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very informative...thanks AG...but, what about if you are in the position of recognizing fully *with the mind* that you are a person who is doing this "bad thing"...(not taking in positive messages, not allowing self-care... but your "needy" emotions feel so powerful that they will not allow you to overcome the basic setup, and you cycle, down, and down- all the cognizant knowledge of how "unhelpful towards healing" your own behavior is, leads just more ever deeply into despair? Is there a way out of this? Or, is it really...hopeless, since no one will ever *really* care that much..as much as you *really do* need them to? Sorry to be a downer... 
Just really looking for some wisdom and insight...
Just really looking for some wisdom and insight...
""Some adult survivors may have the understandable wish (often unconscious) that someone will finally care enough to rescue them in the ways they were not cared for or rescued as a child. If only it could work that way!""
quote from article.
ag, thanks for posting this. this quote above is what i have finally realized i have been looking for all my life, 'mommy', and why all relationships tend to end in disappointment, or, just unquenched 'want'...i do have a pretty good marriage though..miraculously..really kind hubby. and oh, so soothing!! however did he come by such nurturance. anyway, i think this article hit that yearning on the spot, and, if i could identify emotionally the logic of this statement, i would be one step closer!!
and bb, your comment i do understand. i think where i get tripped up on this stuff, is, of course the extremes, too much self care and then i start feeling guilty about being selfish...or too little, coz i feel like that is such baby steps of silly nonsense, and i am a big girl, and i don't need a flipping bubble bath to feel better, i need to get something accomplished because i am such a....(downhill in negative self talk).
so, i guess bb, i would say to try it. that is what i am learning in all this dbt, is, to try it, and see. don't intellectualize yourself out of trying (like i do so often).
ok?? and don't be a glutten either (not that you would, i have, and overspend or do something to make me feel guilty). so, middle path self goodness for you bb!! xxoo, jill
quote from article.
ag, thanks for posting this. this quote above is what i have finally realized i have been looking for all my life, 'mommy', and why all relationships tend to end in disappointment, or, just unquenched 'want'...i do have a pretty good marriage though..miraculously..really kind hubby. and oh, so soothing!! however did he come by such nurturance. anyway, i think this article hit that yearning on the spot, and, if i could identify emotionally the logic of this statement, i would be one step closer!!
and bb, your comment i do understand. i think where i get tripped up on this stuff, is, of course the extremes, too much self care and then i start feeling guilty about being selfish...or too little, coz i feel like that is such baby steps of silly nonsense, and i am a big girl, and i don't need a flipping bubble bath to feel better, i need to get something accomplished because i am such a....(downhill in negative self talk).
so, i guess bb, i would say to try it. that is what i am learning in all this dbt, is, to try it, and see. don't intellectualize yourself out of trying (like i do so often).
ok?? and don't be a glutten either (not that you would, i have, and overspend or do something to make me feel guilty). so, middle path self goodness for you bb!! xxoo, jill
((((((((((BB))))))))))))
Those dark feelings can be incredibly overwhelming, can't they? It feels bleak and hopeless and I do believe that on a very fundamental level we believe it can't be changed because we've never experienced our needs being met before. And even when we start getting them in the here and now, we're left with the very real loss of not getting them when we were small and so desparately in need of love, nuturance and guidance.
So the first thing you do is try to have compassion for yourself for having these feelings. BB, you have an incredibly kind and loving heart (I know you won't agree with me, but trust me on this one, I'm right!) and I have seen you so many times extend compassion to other hurting people. I want you to allow yourself to imagine (only imagine, you don't have to believe yet) that you are as deserving of that compassion as the people you bestow it on are. That if you were able to step outside yourself and see yourself objectively without all the distortions and lies embedded along with the lack of care, you'd see that you deserve to be understood.
The questions you are asking were at the heart of the healing for me and it can be difficult to describe the way out. Mainly because it was painfully circular, often very confusing, and even more often could feel endless.
BB, you went straight to the heart of the matter (as you so often do) with that question. This is what makes it so "hellish" to quote my T, to heal from these kinds of injuries. You really did need someone to care that much, you deserved to have someone care that much and it is a real loss that you didn't have that. And it needs to be mourned. But we cannot grieve until we let ourselves know that we have actually lost something. Those needs are so strong because they are so fundamental to being a human being, that when they're not met, they don't go away. So most of us (I KNOW this was true of me) go on a lifelong quest to get them met. We go from person to person, from relationship to relationship searching for the ONE who will finally love us so much, and long enough on a deep enough level, that we will no longer have those needs. But, the harsh reality, and it is very harsh and unspeakably painful, is that there is no way, no matter how much someone loves us and wants to provide that, that they can. The horrible truth is that we did not get what we needed, and no matter how much we get now, it won't make the pain of what we didn't get disappear. The only way for it to go away is to admit we lost it, and let ourselves experience the grief. I won't lie to you, it was an extraordinarily difficult task to fight through to the point where I could admit that loss, it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. But I had always on some level believed that if I EVER let myself feel that grief, there would never be another side to it. But there is a far side to despair.
But that's where the caring now comes into play. Having a dependable, caring other to hear our pain, hear our loss, to let us express what we want, even if they can't give it to us, creates the safe place where we can mourn and finally let go of looking to get those needs. They help us to see that we can survive our mourning and get enough and grow enough to go on and live a full life, even with all that we missed.
BB what I'm going to say next may be way off the mark, and just tell me if it is, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. We need to allow ourselves to feel the pain, express the unmet needs and all our feelings about them (my ran the gamut from pain to rage), and let ourselves feel the sadness and grief, all things that were denied us BEFORE we can start to take in the good stuff and feel better about ourselves. Actually, my T sitting and listening to me, understanding how I felt, accepting how I felt, helping me to understand the very good reasons I felt that way was a big part of what made me feel like maybe I was worthwhile. It's like your trying to swim with a 50 lb weight tied around your neck and wondering what's wrong with you that you can't break an Olympic swimming record. You have to stop and deal with taking the weight off before you can swim. I spent so much time and so much energy beating myself up for my feelings instead of accepting I felt that way and seeing what those feelings meant.
