Liese, if you had to put yourself in his situation, what would you have said?

I'm just picturing myself as a T with a male client in your position, asking me to say why I wouldn't be a good partner for him. The only answer I could give would be that it could never happen. Your T can't be a good partner for you because he can't be your partner.

I can't say I'd find it easy either though if I were in your position Liese. That's why I picked a female T. I knew I wasn't ready for erotic transference. It's not an easy thing to deal with...

((((AG))))(((BLT))))

Thanks for your support and replies. Of course, my feelings for him flourish precisely because I don't know anything about him. My thinking was that if I knew more about him then perhaps I wouldn't feel this way about him. So, my question was along those lines. It was supposed to be more of, tell me why my feelings are SOOO off-base, kind of thing. Or that's the way it was supposed to be. Did it come across that way?

I was trying to do a reality check. I just don't know how to turn this corner with him. I don't know how to tackle these feelings and still work with him. I don't know why it hurts so much. It's not like anything will change between us. I'll still see him twice a week if I want. He'll still be the same great guy.

The problem is that each time I go, it's not like I like him less. I like him each time as much or more than I did the time before.

It's probably interfering with my therapy. Therapy is probably interfering with my life. My life is probably interfering with .... I don't know, something.

This is probably all the pain of separation. I don't know how to separate from him and still be connected. I told him today that I'm afraid I won't need him. And he said that's okay, that I can still come even if I don't need him, even if I just want to tell him the good things that are happening in my life or the bad things.

Why didn't that make me feel any better? Because I don't want to separate from him yet. I don't want to move away from him yet.

Whenever I run up against this pain, I just want him to hold me and let me cry. But he won't do that. And I don't know where to take my pain. It's such a nightmare.

Are you saying that you think you are wanting to find something wrong with him so that you don't have to feel so much pain about him? Like, if you knew he was just some mediocre, inadequate person like the rest of us, you wouldn't have to be so sad that you couldn't have him?

I just...I'm not sure that would work. Because the pain you are feeling about him probably isn't about him in the first place, you know? You feel love and attachment towards him because he's meeting some of the needs you have, that nobody has ever really met before. And you feel pain because he can meet a few of your needs but it will never be able to make up for what you were lacking in the past. I don't see how that is going to change no matter how dismal a partner he might be in that hypothetical situation...

s

Liese, I couldn't get your point with the first post and I have a female T - so couldn't relate, but I get your point with the 2nd post.

I know a lot about my T as I have known her for a long time and we have worked together and known each other in different capacities. This has been vital for me. It is the missing link that got me back to seeing her. I need it so that I can trust her. She tells me about her life - just because... I already know about her home life. She refers to her family by their name and to other clients I know she probably doesn't. SHe tells me when she is on vacation and where she is going so that i have a point of reference and I feel calmer. We both have children sports on the weekend and she tells me what she is doing - something we have in common. I need all this. This all maintains a link for me. Without it I would be super crazy. I couldn't go to another T and have to ask them for all this or to find this all out. Just writing this, i can't believe how lucky I am. Mental note - thank T for trusting me and being so open with me.

Is this the type of thing you are referring to Liese?

If I didn't know T before this current therapy - I don't think any T in this country would give me this level of "intimacy" or information. I really don't.

SD

quote:

I just...I'm not sure that would work. Because the pain you are feeling about him probably isn't about him in the first place, you know? You feel love and attachment towards him because he's meeting some of the needs you have, that nobody has ever really met before. And you feel pain because he can meet a few of your needs but it will never be able to make up for what you were lacking in the past. I don't see how that is going to change no matter how dismal a partner he might be in that hypothetical situation...

BLT that was perfectly said.

Liese... it is these feelings that we grapple with that actually brings us face to face with what we didn't have in the past and perhaps we have to grieve that loss and acknowledge that even though therapy can be very helpful it cannot ever give back to us what we didn't have as children growing up. It sucks, I know. And it's really painful.

But I do understand what you were trying for. You want your T to somehow disillusion you about him so that you can have a solid reason to take him off the pedastal and stop the intense need you have to be with him all the time. I think AG's explanation of why it's better not to know what they think about being our partner makes a ton of sense. Sometimes not exactly knowing is better because it then gives us the room to play with the relationship and facilitate transference feelings so we can understand why we feel and react the ways we do.

