Oh TN. Massive virtual hugs from me. You poor thing - this all sounds so raw and painful for you. I wish I had something helpful to say but am at a loss. I am sure there will be some wise words from others soon but just wanted to send you my support now.

I brought up with my t the other day how other people get out of session contact and how it works for me not getting that but as soon as the words were out of my mouth I wa filled with the dread she did for others but not fir me. It was such an awful feeling. Luckily she quickly said she didn't for anyone but even just that moment was ug so can imagine how pretty horrendous it must be for you knowing others got a hug. Even if only 2 and after years and at the end. It does sound like you gave him lots to consider - totally predicting he'll be bringing that up in his supervision - oh sorry just presuming he does have that but now wondering as not sure if that is univerrsal.

I also want to say how brave you were to raise it. I'm so sorry it's left you feeling so rejected. I wish I could find the words to ease that burden. I am utterly convinced you and your t will find a waythrough this and your relationship will be even stronger. Doesn't help you now thou I know.

Sending you lots of positive vibes.
Annie xxx

(((((((((((TN))))))))))))

((((((TN))))))

((((((((((((((((((TN)))))))))))))))

(((TN)))

I know it's not the same thing but...

I'm sad for you. I completely understand how that must have made you feel. It does not sound like he knew how to handle this conversation at all, which really surprises me. Sure he has had such a question come up many times in his career? It is the most natural thing in the world to want a hug, or to have your hand held when you are hurting and crying. And when that was never offered to us growing up...it can still feel like an old ache that will never go away until someone fills it. So I do not understand your T's surprise and discomfort with the subject. I think it would have been a lot easier for you to handle his boundaries if you had not picked up on any kind of emotional response. the words uncomfortable must be so painful to hear when it comes to that kind of touch that you want from him- because, even though I'm sure that your T didn't mean it that way- of course you would ta ke it the way that you did. I think this says more about him than it does about you, TN- maybe he is afraid of feelings in himself- not so much in you. Maybe the "risk" he is talking about in touch with trauma survivors, has more to do with being worried about satisfying his own needs- to feel loving, protective, and to feel good- (because I'm sure it would feel good to any T to hug a hurting client) and that is the "risk" he is talking about, not the risk that you will develop sexual feelings or something. I mean- how many clients have sexual feeling for the therapist hug or no hug? I know I did, and I'm sure most people do at some point, so I doubt that is the risk he's talking about, but rather, the risk of developing a relationship with you that holds out the unfillable hope of meeting those old lost needs that must be mourned in order to live a full life. I mean- in a way, any hug I ever got from an AF (except Cowboy, for some reason) would leaving me totally jonesing. but...maybe you are different.

It's totally understandbale that you were not able to connect anymore after becoming so vulnerable, and feeling rejected. I would've checked out too at that point that's for sure. You did the best you could. But- I do not think that your T thinks of you as untouchable- really I don't. It is his stuff- not you, that is causing this. For whatever reason *he* is not comfortable with it, and he sounds pretty old school.

I'm just surprised that he reacted- by being flustered- that's all. It just seems like such a standard kind of thing that probably comes up in therapy *all* the time for T's. So I think he just wasn't expecting that you were that far along to ask for a hug yet, and that is probably what surprised him. But just know that it is for your good, and *not* because you are icky or untouchable- far from it. You know how it feels when T forgets to touch your shoulder or shake your hand after a session- or for whatever reason it doesn't happen? Makes you feel rejected and so on...multiply that feeling times ten for the times when you don't get a hug after getting one- and it could seriously mess with your trust in him. Hm...I guess I am kind of anti-hug in therapy. But then, I'm pretty avoidant. I doubt Cowboy would hug me, probably, but I don't particularly want him to, either. Maybe that's why it would be ok, idk.

All that being said- I tend to think he should just stuff it, and give you a hug, darn it...be human, mate!

i hope that you will go back in there and talk to him about this. It needs resolved or it will really fester- but I can totally understand how much you must feel like walking away. How painful, and humiliating. *shakes fist at universe* I'm really sorry that it went so badly.

((((((((TN))))))) many gentle hugs,

BB

(((((((((TN)))))))))))))

I am so sorry it turned out this way for you. It is so absolutely dreadful to have a deep need, put it out there and have it rejected. It must have made it worse that T himself was uncomfortable with the topic. Hadn't anyone else brought it up ever?

I know this is no consolation but I think you are tremendously brave to put it out there! And maybe in time you WILL be able to get past it.

I had a similar experience over the summer when I asked T if I could email him on vacation and he said no. I really thought, like you did, he was going to say yes and that he was just waiting for me to be assertive and ask. It triggered incredible feelings of rejection in me. I was flooded for the whole week he was gone and I felt like a total ass.

There I was (and there you were) asking for something you really want, putting yourself in such a vulnerable position and getting denied like that. And, yes, doing all that with a person in a much more powerful position than I (you were) was in, with the power to say no (or yes) while we don't have any power over that whatsover. They decide where the bounaries are. I don't blame you for not wanting to go back. When that happened to me over the summer, I cancelled my next appointment with T when he came back because my feelings were so intense and I could not face him right away. Instead I wrote him two letters. And then I went to see him. I couldn't stay away that long.


T and I have discussed how on earth I could think he wanted me to have it but I just had to ask for it, how I could misread the situation and that I must be doing that IRL as well. It was kind of the same thing when I wanted to go twice a week and he wasn't feeling comfortable with it and kept me on his float list. I thought he just wanted me to ask for it. I totally misread that also. I wasn't getting it. It's very scary.

It's great that said that you've given him a lot to think about. Maybe he will reconsider. Maybe he will offer something else as an alternative. But, even if he doesnt, you might also learn more about yourself and your needs and how you might set yourself up IRL to get hurt. So, hopefully you will be able to go back eventually.

I still admire your courage for bringing it up in the first place. But I'm so sorry it hurts so much.

xoxoxoxo

((((((BIG CYBER HUGS))))))))

Love,

Liese

I just read BB's post and I'm editing this to add that I just wanted to second BB's thought that it's the most natural thing in the world to want a hug. This point is essential because it's a need that all humans have, not just you. And you are not wrong to want it. I've struggled with my own longings for some kind of physical contact with T but once I accepted that it was a normal human need, I felt so much less embarrassed for having those needs - even if T can't fulfill those needs.

