact if she does call back for me to choose to answer the phone or not depending on how activated I am. Anyway, I've had great terror at the idea of being seen or heard and it's taken a lot to practice that, rather than abandoning myself and not learning how and why to reach out if I need.

It's also hard to directly ASK for what we need, I think if your T is challenging you to call (and this was bloody hard for me for a while) there may be some visualization work, or something in session you can do to titrate that. Your need is for connection so hopefully you and your T can work out something that is within both of your reach. If she doesn't like texting and you insist on texting (just for example) and tell her it's the "only way" for you I think you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. Acknowledging our needs doesn't mean giving in to demands ya know? The need is not to text, it's to contact in a reliable, secure way... which she can't do in text ya know? But I understand the compulsion to do it that way... because it keeps you safe knowing what to expect. If you haven't been comforted on the phone before well yikes! what can you expect it to be like? My T and I allowed me to get used to contact by having it just one way - I'd leave her voicemail and it was assumed, unless I asked specifically, that I did not want her to call back.

Has your T ever gave you something to just hold or be with? Like a rock maybe? I used to hold those to build a connection, and hold them while I called to keep me grounded. Ultimately, you have to work up to what you can handle. Not sure if I'm making sense, but I really hope your T can attune to your need to connect and how hard it is.

AG, I’ve read your post and, as always, it has given me a better insight into what I’ve been doing. Thank you.
How’s work? Hope you get to breathe again soon!

Hi Liese, thanks for the hugs AND stressing the cyclical nature of these sorts of behaviors. I believe life just keep throwing us into these circles and the only way to get out of them is by doing something different. Which reminds me of Einstein’s definition of insanity: “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Brilliant!
About mine and T’s preferences for communication: we’ve talked about it and I do understand how she sees a phone conversation as a much better way for her to assess in what state I am compared to a text, which misses a lot of non-verbal clues and isn’t very practical for two-way communication. My big problem with phone calls was (is a bit less now) my deep fear of bothering anyone/being a burden/ exposing my vulnerability in such a direct way. She has reassured me on that – told me that when she was in therapy and struggling, it was what she’d do with her T. So I’m a bit less frightened of the phone now AND reassured that she accepts my neediness of her in between sessions.
I admire the way you’ve evolved in dealing with your T’s secretary. I hate the phone even when it comes to dealing with kind people (like my T!) I do about everything I can to avoid dealing with difficult people/issues. A genuine pushover, me .

Dear Duck, I love your choice of the word ‘clumsy’. That so well describes the way I feel when having to express a need. I’ve only recently learnt to consider this as a skill, which I love, because that means there is opportunity to learn, and grow (hurray!)

T’s acceptance and constancy deals with the vulnerability thing and that has made me better at exposing it – to her, no one else, god forbid!. My background is one of neglect: bad marriage, too many children, abandoning father, etc… I’ve felt like a burden from the womb – my mother told me, twice – how being pregnant for the sixth time (!) was just horrible for her. My father drank, was unfaithful and violent and left home when I was four. I too learnt to navigate through life’s stormy seas by myself and deal with problems on my own. But deep inside, really very, very deep, there is still this unborn craving to be welcomed, this infant yearning to be heard, this child longing for guidance.
This is not easy for me, but with an audience that is very likely to understand what I’m on about, I’m going to tell you about an experience I had during my last session.
I do somatic therapy. It’s called bioenergetic analysis and works by the principle that all life’s experiences are registered in our body and stored as chronic muscular tensions, blocked energy, etc.
Since we’ve been working together (about 9 months now), my T lets me lie down on a mattress and asks me to throw my feet
into the air, like an upset baby would, really. Sometimes I’m asked to do the same with my arms, or both together. I still feel rather silly when doing this, but, as my T casually stated once: “it works well with you”. When I do this, she may sit at the side of the bed, or holds my feet or head for containment. And yes, it works. The first time she had me do this, tears came up from somewhere deep inside and she wiped them with her hands (I melted there and then….). I’ve been crying every time when doing this.
But last time, I had this body memory. I felt like there was not just no one who could hear me, but also that the sounds I was trying to utter where lost/absorbed in some kind of gel-like muting substance/thick air. I felt completely an utterly abandoned and as if I would be caught into a whirlpool and disappear into a kind of cosmic drain and be annihilated. It was very scary and vivid. I know it was what I have felt when I was a baby. I am incredibly grateful for being able to experience this within the containment my T offers me. It’s what therapy is all about for me.

