I guess what I want to add to the above post is for those who walked away... was it because of those unresolved intense feeling for your T or was it for another reason? I'm so confused I'm not sure what is driving me right now to tell him I'm leaving.

Any comments are appreciated. I'm really struggling. I also posted for med comments on another thread if anyone wantd to comment/

Thanks
TN

Oh TN, I am so sorry to read this. You are in absolute hell with this, and it must just feel unbearable. I'm sorry that I don't have answers to your actual questions because I haven't been in this exact situation with a T, but I really want to reach out and say we're here, we hear you and we will continue to be here as you go through whatever comes next. You are not alone.

I also want to say that as soon as my last T told me she was leaving I started having intense thoughts of self-harm and suicide, like some automatic biological reaction to the knowledge of abandonment. Because my attachment to her was not very fully formed these feelings didn't approach action for me, but I know that in your situation these feelings would be incredibly intense. I feel worried for you and would like to know if you are physically safe, despite the intensity of these feelings, or if you need to act to get yourself in a situation where you are safer? Are there ways you know of to do that?

I think one of the reasons these feelings of self-obliteration come up in the face of what feels like rejection and abandonment is that we bond to our Ts like we are tiny children - babies even - and they are our parents. I'm sure you know this already. When the feelings of rejection and abandonment come up they register very much as a threat to life. I don't quite understand why we then want to take control of causing the harm to ourselves (though maybe it is simply about having control of it) but I do know that I felt that impulse so strongly myself it is unmistakeable.

I'm going to post this so you know someone is here and listening, and then post more in response to other parts of your message.

Thanks for caring, Jones. I am safe for now. I was alone today and not safe this morning. The pain seemed too unbearable to live with. As fate would have it while I was at my most hysterical point, feeling in deep despair and sobbing out of control, my cell phone rang. It was my T calling to check on me. I could barely talk to him and he asked me if I was safe. This stuff is all so new to me this whole "safe" thing. No, I was not feeling safe or keeping myself safe... I was thinking of horrible things to do. Well, T, decided that we needed to met. I'm not sure if that was a good idea. I agreed but now I realize nothing got settled except he satisfied himslef that I was "safe" enough to leave so he could go home for the weekend with a clear head. Having a patient suicide does not look good on a resume.

I told him I promised to call a friend if I felt the need to take any action. I'm not sure if I have "permission" to call him. But honestly, how could I call anyone and put this burden of my mental health on them?

My little boy worked so hard tonight to give me a happy birthday celebration. I simply could not respond to him and he was so sad over this. I'm ruining his life by being so distressed like this. The crazy thing is... that I was feeling pretty good on Tuesday and Wednesday this week but when I saw my T on Thursday and he started in on this ... you need to find a better T bull and confusing me with saying he was not asking me to leave.... my head got so screwed up and all I could hear was he was abandoning me and then I cycled into this pit of hell where I am now...

Thanks for your concern
TN

It sounds like there are a whole lot of components to the emotional situation between you and your T right now and they are all coming too thick and fast to be worked through. I would say, though, that you and your T have worked through SO much to establish a close, safe relationship that there *is* a very strong base there, and I think there is a good chance it is strong enough to survive the current storm and be there on the other side.

You say above that you're not sure what it is that is driving you to tell him you're leaving, and I'd say it is that strong sense of rejection and abandonment - your feeling that you are not wanted by him, and that your email (your pain) was rejected. You are in a very, very vulnerable spot and it is imperative that you feel protected in that spot, so your self-protection is kicking in to get you OUT of danger, out of the situation of vulnerability.

But I would say there is something at least to hang on to in this storm: your T says he is NOT asking you to leave. While it seems like everything is changing, he is still there for you and he is not getting rid of you. So the feelings of shame and rejection and abandonment, while they are deeply bound up in and responsive to all these changing circumstances, are also partly triggery-past-feelings. What that very small part of you who feels abandoned perhaps does not yet see or feel is that he IS still him, still your T, still there for you. My strong hope is that you both will be able to soon - very soon - find a quiet spot in the storm where you can feel that connection again, and keep it with you while you work out the new ground.

The new ground sounds really complex. It sounds like a LOT is in flux at once, and that it's too much right now. It is not long since he started to want to work with your husband, and started challenging the separation you have between your T-life and your marriage-life.

I wonder if that kicked off some very threatened feelings for you, and helped to put the two of you into a really powerful reactive feedback loop. Now he is wanting to limit the kinds of contact and availability he offers outside session, to possibly introduce another therapist, to get you on meds. All of these seem to me like attempts not to get rid of you, but to make clear the limits of his abilities and availabilities, and to get other support in place so that you are okay for the next part of your journey. I suspect these reactions are in some part out of fear that he just can't be all that you need for that journey, and that things could get damaging if he tries to do more than he is able to. In other words, at least part of what is going on here is his sense of care for you, responsibility to you and responsibility to your long-term growth and healing.

Problem is, you are already immensely attached to him and vulnerable, and the "solutions" he's suggesting to the problem of his limitations (which is a problem in his sense of things, not in yours) are all really, really triggering for you. The very fact of his seeing that there is a problem of his limitations is triggering, let alone anything else.

I don't know if I'm saying anything at all helpful here, I just am trying to feed back the lay of the land as I am seeing it from what you've written.

The thing that strikes me as most critical in all of this is time. It seems SO much like you both need to slow right down if at all possible, and start winding back and unpacking this bit by bit. I know you have 'coached' him before on what you need, and that he has been really receptive to it. Perhaps that is possible again? And I can't tell you what you need, but it seems to me that the most important thing is that you need to re-establish the security of a connection with him before you start working together on understanding some of this new material bit by bit, perhaps starting with figuring out why there are new boundaries, what the nature of them is and what the significance of them is in terms of your connection to each other.

