Hello from BB

blackbirdMember

Hi, psychcafe forum buddies! I've been awol for a long time now, due mostly to my confusion about therapy, and some personal issues that have made it very difficult for me to post.. I've been missing everyone here, and thinking about all of you quite a lot, and hoping that your experiences are going well in therapy. This forum is such a great place, and it is always so nice to come back and visit, and see the support and love still flowing here, and the progress that old friends and new are making, through all of the good times and the bad times as well. ((((((psychecafe buddies))))) I just want to send you all my support and prayers and thoughts in your healing.

My update is that I am still with "Cowboy T." I had a bit of a bump when I realized that he would not support any attachment I might form to him, and that his aim in therapy is certainly not to foster that kind of thing. It really threw me for a loop. But then I realized that what I have with him is just a really good, solid relationship of support. I can bring anything into that room, because he doesn't scare me, and I feel like I'm on equal footing with him. So it's working out for me.

I'm still struggling with overpowering feelings that come out of nowhere for my old "Guru T." It can be quite agonizing at times, and Cowboy has been through a lot of that with me. Last night he told me that he thinks the powerful attachment I still have to old T is because of things that are missing in my relationship with my H (basically, any sense of attachment to him at all) that old T provided in some way, by allowing such a deep emotional connection at times. I think Cowboy is really careful not to provide stuff that I need to find elsewhere- but he is neither cold or withdrawn. In fact, he even hugged me back after I had a really rough session. I won't say it had no affect on me, because it did have some effect, but it was more like a sense of having a moment of connection with someone. I wondered if having hugged him for comfort was some kind of deal-breaker, but he was the same as always this week. I still do not feel any attachment to him, beyond a kind of friendly respect and banter- and feeling of it being good to have a place where I can be myself with someone, since he doesn't have anything to lose. He's a good guy, but he doesn't feel "stronger or wiser" to me- he's just a good person to bounce things off of, and he cares, but I could never hurt him so it's safe to be me..without having to carefully monitor everything that comes out of my mouth in order to avoid being insensitive or offensive.

My big problem is that I'm wondering how long I should stick with this therapy- since for me, it's an odd thing- a place to be me for a little while, where I don't really care what the other person thinks of me so I can be free- but isn't giving me tons of insight, really, or huge ability to change or be vulnerable since there are certain things in my marriage that I am powerless to change and really have to find a way to just live with. I'm wondering if it's possible/acceptable to continue to go to therapy indefinitely as a place to "just be." To find myself within the context or another person being there, reacting? Something. It's like if you were married to an amputee, and went to somebody else for hugs? A bit like that. It's really painful to have to pay for that kind of interaction, but I find that I am simply not able to open up on that honest a level with friends or my spouse, since I feel that it is wrong to expect that of anyone without "compensating" them for having to listen to me- in some way.

Thus- therapy. Yeah, I pretty blatantly am paying someone to have time to take an interest in me, since I can't find it in me to just randomly talk about my feelings or experiences with someone- it literally feels selfish and yucky to expect someone to listen to my sob stories for "free." With guru T it felt selfish even though I was paying him, so maybe this is progress. haha.

Has anyone ever had any success moving past this? I find I must be using therapy as a place to be in control of the realtionship- I'm paying, I can leave any time, and I don't have strong feelings for my T. It feels pretty utilitarian in ways. Maybe it's a control thing on my part- I don't have to risk getting hurt again or being vulnerable to him, I suppose. I just don't know how to get past this. My problem is that I get hurt too easily in relationships, and I just don't bother trying anymore. yarg. I'm wondering if therapy is helping or hindering growth for me...maybe I'm just using it as a way to avoid having to be vulnerable in relationship. I feel like such a cold person, after what happened with Guru T. It just feels like I have no warmth left for others, unless they are "weaker" than me, or I can find a way to be "on top." Not in a mean way- but as a way to be a "nice person."

So I'm just throwing this out there..wondering if anyone has any insights or advice for me...

hugs to all of you- I really do think of you all with care-

Love,

Beebs

2/16/128:47 AM

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sadlyMember

Lovely to have you back Beebs. I have no insight or advice but I have a welcome back hug

I do need my therapy at the moment that I LONG to get to a place where it is something not so urgently necessary. My t would probably nudge me to leave if he thought it wasn't very necessary.

I guess you talk to him about all this? Does he think it is necessary or an extra?

2/16/128:52 AM

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bltMember

Good to see you, Beebs!

Maybe the real work you need to do in therapy now is to figure out what you're getting out of it that you don't get in the rest of your life, and then decide whether you can find a way to get those things elsewhere, or whether it's OK to allow yourself to keep using therapy for those purposes.

