wondering if you're defending against something here muff by minimising or not taking on board the full impact of T expressing his love for you

It is complicated GE.

Personally, I don't feel he does love me, but I might be wrong. Again, does it matter how we feel? And if in fact I am denying that I do love him, how would that change my therapy? Would 'things' happen faster, easier, would it slow down the progress of therapy or continue on as is?

I want to be able to feel free to feel both negative and positive emotions in therapy. I want to be able to rage about him and too him when necessary. I want to imagine doing things to him freely, and without punishment or judgement that in reality would kill him. Is that love?

If in the end of therapy I realize we do love each other, well and good. Meantime the relationship remains, enigmatic to me.

those are important points muff.
i personally realised not so long ago that my perception of what love is had been so horrendously distorted that it meant I couldn't take in healthy love. Bids for love led to rejection, shame and humiliation growing up. So I didn't associate acceptance, empathy and understanding with love until about a month ago.
In a secure bond, anything goes including rage. The love makes the intense hurt under the rage more accessible because you know you're not going to be rejected. Misunderstood maybe, but not rejected or punished.
Infants have murderous fantasises about their parents according to Melanie Klein. Its important the parents survive the fantasies and remain loving in the proces.

I trust him GE, but I *still* fear his rejection at some level. To me it is easier to understand hostile dependence towards him. He has always accepted my negative emotions towards him, and others.

No, my repressed infantile fantasies do not end with my parents surviving. I do. They threatened my survival by triggering my rage with rejection. They were not capable of love.

therefore T must survive your rage and meet you with love at the other side.
this is very, very hard work

He accepts my rage, and survives it. More importantly, I survive it. He doesn't have to love me to do that GE.

He will continue to accept my repressed rage until enough has been vented for me to love myself.

I work harder than him in therapy. I always have.

I do get the rub up from him, especially after venting rage. It helps me to trust him more when the next 'bomb' goes off. I pat myself on the back too.

There are many signs of healing Draggers. The main one is minimal anxiety, and the ability to connect with others like me, like you in a good way. There is more acceptance of my anger and less need of me to validate it. I am more visible to me and others out there, and in here.

T is very genuine in caring about me and others. He doesn't have to love to show that.

I am not sure I would let love in at this stage in therapy. I first have to love myself enough to accept it. Repressed rage prevents me from loving a person. More the reason to vent it.

muff i think a T has to have some love for their patient to survive their rage. I know I wouldn't put up with my son's rage or my husbands angry outbursts if i didn't love them deeply. patients are always meant to work harder in therapy. i really do believe the self love we develop relates to the internalisation of love from our T's.
draggers you're sounding good to me

I think T's have to accept rejection from their patients, and not have their own feelings stirred up when we dish it out to them.

And dish it out we do. They are our positive parent image now, and anything goes when we feel the need to rage towards them safely.

I was never given that opportunity as a child or adult, until therapy.

I say again, does it matter if he loves me or not?

what would it mean to you if he did?
muff darling I'm not convinced there isn't a defensive, protective distancing manoeuvre happening here

Therapy would go on GE. Therapy is not about my therapist. It is about me, and my quest for self love; emotional peace, and emotional maturity.

I need him to accept my rage towards my unloving parents, whether he loves me or not.

I need a latte too.

latte and eclair time

You betcha!

Too much sugar in that one GE?

its my 4th coffee of the day. about to crash!

I don't ever recall thinking I need T's love Blu. It was never a goal of mine in therapy to do that.
However, I did want to know wtf was wrong with me that my mum didn't show me love or like me.

I guess every time we step into T's office we ask ourselves that same question, especially when we already know our T's like us. They accept us warts and all. Why didn't our mums do that?

Very painful stuff Blu. Heartbreaking.


Another !!!! I'm gonna run out of 10 cent pieces directly.


"Whenever this happens, I go through the same cycle of anxiety followed by hurt, then a kind of freezing over and indifference to T "..HIC

That to me *is* therapy.

((muff)) ((blu))
for me i've found knowing my T loves me has allowed me to go to the deepest, darkest and most humiliating and excruciating corners of my soul and let him see, help and soothe all the overwhelming distress and pain. ITs been incredible. I've seen there was nothing about me that was wrong, it was my mom was a narcissistic, rageful and jealous sadist

I have gained the same from T GE, even when I raged towards him. He is my mother father sister and brother, and I express my rage towards them all through T.

Knowing we were not wrong does take time to feel it.

Well done Blu.....I don't believe you gave too much information..you were just expressing your anger and frustration....this is what getting in touch with your feelings is about....it is regaining the balance you need to get through the things you need to get through. ALL these emotions are normal and good to express. My belief with therapists is IF they could allow themselves to LOVE their clients they absolutely would. I do believe that they CARE deeply about their clients, but as professionals they have to keep an emotional distance or they would be of no use to us at all and all sorts of horrible, confusing emotions would come into the therapy. I am not undermining how you felt about your therapist being late at all, i understand your frustration, but try and give it a little perspective - maybe the guy who walked out was having a really bad session and he needed her for just a little longer - it says a great deal about her as a therapist. Just a thought. But you had great courage in expressing your feelings in the moment and i think your therapist would be proud of you too!!

When it comes to the need to vent rage, there is very little logic.