(((((((TN))))))) I hope something here is helpful in some way. If nothing else, we are here and listening. I'm thinking of you. I'm wishing you a safe birthday, and the hope that you can re-centre on your true north very soon.

Jones

Oh, ((((((((((TN))))))))))...I responded on your other thread on meds first and then read this...so I didn't know what was going on. I am so sorry, and I can't understand it, either...it seems so unlike him, what you ahve written about your T in the past. I know that the pain is unbearable, and it feels like he doesn't care...but then, why would he come over and shake your hand so nicely- he did NOT have to do that, and say the words "there, that feels better." Your T cares for you. Something has gotten mixed up, maybe. You must talk with him, I know it seems impossible, and even dangerous, but can you try?

Your boy will be ok, TN...it is not your fault, and your boy will be fine. I know it feels scary like you let your kid down, but it's not the same thing as not caring. He knows you care about him, and so he will be fine.

Be safe, TN, be safe. You are carrying many burdens alone, it is only natural that you should have a reaction like this to what was said. Yet, deep breaths, take a lot of those, now, and then think, can it be repaired? You are in a tricky situation, but first things first, some stability must be found through your T, before you can think of all the rest. Leave the rest alone, for now, and try to think, can you meet with him, maybe, to try to set up some additional support, such as thinking of a friend to talk to, or someone besides just him... just that, just that one thing? That may take some of the pressure off, a tiny bit is all I am suggesting it for. Then later, the rest can be dealt with together.

I imagine it feels like he wants to drug you so to not have to deal with you, no, that isn't true...most T's are trained to hand our meds when the going gets tough, that is what they are told will help the most. He wants to help you feel better is all, and he thinks this will do it. that is not to say, he is right, but I am certain that is why.

Please let us know you are ok, if you need to talk we are here.

(((((((TN))))))))

BB

TN, things sound extremely rough right now and i would implore you to please not worry about putting the 'burden' of your mental health on others. All people exist in communities, we all have care and responsibility for each other, and we all have times when we really need to take care from other people. This is one of those times for you. The most important thing right now is that you can get through with your life and your body intact - that is the number one priority - of course we want your mind intact too but minds can heal and bodies can't always. Please do whatever you can to keep your body safe.

Believe me, too, that there are many times when people - family, friends, Ts, folks on the internet, get a great deal out of being there for others in need. It's not exactly altruistic and not exactly selfish, but when you can offer care to someone in need it is restoring, and gives a sense of depth and meaning to life. So please, please, please reach out - keep reaching out - and turn away from that thought that you are burdening others with that.

While I'm sure that a patient suicide sucks like hell for any T, I am also sure it is not because of their resumes. I imagine you are pretty furious at your T right now, and I think that you have good reason to be - he is throwing all kinds of stuff at you without being switched on to how that is for you, and he seems to be doing a hopeless job of helping you regulate the emotional overload. BUT I also have a pretty strong suspicion that he genuinely cares about you and your wellbeing. You as you, and not you as some patient. I think this is why he rang you, this is why he met with you. Not to salve his conscience. I suspect he feels out of his depth, and I suspect he is very wary of offering more contact than he will be able to sustain in the longer term within his personal limitations. That is not because he doesn't care about you personally - it could be quite the opposite.

Why do I think this? Because of the relationship you've had up till this point. I know from what you have written here that you've felt deep and sustained and stable connection with him, that you've trusted him (considerably, even if not totally) and felt close to him, and that he has worked hard to explore ground with you that was professionally new to him. I don't believe that you were mistaken all that time.

I could be wrong. It is possible (though I don't think likely) that he didn't care all along, or that he's the kind of person who can just switch feelings of care and connection off. IF either of those is the case, you are in for an extremely rocky ride, dear TN, and I would absolutely hate to see that (as I hate to see this as it is). But we would still be here for you, others in your life would still be there for you, and there would still be ways through that hell. You would emerge.

Your son would emerge too, as he will emerge from this difficult time. It is a hard thing to see a parent distressed, but it is not in itself life-ruining. Please remember that what counts is the base relationship, the repairs, the long-run communication and love. He already has a mother who has put SO much into looking out for her own emotional health and availability - for him, I'll bet, and into specifically looking out for his emotional health too. That doesn't disappear because of a rough birthday.

Please take care, TN. The concern is genuine.

Jones

oh TN, my heart just goes out to you.

As far as your "burden" of your mental health? I completely agree with everything said.

It sounds like you feel like you are a burden on your T - and then assuming that about friends too. It's not true!!! I can understand feeling that way, I've been there. But you are worth it! Your friends would think you are worth it. You are not a burden.

It sounds like potentially things are changing with your T, maybe not ending, but even the changes can feel really abandoning. It's painful to even face the possibility of ending even in the best of circumstances. I also know from way too much personal experince what it is like to end it really rough circumstances.

No matter what happens - if you stay or if you go, if things stay the same or if they change - I can tell you that connecting with others (friends, a new T, this forum, etc) really helped me edure a lot of abandonment fears and feelings a lot easier. Just the fear of the potential loss can be a lot to feel, and having other people around helped me remember I'm not alone. It was more than a distraction or even what they said. Just connecting again and again really helped.

Your friends might be there for you in simple ways, even just talking on the phone together. It's really not a lot to ask. I agree too that your son will do well, he will be very ok.

I know it might be hard to believe, it was for me, but even if 'the worst' happens, it will get easier and you will get to the other side.

