The way I took it, he was just pointing out that both of you had a legitimate argument for being there, your time is important for both of you, and it's not always worth the energy of arguing in that kind of situation. I don't really think he was trying to take the other guy's side...I dunno. Do you?

I don't think he was taking the other guy's side. I think he was doing an analysis. Hmmm. Like, if I didn't back down and someone had to make an objective determination as to who should get to stay and what criteria they would use to determine who got to stay? It sounds like he might use, "whose time is more important?" as a criteria. Just how I read it.


In which case, I'm not sure I like what that says about him. In which case, I'm not sure I can work with him anymore.

You sure there's not something else going on here, Liese? It seems like kind of an odd issue to make or break a relationship. It doesn't even sound like he was thinking particularly hard about what he said there. But maybe you should explore this next time you talk to him?

Is it more the disappointment that he wasn't more demonstrably proud of your for sticking up for yourself?

I think you are reading too much into it because its a soar subject for you perhaps to compare yourself to this man and perhaps other men's contributions compared to yours etc.. I think the school messed up and it should't have pitted one of you against another.

OK, here goes.

If I'm you and that is my T, I am hearing what you are hearing, most likely.

However, from the outside, if my T said that to someone else, knowing him like I do, I know he would mean simply that those sort of arguments can be stressful and unproductive and even if you "win," leave you with a sort of bad taste afterward. I think once that sort of an argument gets started about who deserves something, who is more worthy, neither party can have a completely good feeling about it afterward. So, I would take your T's comment to mean that an interaction of that sort wouldn't have left anyone feeling good. Whoever had to leave would have been frustrated. Whoever got to stay might have felt either guilty about the effect on the other person or frustrated about having to fight for something they were already justified in receiving. The staff member would have been stressed beyond belief, most likely, having to make that decision and deal with the fallout.

Like, for me, if I have to fight for my rights, even if I win, it just leaves such a bad taste in my mouth afterward. And if I lose, complete devaluation. However, if I choose to set aside my rights, I usually feel pretty decent, because: 1) I'm acknowledging that I actually did have the right to whatever it is; and 2) the choice to concede was mine, so I staked claim to the power/control in the situation. I know that might not always be the healthiest way of dealing with things, but it's what feels safest to me.

Anyway, if my T made a comment like that, I don't think I would see him as evaluating who deserved it or even saying that someone making that decision would go based on whose time is more important. Rather, I would see it as him stating that the argument would have turned into that and it would have felt devaluing for one if not both parties to get into that sort of an argument, even if the decision was made on some sort of other criteria (which it was, in this case: who had "first claim"). Think about it this way, if both you and this other guy had been trying to justify to this employee why your time was more important, how yucky would that have felt?

I think that's all your T was saying. He's saying what's the point of going into whose time is more important, because EVERYONE's time is important to them. It's not something that can be objectively evaluated, honestly. And trying to do so would only cause frustration and/or pain on each side. So, I would say that your T's statement is actually that no one could make an objective evaluation of whose time is more important, so there would have been no point in getting into that argument and everyone experiencing frustration and hurt. Does he think that it's bad that you asserted the importance of your own time? I doubt it. I would bet he thinks it's a good thing. I suggest that you actually tell him outright how you "heard" what he said and allow him to explain. And also, that you felt like you kind of needed to hear he was proud of you for sticking up for yourself, because it was hard to do and the affirmation would help you do so again.

H and I get into these sorts of whose time is more valuable things on occassion, because he brings in a lot of money and my childcare work does not. So, at times, he literally sees his time as more valuable than mine (when it comes to having downtime, alone time, etc.). It is really a yucky argument to have and I agree with your T that it can be a pointless (and often painful) one.

Liese, you are looking for a reason to run. Plain and simple. You move closer, you get scared, you look for some fault in your T, you get ready to run because he has just proved himself incapable of understanding you. It's a cycle I am very familiar with.

I think the better solution is to bring that worry or concern back with you to your next session tomorrow and tell him how what he said made you feel. It's what I do now and it ends up working out so much better. I am also trying to be more mindful of my fear of moving closer to another T after what happened with oldT and also my background history. I'm also starting to be able to take in my T's real care and concern for me. It's evident in all he does for me. I was thinking the other day about all the really kind, caring things he has done for me that he really didn't have to do and wouldn't unless he did care. I think you can look at your T and find some of those things too, to balance out the comment he made.

The best thing to do is ask him about it. That is the ONLY way you will find out what he really meant. I know it's hard.