((((TN))))

Not in a place to offer much, but I'm so sorry about your T's response. I am also surprised by the knee-jerk response he gave when you first brought it up. The thing that gets me is that I'm sure he's been asked that question before...how could he be so shocked that you'd ask for a hug? It makes me wonder if there's a particular reason why the prospect of hugging a client shook him up so much (besides the typical, formulated response about professional boundaries).

So sorry that this conversation was so hurtful, TN.

((((TN))))

Ouch. How painful and awkward. Just reading that made me want to cry for/with you! I really think your T could have handled this situation so much better than he did. I wish I could say something that could help, but I don't even know what to say. I'm sending good wishes your way, though. My thoughts are with you, TN.

Oh TN. I'm so sorry for the hurt that you are trying not to feel right now. I feel really bad that I sorta encouraged you to initiate the hug discussion. I really didnt think this would be his answer. I suppose the subject was bound to come about sooner or later. I'm not sure you would want to go back to not knowing either. I can just imagine how much of a bad nightmare it would feel if it were me in your shoes. For what its worth, I was really impressed by the way you articulated your need for therapeutic touch in such a reasonable, logical way. It must have been hard for him to argue against it when you put it that way. I don't think I would have had the presence of mind to defend my need so articulately. I always seem to lose arguments to my T. I am just lucky she believes in giving hugs because if she didn't I doubt I would be able to persuade her otherwise, she is so stubborn. I doubt this is of much comfort to you, but I didn't see his refusal to hug you as any sort of rejection of you personally. The other two people only got a hug AFTER 6 or 7 years, and probably ONLY BECAUSE they were terminating. So you can't compare yourself to them just yet. Although the comment he made about not knowing you well enough would have stung. How much does a person have to know? Doesn't he know much more than the average person does? Yeah, that part might have set me off. I can see how you would want to feel dead inside to protect against the great pain. So many hugs to you, (((((TN))))).

(((TN))) I'm so sorry that your T responded the way that he did. I'm a bit surprised that he was so flustered by the conversation. I can also understand why you feel it would be hard to get into the really vulnerable stuff and have the fear that you will be left alone in it. Monte said what I was thinking really well. I think that AG (and others who have healed without touch) can probably speak more to the issue of going to the vulnerable spots without the touch. I'm sorry that you are hurting. I do think it was really brave of you to put that out there.

(((hugs)))

((((((( TN )))))))

I am SO sorry you’re having to go through this. I was pretty gobsmacked reading your post as (like others here I think) I just assumed your T would be ok with touch so it was a shock to read how he responded to your query.

I have to say I’m pretty mad at him and I think I understand how you must be feeling now. Angry, hurt, rejected, berating yourself, probably shame in there as well? I got misled, as you probably did too, by the fact that he shakes your hand and pats you on the shoulder. If he has a no-touch policy then it ought to be clear and across the board. The kind of touch he does initiate with you makes it all very hazy and misleading.

I can’t believe he brought his own feelings into this. Ok he’s being truthful saying his reasons for the no touch policy is because he feels uncomfortable with it, which is better than hiding behind stock phrases, but like others have said, surely after twenty years as a T this is not the first time the issue of touch in session has arisen and hasn’t he worked out where he stands on it by now without having to cite his own feelings as the reason for it. He’s showing an uncharacteristic lack of clarity and certainty here.

Which rather begs the question, especially as he says you’ve given him lots to think about and that your query has challenged him, that maybe he’s not adamantly against it and might well reconsider in terms of its being adaptive to YOUR specific individual needs. The fact that he threw out a host of other reasons as well (what has not knowing you well enough to do with anything, that sounds like a grabbing at a straw type reason) tends to indicate that he genuinely has been thrown by your query and just wasn’t prepared for it. Which strikes me as very odd considering he’s a specialist attachment based T. It’s all very confusing. And it doesn’t sound like he’s 100% decided against it, but that what he said today was all very much a bit of a knee jerk reaction to something that’s caught him on the hop.

I’m not sure what I can say that’s going to make you feel one iota better, but I will say that if I were in your position I’d be fuelling my anger and getting ready to go back in and have a big confrontation about it all (for therapeutic reasons, not just to have a go.) He’s told you no to something that you’ve made very clear is very important to you. He MUST expect that you will be feeling very very bad about that and if he’s a half decent T he will recognize that one of the most important things he can do is encourage you to get angry at him about it. Oh I dunno, it all sucks and I’m just appalled at how badly this has hurt you and made you experience this wonderful relationship you’ve worked so hard to build as dust and ashes in your mouth right now

I have faith that you will be able to work through this with him, though that’s probably the very last thing you’re thinking of at the moment. I hope you are able to call on all the support you have to get you through right now.

Sending you loads of cyber hugs TN,

LL

((((TN))))

My words may offer no solace ~ but I'm going to put them out there anyway. I also realize I have a lot of healing ahead of me with my own childhood attachment problems and PTSD.

As a minister, I have taken many classes and workshops on healing, couseling, grief, etc. It is definitely easier to help others than yourself! I have been taught by others that touch and hugs can actually impede a healing process. For example, a normal reaction to someone crying is to hug or pat them and tell them everything will be OK. This can turn off the feeling part of the brain and cause a person to block the sorrow at that time, only to be buried inside again, waiting for another release. If, however, someone can simply bare witness to your pain, real healing can begin because it isn't thwarted but allowed to be recognized fully. It has been a process for me to stop myself from telling someone it's OK, there, there now, don't cry.

Now, I do agree that after baring witness, it might be nice to be able to ask for a hug or have a hug offered. I think your T was brave to admit he is uncomfortable with it. Maybe it will cause him to examine his healing methods.

I wish you the very best with your journey as you move forward.

Suraya

((((TN))))

I'm so sorry that T isn't comfortable giving hugs and apparently wasn't that comfortable discussing it with you. It sounds so painful and awful. I imagine it doesn't seem like nearly enough to say that I think it was very brave of you to to ask for a hug and continue talking about why it was important for you in the face of his negative knee jerk response. It is amazing how well you can articulate your need. I certainly can't imagine asking for a hug.

I hope AG chimes in to remind you about healing without hugs. I think what is most important is going back and explaining to him how painful it is for you to not receive a hug from him so he knows how you feel but I can understand wanting to run. That is how I feel most of the time.

I can't think of anything helpful to say but I am thinking of you and here to listen.

love and hugs

(((TN)))
I really feel for you today, as do so many others. I wish this experience with your T didn't leave you in so much pain.

I am so impressed with what you were able to tell him about why the hug is important. I would have shut down after "...this side of the room." I don't think he really handled it very well, either. It's not you!

