Hi AG!

Glad to see you are back. I missed reading your novels.

I have been in the midst of grieving for the past also these last few months. I feel a terrible sadness that has no specific focus really but it feels sharp and fresh like the bad thing has just happened. It reminds me of that feeling that happens right after losing someone important to me and that horrible feeling that hits upon waking up in the morning feeling fine just to have all the heartache hit me a second later.

It is kind of reversed now though. I feel really sad all the time but I have to remember why. I have to remember that it is not something happening to me right now that I can deal with or try to change. Its already happened and can't be changed, just mourned and accepted.

btw, I like your poem. :>

Hi River!
You are too kind about my novels! Don't be nice, it will only encourage me!

Thanks River for what you said about grieving, you really described it well, especially that feeling in the morning. I lost one of my best friends almost three years ago and my very beloved mother-in-law in January and the worst was when you would dream about them being still alive then have to wake up in the morning and realize all over again that they're gone. One thing that makes this easier is that there have been times during therapy where I have been dealing with a lot of grief and got intellectually that it must be related to my history but didn't really know how. I understand this grief and where its coming from. And though I know it probably looks pretty wierd for people who don't get it, I finally understand its legitimate grief and its ok to do this. Thanks for responding, its really good to know that someone else understands what its like. Glad you liked the poem! (Of course, that only encourages me too!)

AG

Sometimes we grieve "getting better" or should I say giving up the neg beleifs. While change is good, it is not easy. No matter how we try to intellectualize how much better off we are, we still feel the pain of losing something we've known all our lives. We are no longer victims. That should make us happy right? But giving up whatever role or coping mechanism we've been accustomed to is strange and very frightening. That's why it is easier to seek what is familar no matter how dysfunctional it is.

I like being here when I can't be with my T.

BTW: Nice poem AG. I write poetry and books too.

P.S.Does anyone grieve or esp miss their T the morning after session? (or whole day)That comment should probably be back in the transference post.

Sometimes I don't want to go to therapy because I don't like how sad I feel right after I leave. I guess it takes about 24 hours for me to bounce back a little.

I would love to call my T once in a while just to say "hi" because even though I may not be having a crisis I want so badly to just "connect" with her. I'd be too embarrassed to really do this though. I wouldn't know what to say after that initial "just wanted to say hi." I often wish we could email then at least I would feel like I wasn't making her go out of her way to call me for no particular reason. This is something you can do with a best friend and not feel silly at all. Man, how I wish I had a best friend. Too bad they don't grow on trees.

Hi River,
Ask your T what her phone call allowance is. Mine is ok with 1 call per day. Of course I do not use that. In fact, I hardly ever call but I WANT TO SOOO BAD! I don't feel right bothering her between sessions, but she has explained several times that she sets aside that amount of time for those things. It does not have to be a crisis to call, but often she is providing reassurance for me.
Might be woth talking about in therapy. That alone might help ease the pain btwn sessions if explored.

A friend tree would be nice sometimes huh?

We are cyber friends here.

JM

JM -

I wonder what would happen if you did call your T everyday just for reassurance or whatever. I wonder how many calls it would take to satisfy the longing so that you wouldn't have to talk to her everyday. I have found that when the need is great I feel like there will never be enough resources to meet it and that I will burn out anyone who tries but I have been suprised by how little it takes sometimes.

My daughter is very clingy and suffers from separation anxiety even if I just leave the room. But if I shower her with attention for a little while and focus only on her it is not long before she is off doing her own thing feeling secure and confident. She doesn't even care where mommy is anymore.

Ok, ok so I know you are saying, "well what about YOU? Why don't you call your T everyday?" Well, I haven't because I just thought of this. Plus she hasn't said that I could call her everyday but I haven't asked her either. I will try to drum up the courage to ask but I don't know if I could actually do it (call everyday, I mean). Well maybe, if I knew that is was absolutely ok to do it without bugging her. This I know is my hangup cuz I grew up trying to take up as little space as possible so it takes a lot of reassurance to get me to feel ok about asking for anything. I hate asking for things but true to form my T doesn't offer anything beyond what I do ask her about. I suspect she is waiting for me to ask so, as you know, I can get better at doing it.

So what do you think? I'll give this idea more thought if you will JM.

Well my daughter is hanging on me again so I better go play.

