Hi Erica.. thanks for sharing this. I only have a minute but wanted to respond (have to pick up my son). Please don't get anxious and delete it.

What you wrote about is ver common I'm sure and I struggle with it too and have thrown all those comments at my T when he says he cares about me (he's paid to, it's his job, he says that to everyone, this is fake, etc). He has a good answer for each one but I still cannot take in the caring on that deep primal level and I still get really scared at the drop of a hat that he will disappear or leave or something bad will happen if I accept his care. We were just talking about this topic this week (well I guess we talk about it a lot.)

I think it was great and brave of you to bring this up with your T.

I will be back later with more comments. What article did AH link to?

Hang in there
TN

thanks TN! The article is by Pete Walker and the link is: http://www.pete-walker.com/pdf...glectComplexPTSD.pdf

This was linked before by someone and I found it really helpful then and more recently. I finally got up the courage to bring it up to my T this week.

Thanks so much for responding and thanks for saying it was brave of me...I don't always feel very brave! I'm definitely interested in reading your take on this issue.

I reminds me of the time I made my T a big list of all the reasons she couldn't actually care about me. As it turns out, the contextual things (you are paid to care) are just an excuse. In reality we are very scared of them caring. For me it was a fear of allowing myself to hope, fear of being vulnerable.

((ERICA)) Its certainly rough and very emotional going through what you are experiencing. I have many of the same thoughts as you, so I really get what you're feeling and why you're feeling it. I told my T that he is paid to care, and to show empathy so that we trust them, and open up to them. T said that he believes most clients think that way. He also keeps telling me he really does care about me, and I also get very anxious and don't like it when he says that. He recently said that he is aware of the fact that I don't like it when he says "he cares". When your T tells you she cares and you feel anxious, I want to think its because of your being neglected, and then trust is a tough switch to turn on and off when abuse is in your history. When you haven't experienced a lot of trust, its really difficult to go into a relationship with a T, and just fall into a mode of giving up your protective security and your survival instincts and say: ok, I will just trust you T. It just doesn't happen that way. We just have to find a way to believe and know that we are worthwhile enough, that our T's do really care, and maybe that's why we have to keep Therapy close to us, and not give up. You are deserving of being cared about.

quote:

I wish I could take it in, her caring. Maybe I would be able to believe that I do matter if I could take her caring in. I just don’t know how to do that. It’s always going to come down to the fact that she’s a therapist, a professional who must care about who she works with to be effective. It’s nothing about me as an individual that is deserving. I guess I just feel a little stuck. Where to go, how to take in something that I doubt is unique to me (it isn’t, I know). I know I’m not alone in struggling with this….thank you for listening and giving me a space to write this all out.

It IS about you as an individual that is deserving. Your T chooses to work with you, she doesn't have to. And in doing so she is giving you genuine warmth and caring and compassion.
uh, I don't know quote how to say this but I'll give it a shot...like with my kids - I love and care about them all. That's unwavering and unchanging and unconditional. So while it's not unique per se, it IS unique and still special and always.there. I can love and care still individually; special yet it's shared.
gah. I hope a made a bit of sense...

I know my t cares about me. I just don't like it. Makes me feel weak and vulnerable.

erica, good for you for going ahead and bringing this up to your T. I find this stuff so hard to talk about. I think you are doing a great job of bringing up these really hard topics with your T.

Do you find it hard to take in care from other people besides your T? I know that I do. I find it very uncomfortable. I don't trust it I guess, so does that mean I don't trust my T. I don't think I trust anybody when it comes to this kind of stuff. I think I have decided I am pretty hopeless regarding this.

I think the fact that you even brought this up with your T, bodes well for you erica. You can't conquer it, if you don't talk about it. Hell, I'm even too scared to talk about it. Take in her care erica, you certainly deserve it.

quote:

Her knowing that I trust her made me so anxious. I don’t know why, as I have told her before that I think I do trust her. Something about her saying it, knowing it, made me so anxious and uncomfortable.

Putting this out there verbally probably makes you anxious because it exposes a vulnerability. You are trusting your T and this makes you anxious because you fear her hurting you now that she knows you trust her. It also makes it very real because you said it out loud and you both heard it. Hard to take is back now. But, Erica, your T already knew you trusted her so things are really the same. And because you have such a good track record with her I doubt very much she would use your trust to harm you in any way.

I have read that Pete Walker article and others by him. I like the way he writes. I have also shared them with my T. I had linked to him a long time ago. Others here are familiar with him too. He writes in a way that is easy to understand.

I know you struggle with the "emotional neglect" concept and I'm glad you read Walker and it helped you to see the harm that it can cause to a child, even inadvertently. I wanted to suggest a book I'm reading now called "The Emotionally Absent Mother" by Jasmin Cori. It may resonate with you. It's kind of a self help book, which I usually avoid, but it validates how harmful neglect and non attention to a child can be and the later ramifications of growing up like that. You can read some of it on Amazon.

