Hi puppet,
I also find it very hard to talk in therapy. It's like I freeze up. I think it has something to do with the fight, flight or freeze resonse fromnour reptile brain! I will rehearse what I want to say or even right it down, and when I get there, I just can't do it. Oh, I'm good at the small talk and all. I do get frustrated because I feel like she should be guiding more with questions or such. Often, there's that awkward silence that seems to go on forever. Your comment about it taking her a year to figure out you needed help and offer it struck me. I feel the same way. How can she expect me to ask for help when I've never learned how to ask and don't know what kind of help I need?!

So, I don't have words of wisdom for you, but know you're not alone

Raven

Hi Puppet -
I feel compelled to reply to your post as it is so incredibly related to my situation as well. I have been with my T for nearly 2 years and I have continuously struggled with finding my voice and ability to talk in session. I think my struggle is rooted in my lack of self-confidence, fear of saying something ‘wrong’, and fear of being judged. Despite reassurance that I could never say anything ‘wrong’, I can not seem to take that in. I am just flat out scared. Somehow it feels that by saying out loud and actually verbalizing what is running through my head, it then becomes real. If I keep it to myself, it feels distant, abstract, not real. I think it is a combination of not being able to speak (not being able to find the words) and the fear. Like your T, mine is great about asking questions to keep things moving along. And like yours, my T asks if there is anything T can do to help me feel more comfortable. I do not have an answer for that. I am not sure what will make me feel more comfortable and more able to open up other than time. But it’s been 2 yrs. How much more time do I need? It makes me feel hopeless, like progress and healing are impossible. Your list of possible reasons for your difficulty talking makes sense to me. I relate to the trust, self-sabotage, the different voices in your head, anger…. I get it all. I am sorry I can not help and offer any insight. But I just wanted you to know that you are most definitely not alone in the struggle. I wish I had some suggestions or ways I have been helped, but I am still lost and trying to figure it out myself. - FD

hi puppet! nice to see you

i used to have same problem with old t, but oddly it is not a problem with new t. i think it has something to do with boundaries. i don't really care what new t thinks of me, so i am totally free to just talk, since it is so very clear that he and only ever will remain, a t. i think with old t i had so much confusion about the relationship. always hoping that I was special to him. now I know I'm not nor ever will be no matter what special to new t, so I can talk cause I know I'm just another client, and that doesn't really bother me much. he's just a nice guy, a support in my life, so for me that worked. do you have a strong transference with your T? (forgve me I can't remember) if so, it seems likely that is what causes the problem. a good place to start is the list you've made, very insightful. bring the list to her, and take it from there, I would say. but it's probably layers of things causing it. must be so frustrating! I feel for you. I hope it will work out soon. hugs,
beebs

My experience is very similar to what beebs is describing. I had soooo much transference with old T that I was constantly thinking she was judging me or secretly hated me or that maybe she really did like or even love me and the net effect was that I was always obsessing over what she would think of me for saying this or that.

With my new T there's a tiny bit of that but it's so much less. It's as though there's an understanding that what she thinks about me isn't really that relevant anyway. She may like me or even be fond of me but nobody is ever going to make a big deal out of it. I find that comforting somehow, paradoxically.

((raven)) its nice to hear that someone understands but it sucks doesn't it? i'm sorry you struggle with this too have you spoken to her much about it? i also wonder how can they stand that awkward silence!? i actually think it shows great self control and maybe they do stand it because they think its best for us to try to learn how to reach out?!... i hope it gets easier for you too!

((flamingo)) its nice to meet you and I'm sorry you struggle with this too it does make me feel a bit less abnormal, so thank you for posting! i also get what you say about it becoming 'real' once you say it and then you have to deal with it. i'm also shit-scared - forgot to add that to my list! how does she reassure you? does she say a lot of encouraging things? my T doesn't, she's quite non-directive and doesn't offer much encouragement unless prompted by me. i guess the best way is to keep talking about it - when we 'can' talk...

