Hi!

I just wanted to add that I find it a bit grounding when I run into a boundary or a limit with people. I do, of course, initially run into "omg, I'm horrible for asking for something that I'm not allowed to have, get away needs, get away!"

So I am glad that you found the boundary, that you worked through the stuff that said you were bad for asking, and got to the place where that boundary could actually make you feel safe. What good work you are doing!

I bottle all my questions up and never ask because I am too scared. I think I would rather die than push a boundary and get into trouble.

That says a lot about my upbringing. Do something wrong and you get belted!

Oh Yaku,

I love that question. And maybe he felt he couldn't answer it but I am not sure that it was necessarily inappropriate. Another T might have answered it.

I am glad he didn't answer it because to me he was telling you that "(Y)ou don't have to worry about taking care of my wife's feelings or my relationship with my wife. That's my job."

I'm also glad that the experience was so positive for you.



Liese

I agree with SomeDays, I don't ask T any questions that she might not be able or want to answer because I don't want to feel like a terrible person when she can't answer. Don't want to get in trouble, or feel like I've done something wrong.

Kudos to everyone who can ask the questions, and can handle the therapist saying they can't answer them. Maybe I will get there eventually.

If they're willing to say no, you can trust their yes is freely given.

MMM - Thanks! It wasn't easy. I do have a very self-destructive reaction to having run into a boundary, because I see hitting the boundary itself as a violation of the other person. I'm pretty sure that's how boundaries were set in my family. You weren't warned, you crossed one, and then you were smashed to bits over it. So, I learned to just have a second invisible gate inside of the fence to keep me from ever getting near it. Don't have to do that with T, though obviously.

SD - Yeah, I held onto all my questions for the longest time. Then, I would write some of them, but if he tried to actually ever answer one, I would freak out and yelp, "I don't want to talk about that!!!" I still do on occasion. I still mostly do them via journal and I find it really helps if I actually just put the fear out there along with the question like, "I know this is probably too personal," like I did with that one. That way, the person is aware I'm not trying to violate their boundaries. Well, I can only manage this with T after a lot of intense work on it. Still, with all of that, I still felt the need to obliterate my existence for a few minutes after he said he couldn't answer.

Liese - Well, yeah, I don't think he found it inappropriate, but he thought it would be not right of him to share his wife's thoughts and feelings (like he was protective of not disclosing stuff that was HER stuff--I'm assuming for him to talk about her reaction to it would get into why she feels one way or another). I'm also glad he didn't answer, but I was still able to tell him I worry about it. The whole thing wasn't positive, but once I got past the road bump where I want to die, it was fine, lol.

Coco - It has taken several small risks of feeling like a terrible person and seeing my T will sit with me through my terribleness for me to know that it will ultimately turn out OK. When we talked about answering those questions (which were from a few weeks ago), it took me over 20 minutes to decide whether I was up for it, because I know how strongly I react. I think the way to get there is to take a little risk that makes you stretch just the tiniest bit beyond what you can comfortably do. That's how you build any muscle. It's not pleasant, but that's how my trust with T has grown, tiny stretches and the resting and seeing what happens.

AG - Yeah, the much more succinct way of saying what I was trying to get at, thanks! Will you be my editor?

Asking your T about water reminded me of something Draggers - Recently when T and I had that coffee together, we were standing close to each other (in the line at the cafe) and she said 'OMG, I haven't even asked you if you still drink coffee'. And I said - Yes of course. Then i went blank and I thought - OMG, she just asked me a normal question - (these questions whizzed thru my mind: Does she even drink coffee, does she only drink tea, what is she going to buy ) here is where I have been given full permission to ask her the same question back so I BRAVELY said "Do you still drink coffee?". And she said YES. Ha Ha. We were IN the coffee shop..... when we worked out we both still drink coffee!!!!!

I still remember being so scared at asking her a question.

Somedays

Yep. We just exchanged stories about our teenage boys - and yet there are huge patches I don't know and will never ask. I just wait to be told and am too terrified to ask. The thing is - I think my T would tell me stuff. I am just too scared. As i wrote that I felt a big lump of anxiety inside my gut.

So much of my behaviour is based on fear. Hit a boundary = fear - well for me I stay so far away from them - I don't think I have ever come close to one. Talking about anything to do with my past = fear. If my T ever said to me that I was nudging a boundary - it would devastate me.

I have told her that there are things I would like to know but I am terrified of asking. So much is unsaid. But i love my T. Can't say that to her though.
SD

Aww (((Draggers))). You always have such kind things to say.


