I learned that you have to keep you level of confiding even with your level of trust. In the past I shared too much, especially over email, and then I was terrified having so much "out there."

I think it's a good lesson in life, generally. Don't confide too much in anyone until they have actually earned your trust.

Yes. I don't really confide in anyone, as my ability to trust right now is low. I'm not interested in dumping my shit on others, anyway. (That is frowned upon in our culture) Sometimes I confide in T just to take some of that pressure off, and I regret it.

Nothing is too bad about self-protection.

I've learned though... we all think really fucked up stuff. It's just that we don't share it. We all have a secret inner dialogue. If you look at art (movies, dance, paintings) you can see all that unspoken stuff.

I'm always worried my T will use things against me, or mince words, change contexts but the truth is she isn't/can't/won't tell anyone... and if she wants to judge well she probably hasn't explored the depth of her own feelings. I had one of my Ts tell me something very profound a few weeks ago - about hate and death - and I realized... I wasn't as unique as I thought I was. Not in a bad way...but I think we all have the same types, genres of thoughts... the difference is how/when/if we share them. We all have thoughts of cruelty, and love...

Anyway... "ordinafying" (new word, just made it now - I mean normalizing) my thoughts made them easier to share because I know if I think it... someone else, probably even my T is capable of it too. It still feels hard/scary/impossible.. I share in generalities a lot. We don't have many relationships in society where we can say exactly what we're thinking and those rules apply in therapy too - we can still shock and offend our therapists thankfully though they've heard a lot. It's like comedy if you think about it... comedy is funny because comedians often say the things we are thinking/know but don't say and bring them to the surface - think that is one thing that sort of "proves" we all have creepy honest thoughts that aren't so fun to share.

As long as you can accept the things that you are hiding and they aren't hurting you, I think it's okay not to share. Not sure ifI'm making sense. I've been painting for 7hrs.

Sometimes it feels worse to share warm and fuzzy thoughts.

Hard to explain, but the more I reveal the less understood I feel. I can't go deep anymore. I'm losing my mind, I feel like I was once an articulate adult and when we talked we just clicked, he understood all the complex thought processes I had. I was sharp. My writing has since gone downhill, I feel like I've lost some IQ points. Very strange.

Now that I have gone a little deeper with T, it's just...not..working. I feel like I either cannot articulate what I need to, or we misinterpret each other's words, or he will say things like I'm "easily offended" in the same session where I'm clearly displaying my vulnerability/crying, trying to explain myself.. and we end up actually fighting.

Now I can't speak at all, I feel numb and blank, exactly like I did when I was a child and I could not articulate how I felt, but now as an adult, I know what shame is, and thought that therapy was supposed to help with that. He says that I need to be in my "non primal state" - which I think means my normal adult state of relating... which is fine, but he wants to process shame and anger??? And he tells me that I over intellectualize. Needless to say, I'm confused.

So we got close to it.. cracked open that Pandora's box a tiny bit., but I don't know why or what the shame or guilt or anger means. I have been measuring out my words, and start to speak or write, and edit, erase, have second thoughts... knowing he may become defensive (he has done this- blamed me for not trusting him, he says I resist, he has been more than patient, I'm the only one he has not been able to help, yada yada..which is not accurate) I'm feeling so hurt that I can't think of anything to say, and I can't think or speak or feel.

Sorry if this is getting off track.

I wonder if you've stayed with your T this long because you had something to learn with him about how to stand up for yourself in adult relationships with a certain kind of person. But maybe he is not the right T to help you process vulnerable stuff. He certainly doesn't sound very gentle or particularly steady to me and never has.

Good point. The first time he did this I was reduced to tears. The second time he did this, I told him that he was full of s#*t..literally... and that he is a hypocrite/is projecting his own crap on me.

Then I learned about setting boundaries and rationally stating what I needed, and sometimes it works, sometimes he still gets defensive.

So yes, we relate very well as adults, but to go back to more primal emotions/vulnerability, perhaps he is not the right person for this, and that is a good lesson in and of itself. Sad, but good to know.

Thanks, BLT, I needed to know if what I am experiencing is just a normal part of therapy.. and if I need to just ride this out or not.

You guys rock.

Processing.

Oh.. an example.