Maybe by "challenging" him, he is learning something, and you are helping the next unsuspecting client who is brave enough to bring it up the way you did.

Not that that would make you feel better now, but I hope that the support and wisdom from your friends here helps.

((Sincere Hugs))

Quell

((((TN))))

I want to agree with the others here that you were very brave to ask about this and I don't think it was a mistake to open up about these needs, despite the current state of things, though I know right now it must feel awful and like something you wish could be erased, reliving all these messages of being unlovable and untouchable. When reading about your anguish, I'm reminded of the pain I had when T has been sitting on the floor with me and then all of a sudden decided it hadn't been a good idea, had been some sort of mistake. It was scary to move forward after that, so to have the conversation about a hurting little one wanting physical touch was nearly impossible and that my first few conversations were met with resistance along the professional lines (though not the personal) was very painful to me.

I think your T was probably not trying to make things about him when he shared his personal reservations, no more than my T was trying to make it about himself when he shared his personal desire to be comforting, but concerns over the appropriateness. I think him going to his personal comfort was the only thing he could probably think to do when he realized his startled reaction and intellectualizing of this boundary would make you feel as if you were specifically untouchable to him. Mentioning the other clients, though, was probably a mistake.

I do have to say that I'm surprised. From your description, I didn't see him being particularly snuggly, but I assumed for sure that goodbye hugs would be available, just from his shaking hands and arm pats. My T never did either of those things, so I always presumed him to be very distant. I think, although my T is more personally inclined, he was actually LESS professionally inclined in the beginning and it is something he has really grown in with me particularly because he saw it as helpful in my particular case. I don't want to say things will necessarily change, but your T doesn't seem the sort of stubborn person that won't give this sort of thing consideration. He has a humble sort of feel to him and his remarking that he had a lot to think about certainly says that he at least wants to get at what is behind this need and address it together. I know the temptation to think that is impossible and bolt right now must be so strong, but I don't think the relationship is dead, whether or not he ultimately reworks his thinking, as my T did after reading that article.

The thing that helped me most during the weeks after T and I had a rupture over a similar topic (again, closeness), was to continue processing everything I was feeling toward him with him (sending texts when stuff got really unstable, despite wanting to quit, baring my soul in journal entries, etc.). I was able to discuss my overwhelming feelings that this pain would kill me or at least my trust in T, while sharing my understanding of the therapeutic end of his decision. I don't know if it would be helpful to you, but I am willing to share some of those entries with you (privately) if you think relating in that way might be helpful.

Last of all, I know it must be painful to hear from some of us who have crossed this particular touch boundary with our Ts, so while I did want to write here out of total support and care for you, if you find it too painful to hear from me about any of this, please feel free to let me know and I can delete my post or refrain from posting more. All I want is to be helpful and supportive right now and I know sometimes that is impossible, so if that is one of those times, please let me know. Sending you a lot of love. It will be OK.

((((((((((((((TN))))))))))))))

Thank you all for the heartfelt, thoughtful responses. Please don't delete any of them. I can't really respond much right now because I'm in a lot of pain. It is a physical pain in my chest and for some reason in my wrists and hands. It comes and goes but it feels very intense and I don't know what to do about it and it makes it uncomfortablet to type. I haven't felt this much pain since the day oldT abandoned me. I need to go back and re read all the posts when I am able to focus better.

I just wanted to add here that I did tell him that I believed that withholding touch can at times be more damaging than allowing it. The problem is that he made this about him... it is HIS being uncomfortable with touching me so how can I say anything more about this. If I was touchable then he would not feel this way. If it was a matter of professional ethics and theoretical beliefs then I could present my case and the research to back it all up. I could reason with him and show him the ways in which this is a helpful productive step in therapy and in the relationship but I can't do this because of the reasons he gave for rejecting my request. What is there to explore or discuss? Nothing. It's done.

Yaku, I had the Zur Institute article I linked to in my purse where I highlighted the important and relevant parts to discuss. But his reason was personal and not professional... so that was useless to me.

thanks everyone
TN

TN,

Before I say anything else, I first want to say that its totally understandable that you are dealing with a flood of feelings, of sadness, hurt, anger, humiliation and rejection. To ask for something that feels like such a deep need and hear a no is painful under the best of circumstances. But in therapy, you are back in circumstances, under which you are thrust back into all those feelings of childhood: of being powererless, of not being loved, of asking for that which should be freely given. Even if there is nothing wrong with your T saying no about a hug, it will evoke all of the pain and sadness of not having safe touch in your life then. So I do not want to minimize or be insensitive to the very real pain that you are in. I am sorry for your suffering and for the deprivation you experienced which led to this suffering. You know that I care deeply for you and want to see you heal. I just ask that you remember that as you read the rest of this post.

Before I continue to address TN, though, I would like to say something to everyone here. I have noticed a trend on the forum which concerns me. I think of it as the good T/bad T flip flop. As in when someone posts about their T and is happy about what happened, then the T is a good T, but if the person is unhappy about something their T has done, then they are a bad T. This goes back to a primitive defense mechanism used by young children (and often not yet outgrown by trauma victims. I have only recently learned not to do it and can often catch myself slipping back into it) of splitting. Instead of seeing one person who we are sometimes happy with and sometimes angry with, we split them into two people. For me it was "good" dad and "bad" dad. And when we're seeing one half of the split, we are in denial that the other half exists. I think it is important that we struggle to see people as whole, with good and bad aspects, and the realization that sometimes what they do pleases us and sometimes disappoints us. But even more importantly, because we are pleased, does not make what they did necessarily good and if we are disappointed, that does make what they did necessarily bad. A mother who does not allow her child to have a hot fudge sundae for breakfast is not doing something "wrong." Please believe and trust me that this is NOT directed at anyone in particular. It's just a tendency I've noticed (probably because I am prone to this thinking) that I wanted to point out.

Sorry, TN, back to what happened to you. Since I seem to be one of the few other people who has a T who does not hug, I felt like I should chime in. My T was a little different in that he has an across the board policy of no hugs, which your T told you that he has hugged two people (not sure that was the most brilliant choice on his part to tell you that). I can see where that would make it more difficult to hear a no. But the fact that he stated that there was only one hug per person and it was a goodbye hug seems to me not to be him choosing to give one person a hug and saying no to another. It sounds more like he thinks a hug is for a specific occasion, that of a client leaving and even in that case, it is rare. So to see this as a reflection on how he feels about you is I think, mistaken.