I have been through a really awful ending with my old T, and I was very close and attached to my old T. I had no idea how I would survive it or face such pain. But I did. It worked out ok. I actually ended up a lot better off in the end. For me, I still miss my T, but I'm actually really glad to have ended with her. I ended up finding different things I needed, things she couldn't provide, and have been healing not only from ending with her, but much deeper issues in the process. I also can still hold on to what was good and what I learned with her that has continued to help me change my life.

You will get through this too. How? It may be really hard to do this - but one thing I learned is to just take things one step at a time, as much as you can. Just focus on just the next thing. Just focus on the next day, the next step in this process - wherever it goes. It may turn out a lot better than you think it can right now.

And know we are with you. You are not alone in this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Oh, TN, as I was reading your post I just kept thinking no, no, no...too many changes, too fast. You must be feeling so blindsided right now. And the contrast between the way it was last year and what is happening now feels unbearable. I am so glad that at least you are coming here to post about how you are doing...please keep doing that and don't EVER feel like you are a burden, you are certainly not that whatsoever. Let us help you through this really painful time.

I can relate to that feeling of wanting to leave first before being abandoned. That felt a little like what I was doing when I went to talk to the couples T after that last horrendous session with my ex-T. Not at first, but after she said no one there was trained to do "that kind" of therapy (she called what I was describing "psychoanalysis-based"). Then I just started to spill everything that had been said along the way, knowing that this was probably going to ensure a transfer but just wanting to get it over with before he actually told me he would have to transfer me. So I could feel like I had some control over it. And I think Jones is right - it was that self-protection trying to get me out of that extremely scary place of vulnerability. And it sounds like that is what is going on with you too...even more so because you have such a close relationship with him.

I'm so sorry for this pain you are in, TN. I know you feel betrayed and abandoned and angry and so sad right now. But I do believe your T truly cares for you and does not see you as just another patient. In fact from what you have described of your relationship in previous posts, I suspect that this situation is tearing him up inside, too. If he feels he is not being helpful to you overall then he is obligated to admit that and do what is best for you in the long run, whether he or you likes it and feels good about it in the in-between time or not. And it doesn't sound like he feels good about this at all. Especially because he has led you to believe and depend on his learning how to do trauma therapy...and now for him to admit that he can't go any further, he must know how much that feels like the rug being pulled out from under you. Not that I'm trying to focus on his feelings here...just that I still believe you are very special to him, and always will be.

Do you have another scheduled appointment with him? Some folks on here have two T's...was your T thinking of you still seeing him, and a trauma T besides? I don't know if that idea is any more helpful, it was just something I wasn't clear about when you were describing your conversation.

TN please keep talking to us, keep posting through this. You will get through one small step at a time.

Hugs to you,
SG

TN, it is really painfull what you are going through. To answer your question: walking away from my T is absolutely beyond my imagination. The only thing I can imagine is unbearable pain and I can't go any further beyond that.

TN, I'm just wondering, is there a possibility that your T suggested finding another T, just sort of as a support to help you deal with the trauma (which he obviously is not qualified to treat). Is there a possibility that he never meant to abandon you as a patient/client but knows that you need additional help from somebody else? I can understand how this may make you wonder if he is going to get rid of you down the line.
I really hope that it is the case of additional support only and he doesn't mean to leave you alone.
And as Jones said, it is not about the resume. I don't think he has a clear head and does not worry about you.
Do not walk away from him TN. Maybe it is not appropriate to tell you what to do, but I am not a therapist so I can do what a therapist can't. So do not walk away from him. He is not leaving you. If you could hold on to his words that focus on him not intending to leave you... just grab them and hold on.

(((HUG)))

I just wanted to thank all of you who responsed. It means a lot. I can't write much now, the pain is still too strong. Hopefully I can come back another time and post something. Just didn't want you all to think I don't appreciate your support.

TN

(((((TN))))))

Oh TN how terrible, I read your hurt and pain and can only say that I, with everybody else here, wishes you some respite from this horrible time. Please hold on to the love and support here that is so freely given, that we really do care about you.

BB was so right, your little boy will be sad but will recover from that sadness. You must concentrate on you right now, to stay safe and be as gentle on yourself as you can. Don't look too far into the future if that feels hard or scary, just get through each minute or hour. It will pass TN, it really won't feel like it right now, but you will get through this.

Take care,

starfish

True North - first want to send you massive hugs! I’m totally floored by what’s happening with your T, it’s so completely out of the blue and I’m really really sorry you are having such a bloody hard time of it.

Something positive that I notice though is that you aren’t applying this to yourself as a failure in any way - that your pain is because of your feelings for him, for the close connections you’ve established with him that are now being threatened and undermined. I say that because in your situation (well in ANY situation where someone is seemingly rejecting me) I immediately experience it as a reflection of ME as bad and wrong - and it seems to me that that’s exactly what you aren’t doing and that says to me you have a really good sense of your own value and worth. Hold onto that

Having said that I could feel my stomach going down down down as I read your post, feeling the feelings I would feel if what he is doing to you was being done to me. I’ve read your previous posts with admiration how you’ve been able to effectively ‘teach’ him how to give you what you need regarding the trauma healing, and was thinking how humble and good he was for being so open to learning. Yet suddenly it’s as though he’s gone ‘enough - this ain’t my forte it’s too much for me I can’t handle it …’

Fear terror pain blackness I don’t have words for the feelings and thoughts that must be overwhelming you right now - and the thought that death is the only escape from them is a measure of just how bad they are - TN I’d say let yourself be comforted by that thought, it’s the bottom line level of control we can exercise when things are so awful there seems no escape - knowing we can make that decision gives us a sense of not being totally at the mercy of stuff we can’t control, it doesn’t mean you have to do it. Not going to jump in here and tell you to distract yourself, don’t do it, don’t think about it - it’s where you’re at and in such a profoundly bad place that I totally get the need to DO something about it. Just want to say, don’t keep it hidden away inside yourself, struggling with it alone - feeling suicidal can get right out of hand but if you can talk about it that really does help. And want to echo what others on here have said, you would in no way be a burden on anyone by reaching out for support in this.

