Thank you for updating us TN- I've been wondering how it went. T really stood his ground didn't he? It is understandable that you feel the way you do- very. But I do still believe that the work you will do around this will be immensely healing, although it is immensely painful. I really feel for you. I am hitting that wall a bit with Cowboy right now too, and- it's because I really don't want to get closer, that I feel it would be beneficial in some ways, if he did. But it is not the nature of the relationship- the relationship is not comforting, often, it is painful. Painful work- that is what I think I've finally realized about it. And this is a big part of the pain- those unmet needs *still* not being met. Even when they are totally legitimate, and completely innocent. It seems so unfair. I have felt.."what is the point, then?" I hope this helps a bit- the point, I have come to realize, is that I am in therapy not for my T to get to know me, love me, or comfort me...but for me to learn to know myself, love myself, and comfort myself. That is something (if I learn it) that nobody will *ever* be able to take away from me, whether I still have a T, or a relationship, or meaningful others- or not. But- I relate very strongly to this sense that I'm feeling in your post- that it simply doesn't *feel* ok, or right, that therapy is like this. It's like going against every legitimate instinct to put yourself in this painful situation- where you are often left uncomforted in the same pain again- but you know that healing *can* be found there, so you do it anyway.

I can see both sides of the touch debate. I'm very glad that your T does offer some touch. I think you have been very brave to open up this discussion. The thing that I am still very curious about, is why it would take him by surprise...it seems like he knows all about both sides of the argument, the differing perspectives- so why the surprise? I guess I suspect, that many, many clients would never muster up the courage to ask for a hug in the first place. I think you keep your T on his toes, that is for sure! And I think he loves it. I do not think he is angry at you- although I understand why you would feel that from him.

I'm hoping that you will bravely continue to take this on, and work through this rupture. It's a helluva thing, that is for sure. I'm so, so sorry for the pain you are in over it. But I think it is good, that you are feeling the pain, not going numb- that letting the pain out is where a lot of the healing happens, I'll bet.

Much love,

Beebs

quote:

My T hugs me, touches me, it stirs things. He knows it and he says he can never compensate me for what wasn't, but can offer some love in that form today...he talks of possibilities and impossibilities. His physical touch is not a promise of anything, it is just a NOW thing that comforts and supports me as I walk into the past.

Thank you for that Monte. It was beautifully put and articulates some of what I have been struggling to explain. While I know it will never be the same with my T as it should have been with my parents, it could still be of comfort as I face the old demons that seem so frightening to face alone. I always faced things alone. Thank you for also saying that my T is wonderful. I lose sight of that and the good things when I am in so much pain and feel so angry with him.

hi incognito... it is always easier to see the truth in the situations of others and hard to look at and understand our own. Maybe the fact that they are always there and don't give up on us is the true caring they show. IDK... right now I'm feeling mostly confused and lost.

Yaku I am truly understanding your zoo exhibit feeling now. As I sit there in either tremendous pain or in tears and he says nothing but just sits and watches and waits, it causes me to feel like some weird curiosity and that is why I put the blanket over my head. I barely looked at him at all today and could not tell you what he was wearing if my life depended on it. Even when we shook hands I looked at the floor so I have NO idea of the expression on his face. I wish now that I had looked but I was too scared at the time. I was actually waiting for him to throw me out during the session when I was so angry at him.

I agree with the hand on shoulder or back as a comforting gesture rather than a hug. The hug I had in mind was a quick, upper body, non-sexual kind of hug at the end of an truly intense session while standing at the door before I leave. I would not want nor expect him to hold me during some trauma work for extended periods of time. I was talking a 2 second hug at the end of session. And beyond that I don't even know what I want or when or what I would be comfortable with. I just wanted to open the conversation and explore what he could offer and what I would feel was helpful to me and the inner kid who is quite greedy and demanding. Right now I don't think I can go back to this topic for awhile. I am too activated and scared and worried that I will destroy the relationship which seems very fragile to me right now. I don't know how to work around this issue and his immovable boundary. I know I have to respect his wishes but I am struggling with coming to terms with what I can never have from him. Thank you for your kind words about my being brave and gracious over the past year. It truly has been the hardest year of my life and I could not even imagine a year ago even wanting to have touch from this T. I could barely look at him back then I was in such deep grief. Thank you Yaku for your wonderful support.

ND thank you for those generous words to me. They do comfort me. It's so hard to get past that feeling of badness and the rejection of oldT did nothing to help that. Now I'm ultra sensitive to any rejection by this T and blame myself for whatever goes wrong. I hope we find a way to get past this. I'd like to try but it seems that I am now carrying even more grief and there is only so much I can handle. Thank you for saying I have a good heart. I often feel like it's so shattered it's not even there any longer. I hope things continue to go okay for you and your T and the group. Let us know when you can.