As for my T and care... well he tells me that while anyone can pay him I am the one who has this unique relationship with him and NO ONE can replace that. He also tells me there is attachment on both sides of the relationship. That if he hurt me, he would also be hurting himself. He also explains that he did not HAVE to accept me as a patient. I was badly traumatized when I started with him and he knew it was going to be a long hard road and that he was making a long commitment to me and the work in the beginning was going to be pretty ugly. So I need to rest assured that he chose to work with me and that was because he respected my courage from the very beginning and he knew I was smart and was basically healthy enough to handle the recovery. He told me that as he got to know me he began to like and enjoy me and then attach to me. I know it's true that he did not have to take me on, he has a full schedule and basically takes only referrals. He can be so hard to argue with. So I really have no choice but to accept that he likes and cares for me. Then I look at my experience with him. He sees me 2x a week, has been open to sitting on the floor, reading to me, coming to my memorial in the park for C, gave me his magic dragon, and seems always happy to see me, even when I give him a hard time LOL.

I think it's important to look at the experience you have with your T to see if her words "I care" are backed up by her actions. Then you have to decide if her care is real or not. My T tells me that if you can FEEL the care, then it's real. You cannot imagine stuff like that.

I hope this is helpful in some way. I think it would be a good idea to continue talking to her about the relationship. You are doing really good work.

Hugs
TN

Thank you all for your responses!

BLT – yes, I think you’re right that there is a fear underlying this need to deny the care. For me, I think I fear being too much. Like, if I let in her care, then I’ll keep wanting more and I’ll become so overwhelming. I feel like my neediness is a bottomless pit and can never be satiated. Logically, I know that’s not true but it’s my irrational (transferential) fear nonetheless. Sounds like you’ve overcome your fear and allowed your T to care. Awesome work, I’m sure it feels good!

Eme – thank you so much for what you wrote! It made me think. Trust is definitely an issue with me. I was fortunate enough not to experience any abuse but I’m beginning to believe that maybe I was unintentionally neglected (emotionally, not physically). And I can see the effects of it, trust being one of them. You are so right when you say it’s so difficult to just trust someone when we haven’t had much experience trusting safe and trustworthy people. It’s like giving away some control and power…when that other knows you trust in them. And if you haven’t experienced anything good out of that trust, then it makes perfect sense that you’d be scared of any kind of trust. Yeah, I can definitely see that. Thanks!

Lucy – thank you for reminding me that my T chooses to work with me. You definitely made sense about the love you have for your children…which is both universal in your family (you love all your kids) and also unique and individual to each different child. That is nice to think of a T like that….that they unconditionally regard all of their clients but each relationship is very unique and different.

Becca – thanks Becca! This stuff is SO hard but it’s been worth it. It’s taken me many weeks and months to be able to say this stuff. I’ve never been this vulnerable with anyone. I do have a hard time taking in care from others. I am lucky that I have a few close friends that I can take in this care, but my relationships with guys have been a whole other story. I can’t take in care, I can’t make myself vulnerable, I don’t want to be overly needy so I just shut off my needs (more than a few guys have thought I was aloof, not interested when it is always the opposite). I have no balance in these relationships and then they end after a few months and I get mad at myself. I feel like I need to keep going to therapy even though I am dying of shame every week because I want a good, solid relationship with someone someday….and it’s not going to happen unless I can learn to be vulnerable with my T first (at least I think). This stuff is hard but you can do it Becca! I have faith that you can take little risks, every session. That’s what I’ve been doing…little baby steps every session until I build up enough trust and can (hopefully, ideally) let my T’s care in.

TN – Thank you for your recommendation! I will definitely be checking that out. It’s taken me awhile to be able to digest the fact that my mother was emotionally absent. She was my everything for several years until my brother got sick. Then she became unavailable and I didn’t want to be too much for her. I’m slowly coming to terms with the fact that she failed me. She should’ve known that I needed her or someone to help me process what was happening. Thanks for being so validating, TN. As for feeling, knowing my T cares by her actions….I think our Ts sound similar, in some ways. My T also has been so willing to do anything to help me. Your T sounds like he’s been open to doing things to support you. That must have been a lovely session when he has read to you (I remember reading about one of those sessions awhile ago). I’m sorry you’re struggling with your relationship right now. You have made me think though about her actions, not just her words. And they 100% match up to her words. Always, not just sometimes. I know I’m so lucky.

Exploring – I think you wrote a response. I’m sorry I didn’t respond to it! You asked about my feelings about her directing the conversation back to her. I think I wasn’t annoyed but felt that she was trying to get me to see it was okay for me to be hurt or disappointed by her. She kept emphasizing “by her” and I didn’t really say yes or no but I do feel it was good of her to put herself out there and not be defensive at all. It just adds to my trust with her.