My guesses are that your T’s professional pride has started kicking in, maybe he’s been struggling and realized he can’t go to the depths that you need, I don’t know I’m just guessing here but what he’s said and the way he’s been to you in these last sessions well hell I can’t even begin to think why someone would flip flop like that and I know I would be totally devastated and also, angry as hell. If he felt you could get ‘better’ help from another T, he’s sure as hell gone the WRONG way about letting you know. And also, that the real benefits you are getting from therapy with him is the relationship itself, as you’ve said over and over, his being there for you - and that he’s suddenly pulling the rug, that says to me he hasn’t realized what it is that’s helping you. Or maybe he has and has scared himself into thinking that’s not what ‘therapy’ is about?

What I find really disturbing is this:

quote:

He keeps emphasizinig that he is not a trauma therapist.... and that, basically, he does not want to be one and does not want to have to deal with me outside of session.

It sounds like he is suddenly setting up boundaries where none existed before, and that is awfully like making the therapy now about HIS needs, not yours.

Sorry I’m probably screwing you up even more, these are all things you must be spinning over in your head already.

Want to give a parallel example with experience with my ex-T (not really comparable because I had no close connection with him at all - but there are similarities with your situation). My ex-T seemed quite willing to go along with all sorts of things that I suggested to him that I believed would help me - every session practically I would be explaining to him that I need x y or z, that I needed him to do a or b or c and each time he was really willing to go along with that (well, he tried, but unlike in your case, he never succeeded). I ended up taking for granted that he would always be willing to change, to learn what he needed to do to help me and it ended up becoming my mission in therapy to finally get through to him how he ought to act, what he ought to say, the way he needed to be to help me and that seemed perfectly ok with him. But in the end he never got it so I left - then freaked and tried to go back to him because I believed he would be there for me, regardless of whether he knew practically how to help me, believing that he would be there for me was the most important bit for me. And lo and behold he turned around and said ‘we can’t do therapy together anymore - I can’t help you’ - meaning, what I needed from him he wasn’t prepared to challenge himself anymore to try and give to me. Now ok my situation in no way reflects the depth and consistency and connections of yours, but I wonder if there isn’t some similarity - that your T is starting to think, TN needs a whole lot more therapy-wise than I am able (or willing?) to give, if I keep turning myself inside out trying to meet her needs it’s only making me feel inadequate and out of control, and certainly not helping TN (sorry I have to say I find that second bit a cop out, but that’s just my prejudices, therefore won’t discount that he genuinely is concerned that he is not adequate to helping you as he feels you need).

Hm none of that is comforting or particularly helpful is it? I’m sorry, I can hear how completely f***ed this whole situation is for you and I really wish it was just some sort of massive misunderstanding that can be resolved when you next speak to him.

Going to stop here because I’ll only get into showing how angry I am at what he’s doing to you and that’s no help to anyone.

TN I’m so so sorry about this, and I also really hope you can talk this over with him, and that he will be able to reassure you on all fronts that’s it’s not abandonment, not rejection, that the connection is still there despite what’s looking like a major betrayal.

((((( True North )))))

LL

I don't have any wisdom to offer you, but I still feel compelled to post if only to offer my sincerest heartfelt hugs, ((((((((((TN))))))))))!!!

It tears me up what you are going through right now. It is my worst therapy nightmare to experience rejection and abandonment after having finally yielded my trust. I so "get" the urge you've had to harm yourself. Sometimes thinking of my kids is the only thing that has gotten me through safely. I really wish for you that this breech with your T will be repaired somehow, but no matter what please let us offer our support for as long as you need it.

((((((((((TN))))))))))))

I am so sorry for what you're going through. There is no more nightmarish scenario than taking the incredibly difficult risk of opening up and trusting someone to then have your fears confirmed by feeling like you're going to be abandoned. I can not imagine how painful and terrifying this must be for you. I know that it's probably not much comfort in the face of the pain of what you're feeling, but please know that we're here for you and that you do have people who care about you, want you safe, and want you here.

love,
AG

((((((((( TN )))))))))

This experience sounds dreadful. I wish I had some words that would be comforting but I don't think I have any just now, but I do want to add my support, FWIW.

I think you are 110% justified in being highly distraught over the changing of the rules, regardless of the reasons behind the change. It sounds to me like your heart has been broken while you are protesting for what you know you need from your T. You deserve a T who is capable of supporting you the way you know you need to be supported. Not getting a reply to an email when getting one is expected and appropriate would trigger the hell out of me, too. From what you describe in your post, your anger and outrage and heartbreak all sound completely justified to me.

Still, I hope there's a way to somehow sort this out with your current T. It seems clear that there is also a lot of healing attunement with him.

So, I don't have much to offer at the moment, but sometimes when I'm really, really struggling, this Mary Oliver poem helps me somehow.

---------------------------

Wild Geese

You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine.
Meanwhile the world goes on.
Meanwhile the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain
are moving across the landscapes,
over the prairies and the deep trees,
the mountains and the rivers.
Meanwhile the wild geese, high in the clean blue air,
are heading home again.
Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

---------------------------

Please keep safe no matter how. You clearly have the ability to progress and improve and feel better, and this hell will yield to a better place eventually.