Sending hugs
TN

(((Guys)))))

Thank you so much. I think I know what's going on. I think I am really angry at my t because I am the one who is attached and I am the one who is experiencing loss. And he gets off scot free. So if I run, I can ignore my anger and idealize him in the way that I want to as my soulmate. But if I can be the "good enough" (winnicot) client who recognizes both love and hate in the relationship, then, I might actually have to face all the anger I have been burying not only towards t but also towards everyone in my life for decades. And that is really hard to do. So much easier on some level to idealize everyone and think life is just unfair somehow.

And I also realized that I am the one who brought the question of time and setting aside time into the discussion at the computer school and my t was probably commenting on the fact that if this guy wanted To argue, that would be his next argument.

Another therapy failure averted for now!

Liese,

This is so strange, me going through some of the same things.

I think that everyone has a good point here. I wanted to add something that perhaps may be relevant.

Often, I regret not asking for clarification from my T when he says certain things that rub me the wrong way, because I have a delayed reaction.It's like being hit, but it doesn't hurt till later. (I don't know how much sleep I have lost because of this )

In the moment, I have a tendency to just accept everything, swallow it all whole, without slowing down to process IN THE MOMENT so that if something sounds "off".. I can make sure that I walk away with a complete (or as complete as possible) understanding of what T. meant. Maybe it's because my thoughts are moving too quickly, and I'm not taking the time to understand what T meant.

So I'm practicing using the words: "I'm sorry, could you repeat that?" Could you elaborate? What did you mean by that?" etc. It's hard.

In reading all of this, it may be good practice to sometimes stand up for oneself in an appropriate manner (in real life and with T) and at other times, walk away. Just for practice, just to see how it feels to exercise one's sense of control and empathy, to feel what it is like to be in control in a GOOD way. To make choices. To know that we HAVE choices.

I hope that this is making some sense, in a way I am processing what I'm going through. BTW I had a consult. The consult T came to the conclusion that I am not a big fan of "submitting" to male authority (and I can't see myself ever wanting to, either, and that's OK) but it can be an "issue".

However, I must have other choices other than submitting/compromising myself, or telling the "male authority figure" to go fuck himself, or withdraw. Usually I do the latter, (and the F-you is internal) and I find myself doing that now. What else we do, and how do we take the high road without compromising ourselves?

it seems like some other choices are being presented here, and I will ponder them as well.

And I didn't want to just talk about myself, so you feel heard. In fact, I wanted to hear and validate you a bit.

I'm listening, and this is all quite interesting, and illuminating!

((((NUMBER9))))

Oh very interesting, what the consult said. How does that relate to your therapy, do you think?

Good point about stopping and asking T's what they mean in the moment. I need to slow down and think things through instead of just agreeing with everything. That would be a good habit to get into, to ask T to elaborate, or to tell him I don't understand.

I didn't give what he said a second thought until I was looking for another reason to bail but I do really think I'm avoiding anger.

How is therapy going for you?

ooxoxoxxo

Liese

Wow Liese, what a great insight. It's great that you've been able to shift from your T's comment and its initial impact on you to seeing what was really underlying your reaction. I can relate to what you're feeling as I can also find it much easier to keep my T (and others) in a 'good' light rather than face and own my underlying feelings of anger and disappointment.

Hey Autumn,

I was happy too that I was able to do it. Part of it for me is not being able to get past my love feelings for my T. It's not as intense as it was before. It feels more stable now. I feel more stable, although I'm sure some of you would beg to differ considering my most recent threads. But I do feel like the relationship is something I can count on.

My T's wedding ring came off a year and a half ago. My problem is that when he shows up with a ring on his finger that will be the saddest day of my life. I told him today that I am not convinced that I should continue therapy with him, that maybe I should see someone else and just grieve him and move on with my life. He disagrees. It felt good to feel wanted but ultimately I have to do what is best for me. I'm really not convinced that staying with him is for the best.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Do you think it would be better if I changed T's and found a nice woman T and did my grieving and moved on with my life? What advantages are there to staying with him? What disadvantages?

Is there something I don't want to face or accept by leaving him?

It is all feeling like a thorn in my side, looking at him twice a week and that shred of hope that won't die. Needing to feel close. Wanting to feel close. Afraid of getting there. Sad about what I can't have though who knows how good it would be? Who knows what kind of a partner he would make? Maybe I should ask him to make me a list of all the things I wouldn't like about him? If only we did therapy in the bathroom, maybe I wouldn't be so head over heals.

Part of it all for me is that I just can't ever imagine having this kind of intimacy with anyone else. And that makes me really sad. I can't imagine feeling this safe with anyone else, wanting to cuddle up close to anyone else.