Draggers, SD, your conversation reminded me of a somewhat ridiculous moment of my own. On Monday, I told T I had a particular song we hadn't done for years in church in my head from the moment I woke. We know a lot of the same songs, and because I was worried what his reaction would be, I couldn't tell him which until it came up again much later in the session (like over an hour). I finally mentioned which and he said, "Oh, I'm not a big fan of that song." Ugh, crushed. Not that I adore the song, but of course I am a miserable failure of a human being for having a song my T doesn't like in my head all session and all day, lol. I don't know, but I was stuck in being an awful person for liking the wrong thing for a while. It's not even my favorite song, but one that was moving me for the moment. I started to think about what he might not like. It's too boring to play. Maybe something in the words is wrong, inaccurate somehow. Maybe he thinks I have wrong beliefs now. Ugh.

It made no sense. It took me remember that the Friday before, he had mentioned they had done a certain song the previous Sunday and he liked playing that song...and I had blurted out, "Ugh, I HATE that song." I explained that I liked the words of the verses and the harmonies, but the chorus was too peppy for me and I just didn't like it. I realized that my hating the song that he liked changed nothing about how I thought about him, whether I liked him, etc. I thought, "Hrm, we have slightly different tastes in music, but there's some songs we both like," and shrugged it off. I'm sure he wasn't thinking, "Oh no, she hates me and thinks I'm stupid, because I like this peppy song." So, taking a moment to think about that has helped me get over that I chose a song for us to do at church this week that my T in fact dislikes.

I know it's kind of a silly example, but that's really how extreme my reactions are. It's just that I feel safe to have those reactions when I am with T. There is no where else I can let myself descend into, "I deserve to die," and know I have an anchor in the midst of it.

quote:

he had mentioned they had done a certain song the previous Sunday and he liked playing that song...and I had blurted out, "Ugh, I HATE that song." I explained that I liked the words of the verses and the harmonies, but the chorus was too peppy for me and I just didn't like it. I realized that my hating the song that he liked changed nothing about how I thought about him, whether I liked him, etc. I thought, "Hrm, we have slightly different tastes in music, but there's some songs we both like," and shrugged it off. I'm sure he wasn't thinking, "Oh no, she hates me and thinks I'm stupid, because I like this peppy song."

Hi Yaku, I had this same experience about something with my oldT and realized that it didn't change how I felt about him and made no difference. It is certainly interesting to experience it from the other side of the dyad and it really brings home the experience that they have with us. It is not so easy to change the way someone feels about you and a difference of opinion does not signal an end to the relationship at all. It helps to experience it personally though and not just have someone "tell" you.

You are doing great work Yaku.

Hugs
TN

quote:

Originally posted by SomeDays:
I bottle all my questions up and never ask because I am too scared. I think I would rather die than push a boundary and get into trouble.

That says a lot about my upbringing. Do something wrong and you get belted!

THIS. So much this, SD. When my T offered email contact between sessions as he thought the extra support would be helpful, I freaked out. It wasn't my idea, I hadn't asked for the contact - probably never would have either - but I was still terrified of getting into trouble for being demanding or needy. It took a lot of talking to work through that one.

I did ask for an extra session for the first time last month and while T didn't have one available, he knew just by my asking that it was an emergency so offered to call me instead.

Can't imagine asking him about personal stuff, though. And I'm glad he doesn't offer it as I had an ED therapist who had terrible counter-transference and aspects of that completely undermined my recovery for a long time. To be honest, I'm pretty sure that's exactly why my T doesn't tell me anything personal - he's seen the damage she did.

landa

I just read the replies and caught up and I realised that for me - I have a 1000 little things - tiny things that I can't even ask T or bring up with T or feel comfortable about - it feels like they are a 1000 tiny pebbles blocking the flow of water from a pipe.

If I can't bring up and ask T a simple non-threatening, non-boundary question - how the hell am i going to be able to talk about the important stuff?

Recently I made something for her - nothing flash, but I know she will like it and it will be special for her and significant. Had it in my bag all session and never gave it to her. Couldn't even give her a gift.

My t tells me what she does on weekends, so I know where she is, she shares so much of her life with me - it helps me so much. She texts, emails - she knows about attachment, she is flexible, open, she cares, she is the best (and I have told her) and now after 9 months I TRUST HER. I know she wont leave me, I know she won't terminate me, I know she cares. But I can't talk to her about the tiny stuff let alone the big stuff.

It is all about fear. I told her that to talk to her means I have to take a step off a cliff with my eyes shut and hope that she is there to catch me, but I would rather stop therapy or die than to take that risk.

Somedays

(Yaku, my apologies for the slight hijack. )

quote:

I have told her that there are things I would like to know but I am terrified of asking. So much is unsaid. But i love my T. Can't say that to her though.