Russ

((((TN))))

I have been trying to come up with the right words all weekend after reading your post. It seems that there are no words that I can say right now to convey how sorry I am for what you are going through. It is absolutely dreadful and I understand why it is so upsetting to you. Please stay safe and take gentle care of yourself right now.

TN,
Your pain sounds unbearable, and my heart aches for you. It is not fair that you have to carry this burden and feel so alone with it. I am so sorry.

I am glad that you were able to find a tiny microscopic speck of some hope to be able to post and let us offer some support to you. I know ultimately, unfortunately, and unfairly the pain is yours, but can you let us try to hold you up just a little bit?

Please, TN - Please be safe. Please. And try to gently take one moment at a time.

FOT
It's by Mary Oliver, and one of my absolute favourites. Thanks Russ for posting it. I always get real shivers when I read it Thise words are so gentle yet so powerful.

TN

quote:

Whoever you are, no matter how lonely,
the world offers itself to your imagination,
calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting
over and over announcing your place
in the family of things.

(((((TN))))))

starfish

How are you doing, TN? When do you see your T next? I'm sorry you are in so much pain over this.

I agree with what Jones said above; he is not asking you to leave or abandoning you, he is only suggesting that you need a more specialized therapist. He is doing this because he cares about you and feels underqualified to help you. Seeing another therapist doesn't mean you have to stop seeing him.

I think I recall you mentioning that your husband doesn't even know you go to therapy...? Is there anyone else in real life you can talk to now? Does anyone know about your T? I hope there is someone you can call or visit when you are afraid to be alone. A friend who can go out for coffee with you? Even if they don't know what's going on, it helps to just be with someone, sometimes.

Take care, and please keep us updated. We worry about you.

TN, so sorry it is so hard for you now. i know getting through it seems so hard, but you can move through it. you have such strength to be able to post it all, and that takes strength, and HOPE to do. so, you have that. build on thoses strengths, sweet friend. and as to advise?? what i wished i would have done, when the writing was on the wall with t1, was line up t2 and run a bit parellel until i felt i had a place to land. i don't recommend going it alone til you find a spot, should YOU choose to leave your current t. post here all you need to to stay connected, you can pm me and i'll call you if you need an unskilled fellow friend in struggles. really, i would be happy to talk, to be a friend.

i have kids, too, and i know the feeling that you can't even catch your breathe to heal, as you have dependants, so please know i mean that about phoning.

that abandonment fear is intense. brings me to five years old real fast. just know, that that five year old is only a PART of all of you, talk to her, comfort her as you would comfort one of us. accept her fear as real to her, and comfort her.

i wish i could hold you and help.

((((((((truenorth)))))))))

Hi everyone and thank you all from my heart for all the support and hugs and love I feel here. I will respond in more depth to each of you at some point but I wanted to show up to say thanks and tell you all how much this means to me. My heart still hurts so much but I see things now that I missed in my agitation last week.

I just got back from seeing T again. We talked and argued and he told me over and over that he is not terminating me, that he is not asking me to leave BUT... he feels unable to give me what I need, and he thinks I should see someone else to do this work with because he sees how motivated I am to heal and he feels that he is hindering this healing by not understanding what I need and how to best support me as I go through this. Then he told me that it is also an ethical matter and that he would be unethical if he did not make me see this. And I know he is hugely ethical and that is why I feel so safe with him and why I respect him so much. He says he can see 3 things happening... either I finally give in and see that he is right about this or 2) we just agree to disagree or 3) he comes to see it my way that he is the only T for me. He's banking on number 1 and I will settle for 2 or 3. What I do see more of now is that he really really cares about me and that this is not easy for him either. I told him if I must go then I will leave therapy with wounds open and bleeding and that is the way I will live the rest of my life. He didn't like hearing that. I told him I'm not leaving him and I can be very stubborn. He said I never have to leave him and even if the time comes when he is no longer around I will always have him in "here" (pointing to his heart). And he said even if I decide to leave for a little while I am always welcome to come back to him and I asked so why would I come back then if I heal with someone else? And he said, there could be other things that come up that he could help me with and I asked him like what? And he said...well you think of something and I said, okay parenting and he said okay good and then he said he could help me decide on school and/or a new career and I said could you help me break this attachment I have for you? And he looked at me and said... I see no reason to do that. I see your attachment as a positive thing and I would not want to break that.

Then we sort of focused on my upcoming surgery which is scaring the crap out of me. He knows that and he wanted to focus on it because it will be in 3 weeks. I think he was proud of me for setting a date and handling this okay. I told him that he helped me with this making me see that my fear of losing control can be fought by taking control of the scheduling and picking my doctor and hospital. And then I told him that I didn't even care anymore if I died in surgery. I was in such emotional pain. That made him a bit angry but i didn't care.

And he confessed that he spoke to another T (the one I suspected he consulted with) who is a woman who does EMDR and I think she has influenced his change of behavior towards me. She is the one he wants to shove me off onto and I won't see a female T... NO HOW NO WAY and this is also an issue between us. I told him if I should ever ever decide to leave him and see another T he will never know who it is or what we work on.

So I'm trying to absorb all of this. We are meeting again on Thursday and I will see him tomorrow at a camp parent meeting with other parents so we will not talk but I can at least see him and know he's there.

I promise to be back and write more when I have more time.

Thanks
TN

TN, I hope you are feeling at least a tiny bit of relief.
I like that you remembered this:

quote:

and I said could you help me break this attachment I have for you? And he looked at me and said... I see no reason to do that. I see your attachment as a positive thing and I would not want to break that.