I asked if he ever became "easily offended", and he said no, which I don't buy,(the hypocrisy angered me) as he tends to get defensive about his abilities as a therapist- He has said that I'm the only one he has not been able to help, it's my fault if I don't trust him, I'm resisting, I need to "be humble and listen" to him... these are some real things that he has said in direct response to the despair I feel at my perceived/real shift in our relationship, and by my repeatedly objecting to his statements that I am easily offended. I gave his projection back to him, where it belongs, and stood up for myself. No regrets.

It seems we have moved out of the "develop trust phase" and into the "tough" part. I often want to turn back time, I felt like I was healing and making progress when he was consistently kind and reassuring. I do understand that therapy is supposed to be hard. But I feel like I'm peering into a dark pit, and instead of having someone guide me there as I look, I'm getting kicked into the hole, (this is just a feeling) or being held down and beaten/told to submit, to "take it like a man" for "my own good"- which feels Waaay to authoritarian to me. (I'm the opposite of you in that regard, xoxo)

I am glad I said NO. Oddly, if he would have told me that I have a bit of a fragile ego and a very thick wall built around me, it wouldn't bother me so much. But "easily offended" has, to me, too many negative connotations attached to it.. the person that goes about their lives looking for reasons to be offended, the one with a chip on their shoulder, etc. In addition, it is an entirely different thing to say "you sometimes get easily offended" or "at times you can be sensitive" than to say "you ARE easily offended. One is about behavior, the other is about who we ARE. And yes, his delivery, was without a doubt, aggressive. And I started out in a very vulnerable place, which makes me so angry just thinking about this... I had forgotten a large part of that session.

You are right, how a challenge is presented- the timing, the words chosen, the tone of voice, is important. SOmething obviously went wrong here.

I avoid conflict and drama, yes, but I am as defensive as he is about my work. I guess that's one of the things we fought about, and it angered me that he couldn't see that he was at least partially projecting.

If I tell him any of this, I have a legitimate fear that he will get even more defensive, as I sent him a very well-thought out message a few days ago, mentioning that I cannot seem to find the right things to say, that the therapy is having me feel much worse, and kept it non-accusatory, told him I felt sad, didn't know what to do, I felt that both he and I were at the end of our rope, I would go on meds and we could figure out what to do from there, etc. And I got a slightly angry and defensive reply.

So I can't talk. I'm going to consult with another T tomorrow, and to stay in integrity I mentioned it to my current T. I told him that he is my primary therapist, but that I want to talk to someone who specializes in shame/fear/anger/guilt... all the primal stuff. He was supportive of that, and I told him I would share what I learned.


We still talk about non-primal stuff, and he has always been there for me. I'll see how it goes with this consult.

quote:

If you intellectualize alot, that emotional defense can be eroding away; so you are stuck with just your right brain.

This explains so much. Thanks, maybe I'm not losing my mind.

quote:

It doesn't sound strange to me because I went through this too. I used to be very articulate and able to handle stress very well. That's because I could shut off the emotional side of my brain when necessary. Since this defense eroded, I have not been the same. I dissociated alot when i gave up intellectualization. But i'm getting more integrated. Maybe that is what you are experiencing too-it could be a form of cognitive dissociation but to a mild degree that it seems like confusion, that you can't think straight. Thought that might help to say as this is not uncommon and it gets better the more you 'practice' and integrate. Giving up emotional defenses is really, reall hard. That can affect your mood too as you'd be dealing with emotions previously disavowed. I think that's a sign of progress in therapy, but maybe it doesn't seem that way in your case.

and if I had a gift for the day, this would be it. I'm so grateful for that insight. I am feeling much better now, almost excited.

BTW I have a midterm coming up.

I think the thought of sharing too much is really scary at first especially when (in my case) you're used to people using the stuff you confide against you, or just shutting you down completely. I knew my T would never use the stuff against me or hurt me in any way shape or form, but I found that the more I held back, the worse I felt. In time though, she was able to earn my trust and reassured me multiple times that me holding out on her was just a self defense mechanism and tht it was normal considering my past history with trusting people. I still hold out on her a little bit, but now I know she's in for the long run and I can trust her.

Thanks BLT, Cat, xoxo, AG, and jenny.

Giving your responses thought.

And now all of a sudden I'm puking out words.

I don't know whether it helps, but I am stuck with having something really difficult going on right now, for several weeks, which I SHOULD tell my T but I just can't imagine telling him. I have been here several billion times over the years of therapy, but this time, I just feel so exposed if I tell,
He asks me what it is that stops me telling him.