((beebs)) so nice to see you!! it's very interesting what you say - and yes, i do have a lot of transference for her and it probably makes it harder! but i thought it was supposed to be a good thing?! i don't think its the boundaries, she has really good boundaries, she is really consistent and strong, but not very open and self-revealing and negative transference can be quite intense sometimes. i am glad that you feel more free to talk as that's what its supposed to be about isn't it?! but i do hope that you will feel 'special' to him too, you deserve it - and isn't therapy supposed to be about that too?! thanks for your feathery hugs! x

hi ((BLT))! its also interesting that you have the same take on it and feel much more comfortable with less transference.

quote:

"It's as though there's an understanding that what she thinks about me isn't really that relevant anyway."

i do find that a little bit sad tho and i hope that both you and beebs will in time feel that you may matter to your T's!





more factors added to my list:
8. fear (i don't know what i'm scared of, is it that I reach out and she might reject me?!)
9. also, i seem to have a reset button. after a week i go back to my default position, which is "who the hell are you and what do you want from me?!", all the positive feelings and memories are forgotten and I seem to need a kind reminder every time.
10. intense tranference doesn't help!


puppet

((((Puppet)))) thinking of you and so understanding your situation -i have no time tonight but will try to talk with you soon!! take care and try be gentle with yourself. big

I'm having such a hard time with exactly the same problem lately, I totally relate puppet!

It used to be fine until our previous issue was deal with, and now we ended up with "nothing to talk about", which is downright agonizing. I DETEST when he goes all silent.

Could you be avoiding talking about "more dangerous" issues? For me that's where the silence is coming from, but I honestly don't know how to word them without feeling like a complete idiot in front of him.

I also resent him for not reaching out more, for not making the right questions, for not making me feel completely accepted and safe, for intimidating me with his life experience and busy schedule, which adds to the problem, but I can't complain to him about these things, I just don't feel like I have the right.

have you tried to write these thoughts in a paper and hand it to her next time?

Hi Puppet,

I totally get the issue. I think I posted elsewhere about this, but I always write out stuff that I want to say, usual stuff and difficult stuff, on a piece of paper that I hand to T as I walk in the door. It felt awful at first but has got easier with time.

I write stuff in my journal as I think of it and then write it up before my session and have a rule with myself not to rip it up. Once I've written it I make sure I hand it to her however awkward it feeels. This help put out in the open the hardest stuff and helps me when I have both the 'brain emptying' and the loss of courage that seemed to happen in sessions as soon as I sit down

Just something that helps a bit for me, but I know doing anything is sometimes hard

starfishy

Hi Puppet –
My T reassures me but repeatedly reminding me that I could never say anything wrong, that the office is a safe place to share anything and everything, that it is my time to say whatever I want. I will not be rejected. And intellectually I totally get that and I do believe this to be true. But emotionally, I simply can not seem to accept it. My T has given me no reason not to fully trust the process. T has been completely accepting and open while maintaining firm boundaries which I appreciate and need. But the negative voice in my head is so powerful that it feels like I am not allowed to trust, to speak, to share, to heal. This is my issue, not anything to have to do with T. T is very encouraging and supportive. She frequently asks what she can do to help me feel more comfortable. She pushes me, tried to get me to open up, by asking questions. Yet is respectful when I say I can not go there. But like you said, I guess we have to keep talking what little we can and with time hope to find our voices. In the beginning I was a silent client. Now I can at least talk about surface issues without too much fear. As Eliana suggested, I struggle with the ‘more dangerous’ issues - those are pretty much off limits. Sometimes we’ll bump up against one, but that shuts me down pretty quickly. It is too scary and unsafe. I have found an outlet in writing and can share some thing that way. I don’t write for every session, but when I do, it’s proven to be a useful tool. But much like talking, it can make things more ‘real’. And when it’s on paper you can’t go back and change the story or deny that you said something – because it’s right there in written word. I trust T and the process; it is more about defeating the angry monster in my head. But little by little, I am getting there. And I believe you will too. Just keep working at it. Best to you.