Wow, you sound just like me here:
"Well maybe, if I knew that is was absolutely ok to do it without bugging her. This I know is my hangup cuz I grew up trying to take up as little space as possible so it takes a lot of reassurance to get me to feel ok about asking for anything. I hate asking for things..."

I am just like that River! (Probably a lot of us are)I finally worked up the nerve to ask my T for a hug this week after 2 1/2 yrs of therapy and knowing that she would approve of a hug now and then IF I JUST ASKED. I also reaffirmed with her (because I am going through an esp tough time right now)if it is ok that I call her more often. "Of course I probably wont call you every day." I added. She said "it is ok if you call me and I will call you back, just be aware of my limitations that it may not be right away." I think we do have to take the initiative to ask. To express our needs and learn that it is ok to express our needs b/c there are others (unlike our parents) who are willing and able to help us meet our needs. I am finally learning that.

I certainly don't want to set you up for disappointment if your T has a different policy on phone calls than mine. I'm not even advocating that we SHOULD call them every day. I think that one call per day is actually my T's limit and not an invitation. She has had to express that limit to a client before whereas she told me b/c I was so afraid to call her thinking I was bugging her if I called her once a month. So she was trying to let me know I had alot more leeway w/ her.

She frequently reassures me that I am not bugging her or frustrating her. She also promises that if I ever were she would tell me and we would work it out. This is essential dialogue but testing the waters a little bit is good for us so we experience that it really is ok. You need that.

It's interesting to note here that she has told me several times over the years, yet it was not until I actually tested that out that I found it to be true. They can tell us until they're blue in the face (poor exasperated little T's)and it wont make a difference until we find out for ourselves and TRUST that we can.


JM
"I'm crying because my pain is gone and I am not yet used to living without it."-Anais Nin

Hi River and Just Me,
I completely relate to what your talking about because I've been through it with my T. When he realized that we were working with attachment issues he kept explaining that it was really important for me to learn to move "towards" relationship when I felt needy because my conditioned response was to move away and not express my needs. And I kid you not, I actually had this converstation with him early on,
ME: I will feel silly calling you and when you call me back and say hi, I say that's all I needed. That just seems so silly.

HIM: But I know you, and I understand why its important so I know its not silly.

I usually call my T at least once between sessions. I also have an option to email but he's terrible about looking at his email, so I only email when I don't feel urgent (which isn't very often ). The calls average about three minutes and have been known to be one minute long.

My T, I kid you not, tells me its OK to call at the end of EVERY session because I has such a hard time doing so. Being needy is just not a comfortable thing. But each time I reach out, and sometimes it really just is needing to connect and I'll tell him that, it reinforces that good things happen when I move towards relationship. I would really encourage both of you to make contact when you need to and/or talk to your T about it. The boundaries are the T's responsibility and they should be able to tell you what's ok with them. There have been the occasional weeks where I've called three times between appts which feels really over the top to me, but my T was wonderfully understanding. I KNOW how uncomfortable it feels, and how childish it can make you feel but its really important to experience the acceptance in a way it didn't happen befoe.

All that said, Just Me you have my deep respect for asking for a hug. I've emailed my T about wanting to be held but just cannot bring myself to talk about it. Although, to give me a break, its complicated by the fact that I've talked to him about being attracted to him.

I also think that because the feelings are so intense for us, it feels like our Ts must know we feel that way. I think you're right, we need to make it known because they really may not realize it.

And the first 24 hours after the appt are always the worst! Usually if I'm going to call my T its in the first 24 hours. Sometimes leaving is so hard, I sit in my car and cry for awhile before I leave. My T and I have talked about it and its just part of healing. When you're not secure, separations can be really threatening. I will say its getting better as time passes. But you're not alone.

AG

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries! LOL!

I stay as far away from boundaries as I can because "I have to be a good little girl" and I am afraid that if I have to be told not to do something (pushing boundaries)than I am a disappointment, a problem, and therefore unlovable. Sad isn't it? Although I am progressing (greatly)in that department. I am realizing that even if I were to push the boundaries and my T had to talk to me about it (heaven forbid) that WE would be ok. We would work through it and she would love me and care for me no less because of it. I am really believing that as I allow myself to trust her more and more.