I hope some of this might help, BB. I know this can be such a painstakedly slow journey but I believe you're walking it.
You're not a downer, I feel honored that you would trust me with your honest feelings. It's ok to have those feelings. It's even better that you come here to express them.
love, AG
Those dark feelings can be incredibly overwhelming, can't they? It feels bleak and hopeless and I do believe that on a very fundamental level we believe it can't be changed because we've never experienced our needs being met before. And even when we start getting them in the here and now, we're left with the very real loss of not getting them when we were small and so desparately in need of love, nuturance and guidance.
So the first thing you do is try to have compassion for yourself for having these feelings. BB, you have an incredibly kind and loving heart (I know you won't agree with me, but trust me on this one, I'm right!) and I have seen you so many times extend compassion to other hurting people. I want you to allow yourself to imagine (only imagine, you don't have to believe yet) that you are as deserving of that compassion as the people you bestow it on are. That if you were able to step outside yourself and see yourself objectively without all the distortions and lies embedded along with the lack of care, you'd see that you deserve to be understood.
The questions you are asking were at the heart of the healing for me and it can be difficult to describe the way out. Mainly because it was painfully circular, often very confusing, and even more often could feel endless.
quote:Or, is it really...hopeless, since no one will ever *really* care that much..as much as you *really do* need them to?
BB, you went straight to the heart of the matter (as you so often do) with that question. This is what makes it so "hellish" to quote my T, to heal from these kinds of injuries. You really did need someone to care that much, you deserved to have someone care that much and it is a real loss that you didn't have that. And it needs to be mourned. But we cannot grieve until we let ourselves know that we have actually lost something. Those needs are so strong because they are so fundamental to being a human being, that when they're not met, they don't go away. So most of us (I KNOW this was true of me) go on a lifelong quest to get them met. We go from person to person, from relationship to relationship searching for the ONE who will finally love us so much, and long enough on a deep enough level, that we will no longer have those needs. But, the harsh reality, and it is very harsh and unspeakably painful, is that there is no way, no matter how much someone loves us and wants to provide that, that they can. The horrible truth is that we did not get what we needed, and no matter how much we get now, it won't make the pain of what we didn't get disappear. The only way for it to go away is to admit we lost it, and let ourselves experience the grief. I won't lie to you, it was an extraordinarily difficult task to fight through to the point where I could admit that loss, it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. But I had always on some level believed that if I EVER let myself feel that grief, there would never be another side to it. But there is a far side to despair.
But that's where the caring now comes into play. Having a dependable, caring other to hear our pain, hear our loss, to let us express what we want, even if they can't give it to us, creates the safe place where we can mourn and finally let go of looking to get those needs. They help us to see that we can survive our mourning and get enough and grow enough to go on and live a full life, even with all that we missed.
BB what I'm going to say next may be way off the mark, and just tell me if it is, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. We need to allow ourselves to feel the pain, express the unmet needs and all our feelings about them (my ran the gamut from pain to rage), and let ourselves feel the sadness and grief, all things that were denied us BEFORE we can start to take in the good stuff and feel better about ourselves. Actually, my T sitting and listening to me, understanding how I felt, accepting how I felt, helping me to understand the very good reasons I felt that way was a big part of what made me feel like maybe I was worthwhile. It's like your trying to swim with a 50 lb weight tied around your neck and wondering what's wrong with you that you can't break an Olympic swimming record. You have to stop and deal with taking the weight off before you can swim. I spent so much time and so much energy beating myself up for my feelings instead of accepting I felt that way and seeing what those feelings meant.
I hope some of this might help, BB. I know this can be such a painstakedly slow journey but I believe you're walking it.
quote:Sorry to be a downer...
You're not a downer, I feel honored that you would trust me with your honest feelings. It's ok to have those feelings. It's even better that you come here to express them.
love, AG
quote:We need to allow ourselves to feel the pain, express the unmet needs and all our feelings about them (my ran the gamut from pain to rage), and let ourselves feel the sadness and grief, all things that were denied us BEFORE we can start to take in the good stuff and feel better about ourselves. Actually, my T sitting and listening to me, understanding how I felt, accepting how I felt, helping me to understand the very good reasons I felt that way was a big part of what made me feel like maybe I was worthwhile.
ag, this is really so good, what you wrote to bb (and to all of us). yes, that is about $5000 worth of therapy right there. i still feel so afraid of the rage and grief. i keep tippy toeing around it. terrified to just jump in. your succinct way of putting it may give me the courage to jump on in.
bb, wise words for us both, jill
Thank you AG, for such a thoughtful and thought-provoking reply. I have to reread and think a lot about this. Lots to digest! I have so many questions. I really appreciate your taking the time out to write this back.
much love
BB
much love
BB
So, AG, I really do not want to pressure to respond at all by writing this (yeah, jill, like you say, about 5000 dollars worth of therapy right there 
) because I know you are busy, and not around much, etc. But I want to write my questions, because I think just writing them will help. Of course, all the better if you find some time to respond! But I just want to be clear that I'm not expecting it, cause I know it's hard.
Questions are:
In feeling this rage and grief, how do you know you are actually feeling it...? I've spend well over a year now crying pretty constantly, obsessing about my T, writing fairly nasty emails to him about how much he hates me and doesn't care about me, crying, etc. But none of that feels about the past. It feels like it's about my therapist. I'm amazed at the level of grief I can feel just about not receiving a reply to an email, or some such thing. I supress a lot of the pain from that, still, I think. My T says, yeah, it's about the past, or it's coming from someplace else. Sometimes I think it's about my husband, too. And some of it is about my T. But I'm not connecting anything I feel in T to the past. I'm just kind of amazed sometimes that these feelings overtake me and feel so real. (If you've read Kashley's thread where we are talking about how unreal our feelings feel, you'll understand my surprise!) I don't get it...is this what you are talking about? Transference pain *is* the rage and grief?