I too am surprised that he seemed taken aback by you asking, but who knows? Maybe not many people ask the question because it's too scary. I remember when I asked my therapist, he seemed pretty calm but then he always does. And considering he has a policy, it was obvious this was something he had thought through. Any my T, like yours, does not forbid touch completely. We always shake hands at the end of a session and occasionally at the beginning. I forget who commented about this in the thread, but I wanted to say that I do not find being willing to shake hands but not hug inconsistent. Shaking hands is an accepted form of touch in our culture for formal relationships. I actually always saw this as a good good middle ground. His willingness to shake hands let me know I wasn't "untouchable" but held much less risk of misinterpretation than a hug which can contain both the elements of affection and erotic desire. TN, I know you said that the message you are hearing is that you are disgusting and untouchable, but I would disagree based on your past experience with your T. If he thought you were disgusting and untouchable I do not think he would have been shaking your hand and patting your arm all this time. However, it sounds like he does not see hugging as appropriate to the therapeutic relationship (at least as a regular weekly practice.)

quote:

As a minister, I have taken many classes and workshops on healing, couseling, grief, etc. It is definitely easier to help others than yourself! I have been taught by others that touch and hugs can actually impede a healing process. For example, a normal reaction to someone crying is to hug or pat them and tell them everything will be OK. This can turn off the feeling part of the brain and cause a person to block the sorrow at that time, only to be buried inside again, waiting for another release. If, however, someone can simply bare witness to your pain, real healing can begin because it isn't thwarted but allowed to be recognized fully. It has been a process for me to stop myself from telling someone it's OK, there, there now, don't cry.

I really agreed with what Raven said especially as this was one of the main reasons my T gave for not hugging. That it was important for me to move beyond him and go to the source of the pain. Which, in my case, turned out to be very true. My longing for a safe embrace was VERY tied up with the fact that I didn't have that from my father. That I longed for a physical embrace that was about my needs and didn't need to be paid for. My T, while saying no to a physical hug, was very open to discussing all my feelings about wanting one and what it felt like not to be able to have had that or to get it from him. When I asked initially, and he said no, we spent the whole session discussing it. I returned to the subject a number of times (the following week because a close friend in therapy had asked for a hug the same week I did and got "yes" for an answer. That really hurt, which my T totally understood) and at one point ended up screaming at him about. I actually wrote a post about this on my blog (which I know you already read).

My T also felt that the risk of harm from a hug was much stronger than the hope of any good that would come from it. There are a lot of complexities involved. Is the touch welcome, how would his motivation be perceived, would I experience the hug as erotic, would I see him as experiencing the hug as erotic, etc. I know you have been clear about the relationship being very parental. For me, because there was as strong erotic component to my desire for my T, I was less sanguine about what my motivations were and so, although there was a deep, painful longing to be held (and you know that I am still working through that), I wasn't completely sure it was a good idea. My T was also clear that even if it did help in some way, it still wouldn't make the loss go away. I still would not have had a safe embrace from my father. In my case, from where I'm standing now, I understand that the hug was in some ways, a potent symbol of all that I wanted from my T. For him to be the good father I never had and make up to me all that I had lost so that it would no longer be painful. Which was an impossibility. So in my case, I think my T withholding that form of touch, actually helped me to stay clear about what he could and could not provide. Which was an incredibly confusing, painful struggle as it was, so I think in the end, I am glad that he maintained that boundary with me.

As for healing without touch, I obviously believe it's possible. My T was very present with me and I never walked into grief that he was not beside me but he did not show that through touch. He communicated it through his attunement, through his acceptance, through his voice (he would often soothe me with his voice when things were really intense) and through his understanding. There were times when something would shift for me internally, I would make a connection or start to go away, and my T would ask about it sometimes before I was conscious about it. I saw him about a week and a half ago and we were discussing an issue that I was really struggling to understand. I knew it was triggering something from my past but was having trouble understanding what. We were discussing the whole thing and I started going towards what was so painful. I hit a point where an overwhelming feeling of terror started to well up. My T was talking and I didn't say anything, just got hit with the feeling and he literally stopped what he was saying mid-word and said "what just happened? what is coming up for you?" What I am trying to convey is that my feelings told me that his not hugging me was about him not caring and about me being unloveable, yet he showed a depth of caring I had never known in so many other ways. So my beliefs, as strong as they were, just did not fit my experience with my T. Which is what allowed me to understand that those feelings of not being cared about were true, just not about my T. They were true about my parents.

The best way to describe it is that I often felt embraced and held and cherished, even though we were separated by several feet. I could "feel" him on such a deep, attuned level, that whether or not we were touching became immaterial. OK, the blanket I got from him also helped with the feeling of being held. It was a safe way for me to be held by him. In the end, it was being heard, understood and accepted that proved to be important for me.

Again, I do not want to minimize the very real pain you are in, but before you pronounce the time of death on the relationship, I would urge you to allow some time to process the hurt and to consider the very real depth of connection that you have formed with your T. He did not become your guiding light due to a lack of care or attunement. You are now in a place that you would not have believed possible a year ago. So I would want you to consider that even though right now you can not believe it is possible for you to open up and process your trauma without touch, that also may be possible with your T. He has proven trustworthy so far. His setting his boundary in a place you do not like, does not render him untrustworthy.

I realize you may be really pissed at me after reading this. That's ok, I know this is not fun stuff to hear, but please know that I say it both because I love you and I believe it to be the truth. And while I know I may be wrong about whether or not you need touch to heal, I'm not wrong about loving you.

I hope that you are able to go back and talk about everything this has brought up for you, the hurt, the humiliation, the pain, the longing, the distrust, any and all of the feelings this has evoked and that your T can meet you with acceptance and understanding.

love, AG

((((((((TN))))))) I am sorry you did not get the answer you wanted from your T. I asked the same question a few months ago and got the no hugs policy answer. I was so upset but even now I will say I wish you could hold me when I get upset, hoping I will get a different answer but I don't. But I have to say our relationship goes deeper each time I ask, we explore what I am feeling and my T always makes me feel held somehow. I hope you can talk to your T about how you felt xxx

Hev

Hey TN - hugs - hope you are working through this painful part OK. I believe you will definitely come through this stronger.

AG - I really liked your post. I too have healing without touch and it totally and utterly works for me. FWIW I can't believe TN will be cross with you - it totally read like it was coming from a place of love to me.

AnnieLake.

Hugs TN, sorry for your pain at the moment.

Please don't give up on your T, please don't give up on yourself and please don't give up on your relationship together.