Yes, boundaries are their responsibilty. That is such a relief when we learn to let go of assuming responsibility for things that don't belong to us.

Similarly, I recently told my T that it was actually a relief that I could not see the clock the week before and become filled with anxiety as I would see the time expire. Then i'd feel responsible to notice that session is over and reach for my purse. She smiled and said "It is my responsibility to watch the clock and know when the session is over. You don't have to." At my request we now keep the clocks turned away from me. I like that.

Funny thing, she also has to open the door for me when I leave. I don't know why, I just need that gesture for some reason. It is a closure of some sort as opposed to her turning toward her desk to assume another task as I am leaving. Perhaps that used to signal that she was anxious to turn her attention to something else. But then I feel awkward if she takes the time to fill in my next appointment on her PDA as I am standing at the door. "Hello...you're forgetting something."

Sometimes I cry in my car too because it is the longest stretch of time before I see her again.
Hooray I'm not an obssessive nut case!!!

Oh heavens no! You are not an obsessive nutcase! Well, if you are, then I am too and we are in good company.

I have too tried very hard to not even come close to pushing any boundary because I don't know if I could stand even the slightest bit of correction that would feel like rejection from my T. This fear has been a big part of why it is so hard to ask for something I need or to even admit that I need it.

Once I was so sad by the time I got home from a session I called my T before I even got out of the car. She called back like within 5 minutes (I guess she wasn't busy) so even before I walked into the house I was able to tell her how hard it is to leave and know that it will feel like a very long time before I see her again. I have so little support and connection to others in my life that the separation from her can be overwhelming. I felt weird calling her so soon but it certainly helped me get through the week.

Okay,so maybe calling everyday is a little extreme but how about every other day or maybe call to just leave a message without needing T to call back? I think AG mentioned once that a friend of hers leaves messages like that and her T won't call until after the second message. Sometimes I feel better just after making the call and leaving a message and probably don't need my T to call me back every time. I guess that feels like I am not really bugging her. Maybe this is why the idea of email correspondence is appealing to me.

Getting stuff out in these posts has been great for me too. This is the first time I have every really posted anything on the internet. I guess I have always been a little afraid to put myself out there in writing to strangers for the world to read. I am glad that I made the plunge this time!

Hi River!

I know what you mean about the rejection thing. I think that describes my fear too. If I have to be corrected then that means I am bad and that sets me up for rejection.

Sometimes I call my T's voicemail and not leave a message. Just to hear her voice is soothing to me at times. I finally confessed that to her a couple months ago and she laughed and said "I wish I could record something more creative or entertaining for you to listen to." I have also left messages to tell her how I am feeling w/o the need for her to call me back. But there is nothing like calling, leaving a message, having her call back, and know that it is ok.

I don't know if I shared this yet or not so forgive me if I am repeating myself, but a year ago she told me "I can't wait until you get that it is ok for you to reach out to get your needs met. I truly desire that for you." She's just the stable force I need to be able to do that. Friends cannot always provide that sort of consistent stability.

Hey Attachment Girl. I really liked your poem about the grief and anger. I can really relate to your experiences of the process and have appreciated your words and wisdom. I agree when we make the changes necessary, we must grieve all the times that we kept that belief/agreement in place and suffered because of it. I think sometimes that can be a great deterrent for some to "go there", because it is just too overwhelming. For me, I know how much life has to give when you can go there and let go, and so I am up for peeling the layers and waiting for the fruits to ripen.

Hi Em,
Thanks so much, I'm really glad you liked it. I'm one of those who couldn't go there for a long time because of fearing being overwhelmed. Its the security of the relationship with my T and knowing he's there to help regulate my emotions that have finally allowed me to go there. Its difficult but incredibly healing. I'm so grateful to have found a way to get to it; its been a long time coming. I loved what you said about "peeling the layers and waiting for the fruits to ripen." Such an evocative description and so perfect. Part of what I was trying to convey in the poem was the feeling that as I clear out these long buried feelings there is now room to fill with good things, and room to create new things. I'm finally learning who I am because I'm not spending all my energy on holding feelings in.

AG

This post is an oldie but a goodie - and I'm so glad I found it as I don't have to create in my own words what I am currently feeling regarding boundaries / asking for what I need / phone contact / requests denied and feeling corrected and hence unloved.

Cheers!
I'm OK