Liese... I'm sorry it must have been a hellish experience to hear your T say he does not love you and then not to soften the words with other kind words. But it could be that he was referring to or thinking of romantic love. There are many other kinds of love and caring and I think you T has shown this to you with his actions of giving you that second appointment, of getting up to speed on attachment and then taking your hand recently and being so understanding. All signs of real care. And yes, my T is one tough cookie. I knew that. And he pushes me really hard at times. Most times I can handle it but lately I'm feeling really fragile which I think stems from seeing oldT again and experiencing his rejection too. And remembering the wonderful hugs I got from him so long ago.

I think I will do something on Monday for Thanksgiving. Just write him a note or something. Last year at this time I was absolutely distraught and desolate and lost. I remember cooking Thanksgiving dinner for guests and crying because it was snowing and I missed oldT so much and was in so much pain and the thought of being thankful for anything made me want to vomit. It was just awful. Some of those feelings were coming back to me today as I drove home from work.

Hi Beebs... you are correct in that we have to come to love and accept ourselves and then we don't have to depend on others for that feeling of security. But that is so difficult when I am filled with such virulent self-loathing and cannot even bear to acknowledge myself.

I know there are two sides to the touch debate. And some of us crave it while others cannot even imagine wanting it. And everyone's T seems to have a different opinion on it. I should be happy he at least shakes my hand and touches my shoulder. Lately, he has been shaking my hand twice at the end of a session when it's been tough. I guess I can consider the second shake my hug LOL.

Hi xoxo...thanks for pointing out that maybe the session was better than I thought. And yes, he has every right to decline touch and I'm sure he has his reasons and I have to accept his decision. And hell yes it would be easier to just give me the damn hug!

So this is not about hugs at all? Hmmm....

Actually it's not. It's about what kind of comfort I can expect when I'm drowning in pain or fear during trauma work. It's about me wanting to understand the boundaries so I don't violate them and piss him off. It's about experiencing safe touch for once in my life and trying to come to terms with accepting touch from others when I'm in pain and allow them near enough to comfort me. To not feel all alone while I process the bad stuff like I was the first time around.

There is a lot to this.

Thanks everyone. I need some sleep now.

Hugs to all
TN

Hey TN

Hopefully you are resting and re-charging your batteries as I type this. I am imagining that you are and am sending over to you a warm positive virtual blanket - like some extra sunshine for you to help ease your pain.

I have a no touch T. We don't even shake hands or pat on the shoulder or anything. That totally works for me but I don't know how she would react if I asked for a hug (Ug though I never would). I do think that part of the healing is about having another human being witness your pain and grief, that you are not alone for that part. And I think Ts have a tough job in those moments - sometimes with my lovelyT she gets it wrong - one session I was dragging up some god awful feelings of pain and grief and she wasn't quite present enough and then said something off about how could I soothe my inner child in her pain - made me feel totally abandoned and I went veering off till the next sesssion and I told her how angry I was with her for this lack of care. Sorry - waffling on - what I mean to say is your last para here seems pretty important to me - and I am convinced you and your t will find a way to make sure you inner girl does get what she needs as your process all the pain. From everything you've said about him, he does sound like a really excellent therapist. Doesn't take away from the pain right now. Be kind and gentle to yourself - you've been amazingly brave. And you so do have a good heart TN. Even though I've only known you a short period of time it's obvious.

Hugs xxx

Hm it sounds to me TN like you’re somehow accepting your T’s boundary about touch? That it’s not as fraught or painful or relationship ending as you might have feared after last session? That despite his apparent lack of understanding about what it means to you, you are nevertheless accepting that he’s not withholding it as some kind of punishment, or reserving it as a ‘reward’ for being a good client later down the track. And maybe his openness about making it about HIM, that he is the one uncomfortable with touch, allows you to see a little bit at least, that it’s nothing to do with you or your untouchability.

I have to admit that initially when I read your update I thought bad things about your T. I think he dealt with the whole issue really badly and said some pretty unempathic things – like – telling you you brought up the question badly!!!!!! and telling you how you ‘should’ have broached it!!!!!!! I also don’t like the implications of that comment, whereby he’s making a distinction between ‘you’ and ‘your’ inner little girl. As if he would consider comforting the little girl, but not you the adult... but that’s my personal beef so you may not feel the same.