SD,

I think you just need to give it more time and build more trust. In an odd way reading this was a relief for me. It was really difficult to read your post about getting coffee with your therapist because never in a million years would that happen with my T. In some ways, he holds very strict boundaries. He's fairly open about his personal life in terms of facts, but is very careful to keep therapy about my needs, not his, so many of his feelings are kept outside the room and he is VERY careful that the relationship remains in his office and is about therapy and only about therapy. Which, if I am honest, has worked really well for ME. So it can be hard to see people getting things I know I never will. But when I read the quote above, it hit me that I feel very free to express ANYTHING to my T. I have told him I loved him (on a number of occasions) and have been able to talk about him loving me and about a very broad range of feelings I have about him. So this brought me back to remembering what I DO have instead of what I don't. Which is alot.

But I also realized that it took me a number of years to get to this level of trust and security where I really know it's ok to bring all my feelings into the room and that if I hit a boundary that's all that happened. I hit a boundary. It's my T's, I'm not supposed to know where it is ahead of time, he is capable of letting me know where they are, and running into one is not going to get me into trouble, or damage the relationship, let alone end it.

You'll get there, it just takes time. And in the meantime, you get to enjoy coffee.

AG

Yaku - I think AG said it well - a no helps us trust the yes. I've found this true in my work too!

quote:

Couldn't even give her a gift.

Hi SD - I had this problem with my T for a very long time took 2 years to break through. I'm sorry you have this issue, too.

I ask my Ts questions sometimes, or follow up. I can feel the boundaries when I start worrying about them. I think it's pretty normal for Ts to throw the gate there at some point. My Ts do let me know they take care of themselves and I get little glimpses of what they do it's very regulating and builds trust and confidence in them for sure.

Interesting discussion!

TN - You're so right. Experiencing it personally makes such a difference. Now to trust those experiences in spite of other ones that made such an implicit impression on me. That is the challenge. I'll get there eventually.

landa - Yeah, negative experience with counter-transference certainly would put me off asking too. I'm sorry you had to experience that, but I'm glad your current T is looking after that area for you. That must make things feel safer.

xoxo - Thank you. Just recently, a lot has shifted and I do feel freer with T and a few others. I still have to ride the waves, as ever, but I think I've gotten to the place where it is easier to trust what's on the other side of them, because I've been there enough times with my T. But, don't quote me on it, because I fully expect to be ready to run sometime in the next few sessions. It's about time for a major crisis or retreat of some sort.


SD - Your description is just perfect. Like 1000 tiny pebbles. That's how I spent the first year of my therapy with T before I finally risked to put a list of questions out there and he pushed me to not run away from having them answered. Even now, I can't ask him stuff in person. It is always in writing, though he would never answer in writing (well, other than me texting "Still there?" and he's like "Still here!"). When I ask questions in writing, I have to be willing to discuss the answers in person and every time it still feels like drowning. Like I said, it took me over 30 minutes to even decide whether I was willing to hear the answers to the questions I had put out there three weeks earlier in a journal. It's not easy going, but as trust builds (and like AG says, it just takes time), it can go from red alert, ship is going to crash and burn to something like shields up, sensor sweep. Haha, I'm a Star Trek fan, so not sure if that makes sense. Anyway, even moving from feeling like asking is death to feeling like asking is potentially near fatal injury is a huge improvement for me.

AG - Don't apologize! If my thread generates discussion in a way that is helpful, it makes me happy!

I'm sorry if some of this stuff triggers the "what I don't have" button. That happens to me from time to time too about silly stuff. Like, my T doesn't do intellectual discussions about psychology with me very often and I get jealous when I hear other Ts interacting on that level, because it's something THIS part of me is into. Like, I would like more education from him, but he is more intuitive/relational and that has it's good sides too. I also would give anything to feel like I could express ANYTHING to my T. I feel like everything I tell him either ends up being a battle to get there or a terrible ordeal to recover from. Yet, I keep doing it. I must like torture.