I am so glad you could ask about it. That may seem like a heartless thing to say when you are feeling so much pain - but it has been a blockage for your progress and now you have asked and now you have an answer. it isn't the answer you want or need - but you have an answer and now you can repair and move forward.

I have just done this with my T - ie had a rupture and we repaired the relationship. It feels good with her now.

Your question has really challenged your T - he will be doing some soul searching himself - this too is a good thing. Please be brave and see him again. You both need to talk about this. Sorry - my supportive words are not flowing from me today - please just know that I am sending you hugs and hope you can find a peaceful place within.

Aw TN

Well done for asking about the hug, that was really brave - and a good start, even if you didn't get the response you hoped for.

I agree with others TN that it's not all lost - far from it. Your T is simply showing a consistencty and a respect to you and him. This is what he does because he belives that is the right thing and he is being true to himself in doing so.

I often think about touch in therapy. I wonder myself how it would be if I had a male T....and I think and know that I would feel very differently to how I feel about receiving safe hugs from my female T now. That may be just me, IDK, but to me it wouldn't feel the same and the fact that I would start think about boundaries is interesting. Now I never have because it feels so safe and therapeutic, it's never really crossed my mind.

I think it's good that he is cautious - he cares about you and thinks carefully about his actions. I agree that care can be shown without touch - my T does touch, but for me it's often the tone of her voice, a look or simply just sitting with me in my pain that is so healing.

However I must admit there is nothing like a hand to hold or a hug in moment of fear and shame, that connection when you feel at your most awful, unlovable and dirty has helped to move mountains for me.

I hope you can start to use this as a building block to graeter things and understanding TN. Care is not always measured in touch - virtually everything you have written about T since you have been with him resonates his care and competence. Please don't give up on him or you



starfishy

TN,
I'm sorry for your pain.

Hopeful

quote:

He asked me why I thought touch was important

...

quote:

He was thoughtful for a moment and said that I gave him a lot to think about

...

TN- I am sorry to see you struggle so with this, but I feel all may not be lost. You made some very good points about the importance of touch. Perhaps an "old dog" can change his stripes ( or something like that).

I don't think this is over , yet. And I wish you the very best, because you are right... safe touch is important in healing.

Holding someones hand while they are in pain is showing compassion. Words are not necessary, but in my opinion silence with a physical connection can be powerful. It is being "with" a person in their pain.
Christ used touch in the healing process, and he is considered the "great healer."

Hele

((((((((((TN))))))))))

You've received some really awesome responses. I wish I could respond out of an experience of having worked through this, but I can't. The opportunity I might have had to work through this kinda crashed and burned when I got terminated with the male T I worked with, and the female T I worked with after that, although we did some really important work together, did not trigger those kinds of longings/feelings.

But I do very much sympathize/empathize with the terrible feelings of rejection and shame that are coming up, and I'm sorry you are experiencing them. They are debilitating, and I'm not a bit surprised that you are having actual physical pains in all of this. I think somewhere else on the forum someone once brought up the subject of how grief can actually manifest itself in waves of pain radiating out from the chest and down the arms. I know I've experienced it before, too, in relation to old hurts, and I don't envy you one bit.

However...I do have to agree with the others who've encouraged you not to write your T off just yet, though. In your first post, I did not interpret what you said as him rejecting "you", but that because of his heritage, he is uncomfortable with hugging in general. He may have explained a little too much of his own stuff in his answer to you...but it still sounded like his stuff, and that it wasn't about you at all. Those two that he did hug, it sounds like he only "allowed" it because it was their last session (and perhaps he was taken by surprise both times?). From the way you related it, it didn't sound like his idea, and it didn't sound like he enjoyed it, either. It really did sound like he's just not a hugger.

Even though it doesn't feel like it right now, I think he is still your shining light, he's still your awesome T. You've been really courageous in opening up hugely painful, literally life-threatening pain from your childhood. I just want to weep for that little girl who got nothing but rough, uncaring, mindless handling, and that was on the GOOD days. . I have no doubt that - eventually - this will bring about a lot of healing for you. But right now, you just opened up an awful lot of really old, really enormous amounts of hurt. I am so very sorry it hurts so much right now. I hope you can keep your next appointment with your T and tell him exactly what you are telling us here so he can help guide you through it.


SG

quote:

I did not interpret what you said as him rejecting "you", but that because of his heritage, he is uncomfortable with hugging in general. He may have explained a little too much of his own stuff in his answer to you...but it still sounded like his stuff, and that it wasn't about you at all.

By SG

I agree wholeheartedly with SG on this one. that is how I interpreted your post as well. (more his stuff- than yours)

Hugs to you TN

(((((TN))))))

Just checking in on you to let you know I'm thinking about you and hoping you are at least somewhat coping and making it through the days. I agree with the others that it wasn't a rejection, it was more about him - which I think he needed to convey so that you would know it wasn't about you - BUT I know all too well that that doesn't matter, it still FEELS like a rejection. And that part of you that needed it so much, that hurt part of you just got hurt again. And feels rejected and abandoned. And I would too.

You weren't wrong to want it and you aren't wrong to need it. It's a valid, vital human need. Pull that need close to you and protect it.

It's small consolation but if you can just keep going, though, you might learn that the relationship will survive and even get stronger. You might feel T's loving-care even more strongly than you did before, or even more strongly than if he had said yes. Sometimes the boundaries are actually more loving in the long run even though it doesn't feel that way now. Now it just hurts like mad and it's hard to imagine where the love is in that pile of pain. Not only is he protecting himself but he is also protecting you until you can learn to protect yourself.

When my T told me he didn't love me, intellectually I got it but was completely distraught on an emotional level. I kept going, hoping that somehow it would ease the pain and it has, maybe not at first but over time, because what happened was that the relationship evolved into a more genuine, honest, authentic and *loving* relationship. And yours will too.

I know the words don't really help. Just felt the need to try to say something comforting.

xoxoxo

Love,

Liese

TN, I'm not too good with words, but I wanted you to know I've been thinking about you

I have sent you a personal message about how my P changed from absolutely no touch, never having touched a client EVER, to allowing me to touch him when I need to and he requests permission to touch my arm or hand if I am being very distressed. And now I hold his hand when I need to and feel able to lean on his arm if I am tired or feeling very small indeed. I just dug my heels in - I knew what I needed and no therapy jargon was going to derail me. I also knew I needed to educate my P as he is a very not touchy feeley person and I am the absolute opposite. so I have sent you a post about HOW that transformation from his side came about.

I am so glad you are challenging your T on this. They are always learning and it is good when we can help them stretch and mature in areas where they are weak or have views that are damaging to us.