Hi Puppet,

You know, you'd think it would be sad to realize it doesn't matter that much what she thinks about me, but actually it's not. It's not that our relationship doesn't matter or I don't matter to her. It's just that what she thinks about me at any given moment is just her thought at that moment, nothing more.

In the beginning when I was processing leaving ex-T, we had a few conversations about this, because I told her how I kept thinking exT secretly hated me. And she said something like, "In real relationships, sometimes we're going to be annoyed at the other person or not like them for a little while and it's all part of the process. Sometimes I annoy my clients and sometimes they annoy me, but we manage to work it out." It was a little bit hard to swallow at first but after a while it started to seem realistic and OK. If she gets annoyed at me at some point (although she never has) or if she judges me to herself about something (although I doubt she does), that's really just her own stuff coming up at that moment. It doesn't mean she doesn't respect or care about me, and it doesn't mean our relationship isn't secure.

I hope that helps explain it more.

I was going to reply to clarify, puppett, but BLT basically said everything I was going to say! the only thing that really concerns me about my current situation with "cowboy T" is that I neither know, or particularly care what he thinks of me. it's as if I have lost the ability to let another person affect me. but other than that, it is a very helpful way to work, since it makes doing therapy actually possible.I hope you take your list to her. I garantee that it will help if you do. (and if not, well, you don't know where to find me!

Hi Puppet,

This is just my take on it.... I think the answer lies in a number of things, and a lot of us here have problems talking about our feelings and thoughts - as you can see, you are certainly not the only one who has problems trying to talk in therapy.

The problem with talking in therapy is that we have to let down our defences and expose our weaknesses, vulnerabilities, desires, etc., and allow the therapist into our deepest and inner most thoughts. For myself anyway, it seems like having to let go of the only control I know. Most of us have been hurt deeply, and so to trust someone to that level is extremely daunting. To know whether or not we can truly trust them. If you look deep inside of yourself, I bet you want nothing more than to experience complete understanding and unconditional love from another person - I know I do. I bet you want to free yourself from your demons and just be accepted for who you really are. It would be fantastic to just wipe the slate clean. The thing is, we are all scared - every one of us. We are scared of being judged. We are scared of rejection. We are scared of ridicule. We are scared of loving and not being loved back. We are scared of not being understood. We are just plain and simply scared, and we have our reasons. Our reasons may vary slightly, but ultimately we are all scared, and so in my case, my body shuts tightly closed. I feel like a bottle of soda that wants to explode sometimes. I want to let it out, but I am just too scared. I try and talk, but it seems a breath of air is sometimes all I am about, and so for me I find it easier to write.

Basically in a nutshell I think talking will eventually become easier when you do truly trust....and then there is me, where my therapist left me, and so now I don't feel as if I can EVER trust anyone again - therapist or not.

Can I toss something into the mix? I think part of the problem is that we approach this backwards by trying to figure out how to feel safe so we can talk when in reality, we have to talk in spite of our fear to learn to feel safe. Feelings FOLLOW actions, not precede them. This is especially true when we are fighting deeply laid implicit relationship lessons about the danger of making ourselves heard, and vulnerable. The only thing that seems to change those kinds of implicit beliefs are doing the thing we fear and experiencing it turning out differently, until we have enough new experience to offset the experience that taught us to be scared of expressing ourselves in the first place.

I have a blog post in which I discuss this principle: Bass Ackwards

All that said, it's also important that we be allowed to chose when we speak so that we are in control of our own healing. My T once told me about a patient with whom he spent a year in silence until she started talking. When I asked him what they had learned, he said that he learned patience and how to be still and she learned she was mattered enough for someone to wait for her to speak. I thought that was tremendously powerful (although I have NO idea how he managed that. )

AG

Hi Puppet

I didnt speak for about two years, all I ever said in therapy was I got nothing to say. But my T sat with me all through the silence (I have to say very patiently) Even today and I have just stared my 6th year with my T, I still struggled to talk.