Other thing is, that lately, I am feeling a little more *real.* It sucks. I cry all the time, I can't get anything done, I'm more paralyzed then ever. I ahve barely left my house in 3 weeks. I thought that once I got through some of this and started to experience trust for my T, and my feelings as more real or "allowed," some of my depression would lift...that I would be able to deal with the sadness and at least take an interest in my life. Not so. Instead, I feel worse and less able to cope than ever. And I *still* constantly want and think about my T and feel three years old. I realized recently more fully how very helpless I am, and I am getting tired of it. I am greatly relieved to feel like I am getting tired of it, I think that's probably a good sign. But I don't really know how to pick up the peices of a life that has been completely shattered by decades of untreated depression. And I get pulled back in very easily to this helpless despair and need, by taking a look around at the mess I've created! I want so badly to find a way out. But I truly feel stuck!
Well, I guess I'm just wondering...did you go through this time, of beginining to newly "feel" and feel like you keep poking your head out...feeling a bit, seeing a bit...and it's too awful to feel and face what you see, "out there" so you dive back in again? That's kind of what I feel like. Also, my T keeps saying that I am starved for love and stuff like that, and I can't really see how these comments are helping me, though I'm sure there is something he is trying to get me to see by repeating it so often.
Oh, well, this turned into a ramble, but I will post it anyway. I guess I'm just wondering if I've experienced the pain and grief you are talking about, or if I'm not even there yet. It's so confusing.
Blackbird
) because I know you are busy, and not around much, etc. But I want to write my questions, because I think just writing them will help. Of course, all the better if you find some time to respond! But I just want to be clear that I'm not expecting it, cause I know it's hard.Questions are:
In feeling this rage and grief, how do you know you are actually feeling it...? I've spend well over a year now crying pretty constantly, obsessing about my T, writing fairly nasty emails to him about how much he hates me and doesn't care about me, crying, etc. But none of that feels about the past. It feels like it's about my therapist. I'm amazed at the level of grief I can feel just about not receiving a reply to an email, or some such thing. I supress a lot of the pain from that, still, I think. My T says, yeah, it's about the past, or it's coming from someplace else. Sometimes I think it's about my husband, too. And some of it is about my T. But I'm not connecting anything I feel in T to the past. I'm just kind of amazed sometimes that these feelings overtake me and feel so real. (If you've read Kashley's thread where we are talking about how unreal our feelings feel, you'll understand my surprise!) I don't get it...is this what you are talking about? Transference pain *is* the rage and grief?
Other thing is, that lately, I am feeling a little more *real.* It sucks. I cry all the time, I can't get anything done, I'm more paralyzed then ever. I ahve barely left my house in 3 weeks. I thought that once I got through some of this and started to experience trust for my T, and my feelings as more real or "allowed," some of my depression would lift...that I would be able to deal with the sadness and at least take an interest in my life. Not so. Instead, I feel worse and less able to cope than ever. And I *still* constantly want and think about my T and feel three years old.
I realized recently more fully how very helpless I am, and I am getting tired of it. I am greatly relieved to feel like I am getting tired of it, I think that's probably a good sign. But I don't really know how to pick up the peices of a life that has been completely shattered by decades of untreated depression. And I get pulled back in very easily to this helpless despair and need, by taking a look around at the mess I've created! I want so badly to find a way out. But I truly feel stuck!Well, I guess I'm just wondering...did you go through this time, of beginining to newly "feel" and feel like you keep poking your head out...feeling a bit, seeing a bit...and it's too awful to feel and face what you see, "out there" so you dive back in again? That's kind of what I feel like. Also, my T keeps saying that I am starved for love and stuff like that, and I can't really see how these comments are helping me, though I'm sure there is something he is trying to get me to see by repeating it so often.
Oh, well, this turned into a ramble, but I will post it anyway. I guess I'm just wondering if I've experienced the pain and grief you are talking about, or if I'm not even there yet. It's so confusing.
Blackbird
(((BB))))
I was heading off to bed but actually popped in here to post a reply to your earlier post to tell you to ask the questions, I was more than willing to answer when I could find the time. I honestly do NOT mind you asking at all if you won't mind that I can sometimes be slow to respond and will work really hard to not believe that it's about you or you doing anything wrong, ok?
I'm going to keep this short 'cause I'm bagged right now but yeah, BB, it was a long painful haul. I really do think, on many occasions, that it would have been better if you had all met me earlier. I've been doing therapy over a period of 22 years! You all only got to see the last three with an admittedly brilliant T. But go back and read some of my earlier posts, you'll hear a lot of confusion and anger and depression and wanting to quit and being sick and tired of going through this.
I have a lot more to say on the topic (ok, stop laughing!!) and I'll be back sometime this weekend. I'm sorry for the confusion, but hang in there. You're going to heal. God does not abandon us to a place of darkness and there is no where we walk that Christ has not gone before us. You cannot be snatched from his hand. I'll talk to you again soon, but in the meantime love and hugs
AG
I was heading off to bed but actually popped in here to post a reply to your earlier post to tell you to ask the questions, I was more than willing to answer when I could find the time. I honestly do NOT mind you asking at all if you won't mind that I can sometimes be slow to respond and will work really hard to not believe that it's about you or you doing anything wrong, ok?