I'm sorry for the pain this attachment brings to you. It can definitely feel hellish at times. All I can say is to keep talking to your T about your feelings.

Hugs
TN

quote:

Are you saying that you think you are wanting to find something wrong with him so that you don't have to feel so much pain about him? Like, if you knew he was just some mediocre, inadequate person like the rest of us, you wouldn't have to be so sad that you couldn't have him?

Yes, BLT, that is what I want. Not necessarily some mediocre, inadequate person but at least incompatible enough so that I would not have to feel so much pain over feeling like I've met my soulmate and have to walk away.

(((MUFF)))

What do you mean, hold me? Like, hold me, hold me? If he would do it, I would fall into him arms in a minute.

(((SOMEDAYS)))

Interesting what you said because as I was reading some literature on resolving transference, I read that there are many techniques and a biggie is self-dislosure. I was thinking that he COULD in fact tell me things about himself that might help. The blank slate thing is hard.

(((TN))))

It's hard to believe right now that not knowing is better than knowing. It feels cruel to me. You don't feel cruel to me. It feels cruel to me. I can't help but wonder if part of it is about not having it in my present, outside of my T. A frustration and anger that I can't seem to develop it IRL or haven't been able to. And part of it is not wanting to move away from my T. A frustration about wanting to have what I have with him IRL but a fear of losing what I have with him as that happens. It feels like a trap.

I don't know how to grieve him with him.


Thanks for listening and helping me to sort it out.

Liese

This is such a hard subject to get my head round.

Because I was having transference issues with all sorts of unavailable or inappropriate people before I started therapy, I chose to see my particular T. based purely on her photo - I know, it's crazy but I have to be honest. I knew I'd fall for her and wanted it to happen for real with a T. so I could understand it better. Yes, I still feel a bit guilty for 'using' her this way, and i knew I was taking a big risk. I deliberately set myself up for the heartache of what I now know is called transference.

Sure enough, it happened, first session, big time, I was totally in love!!

I've said to my T. "I'd marry you today if I could", She replied "oh I'd drive you nuts, and besides I haven't got enough knives or forks for two of us" I said I'd bring my own, then she said "I snore loudly you know" and I replied "that's OK, so do I" I think she was answering me without giving me an answer if you know what I mean.

I still love my T more each week, not less, even though I've found out stuff that has surprised me. Not enough to knock her off of that pedestal obviously

In reality, probably not knowing if she would be a compatible partner is the best thing, hard though it is to deal with. As AG said, we may not get the joy of hearing the yes but we avoid the pain of having a no.

Deep down i suppose I know my T. wouldn't be a compatible partner. I asked myself, could I live with her if she still worked as a T.? Could I go to work knowing she was with clients discussing attachment to her, discussing transference with her. I don't think so; how much anxiety and jealousy would that release? Other people having the same huge feelings to my T, to my partner, as I had as a client, whoa! - much too hard to deal with.

I just hope, someday, to have the same feelings for someone IRL as I do towards my T. right now, but you're right Liese, it does feel like a trap.

Keep talking it through.

Best wishes.

Liese, when you talk about him about all this - tell him that it has worked for me and my T. My T tells me a lot, obviously she trusts me and it helps me. I don't have to go "looking for her" - I know a lot about her, I know roughly where she is, what days she works, some family things about her - it just helps me make her to be a person and where she will be. I feel that I am not stumbling along in the dark. I do have a lot of attachment problems and problems internalising her and object constancy issues - so i need this information.

Yes - I am super confused at where attachment to a psych and to a friend begins and ends and the boundaries that go with all that. I am not saying it is all perfect because I struggle with this daily, but she gives me enough to make me feel safe with her.

I don't have the erotic transference - but I do have confusion about friendship boundaries and whether she would be a friend. Knowing a bit about her - makes me "idolise" her much less and breaks that fantasy that she would be the perfect friend for me. That is why I think that disclosure from T's helps reduce some of the various transference that happens with us all.

SD

quote:

I don't know how to grieve him with him.

This feeling makes so much sense to me. I do not have the erotic transference, but I do often wish that my T was a friend or an older sister. It is hard enough to tell people in my life how I feel about them even when they probably return the feelings. It is almost cruel to ask someone to try to work through painful feelings about a person, with that person, and especially knowing there can be no reciprocity.