The last few sessions we have spoke about trust(or lack of it) and I told her the adult part of me knows I can trust her and she will not hurt me but the child part of me still struggles to believe it. The child part holds all the fear of being rejected, thinking T don't like me or wants to get rid of me. It took me so long to bring up the little girl part of me and I would not accept that she was me!!! when i spoke of her I would point to the other side of the room and tell T that the little girl sit there watching me,

Today however, I told T the little girl sits beside me, so she is getting closer. But as I was walking home from the session I was suddenly aware that I don't allow that little girl to have a voice!!! its me that silences her. So I guess I'm going to bring this up with T Tuesday

I don't know if any of this helps but i just wanted to let you know that you are not alone with this

((((Puppet)))))

Lucina

AG, I know in theory you are right, but for me anyway, putting it into practice is tremendously difficult, because in general, if I have burnt myself once in the fire, I try not to do it again.

I don't mean to be negative. I hope you understand.

Oh Lucina, I really feel for you. I am glad you are going to give the child in you a voice!

(((B2W))) I really do understand and if I came across with a "just do it already" attitude, please know that was not at all my intention. My T calls this the hellish bind of healing from trauma experienced at the hands of our caregivers. The very thingt we need to do to heal is the also the very thing that terrifies us, becuase we learned long and well that in order to survive, we must not open up or move close. We were not "burnt" as you put it just once, but many, many times over the course of years. Those lessons run deep.

What I said is a simple principle but is by no means an easy one. What I'm really trying to convey is that we can focus our energy on two areas: condemnation of our feelings and trying to will ourselves not to have our feelings.

There is a good reason that we are scared to talk. But we often spend so much time judging ourselves for it. "I know I can trust my T, what's wrong with me?" "why am I such a baby?" etc. Lucina (hi!) made what I think is an important, even vital, realization that she is the one not allowing the child to speak. But it's not because we're bad people, or trying to be difficult For so many of us, we needed to muzzle ourselves in order to survive. We have good reasons to be scared of speaking. So we need to have compassion on ourselves.

It's also about re-directing our energy away from an impossible goal:willing ourselves out of our fear, to a possible goal of speaking DESPITE our fear. It was a relief to me to realize that being scared was ok, that I could accept the fear, but move through it. My therapist always said that therapy is a place in which you are safe enough to feel scared. I hope that helps claify what I meant. I'm really glad that you said something.

This is incredibly difficult stuff, and please trust me, that I have spent a lot of time in sessions, literally just trying to control my breathing the fear was so bad, while my T waited for me. And I don't think I struggle with this on the level that some of the people here are speaking about. It's so hard that I think it's even more inportant to focus on what we can do, which is to speak anyway in spite of the fear instead of castigating ourselves for having the fear and making it our goal to not be scared. One of the (many!) paradoxes of therapy is that the quickest way to our goals, is often to let go of them. Because in the end, it becomes much less scary to speak.

AG

AG, it is OK. I do understand what you are talking about. I am just having a particularly bad day, and I can't even say what I really want to say. Anyway this post is not about me. You are right though - I know that, it is just difficult to put it into practice.

quote:

It's so hard that I think it's even more inportant to focus on what we can do, which is to speak anyway in spite of the fear instead of castigating ourselves for having the fear and making it our goal to not be scared.

This totally rings true to me, and these are probably wise words for me to take in. Puppet, I so totally relate to absolutely everything you've said; all your bullet points apply to me as well. At this point, I've often brought up how frustrated I am with the lack of safety, which I think irritates my therapist. This frustrates/scares me even more, and round and round we go.

Sometimes I push past the fear-- when I am talking freely I think she's more comfortable, and we can get to my 'stuff'-- but then I am annoyed that this huge effort of pushing past the fear isn't recognized somehow. If it's going too smoothly, then there is fear of a lack of fear. T doesn't really ask many questions or do much talking at all, actually. I have also come to realize that I have pretty intense transference.

