******possible triggers*******

Oh wow...........this is such a big question, and a difficult one, and I have struggled with it as well.
One thing I have learned is that forgiveness is something we often feel like we "have" to do; and sometimes we feel like we are "bad" if we don't. Those feelings can come from programming, religion, and other sources, but forgiveness isn't something we DO......but rather a state of being IMO.
Those emotions............anger, sadness, confusion, ignorance, we buried those for a long time, because we had to to survive. When they surface now, it takes time to work through them, and we need that time, we need those feelings, and we need to acknowledge, and accept that it's ok to have them. Easier said that done, right? We are so hard on ourselves, and I know my T has often hammered that point with me on many occasions.........to be good to ourselves is not something that often comes easily.
I think more important than forgiveness, at least at first, is emotional separation. When we can separate ourselves, detach, and observe from a different perspective, forgiveness comes easily as part of that process.
I am smack in the "vortex" of this myself, but have not yet completely separated from those that abused me.
Not sure if any of this has helped, or made much sense.

Sending big hugs..............big good to yourselves!!! You deserve it!!!!

Blu
xoxo

(((sweet D))) i am so sorry for what you've been through and that my thread triggered you you are right, they don't deserve anything from you and i am glad that you feel empowered - that is truly remarkable after all that you have been through and i admire your strength! i hope you feel better soon
i really liked what you said - that forgiveness is a 'choice', thank you for that.

blu, thank you for your insightful words and i'm sorry if this was triggering for you too. you are right, i do feel like its something that i 'have' to do, like i'm a bad person for not being able to do it. i am probably trying to jump ahead too fast and should focus on what i feel at present and then forgiveness might come one day. and yes, i havent even reached 'emotional separation' as i feel like i can't even comprehend what that might be...

the truth is i havent even forgiven myself... so how can i even begin to forgive others...?

thank you both for your moving words and i'm sorry everyone for such a difficult and triggering post, i will put a warning on it.

puppet

(((((PUPPET))))(((((DRAGGERS)))))((((((BLU)))))

I am so sorry about everything you went through. And also feel for everyone else. Just wanted to send big s

xoxo

Liese

Hey, puppet! just some musing thoughts...

Forgiveness is a really really tough one. I think that it is nearly impossible to do when someone is not asking for forgiveness- without something from outside of ourselves..I tend to think that when it happens, it isn't that we lost something, we actually gain something. Inner peace, letting go, stop letting the abuser's actions continue to hurt in us. Have I attained this? I doubt it- I don't know. I don't think I've even gotten to the point where I can even feel anger about stuff that happened yet, let alone moving on to the step of forgiveness. I think the main thing is not to forgive in the sense of "oh, what was done to me, that's totally ok, I forgive you." But to feel a very justified anger, even wrath at what was done...but come to the point, somehow of wanting *justice* , yes- but not evil to happen to the person or persons who was so wicked themselves. In other words, of forgiving the debt they owe us- which would be for them to have to suffer everything you did.
Who among us wouldn't wish that a person who has done serious harm to another would truly repent it and change to become now, good and genuinely loving? That would entail that they would *want* to pay for their crime, wouldn't it? Getting away with it would not be good for a person who commited such crimes...even if they did come to regret the hurt they caused. So I think the concept of forgiveness is itself misunderstood, often. Yet, it's hard enough to come to the point where we can fully recognize that what was done was undeserved and just not our fault, and that we are good, and what that person or persons did was evil- coming to the step beyond that and letting go of the pain that they caused and wishing for justice (true justice will involve what is good for the perpetrator, ultimately- as in paying for crimes and repenting them) but not wanting evil for them...is another thing altogether. I suspect that many people forgive, though, without even realizing they have done so. Justified anger is no wrong. To desire justice is certainly no wrong. And to never trust or want to be vulnerable to such a person again, is most definitely not wrong.
To forgive is divine..literally, a spark from a good source comes into us, I believe, and rids of something imprisoning.. it is complicated and difficult to forgive.. it is something extra..I don't really understand how it can be "done-" but I know that it does at times happen, and it's possible. Watch out for preliminary forgiveness..forgiving without having fully experienced the extent of the emotion of anger inside is not a good thing for those who were abused, I do not think.

I'm getting off the soapbox now...

big hugs,

BB

This is a question, that is/ was in my mind for a long time. And it messed me up a lot. I agree vith Draggers, it is the same for me...I can not forgive my parents and some other people...I was irritated, because I felt i am such a bad person...

Now in my therapy I am trying to forgive myself...to be nicer to myself...to tell myself that it wasn't me, that it is not my fault that I am alive...that I am not exactly what my parents wanted from me to be, that I am ok and good person eventhough I won't forgive them for the hurt they caused me...

I am just focused to find a little peace with myself, inside me, that my chest won't hurt anymore...I need that...

Hmmm...maybe this post didn't help...but i needed to tell this...So thank you for your post!

Forgiveness is interesting....

My H and I have been separated for a month now. I am angry. I need to forgive him. I know I can, becaues I have forgiven my mom, for instance, for past hurts. So, I think two things need to happen (1) process (talk, talk, and talk some more to my T about my anger, and when I can, even tell H, "I am angry about _____," in a nice firm tone to get it out there (but this shouldn't be necessary since I have a T to help me), and journal every time I get an angry thought in my head and (2) TIME....oh, time, time can make the pain less (as long as I have done #1 and processed it)

I find it easier to forgive my mom, and she has hurt me a lot, than my H. However, I can NEVER tell my mom, "I am angry about _____." But I can do this with H.