That stands out for me.
This attachment is positive, healing thing and he doesn't want to take it away from you. I'm glad he is going to be there for you. I hope you are going to work this out. I imagine that it would also frighten me terribly, the idea of such a change. I think I understand how you must be afraid, that there might be a danger of loosing this relationship. But he is not going anywhere and you will still continue to work together for as long as you need it. I think it's great. I hope you will be feeling safe again.
Take care.

Hi, TN...well, I am relieved to hear, that you stand on a little bit more solid ground...phew. Yet, it is vclear you are still very much hurting over this. I must ask you, because it keeps standing out for me, that it really almost seems like he means to reccommend the trauma T *in addition* to the work you are doing , not *instead of.* Is that what he meant, I wonder. At any rate, it must be a relief, that he doesn't want to break your attachment, and that he sees it as a positive thing...
At least it is making a little bit more sense now. When you feel like you want to and are able, please keep us posted on your situation...we are thinking about you, sending good thoughts to you...I am so glad, it is clear he cares very much about you.

BB

I don't know if you can call it relief or being on solid ground again. I'm a bit more clear as to what he was saying and wanting. But it's nothing good and I'm still terrified and my heart hurts so much. I don't think he was suggesting doing the trauma stuff in addition to working with him... he was saying to go off and spend how ever many years I need to and work out the trauma and then I could come back and ... what? I have no idea... chit chat with him about school and my career. What kind of therapy is that? What kind would I be "allowed" to do with him? What would I even have left to say to him? And how hurt would I be that he didn't want to try to help me and wanted to push off the "hard" work on another T and leave me alone to do this work that terrifies me?

If I leave him it will be that I'm quitting therapy because the person I trusted most in the world and who I felt safest with in the world turned out to be the one who broke me into so many pieces that there is not another T on earth who could put me back together again...

TN

I understand better. I guess I was so glad to see that he didn't want to break the attachment, and that he kept repeating that you don't have to leave, that I forgot the rest of it...I am sorry. Of course you are feeling heartbroken at the suggestion, even, and I really feel for you. I do see something positive in this:

quote:

he told me over and over that he is not terminating me, that he is not asking me to leave

In spite of the big but, it is very good that he doesn't expect or is asking you to go.

I think it is also good this:

quote:

He said I never have to leave him and even if the time comes when he is no longer around I will always have him in "here" (pointing to his heart). And he said even if I decide to leave for a little while I am always welcome to come back to him

I like the focus on "you decide" and on if he is no longer around, because it indicates that he does not expect you to leave. I think he just feels that ethically he is bound to let you know of his limitations, perhaps.

I'm sorry I said solid ground, I can see that is not really where you are standing now. But I sincerely hope that you are heading that way, and it does seem like there is much good in what he is saying, that points to the very real possibility that he is willing to continue the healing journey with you, but with you fully aware of your options, as well. At least I hope, pray this is the case, for your sake.

(((TN)))

BB

BB, my kind feathered friend.. no need to apologize. Your words were helpful and meant a lot to me. I'm just in a really bad place and don't mean to appear churlish. Yes, there was some good in the session and he left the decision up to me but in a way where I sort of feel backed into a corner. He did discuss ethical concerns and I told him I'd sign a paper saying I was aware of his limitations but freely chose to stay. He said that is not necessary. I think the woman he consulted with had a really adverse effect on him and that's why he is acting so strangely all of a sudden. Maybe she shook his confidence.

I know he does not have trauma training but he does so many things so right just instinctively. The attunement can be very powerful between us and because I know he's so ethical I feel safe with him... or I did... that has now been shaken.

I need his help to get me through the surgery in a few weeks and then we can talk more about how therapy will proceed.

One question though... for those of you dealing withi past trauma, do you all have Ts who are trained in dealing with trauma?

Thanks,
TN

TN, it's really good to see you here and posting. Like the others I feel some relief at reading the developing situation - partly just to know you are here and physically ok so far, that you still have access to him, that he is taking the time and talking it through with you and that he appears to be willing to stand by you and respect your decisions about this. Some of the worst possibilities have not yet eventuated and are looking somewhat less likely - hence the relief.

Having said that I know that the pain hasn't gone away for you - your world is STILL being absolutely rocked, and you are in the thick of great uncertainty and shock at the uncertainty, at a time when you actually deeply need the security you had come to trust. I know you are in acute pain, and I really hope that will be relieved soon.

I thought about your question, and I don't think I'm a good person to answer it. But I have to say thinking about it actually made me really mad on your behalf. WTF kind of therapist doesn't deal with trauma? But maybe my reaction here is just about the fuzzy definitions of this term. Some traumas and trauma situations are severe, complicated and/or just particular in kind - and they probably are better served by certain kinds of therapy work and/or training and/or contact conditions. I am NOT saying therefore you DO need a different T - the powerful attunement between you and the trust you've already established counterbalances that - but I can see how these things are factors.

The surgery must be extremely scary for you given the way you feel about medical stuff. I'm sorry this is adding to your load. I'm glad he is there for you to help you get through this.

J

Hey there TN well I’m glad on one level that you have been able to have this out with him and that he’s explained some things that maybe have given you a bit of perspective on what’s going on with him.

My first reaction though to when you mentioned he’d spoken to this EMDR woman was ‘hm isn’t that breach of confidentiality?’ Unless she’s his supervisor? I don’t understand why he would talk to someone else about you outside of the proper channels, even if he were struggling with feeling that he couldn’t help you heal in the way he perceives you needing to. I’d hate to think he’d been talking about your therapy ‘in passing’ to a fellow T and that she put her spoke in - which is what it sounds like has happened.