I have had a somewhat similar experience to you since I switched T's. I'm not too attached at this point, and I'm not sure how badly I NEED to be in therapy. Yet, I've allowed myself to keep doing it to just let myself *experience* what it's like to have that hour of total safety every week. Sometimes I think just the act of allowing myself to have something like that, just for myself, is itself a challenge and also healing somehow.

2/16/129:20 AM

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True NorthCo-moderator

Hi Beebs... it's always wonderful to see you around. Thanks for updating us on your situation with Cowboy. I just want to offer up the possibility that you do have some attachment to Cowboy and there is nothing wrong with that. The reason that you may not realize this is because it is not that same intense attachment you had with GuruT. It is a more healthy attachment and it feels so different that you may not recognize it. It's a quiet kind of attachment that is helping you to grow even though you may not realize it. I have no doubt at this point that I am attached to my T. He is leaving for vacation and it's horrible and I already miss him so much. But... it's not that same kind of intense all consuming attachment I had for oldT. That does not mean it's not helping me heal and grow.

I'd also like to mention a quote that goes "An unexamined life is not worth living"... I think it was Socrates who said that. So I feel that being in therapy for whatever reason is helping you to examine your life and to make discoveries, gain insight, practice good relationship skills and to just for one hour, feel safe, protected and allowed to focus on you and your needs. My T told me today that therapy is the hardest thing I will ever do but if done well will be a priceless gift that I give to myself. I think that even discussing why you are in therapy and how you see it, with your T will be part of that self-examination. Part of therapy.

I am curious though as to why your cowboy does not "accept" attachment. How does he view the therapeutic relationship? Does he deny that there is the possibility of feelings going both ways in a longer term, intimate therapy? Is he confusing attachment and dependence? I'm curious because he seemed to be relationship oriented. I can understand why you would have had to get past that "bump" in the road. It was like when I had to get past the bump of no hug and the bump of the new chair (still working on that).

It's so nice to see you posting again. Sending you hugs.

2/16/122:07 PM

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starfishMember

Yea feathery one, what a nice surprise!

Lovely to see you back here again, well done for soldiering on with Cowboy-T and even for getting a hug

I hope you can realise that your stories are certainly not sob-stories and you have a need to be heard as much as anybody. Getting hurt in previous relationships is so damaging, I really hope that more trust in the relationship with Cowboy-T comes in time.

Big hug to you,

starfishy

2/16/122:19 PM

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yakusokuMember

(((((BB)))))) I just want to say that it's so good to hear from you. I wish I had some advice on the therapy stuff, but I think in my current state, I am the antithesis of wise and useful right now. But, I'm glad you have a safe place to bring your honest self into.

I also had a similar question as TN on whether Cowboy is distinguishing attachment from dependency, because I had the same sort of "relational" feel from the descriptions of your sessions.

2/16/122:20 PM

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incognitoMember

(((BB)))

I'm so glad to hear from you. I'm also glad that cowboy T is still providing you with a safe place to be. I am surprised you don't feel attached to that even if it isn't cowboy T exactly. I wish I could feel safe enough to be myself in therapy.

I hope talking about it with cowboy T helps you decide whether to continue with therapy.

2/16/122:57 PM

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lieseMember

(((((BB)))))

It is so wonderful to hear from you and I, too, am glad you are hanging in there with Cowboy T. I was also dismayed to hear that Cowboy won't accept your attachment. Just a little confused. I would hope he would accept whatever feelings you bring into the room.

I'm hoping what he means is that he will be more consistent with you and so the end result is that you won't wind up feeling the way you did with GuruT?

"Thus- therapy. Yeah, I pretty blatantly am paying someone to have time to take an interest in me, since I can't find it in me to just randomly talk about my feelings or experiences with someone- it literally feels selfish and yucky to expect someone to listen to my sob stories for "free." "

BB, the above quote really struck me because it's not just about talking randomly about your feelings or experiences with friends. And you are not just paying someone to take an interest in you. This all has to do with the ability (or inability) to get intimate with people. And it seems to me that all of us on the forum have trouble with this to some degree.

So, that is the difference. Cowboy T will be able to hopefully spot where and how and when you get into trouble. He won't react like someone out IRL and it will give you the opportunity to grow.

You might have to protect yourself for a while and that is okay too, especially after what you went through.

"but isn't giving me tons of insight, really, or huge ability to change or be vulnerable since there are certain things in my marriage that I am powerless to change and really have to find a way to just live with."