Sorry this was so long! Thank you all so much for helping me sort this out and validating me.

Thank you ((Pengs)). The first time my T said she cares, I couldn't even look at her and it definitely stirred up lots of anxiety/panic/sadness. I think this session was almost flooding/exposure therapy haha! Saying it so many times made me feel less anxious in the end. So, I suppose that is a good thing. I don't know exactly why she kept repeating it, over and over, but I was more comfortable with her saying that by the end I guess. She's said it before though in previous sessions throughout the years...so this wasn't the first. I feel like she's going to get real sick of reassuring me that she cares!

I hope that you will be able to get there eventually. To be able to hear comforting words and not have to physically or psychologically leave the room. You just seem so sweet and funny (at least in your writing) that I find it hard to believe that your T doesn't care about you.

I'm another one for whom the 'letting in the care' narrative really resonates. I think the process I have been going through with my T closely resembles yours actually.

For me, the only way it has been manageable is inch by inch.

quote:

Like, if I let in her care, then I’ll keep wanting more and I’ll become so overwhelming. I feel like my neediness is a bottomless pit and can never be satiated. Logically, I know that’s not true but it’s my irrational (transferential) fear nonetheless

1000 times this. In fact, I'm kind of squirming in my chair typing this because of what gets evoked in me when I think about how my own irrational fear manifests itself. Sometimes consciously and other times unconsciously my mum managed to convey to me that what should be normal sad, angry or upset feelings were not welcome or appreciated and I quickly learned to mask them. As I result I have a very undeveloped sense of what is appropriate and okay to others (as well as an enormous fear of being seen as overly 'needy' guzzling down more than my fair share of care). Bleh. Because of this I 'police' myself very carefully, which means more often than not I make myself responsible for other people's boundaries, rather than letting them decide for themselves what they can and cannot give. It means that in Mallard skewed-logic land I'm safe because I rarely get knocked back or told no. But that's because in the real, rational world, I'm way too self-reliant and my default is to believe that I must manage everything by myself.

I've still not really let the care in, but I'm getting there very slowly!

Aggghh! care. so difficult.

This is a really good thread though - you guys are great and so honest and open.

My mother made sure I wasn't allowed any sad, angry or upset feelings either Mallard (only gratitude was allowed and I always failed to provide the required quantity). So, like you I police myself, beat myself up when I feel needy (let alone let it show), even on a forum I'm sure I'm not welcome.

I have no sense what-so-ever that my current T cares about me. I'm just the 10 o clock appointment. However awful things get between sessions I have no permission to contact her - and actually she has never made sure I have other support. I am to cope on my own.

secretly I really do need care - dont tell anyone though will you? (lol)

SB

This has been an ongoing theme in my therapy for some time. I am just getting to the point where I can recognize some of my distorted thought patterns that lead me to negate or not take in the care that my T or my DH offer to me. T asked me to read a book that talked a lot about this. Receiving Love by Harville Hendrix and Helen Hunt. These authors have written several books that have to do with Imago relationship therapy. My T is trained in that therapy and is a big supporter of their theorys. I have to say the book was very well written and has a lot of good information in it. I think at the moment I'm a little too sick with the ED to fully understand and comprehend all of what it means.

I know a few weeks ago when DH came to therapy with me he was being to loving and concerned for me. T stopped us in mid conversation and asked me to just focus on accepting the care and love he was offering. It was good that she did that because in my head I was dissociating and coming up with reasons why what he was saying or offering wasn't real. Because it didn't fit with my internal story that I'm not worth care, that I'm not thin enough to be loved. DH has never said those things - those voices are from my family of origin - in fact in that session he made a point of telling me that he loved me - no matter what I weighed. That is was me he loved. It was a powerful session. If T hadn't stopped me and focused me on what was happening I would have missed it.

I recommend the book. Perhaps you will be at a place in your journey where you are able to really understand at a core level how to move past this.

Jillann

((Mallard)) I'm so sorry you can relate to this. It's so painful. I really relate to your words too. I like the image of guzzling down care, which is how I feel in therapy sometimes. Like I'm being manipulative and "guzzling" too much care from my T...leaving her empty or something. But it does sound like your T has been there for you too...and I'm glad you feel like you're getting there, even if it is very slow going!

((S-B)) Your secret is safe with me Maybe you'll get there one day, and you'll be able to express all of what you wrote here. And you are definitely welcome on this forum! If I am, anyone is

((Jillann) Thanks for the book recommendation, I will definitely look into it! I'm so glad it sounds like your couple session went well and your T was so attuned to your needs. It sounds like you are making progress, inch by inch too. Stopping the tapes of our childhood is such hard work. But you are doing amazingly just by recognizing that those thoughts are old thoughts, ones planted when you were a child. They are not coming from your current situation. I'm glad your husband has been able to support you in this process.