It does feel like a trap.

But I also can't see myself talking to anyone else - having to start my story over - learning to trust another T. Trap, trap, trap.

I find the more I know about someone the more I can love them; see them. So, even though my T1 has personality traits I know I'd never get along with (as a friend or something) I love her spirit more and more as I learn about her; even her faults and stuff. She isn't as disclosing as my other T seeing her as authentic over time (I got to see T2 a lot more at first so got to see so much of her person that it was easier to bond) has strengthened our relationship; she's Rogerian (client centered) which really places an emphasis on the authenticity of the T.

Anyway - maybe you would actually fall more in to a trance for your T? It is going to be hard to grieve him with him but if you can make it through it will be amazing growth

(((AVOIDANT))))

Love your screen name. I took that PD test a while ago and it said I had all the PD's. I just took it again recently and now I have all but 3. LOL! I guess that's progress. But I was highest in the avoidant category.

Anyway, that's very interesting that you fell in love so quickly with your T. I think it's great that you knew it was an issue for you and you decided to do something about it head on.

quote:

Could I go to work knowing she was with clients discussing attachment to her, discussing transference with her. I don't think so; how much anxiety and jealousy would that release?

Yes, it would be hard for me too. I'd also have a hard time being married to an OB/GYN. LOL!

((((SOMEDAYS)))

My last T was a woman and I too had trouble with the boundaries re: frienship, etc. I didn't know anything about transference at the time and was mortified when I found out about it.

My T never ever talks about his family. I know he has a daughter because his secretary mentioned her to me. He doesn't have any family pictures and only has a picture of his dog in his office, who is very cute by the way. Aww, he does love penguins and has a stuffed penguin in his office. And recently, I noticed a picture of two adult penguins hovering over their baby penguin and forming the shape of a heart and it made me think of him, his wife?? and his daughter. I felt jealous thinking that that's what the picture represented.

He occasionally might talk about something he did over the weekend but only once did he ever say "we". With that one exception, which was recent and is what threw me into my current crisis, he would always say "I" did such and such.

I don't know if he just doesn't disclose with me because I can't handle it or if it's his policy across the board. I might ask him that next week. And ask him whether or not he might think it could be helpful.

((((COCO))))

quote:

But I also can't see myself talking to anyone else - having to start my story over - learning to trust another T. Trap, trap, trap.

As painful as it is, you made me smile there. Trap, trap, trap.

I was researching transference the other night and what I came across really horrified me. Everyone wrote about how painful it was. One woman was in pain for 10 years with her therapist. It seems to me that there should be a better way to deal with it, that the profession itself should be able to find a more effective way to deal with it. I just don't plan on languishing in these feelings forever. That's why I'm trying to go at it head on and just dig it out.


Just to update, I am feeling a bit better this morning. I had a good cry last night over the fact that my T doesn't love me. IDK why he can't love me in the agape sense. But he won't go there with me. It's just a very difficult relationship to have with someone on an emotional level. For me anyway. And it pisses me off. Anger is a good thing. At least for me. Very motivating.

xxooxo

Liese

((((Liese))))

Glad I could make you smile And transference pisses me off too! I do NOT want to be the woman in pain for 10 years over a therapist.

Sorry Liese, it's been a long hard day at work. I've only just worked out OB/GYN !! LOL indeed!!



Love your sense of humour..

(((CAT)))


We cross-posted. I think my T probably considers himself a Rogerian also. At least Carl Rogers had a huge effect on him. I don't know how you meant the quote below but at first I took it to mean that the longer you have a relationship with someone, the more you like them - without even knowing much about the. That is what is happening for me but maybe it has more to do with how accepting and caring he is each time I go in and with every crisis I have as opposed to what I really know about him and love about him. kwim? I guess it all comes down to that it's all about how he makes me feel about me.

But on second reading, I think that you meant the more you actually know about them, the more you like them?

quote:

I find the more I know about someone the more I can love them; see them.

quote:

It is going to be hard to grieve him with him but if you can make it through it will be amazing growth

I hope so. I just have to get over my anger and feelings of humiliation re: the feelings not being reciprocated, I have to get past myself in other words.

(((((COCO)))))

You did make me laugh. Thanks. I needed that.

((((AVOIDANT)))))

Glad you worked out what it was.