I'm going to keep this short 'cause I'm bagged right now but yeah, BB, it was a long painful haul. I really do think, on many occasions, that it would have been better if you had all met me earlier. I've been doing therapy over a period of 22 years! You all only got to see the last three with an admittedly brilliant T. But go back and read some of my earlier posts, you'll hear a lot of confusion and anger and depression and wanting to quit and being sick and tired of going through this.
I have a lot more to say on the topic (ok, stop laughing!!
) and I'll be back sometime this weekend. I'm sorry for the confusion, but hang in there. You're going to heal. God does not abandon us to a place of darkness and there is no where we walk that Christ has not gone before us. You cannot be snatched from his hand. I'll talk to you again soon, but in the meantime love and hugsAG
quote:BB, you went straight to the heart of the matter (as you so often do) with that question. This is what makes it so "hellish" to quote my T, to heal from these kinds of injuries. You really did need someone to care that much, you deserved to have someone care that much and it is a real loss that you didn't have that. And it needs to be mourned. But we cannot grieve until we let ourselves know that we have actually lost something.
BB- Ag is right.
For me too, this is the heart of the matter. My T explains to me that at times of crisis, he is the person (substitute) I need to work things out with. He can be the caregiver that I craved attention from, he can be the abuser that I am reacting to ( my abuser did not physically show anger toward me- only twisted love) he can be anyone in my life that has caused or added to the trauma, and like many of us, there were several people because there were several traumas. T tries to be transparent- as he calls it, and helps me to work out my injuries, my pain with him- so it feels like him for a while. When I am triggered, it is hard (impossible ) to see that it really is not my T causing the pain. He just tells me over and over" come in- let's deal with this together. He has to tell me 100 times that we are in it together.
((((((BB))))) to you. I don't know if this helps, but it is what I thought of when reading your stuff.
AG- again thanks for the wonderful information. I never really thought about self care. I thought all the care had to come from others. I like the idea of making me responsible for me- in terms of care. This reflects a huge hole in my knowledge, but now something new to explore.
Mayo
Mayo, thanks...I am really really struggling with this concept, your words are helping me. sometimes it's like, all I can do is cry- and *that* feels like a huge accomplishment. Ick, I don't like this place, I want out faster than I 'm getting there. I want to have hope that I will get there. But, I guess I have just reached to point of trusting my T more fully, so I have to accept that it's gonna be a bit longer, if at all, before I climb out. Something like that.
Thanks for the hugs, those help most of all.
Hugs back,
BB
Thanks for the hugs, those help most of all.
Hugs back,
BB
BB- The downside of all that I've said, might be transference. I am thinking, that when I allowed this process is when the transference was building. I suppose it is possible to trust your T that much without transference, but I just don't have that experience.
More hugs for you BB. You are such a cool and genuine inspiration to us all.
Must Run- Parent conferences after marriage counseling. (Yuk)
More hugs for you BB. You are such a cool and genuine inspiration to us all.
Must Run- Parent conferences after marriage counseling. (Yuk)
Hi BB,
I finally came back, thanks for your patience!
Beebs, I don't blame you for being confused about this, it's highly confusing. I think one thing I learned from being in therapy for so long is that it is comprised of long stretches of total confusion, followed by a ephiphany when you finally break through, and then on to more confusion. You know. on second thought, I don't know if that is so much a definition for therapy as it for life. I found the trick is just keep fighting through the confusion, keep thinking, keep asking questions, keep talking to your T because eventually if you chip away long enough, some kind of understanding emerges. One mistake that I made alot was feeling like I had to walk into my Ts office with everything all figured out. I went in for one session, and I was struggling so hard to talk, I kept starting and stopping and my T finally interrupted me and told me I didn't have to figure it out on my own. You know, when you've spent your whole life having to cope on your own, the possibility that someone else could help you just doesn't occur to you. After that, I started doing something new, which was to walk into my Ts office and go bleah all over it. I would just talk about my feelings and thoughts no matter how irrational they felt (another of my Ts favorite gems: Feelings are often irrational, that doesn't mean you can't talk about them.) and he would listen to me and then start to ask questions. I'm not sure quite how he did it, but he would find a thread and start to follow it and by the end of the session, I would often have found some kind of clarity. There were times when that was a very intense, uncomfortable process, and he would have stop and reassure me that I was doing fine and even at times would say things like "stick with me, I know I'm asking a lot of questions." The most helpful thing I ever learned to do that was frankly terrified was to stop thinking about what I was going to say, I tried as much as possible to NOT filter what I was saying. I must say that my ability to actually do that increased as I came to trust my T. He told me time and time again that any and all of my feelings were welcome in his office. That they wouldn't be acted on, but any and all of them could be discussed. And then he proved it by being willing to speak of anything I brought up without discomfort or fear. (Seriously, we spent a whole session talking about my erotic feelings for him and how they tied back to my father but how some of them were really about here and now and you would have thought the guy was talking about the lunch takeout menu. At one point, I said I understood how it could be uncomfortable being on the other end of this conversation and he said, yes, but he really wasn't. And he wasn't! But he also told me he wouldn't have handled it quite so well at the beginning of his career. )
Which actually brings me finally to separating out our feelings about the past and the present. OK first, I don't like separating feelings into "transference" and "real" feelings and neither did my T. There all real feelings that you're having in reaction to what is happening between you and your T. The original definition of transference applied to Freud's theory that the therapist be a blank slate so that the only thing that could happen was for the patient to "project" their feelings about the past onto the therapist. He was on to the seed of something but didn't quite go all the way. And frankly, he did a lousy job of being a blank screen. Then attachment theory came along. The idea is that from the time you're born and possibly before, you start to accrue experiences that form your view of the world and relationships. If there is an attuned caregiver, consistently meeting your needs, you see the world as a benevolent place in which you matter and think its a very expected thing to have your needs met. It's easy to ask for what you need, because doing that always brought good results. (Obviously that is a trifle idealized but you get what I mean.) On the other hand, if you are neglected, without an attuned caregiver, and your needs are not met, or you are punished for having them, or if you are used from someone else's needs at the expense of meeting yours (pretty much the definition of abuse) then you come to form an unconscious belief that the universe is a hostile place, where how you feel and what you need doesn't matter, and that making your needs known will at best be disappointing and at the worst, get you hurt. That's kind of either end of a bell curve of experience. These unconscious beliefs and experiences form our relationship schema, our working model of what to expect. It is the filter through which we view all of our experience and relationships.