I just wanted to comment on the above because it has been my experience that therapy has given me tons of insight or a huge ability to change things in my marriage because there are two people involved in my marriage. For me, understanding the role I played as a child and in my marriage has taken a long time to see. Accepting all these people in my life for who they are also means that I need to see myself differently, more capable, I think, and it also means facing some deeply rooted fears. All of this stuff takes time. At least it did for me.

So, it may feel like you are treading water. BB, and that's okay considering all you have been through. You went through A LOT with GuruT but YOU had the strength to leave. You have to give yourself a lot of credit for that.

Hope to see you around more often!

Liese

P.S. I am editing this to add that I think it might actually not be a good idea to randomly talk about your feelings with people IRL simply because people have all sorts of hangups. It's best to work it all out with Cowboy T before you let yourself be vulnerable.

2/16/123:17 PM

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hopefulMember

Beebs,
So glad that you're back! Wish I could help and do understand about the H part...had and still do with lacking in some ways "not affectionate type" but I just do fun stuff to get him going...although you may have a different issue. I think like Alpaca and just allow yourself that hour for yourself...maybe you're getting more from therapy than you realize...I have felt like stuff wasn't happening but yet it really is. Go easy on yourself!
Hopeful

2/16/1210:48 PM

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ninnMember

quote:
I think Cowboy is really careful not to provide stuff that I need to find elsewhere- but he is neither cold or withdrawn. In fact, he even hugged me back after I had a really rough session. I won't say it had no affect on me, because it did have some effect, but it was more like a sense of having a moment of connection with someone. I wondered if having hugged him for comfort was some kind of deal-breaker, but he was the same as always this week.

Hi BB. I have missed seeing you here.

What you wrote above is what my therapy was like early on with my T.

It is completely different now.

I think therapy is so confusing!!! I am sort of in a place where I go back n forth, up n down, about if I even want to be there spending the $$.

2/16/1211:05 PM

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beaglemumMember

Oh (((((Beebs))))) great to see you and know you're going pretty well - all things considered and it's just great that the Cowboy really appears to understand and care for you in a really healthy way!! I'd really like to thank you for some things you posted - I really resonated so much and was able to articulate stuff to my dear T that you had written that applied big time to me also!!!

Have no time just now but wanted to say "hello" back and well done.

s, Morgs

2/18/129:28 PM

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xoxoMember

Hi BB,

Good to hear from you!

quote:
I'm wondering if therapy is helping or hindering growth for me...maybe I'm just using it as a way to avoid having to be vulnerable in relationship.

Maybe you are just being hard on yourself, self-critical?

quote:
With guru T it felt selfish even though I was paying him, so maybe this is progress. haha.

Maybe in close relationships, you feel you have to punish yourself from 'getting something' from another?

I don't think your therapist isn't accepting the attachment but rather, he likely doesn't work with transference. It might not be wise to gauge your therapy and goals on what you read here. This is a small population of people, many of whom gather here for common interests. However, theories are like a tree-there are many branches which are all part of the same tree-not right or wrong. Just different branches.

And I really do think psychodynamic therapy is generally best for deeply-rooted issues, but there is no one-size-fits-all; it can also be more harmful than helpful for some-and any honest clinician would reveal that. (btw-the blog excerpts posted by Liese are a fine example of psychodynamic/analytic thinking written for the non-clinical population). Some people literally relive the pain via transference, and this type of therapy does tend to promote (for some) life that revolves around your therapist, especially with more frequent sessions. It can, for some, stifle progress rather than facilitate growth. Or it can drag on for a long time before change is realized.

There are many means for self-growth.
Here's an interesting article about different approaches to helping one patient:

Comparing Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Interpersonal Psychotherapy, and Psychodynamic Psychotherapy

Don't beat yourself up over the attachment issue. You two have a real relationship whether or not he works with transference. And it sounds like a healthy one.

Perhaps your therapist can soften your superego a bit so that you can be more accepting of yourself? Self-acceptance is hard! But there are many ways to get there, BB. I don't see anything wrong with working with this therapist, anything self-defeating about it. Quite the opposite. Just my opinion.

(((BB)))

2/19/1212:39 PM

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lieseMember

My question is, can and will the transference go away if you have it but the T doesn't work with it? Will not working with it give the client the feeling that there is something about them that is unacceptable and not loveable?

And, BB, can you expand on the bump you mentioned in the following:

"I had a bit of a bump when I realized that he would not support any attachment I might form to him, and that his aim in therapy is certainly not to foster that kind of thing. "

BB, only if you want to expand, of course.

HUGS,

Liese

2/19/121:30 PM

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lieseMember

quote:
because he doesn't scare me, and I feel like I'm on equal footing with him.

oh, BB, this caught my eye. Just wondering if you were scared by GuruT and that fear is paired with the attachment feelings, which you associate with love but is not. Alpaca mentioned being intimidated by the T she just left and I was also intimidated by my T for a long while. What is the connection here? Is it obvious to everyone except for me?