I do still get the impression that he’s not really a touchy feely type of therapist, and if I remember rightly didn’t you say his modality was along psychoanalytic/psychodynamic lines? So he’s much more likely to push you to difficult and painful places than to want to comfort you and make you feel better. Which doesn’t make him a bad T at all, just that you need to decide how much touch is important to your healing and whether maybe you could feel his caring eventually despite the absence of reassuring words and physical touch? Lol I do love that he admitted his responses to you in the last session were piss poor . Your T sounds to me like someone who can easily take any negative stuff you throw at him, personally I think that counts for a lot in the good T stakes.

I hope you are doing ok now and after getting some rest will be able to sift through all the things that have come up because of this issue. And I hope you do go to your session on Monday!

((((( TN )))))

LL

(((((TN))))))

Been thinking about your situation this weekend. Your T only said that no one touches him. He didn't say that he doesn't use touch himself in a therapeutic way. So, I'm not sure you have a lost cause here. And, not only that, he did leave it all open for discussion in terms of pointing out that you didn't ask how he would comfort you when the little girl was terrified.

Where I would feel a little vulnerable in terms of not being able to reach out and hug someone when I needed to be comforted, is in feeling powerless, that the power then lies with them - to touch us when we need to be comforted. And, so maybe what's going on here is that he is getting you to verbalize this, verbalize when you need to be comforted. So, instead of you reaching out to hug someone when you are the one that needs the hug, he might be teaching you to ask for someone to reach out to you?

The other thing I was thinking as that when there is a hug, each hugger is both a giver and a receiver. Your therapy is about you. And so you should be the receiver. You hugging your T would only benefit him if he needed to be touched. And it's not about your T. So, really there is no reason for you to touch him. That's not to say that you aren't also getting something out of giving him a hug. Like, for instance, last Christmas when I gave my T the *hope* ornament, part of me was really grateful that he has given me hope, that he is the first person in a long time that has given me hope and I wanted to tell him that I appreciated it. But, there was a small part of me also that was hoping he would love me because of it. In my twisted mind, I had decided that the *hope* message was symbolic and important to him and by giving him the *hope* ornament, I was acknowledging and validating that message for him and tapping into that and he would love me for it. See what I mean?

Therapeutically, the patient is the only one who should get the neuropsychological benefits of being touched, kwim?

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there. You get a lot more touch already than I've ever gotten from my T. We do not shake hands. He's never patted me on the shoulder. The only touch we've had is the recent touch when he held my hand. That to me says, my T is VERY uptight AND your T is already using touch to make a connection with you and for your benefit. IMHO, given that he does and will use touch, there would be no need to hug him as therapy should be all about you.

Good luck tomorrow. Hope that Thanksgiving Day card turned out okay.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

TN- believe me, I know how hard it is to come to accept and love yourself- my input had more to do really, with wondering if there is a chance that through re-experiencing within the boundaries of a safe relationship where you are the focus- as you should be- the painful reality of not getting a hug- you may come to realize how painful and unfair that really was- on an emotional level- and then come to love yourself, and have compassion for that gentle little girl inside? But if you get the hug- that little girl may feel comforted, which would be equally valuable, and healing.. just some thoughts.

Love,

BB

Hi Gang, sorry I've not been around much. I seem to find myself in this strange wordless place where the pain reaches a level of being non-verbal. I have tried to distract myself these few days (and believe me there is NO lack of housework, shopping and homework to help with that!) hoping I can relax into some kind of clarity about where such intense pain came from... is this more than a hug or no hug situation? I do not think so. I know it's more than that.

Basically, I think my T and I got into somewhat of a childhood re-enactment. I was scared and needing comfort in the way of physical touch and he denied it in a scary, depriving way as would my parents. When I was "in trouble" as a child or teen I was harshly punished and NO ONE ever came to me to soothe me or apologize or even just discuss with me what happened. Probably where my attachment got screwed up. And so I learned to deny my need for this kind of connection and later on it got to the point where when I was in pain I would hide, or try to become invisible or I would do things to send others fleeing from me because I would refuse and deprive myself of any comfort or help. And so when I finally found the courage and displayed an attachment behavior in wanting nurturing and touch my T reacted by getting defensive, refusing, telling me all about HIS feelings and HIS boundaries and why HE has this rule, etc. instead of putting the focus on me... yeah just like when I was a child.

What he should have said in a non-fearful defensive way was

"I do not feel that hugs are helpful clinically or theroretically and don't feel they are appropriate in our therapy. I know you feel you need this nurturing when you are scared or in pain so let's talk about what I CAN offer you instead and work out a solution to help you with this to help you with the difficult work ahead of us. I realize how much courage and strength it took you to even approach this topic knowing how you were so hurt by your last therapist and I appreciate that you are willing to talk about it. It shows how far you have come in that last year at this time you could not even look at me or see me and now you feel safe enough to discuss this topic. I know it must have been difficult to hear me say no. How did that make you feel?"