So the transference is actually us bringing our schema to bear in the relationship with our T. Which is what we do in all our relationships. But the theraputic relationship is closest to a parental one and because of this the perceived power dynamic and authority of the T can often trigger the memories and beliefs associated with our parents, or other significant people in our life. You know the saying "hey, he married his mother." That's because a woman who resembled his mother "lit" him up because she fit his belief of what a loving relationship looks like (no matter how warped mind you.) So every interaction if freighted with meaning and tends to bring the problematic relationship stuff to the foreground. But in a therapist we have someone who is willing to discuss the relationship with us in a way not possible in other relationships because it's all about our needs and they don't need to get anything out of it. So as we react, we are free to examine what we're doing and feeling to find the unconscious beliefs that drive that behavior. To quote my T again "we can only know ourselves IN relationship." The best way I can describe this, is that our feelings about our T are real, but our expectations and fears can be fed by our filter, and our reactions can resonate with unprocessed feelings and experiences in our past and that resonance lends an intensity to our feelings. And because of our filter, we can fear behaviors and consequences that are not grounded in anything our T has done, but in our expectations for this type of relationship.
I really want to walk you through an example of this and actually realized that the session where we dealt with my erotic feelings is a really good example, but we're going to see the Midnight Opening of Harry Potter so I'm going to post this and come back later with an actual example. Hopefully, quicker this time.
AG
PS Mayo and Jill, thanks! I didn't mean to ignore you, just ran out of time. I have to learn to either talk less or type faster!
I finally came back, thanks for your patience!
quote:In feeling this rage and grief, how do you know you are actually feeling it...? I've spend well over a year now crying pretty constantly, obsessing about my T, writing fairly nasty emails to him about how much he hates me and doesn't care about me, crying, etc. But none of that feels about the past. It feels like it's about my therapist. I'm amazed at the level of grief I can feel just about not receiving a reply to an email, or some such thing. I supress a lot of the pain from that, still, I think. My T says, yeah, it's about the past, or it's coming from someplace else. Sometimes I think it's about my husband, too. And some of it is about my T. But I'm not connecting anything I feel in T to the past. I'm just kind of amazed sometimes that these feelings overtake me and feel so real. (If you've read Kashley's thread where we are talking about how unreal our feelings feel, you'll understand my surprise!) I don't get it...is this what you are talking about? Transference pain *is* the rage and grief?
Beebs, I don't blame you for being confused about this, it's highly confusing. I think one thing I learned from being in therapy for so long is that it is comprised of long stretches of total confusion, followed by a ephiphany when you finally break through, and then on to more confusion. You know. on second thought, I don't know if that is so much a definition for therapy as it for life.
I found the trick is just keep fighting through the confusion, keep thinking, keep asking questions, keep talking to your T because eventually if you chip away long enough, some kind of understanding emerges. One mistake that I made alot was feeling like I had to walk into my Ts office with everything all figured out. I went in for one session, and I was struggling so hard to talk, I kept starting and stopping and my T finally interrupted me and told me I didn't have to figure it out on my own. You know, when you've spent your whole life having to cope on your own, the possibility that someone else could help you just doesn't occur to you. After that, I started doing something new, which was to walk into my Ts office and go bleah all over it. I would just talk about my feelings and thoughts no matter how irrational they felt (another of my Ts favorite gems: Feelings are often irrational, that doesn't mean you can't talk about them.) and he would listen to me and then start to ask questions. I'm not sure quite how he did it, but he would find a thread and start to follow it and by the end of the session, I would often have found some kind of clarity. There were times when that was a very intense, uncomfortable process, and he would have stop and reassure me that I was doing fine and even at times would say things like "stick with me, I know I'm asking a lot of questions." The most helpful thing I ever learned to do that was frankly terrified was to stop thinking about what I was going to say, I tried as much as possible to NOT filter what I was saying. I must say that my ability to actually do that increased as I came to trust my T. He told me time and time again that any and all of my feelings were welcome in his office. That they wouldn't be acted on, but any and all of them could be discussed. And then he proved it by being willing to speak of anything I brought up without discomfort or fear. (Seriously, we spent a whole session talking about my erotic feelings for him and how they tied back to my father but how some of them were really about here and now and you would have thought the guy was talking about the lunch takeout menu. At one point, I said I understood how it could be uncomfortable being on the other end of this conversation and he said, yes, but he really wasn't. And he wasn't! But he also told me he wouldn't have handled it quite so well at the beginning of his career. )Which actually brings me finally to separating out our feelings about the past and the present. OK first, I don't like separating feelings into "transference" and "real" feelings and neither did my T. There all real feelings that you're having in reaction to what is happening between you and your T. The original definition of transference applied to Freud's theory that the therapist be a blank slate so that the only thing that could happen was for the patient to "project" their feelings about the past onto the therapist. He was on to the seed of something but didn't quite go all the way. And frankly, he did a lousy job of being a blank screen. Then attachment theory came along. The idea is that from the time you're born and possibly before, you start to accrue experiences that form your view of the world and relationships. If there is an attuned caregiver, consistently meeting your needs, you see the world as a benevolent place in which you matter and think its a very expected thing to have your needs met. It's easy to ask for what you need, because doing that always brought good results. (Obviously that is a trifle idealized but you get what I mean.) On the other hand, if you are neglected, without an attuned caregiver, and your needs are not met, or you are punished for having them, or if you are used from someone else's needs at the expense of meeting yours (pretty much the definition of abuse) then you come to form an unconscious belief that the universe is a hostile place, where how you feel and what you need doesn't matter, and that making your needs known will at best be disappointing and at the worst, get you hurt. That's kind of either end of a bell curve of experience. These unconscious beliefs and experiences form our relationship schema, our working model of what to expect. It is the filter through which we view all of our experience and relationships.