Thank you about the comment on my English. I love your language and know I’m good at it, but when I read some of the stuff on this forum, I envy you guys for not being able to ‘play’ with it like you.

Hi Catalyst,
Yeah, transference, I love it . My god, my T really brings it all out in me. And she’s soooo relaxed about it. That helps enormously, this “all is good” attitude when it comes to the expression of feelings.
And yeah, she is probably challenging me, thanks for that suggestion, I hadn’t really thought of that myself . Right now, after this last heavy duty session, I do feel like I could call her if I needed to. But I’m keeping the idea in mind about a ‘titration exercise’, that makes sense.
I don’t have anything material of hers to hold, but we do body work and I do have body memories of some profound moments where our bodies touched and sometimes I am able to recall those to feel our connection. Breathing helps too.

Am I breaking the length-record for a reply-to-replies here ?

Thanks guys, for your wise insights and experiences shared.
Take care

Shaman, I hear you on not being able to play with language thing. My German is nowhere near as good as your English and last night I wrote one very short text in response to a German friend who is coming over to visit. And I cursed my inability to be colloquial and wanted to put a joke in - but then wasn't sure whether the joke would translate... it was bloody hard work just to construct that one text. Phew!

Hi Duckie,

Can you imagine, I went to a therapist for a while last year who was specialised in brief therapy. My mother tongue is dutch, which she didn't speak at all. Ou sessions where in french and english, both of which we speak, but hell, I would not be able to do this while doing the work i'm doing in therapy now. Brief therapy was eeeaaasy, a bit like being coached.
Anyway, I love language, they tie your brains into a knot at times, and your tongue. But they also open you up to the diversity of the world.
BTW, T training was fun. They start us off gently off course. In three weeks we're off for a residential weekend (two nights and days) which promises to be intense - it's about our "life story".
See you (I really have to get some stuff done here, work is piling up and it's starting to get noticed...)

((((SHAMAN)))))

So T has reassured you that she will deal with texting?

Shaman, I really believe fear plays a huge role here in terms of keeping the status quo. I also really believe that you have a conditioned response going on there and that the more you bring it up and question it and challenge it, the weaker it will get and you will create new pathways hopefully. I've seen my ability to be assertive spontaneously IRL as I've worked through my own web of fears and distorted thinking.

quote:

I feel it's like unconsciously provoking the familiar experience of not being heard, repeating it because it's what I know and it confirms all the shame and other negative feelings I have about myself.

I don't know that any of us do it intentionally to confirm the shame but it is done at a very low level of consciousness and automatically and quickly because it is familiar and what we learned. Be gentle with yourself. You are not doing this to torture yourself.

I had a question on another thread of yours but I can't find the thread or the conversation I'm thinking of. It had to do with your T training and how you talked about being taught about a working alliance. I couldn't tell if that bothered you or not because you did contrast it with how we all see it here as a relationship. Can you say any more about this?

(((shaman))) i would like to give you a full response, but i really haven't been in a good place lately for responding. i don't know exactly what's going on with me. but i wanted to let you know that i'm reading this thread and can relate 100%. keep asking the questions, you have alot of really good people to bounce stuff off of. i'm glad you're here at psyche cafe

Hi Liese,
No, she has not reassured me on the texting thing. We’ve both agreed that it was not a good way to deal with communication when I need help with grounding etc. It’s just too inconvenient and prone to misunderstanding when it comes to two-way communication. I might still text her when I feel the need, but not when I want an answer from her. It such a case, I am reassured that calling is ok. This is a learning curve for me, and I’m happy with it.
I do get your point, you know. And of course it’s fear – it mostly is, I feel – that keeps a conditioned (and distorted) response going.
Thank you for your discerning comments, they’ve been very helpful to me to understand what I’ve been doing

About the other thread: it was in Monte’s thread ‘sorry if I was insensitive’, but I’ve started a new one with the topic ‘alliance and/or relationship?’.

Hey CD, I do hope the place you’re in is good for you, never mind the responding. You’re what comes first. So please take care of yourself.
Thank you for being so welcoming, that really made me feel all warm inside
Sending hugs

quote:

e’ve both agreed that it was not a good way to deal with communication when I need help with grounding etc. It’s just too inconvenient and prone to misunderstanding when it comes to two-way communication.

I'm glad you and your T talked about this. Even though it's hard, it sounds like it may not be what you wanted necessarily, but your T is still looking toward what you need (stability, mostly - misunderstanding makes the relationship so hard).