I’m also a bit gobsmacked by his listing the three choices - if he’s so adamant that he can’t help you in the way he thinks you need, giving two opposing choices (number 1 and 3) comes across as incredibly confusing, at the least. I also don’t understand how he can say that he would in no way help you break the attachment to him as that is a positive thing, yet at the same time is suggesting you go see someone else - sorry none of that makes sense to me (and I guess it doesn’t to you either!)

Actually it sounds as if he’s NOT clear or certain about what he’s suggesting and you may be right, this other woman has put a flea in his ear and he’s been put in the position of considering the ethics of continuing to help you when he is apparently not trained in trauma work.

And saying that if you do leave for a little while you’re always welcome to come back - well why do you have to leave in the first place then? I’m sorry it’s not really clear what he wants you to do - maybe all of this is really just about his feeling obligated to present you with the ethical options and that he doesn’t at all want you to go off and work with someone else, just that he is duty bound to give you that opportunity?

Whatever is going on with him, it sucks bigtime that you are being made to feel this way. And it must be really hard to have to need his help and support (for the upcoming surgery) while all this is unresolved. (((( TN ))))

LL

Thanks Jones and LL... I'm running to work now but wanted to thank you both and to clarify for LL... A while back when we were both struggling with his trauma inexperience he asked me if he could consult with someone about this issue to help me and I said he had my permission if he didn't use my name and if it was with someone that I didn't know or that knew me. I kinda guessed who it was and it's the same woman he wanted me to do EMDR with awhile back. I didn't see how that would work as you really need a secure and trusting relationship before doing EMDR work I know, and I didn't see that happening with this woman and bouncing between the two Ts would be ..first way out of my financial means and also impossible because I don't want a female T and the thought of revealing my trauma to this woman make me actually physically ill.

He wants to support me in the surgery and I think I do need him for that. He is good in that area... getting me past challenges. He is also really good with me when I have broached trauma issues and I think this is all in his head... more of a crisis of confidence on his part as he has been fine except for forgetting to reply to emails and perhaps backing off once in awhile when I move too close to him.

In so many ways he has been wonderfully healing. A real ressource and comfort for me.

I'll be back tonight to talk more if I can... it gets painful and also... I need to leave for work and cannot post during the day although I can read here.

TN

TN,

I'm sorry that you are still hurting so much, but very glad that you are still posting and reaching out here.

It sounds like he is really struggling with his own feelings of inadequacy and really wants to help you, but doesn't know the best way how to do that. Do you think he would be open to perhaps reading some different books or attending some workshops? I can feel from your post that he really doesn't seem to want you to go and very much values your relationship. I think he is just struggling with how to best help you.

Please keep us posted. I hope that the upcoming surgery goes well and the stress surrounding that is as well managed as it can be. ((((TN))))

quote:

What rules did he change? Does it concern more than accepting emails? And how did he convey to you repeatedly that he is not a trauma therapist? If you don't want to address the detail, I totally understand...

UV thank you for your thoughtful post and the questions. I answered many of them on your other thread about trauma Ts. As for changing the rules... I am still not sure what he is changing or wants to change. He has told me that it upsets him when he fails or disappoints me by not answering my emails and then he sees that I go into a spin .. down into my black hole. The thing is ... I don't go there as often or as intensely any longer... since therapy with him. But when he does not respond to me then I do call him on it and then he feels badly and it shakes his confidence because he feels sort of out of his depth with trauma work. He just tells me that this is not his field of expertise and that he feels that I already know more than he does. We have tried to talk about out of session contact on other occassions but never reached a definitive policy on it. And there are times when he initiates contact with me.. he does check in when he knows I'm struggling and he sometimes sends me inspirational quotes. This has helped me immensely. I'm not even sure he can comprehend how powerful these emails have been for me and how healing.

STRM...I have tried in a very low-key way to share my resources with him about attachment and trauma. David Wallin did a seminar nearby us last year and I so encouraged him to go but he said he was busy. Okay, fair enough. So I gave him the book. He still has it and I know he has not read it. I once gave him In Session to understand transference and he had it for almost a year when I asked for it back. He read only a few pages. I then gave him my 12 hour CD set from John Briere which I highly recommend, although it's pricey... who is a noted trauma researcher and he still has that. I know he has listened to some of it because it was during this time that our therapy took off. Just before this disruption we had a run of a few months where things were absolutely wonderful... we were so attuned and connected and things were moving along at a wonderful pace. Then we seem to slam into something that throws us off the track. I seem to get back on quicker than he can. Anyway, it's very tricky to share this stuff with him because I tread a fine line with not wanting him to feel inferior to me or be insulting to him. But the way I see it is that no one can possibly know everything and there is so much that he is very good at. I constantly learn stuff from him and soak up everything that he offers. I'm working on my BS in Psychology and it would be such a dream to intern with him because he has such a way of conveying knowledge and watching him work with kids is like watching a great artist at work. He is a really gifted T but just cannot see it.

TN

I just want to say that I was just overwhelmed with all the support, love and hugs I received on this thread. I was in a really bad place and although things have sort of calmed down for now I'm still a bit skittish as to what's going to happen next.