So the transference is actually us bringing our schema to bear in the relationship with our T. Which is what we do in all our relationships. But the theraputic relationship is closest to a parental one and because of this the perceived power dynamic and authority of the T can often trigger the memories and beliefs associated with our parents, or other significant people in our life. You know the saying "hey, he married his mother." That's because a woman who resembled his mother "lit" him up because she fit his belief of what a loving relationship looks like (no matter how warped mind you.) So every interaction if freighted with meaning and tends to bring the problematic relationship stuff to the foreground. But in a therapist we have someone who is willing to discuss the relationship with us in a way not possible in other relationships because it's all about our needs and they don't need to get anything out of it. So as we react, we are free to examine what we're doing and feeling to find the unconscious beliefs that drive that behavior. To quote my T again "we can only know ourselves IN relationship." The best way I can describe this, is that our feelings about our T are real, but our expectations and fears can be fed by our filter, and our reactions can resonate with unprocessed feelings and experiences in our past and that resonance lends an intensity to our feelings. And because of our filter, we can fear behaviors and consequences that are not grounded in anything our T has done, but in our expectations for this type of relationship.
I really want to walk you through an example of this and actually realized that the session where we dealt with my erotic feelings is a really good example, but we're going to see the Midnight Opening of Harry Potter so I'm going to post this and come back later with an actual example. Hopefully, quicker this time.
AG
PS Mayo and Jill, thanks! I didn't mean to ignore you, just ran out of time. I have to learn to either talk less or type faster!
Don't apologise AG- I learn lots from your posts. Your info helps me too.
My T and I are just getting through a transference/ counter transference issue- so your words help. My T was my father this time- had to go through a duck and disappear routine- felt like it was T cuz we had a disagreement(there is one topic that we get into- that triggers him, and I accidently hit it)- devastating and hard to see through it when it is happening, but such relief when it is over. It is good to know that the relationship can withstand that struggle. It gave him work to do to.
Anyway- thanks
...and Beebs, it is hard, hard, hard. I can nto put it into words like AG can, but if you can work through it (and you will) the growth is so worth it. Many(((((BB))))).
My T and I are just getting through a transference/ counter transference issue- so your words help. My T was my father this time- had to go through a duck and disappear routine- felt like it was T cuz we had a disagreement(there is one topic that we get into- that triggers him, and I accidently hit it)- devastating and hard to see through it when it is happening, but such relief when it is over. It is good to know that the relationship can withstand that struggle. It gave him work to do to.
Anyway- thanks
...and Beebs, it is hard, hard, hard. I can nto put it into words like AG can, but if you can work through it (and you will) the growth is so worth it. Many(((((BB))))).
AG thanks for posting this article. When I read the title I thought - yeah that’s exactly what it means to me! Got into a row with a T I saw briefly about precisely this thing - she started going on about what do I do for self care, that she needs to know I can look after myself outside of sessions, that she wasn’t prepared to be the one to do ‘all the caring’. She kept pushing me with questions and suggestions about what exactly do I do to look after myself, what do I do in terms of self care and self soothing (yikes she sounded like a text book the phrases came out of her mouth so pat, as she assumed that I would know what the words meant!)
I really really really resented it - in part because I heard her saying that a prerequisite of her helping me was that I must already be helping myself first - and in part because she was pre-empting and implying that my underground desire for someone else to take responsibility for caring about me, in order to show me how to care about myself, was unacceptable. (This second bit chimes in with what you so eloquently explained about transference and Ts standing in for parental figures.)
I also REALLY resented the implication that I had to come up with all sorts of positive things I was supposed to be doing to get better which I found incredibly patronizing - how the hell did she think I’d survived this many years if I didn’t have a built in self care mechanism. Oh it just made me so angry as if she were some sort of cold parent saying - I won’t help you tie your shoelaces unless you can learn to do it by yourself first. And then if I DO learn to tie my shoelaces by myself, the cold parent says, well you don’t need my help because you can do it for yourself!
For sure I overreacted - but in terms of checking her out as a potential T my expectation would have been for her to go into why I was feeling so resentful but instead she kept pushing the notion that I *had* to come up with instances of how I was going to self care. She showed no interest in the reasons why I was reacting with resentment and that just made me MORE resentful - having my feelings invalidated, not being heard or understood and having all these demands shoved down my throat instead.
Thinking about it I realize that the way I experience the whole notion of self care is both as something bad because I’m ‘thinking of myself’, and as a ‘should’ - I’m supposed to, ought to, am required to, must - like love care about myself. So when I do do things for myself that help me or make me feel less shit or just plain get me through the day - if I become aware that I’m doing it for myself, it feels both like I’m doing something I’m supposed to, something demanded by other people, and at the same time I feel guilty for feeling good for thinking of myself and so the self care turns into a stick that makes it all negative. So when a T starts telling me I’m supposed to be doing things to make myself feel better, it feels as if I’m being told - the point of life is for you to stop even hoping that someone else will care about you, the point of life is for you to take full responsibility for getting and giving YOURSELF anything good. Resent resent resent with much gnashing of teeth!
It’s like it’s become a ‘should’ too that I’m supposed to like and love myself - that if I don’t, if I feel self loathing and self hate then that’s unacceptable and bad and wrong and that I’m supposed to (somehow magically) feel good about being me. All to do with the guilt shame pain and plain ‘badness’ of daring to think that anyone else could feel good about me, to be there caringly for me.