Hi everyone... I have been away for the last night and day because I was in too much pain to even read my own thread. I came back on tonight to check in and was amazed at the outpouring of care and kindness and so many hugs and great advice and information for me.

I just wanted to come by and thank you all from the bottom of my heart for this. I am okay. Still feeling pain but I will go to session tomorrow to see what my T has to say. I hope he makes more sense tomorrow and is less scared by my request.

I have homework to get done but I will try to stop by later to address some of the posts (there are so many ) because you have all made such an effort to be of help to me. How would I ever survive without you all?

Thanks again


TN

Hello,

Just popped in and I wanted to comment on this thread because I think there's another element that's worth considering. TN, first, I'm sorry you are in so much pain. It was brave to ask and I think it's wonderful that you took your courage in your hands and were willing to explore this territory, not knowing the outcome, even knowing it could hurt. The courage to explore our own pain is, I believe, what really takes us places in therapy, hugs or no hugs, and you clearly have that.

The thing I want to draw some more attention to is that therapists have the right to practice within their own comfort zones. There is a therapist in the room, sure, who is paid to do their best for the client. But the therapist is also a person, who can't do their best if they are not allowed their own boundaries. I think it's great that Sadly and Monte's Ts have revisited their policies on touch in the light of long, serious dialogue and study. But I would be very wary of considering this the *standard of care* or best practice for therapists in general. Therapists are people too, with their own needs and limits, and these are very specific to them, their personalities, their practice modalities and so on. These needs and limits have nothing at all to do with us as clients or people. Some therapists may find some flexibility on this point, many may not, but the work remains to be done *inside us* as clients - the work of coming to terms with being in relationship, where both parties have thoughts, feelings, voices. It's really dynamic, frightening and exciting to allow BOTH parts of the relationship equation, and this is prime ground for exploring that.

Good luck, TN.

xxJones

Hi TN,
I have been thinking about you so much since I read your thread the other day. I had to calm myself before I could respond and also needed to wait until I was in the right frame of mind to comment.

First, I feel for you so much. I understand the pain in your chest and your hands and your heart. I think that we all do. I do agree with AG and the others that this was in no way personal or about you. It was about him- and I don't think it's a done deal. Even if it is an immovable boundary, I still think there is hope.


You are so brave. I have no idea why you think you're disgusting. However, I assure you that no one with a heart like the one you share could ever be disgusting.


Good luck tomorrow. I'll be thinking about you.

I too have been thinking about you TN as Nobledaughter has. Listen to what T says about it - see how he has reflected on your request. You took him by surprise - talk it through with him.

I am actually feeling guilty. Guilty because I asked T about hugs last week and she surprised me with her reply. I am avoidant and resisting attachment - and certainly don't want hugs or her to move an inch closer to me ... So when T said that she will initiate a hug with a patient if she thinks the client needs one - is dissociated (for instance) - she said if she thinks it will help, she will hug. She will also hug if the client requests it. And she does walking therapy AND is open to going for a drive in a car if that helps. She will also sit side my side the client if that helps.

So here I have the most flexible amazing T in the world - and I am avoidant and ready to run away if she even takes a step toward me. Knowing that T will hug me if I ask for one - surely must help me deep down, but I won't be asking any time soon.

It is all give and take. My T isn't that great in other areas - so it evens out.

Hope my BIG VIRTUAL HUG (((((TrueNORTH))))) - helps a little bit.

Somedays

Hi TN. I have only just come across your thread. I am sorry you have been through so much pain with this. I hope you come to realise that this is just the beginning of a really good and strong relationship with your T. You have had the courage to ask about the hug, it did not turn out the way you would have liked, but YOU took the first step in your own recovery by being able to have the courage to say what you did. You should be very PROUD of that. WHAT HAPPENED DOES NOT MEAN THE END OF THERAPY OR THE END OF THAT RELATIONSHIP. I agree with everything that Jones wrote, very wise and insighful. With my own experience of attachment, love and hurt. I have wanted to recreate in therapy my lost (unhappy) childhood, into the loving, caring childhood. I have so WANTED to feel like the cared for child, no matter how badly i behave, i wanted to know that someone cared for me no matter what i did. I have wanted to CREATE every scenario i imagined a good childhood to be. Just to experience what that must feel like has been intoxicating for me. The HUG, seems to be the most important thing for all us because in our minds we are trying to recreate what we consider to be the most important thing missing in our childhoods. This is normal and natural enough, but it really is NOT the largest or most important thing of our therapy. Exploring those feelings, grieving, coming to terms with that loss is what it is all about. YOUR relationship with your therapist is your own unique relationship. I GUARANTEE YOU, your therapist does care about you, does like you and wants the best for you. WHY, because he has seen your vulnerability and for any human being to see another's vulnerability that is a hard thing to not care for and to not like. I really hope you can work through this with your T. Good luck. HC

Hey TN,

Sending good wishes for a positive, healing, and connecting session for you today!

All the best,
HIC

((((TN))))

Thinking of you and hoping your session goes well. I know your T cares about you and will want to work through all the feelings this has stirred up together. I hope you are really able to feel that care today.

(((TN))) This made my eyes well up a bit. Big, BIG hugs to you hon. I can imagine that it did not feel very good for you to hear that. I don't know what to say, but I wish you the best of luck getting over this hurdle and to see what you will do next.

quote:

The thing is that I am trying to get past the issue I have of when I'm hurt I refuse to allow anyone to touch me. When I'm in pain I run from touch, from other people and my body actually hurts if someone tries to help me. If I fall and someone wants to help me up I scream at them to get away from me and leave me alone

Same here. I run and hide.

I think touch should be used MUCH more in therapy. We live in an over-sexualized society where touch is deemed to be sexual. I can understand certain restrictions on it in the therapeutic relationship but I do really wish that it was utilized more.

In fact I've realized in myself too that I believe that hugs would really, really help a lot. A MASSIVE lot. I am scared of intimacy to the point where I shrink away from a prospective partner that I might like. Because of this, I've not had a relationship where I feel attracted to someone. I'm only 25 but most people by 25 at least once meet and become intimate with 1 person. That saddens me.

A hug is simply a caring gesture and an exceptionally powerful and breaking one too. Breaking in the sense of breaking those big walls we put up to protect ourselves way too much. A hug is so important because we receive the intimacy that we needed when we were younger too.