New Update: I did feel better but also sad. I called my T and he called back even though it's his day off. I asked him if he was pushing me to separate and he said that I was the one doing all the talking about leaving and that he's not going to push me to separate, that it's going to be at my pace, and he's not going to abandon me either. He did, say, however, that it was good to talk about separation. I told him he was going to fast, that I wasn't ready. But I suppose the dialog has already begun. It was nice to talk to him and it helped to counterbalance all the pain. I wish I didn't have this darn part stuck in the separation cry.

g

((((MUFF))))

quote:

I liked the kind of person he was. He was the nicest one I ever met, until I could connect with others like him, both male and female.

You are lucky Muff. He sound like a great guy. I hope that will happen to me too, that I will be able to connect with others like him.

quote:

He was an all positive mother, father, sister and brother to me, and my best friend. His acceptance of me helped me to accept myself, and others like us.

Yes, mine too.

quote:

It wasn’t an easy, or fast process, but it was a necessary one to find my place, here within.

Wish it was easier and faster.

(((((MIA)))))

So nice to see you. I actually told my T a little story at the beginning of the last session about the US President Lyndon B. Johnson. President Johnson was quite quirky and held meetings with other heads of state as well as with his own secretary in the bathroom while he was going to the bathroom. I thought, wow, what a level playing field that would be. Imagine therapy while going to the bathroom.

I thought my T would enjoy a good joke but he looked a little taken off guard, like he wasn't quite sure how to take that. LOL!!!

I hope you are right that transference = pain = movement.



I did the unthinkable today and I didn't mean to. It just happened.

When I was talking to him on the phone, at the end of our conversation I told him I hated him. I immediately felt bad about saying that, so I said, I don't really meant that. And he said, I know. And then I said, it's opposite day.

You see, I've never told him that I love him and I was only planning on telling him (although he knows and I know he knows) on that last day when I walk out of his office for good.

It certainly wasn't in the plan that I tell him that. So, when I got off the phone with him, I immediately started to panic that it would push him away. That he'd get scared.

And then I asked myself, what is the big deal? There should be more love in the world. We should all be able to love freely without being afraid that people will get scared.

After that, I realized that I haven't loved that many people in my life. Not like this. My Dad. A couple of others.

And then I remembered that in my FOO, no one every said they loved anyone else. It was too embarrassing to go there. As if there was shame in loving. Or it hurt too much.

The only time I told my Dad I loved him was right before he died. I knew he was dying and I really wanted him to know that I loved him. I worried that if I told him that I loved him, he'd think that I thought he was dying. But I had to say it anyway. I couldn't let him go without telling him that I loved him. So I did. And he said it back, although a bit strained, but he wasn't feeling too good at the time.

So, then I thought, you know, I really need to learn to love more people and to give love more freely. And it only seems fitting and right that it starts right there in therapy.

My kids are so different. They tell me and each other that they love them every day. My oldest won't go to bed without telling me she loves me and I say it back. She keeps repeating, "love you" until I respond. I don't know why it was such a hard thing to say in my FOO.

So, for right now, I've calmed myself down about what I effectively told my T today. That is, until I have to walk in there on Monday.

Liese

f

g

((((MUFF))))

Thanks so sweet. You made me cry.

((((CTL)))))

I agree with Muff. You are very funny. And I think it's great that you can get so much with someone who seems so different - on the outside anyway.

xoox

Liese

quote:

I don't know how to grieve him with him.

((( Liese )))

quote:

I just hope, someday, to have the same feelings for someone IRL as I do towards my T. right now, but you're right Liese, it does feel like a trap.

i agree, Avoidant ... it's one hellish trap and i continually ask myself "why did i step into this ... and how do i get out"???

(((CD))))

Thanks for the support. Good question: why did I step into this ... and how do I get out? LOL!

If you find out first, please let me know.

Does it feel like we're all trapped in WONDERLAND together? Could that be possible? Or maybe we're trapped in NEVERNEVERLAND. Ah, that sounds like more it. There are so many nevers. Maybe it's more like NEVERNEVERNEVERLAND.

Oh, I just lifted this from Wikipedia:

quote:

It is considered to be one of the best examples of the literary nonsense genre,[2][3] and its narrative course and structure have been enormously influential,[3] especially in the fantasy genre.

Nonsense and fantasy. That sums it all up sometimes, doesn't it?