Ha ha just realized that I also have the idea that if I reveal that I can and do self-care, then that somehow indicates to the world that I’m not really so badly off not desperately in need and will be told to go away and stop bothering people with unimportant childish demands. If I can look after myself then there’s no need for anyone else to do it is there?
Oh this has turned into a bit of a vent, sorry. Wonder if anyone else feels this kind of defensive resentment about being *expected* to self care.
LL
Oh and re transference - having been paranoid for most of my life I’m SO familiar with projection (transference in a sense) and am aware even as I’m doing it that that’s what’s happening (mostly). Having a T who can deal with and understand transference sympathetically and seriously (actually as a vital part of therapy imo) is SO necessary precisely for the reasons you explain AG - even though I can tell that I’m projecting, nevertheless the feelings and perceptions are *real* and true to me, and having to untangle it all in the vacuum of other people’s reality is a nightmare. Not to mention utterly confusing and groundshiftingly scary - not knowing when or if I can rely on my own perceptions of things, and mostly having to discount what I think and feel as being not accurate or real.
Having a T take seriously and accept all the projections and not respond from his/her reality but help unravel and resolve the origins of the outdated templates strikes me as the single most important thing therapy can achieve - no-one else in real world is able to do that really, are they?
Not sure if this has any meaning to others who posted here, hope so though.
I really really really resented it - in part because I heard her saying that a prerequisite of her helping me was that I must already be helping myself first - and in part because she was pre-empting and implying that my underground desire for someone else to take responsibility for caring about me, in order to show me how to care about myself, was unacceptable. (This second bit chimes in with what you so eloquently explained about transference and Ts standing in for parental figures.)
I also REALLY resented the implication that I had to come up with all sorts of positive things I was supposed to be doing to get better which I found incredibly patronizing - how the hell did she think I’d survived this many years if I didn’t have a built in self care mechanism. Oh it just made me so angry as if she were some sort of cold parent saying - I won’t help you tie your shoelaces unless you can learn to do it by yourself first. And then if I DO learn to tie my shoelaces by myself, the cold parent says, well you don’t need my help because you can do it for yourself!
For sure I overreacted - but in terms of checking her out as a potential T my expectation would have been for her to go into why I was feeling so resentful but instead she kept pushing the notion that I *had* to come up with instances of how I was going to self care. She showed no interest in the reasons why I was reacting with resentment and that just made me MORE resentful - having my feelings invalidated, not being heard or understood and having all these demands shoved down my throat instead.
Thinking about it I realize that the way I experience the whole notion of self care is both as something bad because I’m ‘thinking of myself’, and as a ‘should’ - I’m supposed to, ought to, am required to, must - like love care about myself. So when I do do things for myself that help me or make me feel less shit or just plain get me through the day - if I become aware that I’m doing it for myself, it feels both like I’m doing something I’m supposed to, something demanded by other people, and at the same time I feel guilty for feeling good for thinking of myself and so the self care turns into a stick that makes it all negative. So when a T starts telling me I’m supposed to be doing things to make myself feel better, it feels as if I’m being told - the point of life is for you to stop even hoping that someone else will care about you, the point of life is for you to take full responsibility for getting and giving YOURSELF anything good. Resent resent resent with much gnashing of teeth!
It’s like it’s become a ‘should’ too that I’m supposed to like and love myself - that if I don’t, if I feel self loathing and self hate then that’s unacceptable and bad and wrong and that I’m supposed to (somehow magically) feel good about being me. All to do with the guilt shame pain and plain ‘badness’ of daring to think that anyone else could feel good about me, to be there caringly for me.
Ha ha just realized that I also have the idea that if I reveal that I can and do self-care, then that somehow indicates to the world that I’m not really so badly off not desperately in need and will be told to go away and stop bothering people with unimportant childish demands. If I can look after myself then there’s no need for anyone else to do it is there?
Oh this has turned into a bit of a vent, sorry. Wonder if anyone else feels this kind of defensive resentment about being *expected* to self care.
LL
Oh and re transference - having been paranoid for most of my life I’m SO familiar with projection (transference in a sense) and am aware even as I’m doing it that that’s what’s happening (mostly). Having a T who can deal with and understand transference sympathetically and seriously (actually as a vital part of therapy imo) is SO necessary precisely for the reasons you explain AG - even though I can tell that I’m projecting, nevertheless the feelings and perceptions are *real* and true to me, and having to untangle it all in the vacuum of other people’s reality is a nightmare. Not to mention utterly confusing and groundshiftingly scary - not knowing when or if I can rely on my own perceptions of things, and mostly having to discount what I think and feel as being not accurate or real.
Having a T take seriously and accept all the projections and not respond from his/her reality but help unravel and resolve the origins of the outdated templates strikes me as the single most important thing therapy can achieve - no-one else in real world is able to do that really, are they?
Not sure if this has any meaning to others who posted here, hope so though.
AG, your reply is hugely helpful to me as well...I wnated to let you know that I am looking forward to the examples, but also not to be sorry about how long it takes to get here. We understand how busy you are, and appreciate everything you offer so much. Really mean that.
LL, for me, I react in similar way to the idea of self-care, only it just leaves me feeling really hopeless and left-behind. I'm happy to learn steps to caring for myself, for example recently my T gave me an assignment, and it felt good becuase he said he was going "hold me to it." To me that feels very caring and is exactly what I need, until I can learn how to hold myself to things. But when self-care suggestions or whatnot are given to me by caring figures in my life as suggestions adn then forgotten about, that's where I get really stopped up, becaus eI just know I will forget, let it go, stop caring after awhile or whatever. So, that caring person who will "hold me to it" just feels so essential to me. Someone who will check in with me on stuff? Say: "how are you doing with this suggestion I made? Are you still doing it? I strongly encourage you to keep at it, and I'm going to keep checking on you to see that you do." Something like that. idk. Maybe that is truly a helpless place to be...who will do such a thing for another adult person? I mean it really feels like I need to be able to "submit" myself to my T's (caring) suggestions, and then I would be gradually ok. But I could be wrong...it might really be that I need to simply pick myself up and make myself do, for my own reward, whatever it is. But I don't care about pleasing myself...I really don't. I just want someone to be "proud of me."