I'm considering changing my therapist to one which allows hugs. I'm not sure if mine does or not. I don't think she does. She has just started out too with her therapy work. I don't want to change her because she's everything to me but if need be, I will have to go through that pain to get to a therapist who will hug. I really need it to break this wall down

Keep safe TN. Always here. Lots of hugs your way. xxx

quote:

I do not find being willing to shake hands but not hug inconsistent. Shaking hands is an accepted form of touch in our culture for formal relationships. I actually always saw this as a good good middle ground. His willingness to shake hands let me know I wasn't "untouchable" but held much less risk of misinterpretation than a hug which can contain both the elements of affection and erotic desire. TN, I know you said that the message you are hearing is that you are disgusting and untouchable, but I would disagree based on your past experience with your T.

(By AG)

I believe that AG has some very good points here.

Therapists are people too, with their own needs and limits, and these are very specific to them, their personalities, their practice modalities and so on. These needs and limits have nothing at all to do with us as clients or people. Some therapists may find some flexibility on this point, many may not, but the work remains to be done *inside us* as clients - the work of coming to terms with being in relationship, where both parties have thoughts, feelings, voices. It's really dynamic, frightening and exciting to allow BOTH parts of the relationship equation, and this is prime ground for exploring that. (This one is by Jones)

Both of these points jumped out at me in the thread, and I think they are important to remember.(for me included)

Why do we (I) tend to blame ourselves, (myself) or think that we are (I am) lesser because of something... that is clearly anothers boundary. I am so guilty of this too. (althouth T never did call me back, waaahhh...) TN you bumped up against his boundary, and perhaps for him to be the best T he can be, he sets his limits, and they are all about him, not you. I needed to hear this stuff too, so thanks for the topic. I have gleaned much stuff, that I needed to hear. THANKS EVERYONE. Tons of great input.

Hi all... I wanted to update with what happened in my session today. I truly want to come back and respond to you all but I don't have enough time right now to do so. I did want to first post this update.

Usually when my T walks into the waiting room to see me he shakes my hand as greeting. Today I was sitting there holding my coat and refused his handshake with a "no" shake of my head and then I looked away but not before catching a very surprised look on my T's face. He only said, "come in". So I walked in and grabbed my blanket, put my stuff down and sat in my usual chair and covered myself with my blanket. and then sat there for literally 15 minutes without moving or speaking. Just staring at the floor. I have NEVER spent so much silent time with a T before. I am so beaten down and exhausted to the bone from lack of sleep and all the pain that I think I really dozed off a few times. It was so warm and quiet in there. My T after a while said "it would be good if you can tell me what is going on". That just make me more angry because he should know that I am upset at that awful session we had on Monday and how he hurt me. But he seemed clueless.

So I sat a bit longer. It was like my mind was having a conversation with him but my voice would not work. I tried to start a few times and just ended up taking a huge breath and giving up. Finally I said to him "you have NO idea how much you messed up on Monday". He said something like "why don't you tell me about it". So I told him that he obviously did not want to talk about touch in therapy and that he acted scared of me. His face told me that I was scary to him. He has always stressed that I am not scary and don't scare him because oldT acted and acts so scared of me. This was always an important part of our dialogue that I was not scary but he proved me right because I scared HIM. He said he was not scared just really surprised at the conversation.

So I just ranted at him how instead of discussing this with me he went on and on with all kinds of excuses as to why he can't hug and telling me that he hugged two other clients, that he dragged oldT into this conversation (which had NOTHING to do with him) to distract me and then he ... he told me that he couldn't offer a hug to me because he does not know me! A few weeks ago he insisted he knew me well and knew what kind of person I was etc. I told him he knows me when it's convenient and he does not know me when it suits him. I told him he just threw a whole bunch of excuses at me to see which one would "stick".

He admitted that he gave me a "piss poor answer" and that he probably told me too much and he did that because he thought it would help me in some way. He repeated once again that his boundaries are clear... no one touches him and he only touches via handshake or pat on the shoulder. And somehow the way he says that is absolutely terrifying to me. It is as if he is pronouncing the death sentence on me. I didn't tell him that but that is how I feel about it. He told me I asked him what his official policy or stance was on touch in therapy and he gave me his official policy and then he repeated it again and I said...so okay I heard you the first time... I got it now....you don't have to keep saying it. I told him I don't know why I even bothered to ask him since he is the least warm person I have ever met and he is cold and scary and has absolutely NO empathy. Why would I ever expect him to allow comfort touch. He never once said to me that it must be hard for me to hear this or he could understand how this would upset me or hurt or confuse me. Again, total lack of empathy because he was so busy telling me HIS stuff. In fact, I told him he should go back to therapy himself to get past his fear of touch!

That launched into a discussion the history of touch or not to touch in therapy and why it is now frowned upon (sort of officially). I told him so much of the good things that come from appropriate touch. He said the danger is that touch can be misinterpreted. And I told him that this is why we have the conversation first and that was all I was trying to do. I didn't expect him to jump up and hug me immediately. I just needed to know and he didn't write in his paperwork his boundaries on touch so how would I know unless I asked??

Then he asked me why I asked that question now. What prompted it. So I told him that he keeps saying now that I have to start doing therapy now that the the trauma from oldT is easing up (personally I think it is settled to a dull roar) and so I said that if I am going to do that I need to know what would be allowed as far as comfort goes and it was not ONLY about a hug but also about any kind of touch in therapy. So he said I asked the question badly and what I should have asked him is "what does my little girl get from him to help her when she is terrified". I shrugged and said so I'm not perfect... so sorry. He said I didn't need to be nor to know everything. But he never did tell me what she would get and I guess that conversation in for the future. He did say we can talk about it but I said not now. But it makes no sense to me... what would I get if not any kind of touch at all and if he is not empathic with his words. He is NOT. I have gotten used to doing without the warm words to soothe me but I do still yearn for them.

Then I told him how I hurt so much, how I have not slept and am so very tired and how my chest and arms hurt and my hands... they hurt the most. And then I got very emotional and pulled the blanket over my head and just cried loudly for some minutes. He asked me not to go under the blanket but I said I had to and that I really wanted to disappear, to go away and be invisible so he couldn't see me. That he made me feel horrible and disgusting and untouchable. And I was just so sad.

There was so much I didn't say and couldn't remember to say. I didn't give him the article because again...why good would it do. Oh, yeah he again said that hugging was not something he personally did or fet comfort with doing. I have no argument I can present to that excuse. He did work to make me see how our relationship is growing (it's certainly experiencing growing PAINS ) and how he does pat me and I wonder if he does that with everyone? It does not matter anyway. When he asked what I would do with this (lack of other touch) I told him that I would just add it to my pile of loss and things I can't have and have to grieve. He ssaid oh sure you do that and I'll be dealing with your passive aggressiveness from now on... he was trying to joke about it.