Shame, embarrassment, not wanting to be pitied, not wanting him to feel sorry for me, knowing that if I tell him, he will know, and I cannot erase it from his mind, he will always know. It requires such trust of another to disclose something that vulnerable and difficult. and know that it will be okay. I wish I could tell him.

Well I'll be dipped in doggie doo...

Did a consult today. A T online who has written some excellent blogs on shame. I figured he may be able to help.

Of course, both T's know that the other was consulted, and I want to stay in integrity.

And what came up was... I have issues with male authority figures (oh, am so amused, this guy is dead on) How many times did I tell my T that "nobody talks to me this way, not a boss, not a client, not my mother, and NOT YOU!

And... that my T may feel a bit threatened by me. I admit, I tend to interact with him as if we were peers. We are the same age, both work in healthcare, and he has told me that I'm very, very intelligent. (I certainly don't feel that way as of late)and usually he doesn't have a problem with that, we actually very much enjoy our interactions because of it, not despite. He also knows that if he mentions something that I'm curious about, I will research it to death. His way of putting it: When I decide I want to learn something/get better at something, I really throw myself into it.

Oh, my. I can only imagine.. from what I have seen on this forum, there are some VERY intelligent women here. Are we "difficult and challenging women?" Seriously, I'm smiling...

OK. So not demonizing my T. As a matter of fact, this new insight helps tremendously. We have a tendency to interact a certain manner. He DOES seem to have a big ego, and I DO NOT respond well to being told that I must "be humble and listen" or "submit" by a male authority figure. AT ALL! Then there is this self-worth issue that I have. I'm one of those who feels as if I may be worth a damn ONLY AFTER I graduate, AFTER I pass my boards, AFTER the next seminar, and the next, and the next... He does not see it that way. I'm also in a constant state of anxiety about making mistakes. It's getting more and more clear!

What we get is a mess. So I'm willing to tell him my issues, and hope that he can tone it down and we can work through this. The consult T said that as long as we continue this dynamic, it's not going to help me with deeper issues. If we relate as two adults, we get along VERY well, but I don't know if I want anyone to be a "parent" to me- at least not as a critical parent, I had enough of that to last several lifetimes!! The consult T did say that living completely in the "adult conceptual world" has probably been one of my primary defenses.

Now that I have "dumbed down" a bit, and have allowed some of my more primal emotions to come through,(or perhaps it is simply a matter of getting through midterms and remembering to take my fish oil supplements) I'm feeling shame, and want to block, perhaps dissociate this unpleasantness, to turn back time somehow. I can't believe that I said certain things to him, and now even sharing smaller things with him feels like shame.

Almost laughing, the fact that neither one of us sees this...

But we were so far IN it, neither of us can see the forest for the trees! I DO like him though- he has MANY good qualities.

Now I am wondering if I need to integrate the adult and child parts of me, and if he will be there to help. I would like that.

The consult T also said that it does not help to simply tell the patient to STOP engaging in their primary defense mechanisms, which for me is intellectualization, black and white thinking, lack of trust.. and becoming spontaneously stupid. He must help me figure out WHY I default to those defenses. And it would also help for him to not freak out/blame me when I break down crying or want to snap at him when we open these cans of worms.

Thanks so much xoxo, you are right. If we can talk about this, it will be an enriching experience. It feels better to know that I'm not the "broken one"-and he the "perfect one" that we are BOTH human. I WANT and PREFER him to be REAL.

I have also spent the last 30 years or so building the person that I think I am, and along comes this person who informs? me that I'm not the person that I thought I was.. independent, intelligent, strong, capable, talented, adventurous, etc. Even though he says I am those things, it is as if it's an afterthought, and part of an overall mixed message- the primary message being that I am dependent, weak, needy, easily offended, damaged, and now... "stupid" AND.. and this is important to the shame piece... THE ONLY ONE LIKE THIS THAT HE HAS ENCOUNTERED. DAMN, SHAME!!

This is going to be more helpful to me in the long run, because what he is providing me with is an opportunity to work things through with a real live person. For me, a male is the best thing for me, due to my past experiences with my father.

Sorry if I got so far off track that it was a bit of a bait and switch, but excited I got!

I forgot to mention one thing:

According to the consult T: (he agreed with me and may write a blog about it)

There is a world of difference between telling someone that they "tend to be sensitive" (AND that we ALL do that at some point) and that "we ARE easily offended".

The latter is not a constructive thing to say to another person in any context.

Thanks again!