Jones... all of your posts were so reassuring and calming. You could see things that I could not as I was so activated my brain was not functioning well. Thank you for encouraging me to keep reaching out for support. What you, and the others saw, was that my T does really care about me and I can just entertain that thought right now... and I think I could see yesterday how hard this is for him too. He thinks I should leave and that's it's ethical for him to encourage this BUT, I think part of him wants me to stay and I think he's as conflicted as I am. And yes, we do need to slow down and find that quiet spot where we can come together and talk calmly. It was a bit more calm yesterday and I told him I'm not leaving and he told me he's not asking me to leave...so that's pretty simple. Except I feel a bit uncomfortable staying and perhaps making him suffer. And yes I know it's not about his feelings and I do tell him that. I asked him... hey do I get a vote on this. It's MY therapy!

When I was at the worst and in the depths of hell on Friday ... he called me to check on me. He somehow knew or was led to do that. I was not feeling so safe at that moment. He was not in the office that day and came in specifically to see me and he gave me extra time as well. When I was leaving he gave me a small (food) gift for my birthday and he hugged me. And I know this is not the behavior of someone who just wants to be rid of me.

JaneDoe thank you for sharing your experiences and for the support. You have grown and bloomed so much in the last few months.

SG... I know you know this pain and I appreciate you responding to a thread that has to be triggering for you and also because I know you are struggling yourself right now with marital issues. Your support means a lot. And yes, it was too much too fast and that was traumatizing in itself for me. We both needed to take a step back and think things through more logically and less emotionally.

Monte, your advice about letting the dust settle was right on. That's what i'm trying to do. I cannot help but think that his consultation perhaps made him feel that this was suddenly a real ethical issue and he needed to be clear with me ... but I am not your usual patient in that I know so much about psychotherapy and I have a lot of insight. I feel that I am educated enough to make my own decisions. And yes, I think things are starting to change shape.

DF.. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. I thank you for being there and responding.

Amazon...I know how attached you are to your T and how triggering this topic can be. Thanks for encouraging me to hold on.

Starfish... things are good again with my son. He is an amazing child and my T always reminds me what a good mother I am and gives me a ton of credit for my son's progress. He tells me that taking care of myself is taking care of my son too. He's a smart T. And yes, one hour at a time, one foot in front of the other.

LL... I think you hit on something when you said my Ts' professional pride is kicking in. I know he has pride and I so try not to injure it and to nurture it instead. He is not always adept at handling these situations from lack of experience and not mean-spiritedness. He is basically a good man or I would have run a long time ago. I think we have both backed down a bit and are taking things more slowly and spending the time to look carefully at what is needed here. Perhaps we both over reacted. I almost hesitate to say things could possibly be okay because he may have other ideas but he did say he's not asking me to leave. So I have to hold onto that while we work things out.

FOT, thanks for your advice and sharing your own story with us here. I know what you have been through and I appreciate your willingness to visit the topic again. I know how painful it was for you. Thank you.

Mad Hatter... thanks for the hugs. My son is the most important person in my life and yes, I have to live for him. To see him grow up and become a wonderful man. He is a great kid.

AG...you are the best. You always "get it". I'm so glad you are here.

Russ, thanks for your support and that beautiful poem. It evokes such pictures in my mind.

seablue... thank you for the hugs and reminding me to take things gently. I know you are having your own struggles so thanks for your generous thoughts.

STRM, that you would find time to post to me while going through your own hellish time means so much to me. Thanks for all your wise words.

UV.. thank you for all those lovely things you said about me. I'm blushing. I know this topic is anxiety producing and a nightmare for so many of us... me included... and I'm honored that so many of you still took the time to post to me. I have thought about anxiety drugs but I think first I want to try some herbal supplements that seem to calm anxiety. If this does not work then perhaps a prescription for xanax or similar. While things don't feel settled in any way, it seems more hopeful. Less dire. Perhaps he will mellow out again. I don't know. But I somehow feel more determined after this hellish experience. It's still a newish feeling... like I do want to proceed with him and perhaps he will just need to buckle his seatbelt and deal with the trauma stuff.

Echo, thank for your advice. I don't have a friend nearby but I do have one that i can talk to on the phone who understand and gets this stuff. She has been invaluable in helping me sort through this mess and also in keeping me safe and in one piece.

jill... I don't know if we spoke. You came on board while I was not posting much due to what's been happening in therapy. Thank you so much for the offer of contact. I will keep that in mind and I do really appreciate your offer of friendship. That was sweet of you.

BB or BeeBee... I responded to you further up on this thread but I wanted to say that you are such a sweet, kind, thoughtful person always ready to help and support. I really appreciate it.

That's about it... didn't mean to turn this into a novel. I'm still scared that things will careen out of control again and a bit skittish about trust at this point. But I have decided that he does care about me and I decided to stay and try to work some things through. Only time will tell if this is the right decision.

TN

TN thanks for replying - that’s so thoughtful of you especially when you’re still all over the place with what’s happening with your T.

Just want to echo what STRM said in her post - please let us know how things go for you?

Sending you lots of supporting thoughts TN

LL

Thanks LL for the supporting thoughts.

I'm seeing my T again tomorrow and I'm a bit nervous. I know that I feel things have calmed down a bit since our last session but I'm afraid I'll go in tomorrow and realize I was delusional to think all of this... including that it would be possible to stay.

TN

TN,
Will be thinking of you tomorrow.

so sorry to hear you are nervous. It's totally understandable. You are not delusional - this is really tough hard stuff to walk through and have shaken up. It sounds like it has gotten better and I hope it keeps getting better!

TN- will be thinking of you and keeping everything crossed (fingers and toes) that it becomes clearer and that your T will read those books you gave him...

((((TN))))

BB

PS- you didn't seem in the least churlish...I was very glad that you were posting and saying everything that was on your mind and hope you will continue to do that...as you want to, of course...thanks for the kind thoughts.