AG, is the answer here to talk about all these needs with my T, without neccessarily getting them met? And in doing that talking, the needs will diminish and I will be able to care about my life, for myself, regardless of whether anyone else does or not?
Yes, confusing stuff...
I'm sorry you are dealing with similar, LL...
BB
LL, for me, I react in similar way to the idea of self-care, only it just leaves me feeling really hopeless and left-behind. I'm happy to learn steps to caring for myself, for example recently my T gave me an assignment, and it felt good becuase he said he was going "hold me to it." To me that feels very caring and is exactly what I need, until I can learn how to hold myself to things. But when self-care suggestions or whatnot are given to me by caring figures in my life as suggestions adn then forgotten about, that's where I get really stopped up, becaus eI just know I will forget, let it go, stop caring after awhile or whatever. So, that caring person who will "hold me to it" just feels so essential to me. Someone who will check in with me on stuff? Say: "how are you doing with this suggestion I made? Are you still doing it? I strongly encourage you to keep at it, and I'm going to keep checking on you to see that you do." Something like that. idk. Maybe that is truly a helpless place to be...who will do such a thing for another adult person? I mean it really feels like I need to be able to "submit" myself to my T's (caring) suggestions, and then I would be gradually ok. But I could be wrong...it might really be that I need to simply pick myself up and make myself do, for my own reward, whatever it is. But I don't care about pleasing myself...I really don't. I just want someone to be "proud of me."
AG, is the answer here to talk about all these needs with my T, without neccessarily getting them met? And in doing that talking, the needs will diminish and I will be able to care about my life, for myself, regardless of whether anyone else does or not?
Yes, confusing stuff...
I'm sorry you are dealing with similar, LL...
BB
By AGquote:One mistake that I made alot was feeling like I had to walk into my Ts office with everything all figured out.
OOOOOOOOOOOOH... this is exactly what I do- thought I had to. This is an eye opener
for me.
LL- if I am understanding you correctly (not quite sure that I am, though) I think I have a tendancy to go to the other extreme. I, (like Ag did) go in with my problems somewhat solved in my head because I don't want to be a problen for him- I want to be one of his easiest cases, so he will keep me. If I work it all out myself- it shows him how smart I am (not really- I am seeing)and he will think I am so special because I am so smart. Wow this is a bit of a revelation for me. This is why he says I am so resilliant and strong.
Ok- I have to stop- I a triggering myself with this. I never want to be any trouble to anyone- but sometimes I am.
Ok- I have to stop- I a triggering myself with this. I never want to be any trouble to anyone- but sometimes I am.
quote:I just want someone to be "proud of me."
Me too! And that is my T.
Mayo that's interesting what you say. I'm also like that, going into T with most of my issues figured out - but I then get impatient when T tries to reinvent the wheel. But I trot out all my wonderful intellectual explanations in an attempt to convince Ts just how screwed up I am and to get them to take me seriously. (Looking for care and understanding...)
I interpret self care as meaning I'm supposed to go off and do things to make myself feel better instead of looking for it from a T - yet that's why I'm in therapy in the first place, to get some of things I never got IN ORDER THEN to be able to give them to myself.
Your last post resonates with me - I would see it the same - I'd want a T to be proud of me (because I cant' get anyone in real world to do so), so that I could learn to be proud of myself. It would really upset me if a T maintained that I had to learn to be proud of myself all by myself. All of my human self image comes from outside, I don't think it's possible to invent a good self image without genuine positve external input from other people. More's the pity
Hope you haven't been triggered too much - it sounds like a few pennies have been dropping for you here
LL
I interpret self care as meaning I'm supposed to go off and do things to make myself feel better instead of looking for it from a T - yet that's why I'm in therapy in the first place, to get some of things I never got IN ORDER THEN to be able to give them to myself.
Your last post resonates with me - I would see it the same - I'd want a T to be proud of me (because I cant' get anyone in real world to do so), so that I could learn to be proud of myself. It would really upset me if a T maintained that I had to learn to be proud of myself all by myself. All of my human self image comes from outside, I don't think it's possible to invent a good self image without genuine positve external input from other people. More's the pity
Hope you haven't been triggered too much - it sounds like a few pennies have been dropping for you here
LL
oh LL,
I don't care what the FU*# my T thinks of me now. I have to somehow make him mean nothing to me.
I am so angry and hurt that i don't know if I can ever talk to him again.
What does the dropping of pennies mean? Don't know that one here across the ocean?
Mayo
I don't care what the FU*# my T thinks of me now. I have to somehow make him mean nothing to me.
I am so angry and hurt that i don't know if I can ever talk to him again.
What does the dropping of pennies mean? Don't know that one here across the ocean?
Mayo
Mayo I’m so sorry you’re going through this crap because of your T’s text. Just posting to explain that expression - the penny has dropped (referring to a coin operated mechanism that is set in motion once the coin had ‘dropped’ into place) - the equivalent expression being something like, a light bulb going on - an ‘aha’ moment (even if it’s negative).
((( Mayo ))) I’m so sorry it sounds like all sorts of stuff is overwhelming you at the moment - hope you can stay strong until you get to sort some of it with your T.
LL
((( Mayo ))) I’m so sorry it sounds like all sorts of stuff is overwhelming you at the moment - hope you can stay strong until you get to sort some of it with your T.
LL