Liese

2/19/122:19 PM

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bltMember

That's an interesting observation, Liese. Seems like fear and love might be a bit mixed up for many of us. I know my mom is intimidating as all hell; even my husband is scared of her sometimes!

2/19/123:20 PM

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room2growCo-moderator

Beebs! Nice to see you!

Glad to hear things are plugging along with Cowboy T, and it sounds like the equal footing has created that solid relationship with out the need for attachment? Maybe cause you know that your relationship IS solid and he isn't going anywhere, so there's no need to worry about the attachment? Dunno.

quote:
Yeah, I pretty blatantly am paying someone to have time to take an interest in me, since I can't find it in me to just randomly talk about my feelings or experiences with someone- it literally feels selfish and yucky to expect someone to listen to my sob stories for "free."

Well, you could look at it as you would going to a doctor? The doctor's sole job is to help you stay physically healthy - no attachment, no strings, they are there solely to keep you alive. Sounds totally fine when you put it in the context of the medical field, so why not apply it to the mental field too? Cowboy T is your sounding board, his sole job is to make sure you are heard and to help you problem solve. The boundaries by which Cowboy T is bound keep the relationship solid and safe, whereas if you were seeking help from a friend to talk to or problem solve, then there is the feeling of "owing" them a favor in return, which might turn the friendship into an unbalanced, resentful relationship. By paying Cowboy T, there is none of that cause he's doing what you've hired him to do.

I love the quote TN posted - the unexamined life - sometimes we need help in examining things from an objective, unattached person, something our friends and families aren't always able to give.

Anyway, just my $0.02 cents, take em or leave em, it is nice to see you either way

2/19/123:24 PM

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mayoMember

Hey Beebs!
Nice to hear from you.
I rather like the description you gave of your relationship with your T. I think that takes growth and maturity to get there.

I am a bit concerned about my relationship with my T, as I am seeing a...perhaps unconscious effort on his part to keep me dependent on him. this is all new, and it very well may be inaccurate, but this last, txting episode of strong anger on my part (resulting from emdr) and his response to it has me wondering. Like TN says- I think you just might be having a healthy attachment which involves honoring each other, caring and listening, but not in a dependent way. Not a- "I am responsible for your feelings, and you are responsible for mine" kinda way.

I don't know whether or not I explained myself clearly- as it is a new possible insight- born out of red flags in this last go around. I think in a way- my t might be a bit like me, when he is triggered- reacts somewhat like I do, and that's not good.

Anyway- just rambling- but it is good to hear from you again. Hugs to you, yea- it sounds like you are using your T in a way that works well for you. That attachment stuff- can be brutal. Necessary in many cases- especially in the beginning- but hard, hard, hard, when the lines get blurred.

Be well Beebs!

back!

2/21/123:45 PM

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blackbirdMember

it is so lovely to see all of you-thank you for the responses.

unfortunately my computer is on the fritz, so I was unable to return, and respond to your helpful feedback. now I'm on a teeny weeeny machiny and i is hard typing! so short but hopefully reply to all of you- later if computer get's fixed!

in terms of the concern about attachment- no I just think he neither rpovokes nor discourages attachment, but that he would equate the type of attachment that transpired with Dr.***** as unhealthy dependency, and I begin to see it that way. now it seems time to analyze or discuss-whatever- the transference that happened in last therapy, and why it was so powerful for me. so a lot of questions coming up in my mind, now due to Cowboy questions. tough stuff, hard to figure. but no- I wouldn'tleave, as I am clearly much better, much healthier. and functioning better- world's better. long ways to go I think, but getting there slowly, without the fear of being "hurried along"

I
yes there was the fear and intimidation from perceived power who deigned to be kind to me- with last T- and I did seem to relive something I don't understnad when in T with him. so the equal footing and lack of intimidation that comes with adulation- is making me free to talk and explore things, moreso, than those long silent sessions I did used to have with Dr. *****

but no emotions- pertaining to cowboy himself, beyond a gentle liking for him, and enjoyment of making him laugh, which I have fun with. all in all it is good- not problem free, but that is to be expected. doing well, overall. will be back to try to read and to respond- when PC is available again- I hope it will be.
love to all!

2/22/128:00 PM

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lieseMember

(((((BB)))))

So glad to hear it all. Thanks for the explanation re: the attachment stuff. It is helpful to me because you know I was in the same place as you. Any insights gained for you are insights gained for me.

xoxoxoxo

Liese

2/23/123:46 AM

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