All that to say-- puppet dear you have my sympathies! I don't know what the solution is. I am totally moved by the story AG told of BN sitting in silence with one of his clients. I think that's a good reminder that there are no right or wrong answers, so take it at your own pace, and see what happens



effed

wow, thank you everyone for your replies! i've had a really exhausting week and need a bit of time to recover now, but will come back shortly as i want to have time to take it in and reply properly.



puppet

i feel bad for not being able to reply sooner but i've had a really overwhelming last few days where i could hardly get out of bed... for other reasons - lots going on right now. i had so much to say and i really appreciate everyone's replies so i hope to come back tomorrow and do that.
thanks again and ((hugs))

puppet

wanted to thank everyone again - it has been such great help, everyone's insights and experiences, even to know i am not alone in this... thank you!

as a result - i had a great session yesterday, where i actually talked for... wait for this... ALMOST the whole session! she helped as well, as she prompted me more then usual.

hugs to everyone and i'm really sorry i wasn't able to respond individually... i've been overwhelmed by some big changes going on now (started a new job) and also i think i was overwhelmed by everyone's kind replies!... you're all a bit too much for me...
((raven))((flamingo))((beebs)((BLT))((morgs))((eliana))((starfish))((butterfly))((born2write))((AG))((lucina))((effed))


puppet

yay so happy you had a good session puppet!!
Congrats on the new job too!

Yay - well done Puppet - great to hear!! s

Woo Hoo!

quote:

My T once told me about a patient with whom he spent a year in silence until she started talking. When I asked him what they had learned, he said that he learned patience and how to be still and she learned she was mattered enough for someone to wait for her to speak. I thought that was tremendously powerful

wow, that IS powerful and at the same time tender as hell! thanks for sharing AG!

this is something i struggle with as well. i do better with pen and paper ... just never had the gift of gab and when i hear of others nearly filling the hour talking i wonder "wtf did they even talk about"? not sure i could ever do that. kudos to you, puppet, for making such HUGE strides! i applaud you!

for me, it's the anxiety and transference that hold me back. anxiety can cause your mind to go blank, and most of us are pretty familiar with the strong feeling of transference to understand how that can affect our freedom to speak. also, a lot of times i just think nothing i have to say is relevant and i don't want to seem like a cry baby, which brings me to Lucinda's comment:

quote:

It took me so long to bring up the little girl part of me and I would not accept that she was me!!!

that's huge for me because i SO struggle with even acknowledging the little girl in me. like i'm an adult already, ok? totally self-sufficient and i dont' need anybody. riiiight! i wish i could get in touch with her, but i think she's been in hiding for a long time and is so afraid of showing her face. this is a big one on my list. ((Lucinda)) thanks for reminding of her.

i thank my lucky stars that although there are times of silence in therapy, they're never very long. i think for me T fills in a lot of the silence (not just babble, it is pertinent stuff) not because he's uncomfortable with it, but because he knows my past of rejection and being ignored. and i don't know for sure, but i wonder if he's doing a kind of immersion therapy with me ... get me used to being in a big dudes presence that actually will TALK to ME! acknowledge ME! i think i'm getting better, slowly. still not sure i could ever fill the hour, though.

puppet, may your newly found voice remain. may your newly found self-esteem and trust in another human being grow stronger. best to you always!

sorry i'm late to reply again...
thank you ((eliana, morgs, raven)) for your hugs and enthusiasm!
thanks ((echoes)) lovely to see you too, as always!

hi (closed doors)!
thanks! but i'm afraid last session was more of a fluke then anything... well, it was a beginning, a step forward, but the struggle to talk won't be that easily won. i had my session today and it was again a 'struggle'. we spent the whole time (in between silences) talking about why I struggle to talk / connect. still, progress i think. sometimes it seems a bit of a waste - talking / not talking about 'talking / not talking' (confused...?! me too! ) but i think i have to do this until i find it easier and then i can move on to talking about other issues on my mind.

i am really glad if this thread has been valuable for others too!
thanks closed doors, hope the 'big dude' keeps talking to you and helping you



puppet