I came out from under the blanket for tissues and I saw him turn his chair and I said to him... my time is up? He said yes, 10 minutes ago!! I got scared and kept saying OMG OMG... and he said are you going to get in trouble at work? I said not at all it's just that I overstayed. He said it was okay and asked if I was okay to get up. I was feeling dizzy and lightheaded and it took me a minute to get steady on my feet. I put my blanket away and went back to my chair for my water and purse and jacket. Once I walked towards the door he held out his hand to me and I paused and then took it and shook his hand while staring at our feet. I think he shook it with more feeling than usual but I'm not sure if I am just imagining this. Most of the session he seemed so angry at me. When I turned to leave he patted my shoulder and said ... I will see you Monday right? And I said yeah, see you Monday have a good weekend.

So I walked out and since my face was such a mess I, for the first time, searched for the ladies room on his floor of the building. It's a small office building and his suite of offices has NO bathroom and so I found it and at that moment realized he was walking behind me. I rushed into the tiniest bathroom ever and shut the door quickly. And then I hear him go into the men's room next to me! And the walls were pretty thin it seemed and so I decided I needed to run out of there before I heard anything... if you know what I mean!!!

So I freshened up in my car instead LOL.

I really don't know what to think about the session. I don't know if it's good or bad and if we are okay or not. I don't think he cares one way or the other... I give him such headaches all the time. I need too much and ask too much and then I yell at him if I don't get what I need and I am continually frustrated or grieving or angry and I don't see where this is all going. I feel really uncomfortable about going back on Monday because I don't know what to say to him. What makes me sad is that I wanted to share with him next week (in honor of Thanksgiving) what I was thankful for, as it relates to therapy, and now it does not feel right at all. Mostly, because I am not sure of anything.

Thats about it. I wanted to update because you have all been so so supportive and really helped me to get through this week.

Love
TN

(((TN)))

I'm sorry that he is so adamant that he doesn't hug. It sounds like it was very painful but I'm so glad you went and told him how it made you feel. I think he showed his care by allowing you to go over and asking if you were okay to leave but I know that doesn't feel like enough. It is easier to see caring in other people's stories about their T's than it is for me to see it in my own T and that is even worse when you hurt so much.

I wish there was something I could say that would help but I will say that when you say this

quote:

I don't think he cares one way or the other... I give him such headaches all the time. I need too much and ask too much and then I yell at him if I don't get what I need and I am continually frustrated or grieving or angry and I don't see where this is all going

I can relate. I think this is your fear that is all you bring to your T because that is my fear as well. I often wonder why T bothers with me because I am so slow and angry and difficult but he does session after session just like your T does.

Love and hugs,
Di

(((TN))) I'm sorry. It sounds like such a painful session. I am remembering just how I felt after T moved away from me. I think that question, what sort of comfort or support that terrified child can expect if she comes out, is so central to moving forward. It absolutely was for me or no one with any sort of protective role would let any cp out to work with T. What you describe, I told my T made me feel like a "zoo exhibit" (a term that literally makes him cringe), that he would see me in pain and just observe it with analytical detachment, not even caring. For the record, while your T does observe your pain, I'm sure he cares. He has made some slip-ups (badly timed jokes and sharing about the hugs with other clients, maybe), but I do believe he absolutely cares what is best for you and enjoys you as a person. He has said all along that he wants to hear this sort of stuff and I think he is safe with it.

As far as sharing the article, it's fine if you do or if you don't. It isn't going to change his perspective in terms of his personal comfort zone, but maybe will give him food for thought in general. I personally, for some reason, feel like a hand on my arm or shoulder or back (if prolonged) feels more comforting and safer than a hug. I wonder if your T frowns upon any sort of prolonged contact or just hugging in particular. Because, for me, the being close to one another, being in contact (even incidental) is the most meaningful. I don't know how much of that you have a feel for with him.

I'm sorry if any of these musing are unhelpful. I am so proud of how brave you are to keep pushing through. I remember how scary it was to keep sharing my feelings in the midst of thinking that this person was breaking me into tiny pieces and destroying any small ability to trust I had left. But, even if my T hadn't gone the way he did, I felt like we could have worked through these things together. When I initiated the conversations on touch a couple of months later, that is what I fully expected to happen and I felt somewhat ready for it, that painful work. So, I know it can be gotten through and you can heal with your T despite how impossible the relationship feels right now. It just requires those continued bravery and grace and wisdom that you have continually shown in the last year and I know you are up to the task...but I'm so sorry you are always having to be so strong. I know it is exhausting and I wish it were a burden I could lift off of you.

((((((((((((hugs))))))))))) to you and the little girl in there who is feeling so alone and betrayed in this unfair world.

Hi TN,
Yaku is correct to be proud of you. You expressed yourself and that's good. I think that when this is all done you and T are going to be much better off. I'm so sorry for your pain and loss. I am so sorry you feel untouchable and I don't know why you do. You need to look at your heart. If you look at the real you- not the person you think you are, I think you can see the heart. ND

((((TN)))))

I love that you were still able to laugh about having to freshen up in your car.

In all seriousness, though, it sounded like a really tough session and T stood his ground. He sounds like a tough cookie. In answer to his question, why now? how about, why not now? You certainly weren't going to ask him before you were ready to ask him.

Last Christmas I bought my T a gift but then got mad at him the session before the last session. I gave him the gift anyway, but as you expressed, it just didn't feel right. I was still mad at him.

Do you think it would have helped you today if T had expressed that though he has this boundary, he still wants to work with you? That he enjoys working with you? Etc. Etc. Laid out the boundary but made it clear that everything was still okay between the two of you? I thought of that because of how you now feel about yourself that you are too much for T. And I also remember how when my T told me he didn't love me, he never countered it with, but I like you, I enjoy working with you. Those types of statements would have really helped a lot at the time because all I felt was TOTAL rejection.

Don't know what else to say except that hopefully you and he will be able to get past it. And, maybe on Monday you can actually ask him what your little girl gets from him to help her when she is terrified? And maybe it will all be okay.

It was a huge conversation to have. You are so brave for tackling it head-on and for going back today to face the aftershocks. I hope you are at least a little proud of yourself. You do the hard stuff. You face the hard stuff. And you don't run away from it.



xoxoxo

Love,

Liese