I also have a difficult time forgiving myself....this one is tough....

It definitely makes me less angry, to forgive, "let go" of the pain, not forget, but to have learned from it and grown into a better person....

thank you Liese! you are really sweet...

Beebs, a lot of food for thought...

quote:

But to feel a very justified anger, even wrath at what was done...but come to the point, somehow of wanting *justice* , yes- but not evil to happen to the person or persons who was so wicked themselves. In other words, of forgiving the debt they owe us- which would be for them to have to suffer everything you did.

i like how you talk about justice, i so want that more than anything! i think i'm gonna stop worrying about the forgiveness part for now as i still have so much more to do before that.

ninna, i hope your T will help you be nicer to yourself and eventually forgive yourself. that is my goal too, although i seem to often forget about it.

ninn, its interesting how you approach it in an organised sort of way, maybe its good to do that so that it doesn't get too overwhelming? anger at exes is really tough, it gets so mixed up with your hopes and dreams and the past and what you didn't get from your parents....yuck..... i hope it works out for you!

i think i will tell my T to stop judging me for not having forgiven my parents (even though she would probably tell me that its all in my head - her judging me i mean) but i just get the feeling she dissaproves, she thinks i'm stuck in the past and should move forward well, tough shit, i am where I AM!

thanks everyone and s


puppet

Hi Puppet,

I struggled with forgiveness for a very long time. The tenets of my faith call for forgiveness but I had no idea what it really meant or how to go about it. Like a lot of people, I thought forgiveness meant acting like nothing bad had ever happened. (I once wrote a megapost on this topic, but despite searching for it high and low, I can't find it.)

I hit a point in my recovery where I was really grappling with the need to forgive and was reading Wounded Heart by Dan Allender and hit his definition of forgiveness which was the first time forgiveness made sense to me. His take was that forgiveness comes in two parts: relinquishing and restoration. Relinquishing you can do on your own but restoration can only happen if both people do their part. The relinquishing part is the principle that BB talked about. Its the acknowledgement that wrong was done to you, that you really were injured by the actions of someone else (this was so important to me, because there was SO much denial about what happened and part of the abuse had been to threaten me to keep me silent) and that they deserved punishment. That you had a RIGHT to punish them. But you relinquish that right and allow God to handle that.

The other thing I struggled with was that I didn't WANT a relationship with my father. I actually hadn't since him since I was 11 and I wasn't about to go looking for him. And that's where the restoration part of the explanation came in. While we can relinquish our right to return punishment for wrong, we should not have to, nor is it loving, to restore relationship with the person unless there is geniune remorse about what they did, which includes a recognition of how they wronged you. The principal underneath this is really that acts of hatred harm both the person who does the action and the person it is done to. So you refrain from acting on your hate (however well justified). But you don't forgive before they repent because to let someone to continue doing wrong will hurt them as well as you. So to withhold relationship is a loving act.

Just as I was reading that book, I got a call from my older sister that my father was dying in a hospital a 17 hour drive away. She wanted to go see him before he died, and asked if I would go with her. It is a very long, complex story but I when we got to the hospital my dad was unconscious and when I first laid eyes on him (for the first time in 28 years) I experienced the deepest, darkest wave of hatred I've ever experienced. I ended up going to the waiting room and was praying and realized I was tired of carrying that hate, that I didn't like knowing it was inside me. And I prayed that I could find the strength to let it go. And I was given that strength and I relinquished my right to punish my father. I was able to walk back into that room and place my hand on his arm and tell him that I forgave him (I later found out that he was paralyzed on one side from a previous stroke, so I had touched the one arm that actually had feeling.) My sister and I ended up paying for the funeral (I was also struggling with Honor your Father and Mother ) and when we were at the funeral home, despite saying no several times, the funeral director put us on the phone with the priest who took my father's last confession. And the priest was able to tell me that my father knew he had hurt me but that he had loved me. I didn't know how badly I still wanted to hear that until I heard it. In that moment I was relieved that my dad was God's problem, because I wouldn't know how to sort it out. I hope he found forgiveness because it is only in Heaven that I can hope to ever had the relationship with my dad I longed for.

All that said, it took me years, decades of dealing with what happened to me before I was ready to take that step. Sometimes forgiveness can be used as a way to bypass facing the pain and hurt of what happened and trying to rush past it. It's important that a person can look at what happened and acknowledge all of their feelings including rage and hurt. You have to know what you're letting go before you can let it go.

I also believe that whether or not to forgive is not something I can expect someone else to do. It's very difficult and in some cases, I believe, close to impossible. And knowing what some people have suffered, it feels incredibly presumptious to tell them they have to forgive.

There's a book you might enjoy reading called Forgiving and Not Forgiving: Why Sometimes it's Better Not to Forgive by Jeanne Safer. She makes the case for not forgiving and I thought it was a good book.

AG

"Forgiving does not erase the bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future."

Lewis B. Smedes

hi BG, i think that's a good idea to focus on forgiving yourself and i love what you wrote :

quote:

I treat people (even people who have hurt me) in a way that I can feel good about at the end of the day.

i think that's so powerful and makes me start to look at forgiveness from a different perspective.

AG, thank you for your words of wisdom and especially for your very moving story. the second book you mentioned looks very interesting, i might look into it! which shows that i'm definetely more at the not forgiving end of the spectrum, but I'm ok with that. everyone's replies really helped me to look at it in a new way and to accept where i am at.

wisdom, that's a beautiful quote!

D, thank you for coming back and i'm glad to see you're ok! yes, its been such a valuable and insightful post!! thanks everyone!

almost the weekend!!
puppet