I agree that it takes as long as it takes and often really long to get to a point of trust and comfort (or just non-life-threatening discomfort?) with boundaries. It sometimes feels like I am moving really fast considering where I started, but many of my disclosures to my T are still an exercise in pure will at this point and it is very hard to do it "live" in the room without completely going into shutdown. It's almost like a death of connection that he has to resuscitate me from when I try. When I think of the fact that we are doing 2-3 doubles per week and have been for at least nine months now, it starts to feel like I am moving inches with the sort of effort that should be generating miles of progress. I guess I'm sharing this not for any particular person, but just because others seem down on themselves for "not being there" yet. Outside of my immediate family, therapy is the main "work" of my life right now and so while I feel like I have made a few major strides, every inch is a hard-fought battle. I don't want it coming across like it is just the easiest or most natural thing. It's not, but it's worth it to me to keep going for now. So, I guess, I'm just sending out a, "Don't be discouraged!" if you are struggling there, because I still am. I still have to check with my T whether he is there between sessions pretty regularly and I still worry the answer will be no, that he isn't there, or doesn't want to be, or doesn't like me or won't work with me anymore, because of some mystery way I am wrong or bad. It is still like that all the time, carrying those feelings. I guess I am just learning to carry them a little less and instead, put them down and ask if he'll look at them with me instead.


Edit:

Cat - Crossposted. Yes, AG did a perfect job of succinctly describing the main reason for starting this thread...which is that boundaries can feel good in that very way. I'm glad your Ts take care of themselves and their boundaries so well. You deserve that sort of care!

Hmmm. When I first went back to my T it was because youngT terminated me and I was in trauma. Then i discover that the attachment stuff, BPD and other takes a long time to fix. So i put a 12 month timeframe on it (!!) - and now I realise it is 2 years just so I can start talking to her!!!!!!! I am not sure I even want to fixed most of the time.

I have known her for 16 years. Been with her in 4 x blocks of therapy and I STILL can't talk to her.

AG, sorry that my coffee story prickled stuff. I was in a quandary about posting it and I did ask a friend from the forum for advice on it. I realised that it could upset people. Thing is - I have NO idea if it will ever happen again - I would never ask - I have to wait for her to ask and it will be totally random. This is a BAD thing for me. It triggers me as it activates the boundaries and trust stuff. I will take whatever she gives me, but I won't ask.

Thing is - we used to do this at previous times in our life - it is where we wear the other hat.

And no, despite knowing her for 16 years I can't tell her I love her - I can barely look her in the eye or tell her anything.

So it is positive and minus for all of our stories isn't it? ON the whole my T is wonderful and yes - I do tell her that a LOT. I thank her and always give her positive (and negative)feedback and I try my best to be honest on the things that feel comfortable.

I have never told my T my life story - I wonder whether she sits there and wonders what the hell happened to me or why I am like I am. She must be busting her gut to find out. And she never asks....

SD

quote:

And she never asks....

SD - This rung something in me, because my T never asks either. He said most of his clients come in and spill their guts, just flow naturally with it. I have the hardest time of anyone he has ever worked with just starting to talk about anything beyond small talk like sports and such. The reason we started doing our doubles is it took me until 45 minutes in to even start for the longest time and now, while I can actually talk before that time, it still takes me 45 minutes to get comfortable doing parts stuff. There are so many things I can't seem to find a way to say, because he won't ask about them. He just waits. The waiting for me is nice, but there are things I will never have permission to share unless he asks a specific question. It's like, the hurt is so big, I don't even know how to start. Like taking a mass of tangled yarn and trying to pull out just one thread cleanly. I need his help, but he doesn't give it, often doesn't even seem to know how to help...I can barely let him know I need that from him and even when I can, it's not like we can play 20 questions (more like 1000) until he gets the right one that allows me to speak. Sorry, just thinking of a few things I am all alone with that it feels I will never be able to say. That's what your quote above reminded me of.

quote:

AG, sorry that my coffee story prickled stuff.

SD just wanted to be clear that my feelings and reactions to what you posted are just that, mine and my problem. No one forces me to stay with my T and live with his boundaries, it's my free choice (and I believe worth it). When I said his boundaries worked for me, I meant it. I don't know that they would work for everyone. I think the clarity has been very important for me because I've had such a hard time dealing with my hope of getting more than therapy. Which because of my personal history, I think would have really damaged me. So, for me, it has been important to have a T like my T.

That this is true about me should never be a hindrance to someone else speaking about their experience.

AG

Unbelievable Yaks - your last 2 posts are filled with so much relevant stuff for me.

I think I might talk more if only my T would ask, but she respectfully and patiently waits. She has seen me when she has pushed me too fast and it wasn't a great situation, so she is gentle. I told her yesterday that she needs to ask more questions and to talk more - to prompt me to answer her.

Just wish she was a mindreader!

I am going to have a good think about this before tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for talking this, it is helping me a lot right now. Sorry for hijacking - but yeah that sometimes we all get into rich discussions and it just develops - go with the flow I always say. (except talking to my T of course)..

SD

Total get it AG. and likewise. When I get prickled by comments, it makes me stop and think and reflect and this is always a good thing for me.

Good topic, Yaku.

Lots of stuff here to think about.

TN