You know talk TO me not AT me. Show some compassion for what I never had, show some understanding of how damn hard this was to bring up and at least try to take away some of the pain of hearing NO. I also think that seeing my calm, consistent, smart T at such a loss and handling this SO badly really scared me and made me wonder if the person I have been seeing for a year is really real or just a well-rehearsed manequin of a T and when he gets a hard question he falls apart and hurts me. My trust has truly been shaken and my confidence that he can "handle" me. He keeps telling me that I am not too much but evidently last week I WAS too much.

Annie, thank you for that sweet note and especially in sharing some of what happens in your therapy. You know, I didn't touch oldT for one year until I extended my hand at Christmas time to wish him a nice holiday. It was hard waiting a year for that but when I touched it him made me really believe he was real. I needed that so badly. I know you have no touch at all and I get a handshake and a pat so I should be happy with that. I do think in the end it was more about his reaction than not being able to hug. I am trying to recharge for tomorrow's session. I am not even sure if I am seeing him twice this week because darn Thanksgiving falls onto my Thursday session.

Thanks Monte, for validating that at times it just feels like The Most Important Thing. Hope you are okay.

LL...I have not really accepted his boundary but I really have no choice and that is what makes me so angry. I hate being backed into a corner and that is what happened when oldT abandoned me and this discussion has reawakened a lot of the trauma of that situation, hence the amount of pain involved. I really wished he had not made it personal to him or to me and just a clinical practice decision. Knowing he does not like hugs or feeling uncomfortable hugging just reinforces to me that he is a cold and detached person with no empathy which is what I accuse him of all the time. And putting it back onto me, such as I am violating boundaries, or asking too much, or being too needy is damaging to me. And then when he said I brought up the question badly... OMG... I thought I was very clear and unemotional and just asking for discussion of boundaries. Then when he told me his boundaries are very clear I wanted to throw something heavy at his head!! Yeah they were clear as MUD. How would I know he had a hugging boundary or touch boundary when HE initiated touch with ME? We never ever had a discussion about his touch boundaries.

Thanks for the hugs LL. Yeah he's strong enough to take what I throw at him but I have to come to accept he will never be touchy feely at all and I just don't know how having a T like that will enable me to tell him the things I need to in order to heal. Right now, I'm scared of him which is playing right back into my disorganized attachment... the person I need to go to as my safe attachment figure is the one who is scaring me right now.

Liese, you make some good points. One which is that much of this is that feeling of being powerless as I discussed above to LL. It's that HE can touch me but I cannot touch him. He decides how this works and I don't get to say anything except to say no and then deprive myself of what little I do get from him. That only hurts me. But I don't think he's doing it so that I learn to reach out to others for the hug. They would not be attachment figures so it would not be the same experience.

The other point is that hugging could be both a giving and receiving experience. Maybe he does not want to receive anything from me and is afraid it will feel to me like I'm giving something of myself to him in a physical way. But honestly, I don't think it's as deep as all that...he just does not like hugging people... end of story. Of course, this does not address the other things I'd like like a pat on the hand or arm sometimes when I'm struggling.

Beebs...good and interesting thoughts. I just don't know. I don't really have an answer to that. Intellectually, I know how painful and unfair it was for that little kid to be left alone in pain all the time but I cannot go near that emotionally and I need to feel safe enough with T to do that. Right now my trust in him has been badly shaken. So while it may be possible, it's going to take some time.

TN

((((TN)))))

It sounds like this has really hurt you so much. I find that I too don't react as well when my T falls into "explanation mode" as opposed to just accepting what I'm saying and perhaps asking me more about what I'm feeling. I think it makes me feel invalidated when he does that. And I struggle so much with feelings of powerlessness too. There are so many times when others make the rules and we can't seem to get what we need. That was so great that you could see there was an enactment going on. I'm not so sure that adults realize how powerless kids feel. There is so much that you don't have control over as a kid. Even as adults, we are powerless over so much but not nearly as much as when we are kids.

I'm finding it all a bit hard to grasp but I'm starting to learn that if I own my need and validate it myself, then suddenly, even if it doesn't get met, I haven't given away my power. Because there is nothing embarrassing or wrong about me being a normal human being with normal needs trying to get them met. I think the loss of power comes from looking for validation from the other, not necessarily from not getting the need met. For me, it's when I ask others to validate the need itself when it hurts so much. Our identities are so wrapped up in our unmet needs. The need = us. Invalidate the need and you're invalidating us. Validate the need and you validate us. But if we can separate ourselves from our needs, then suddenly, if the need isn't validated or if the need isn't met, it's not US that has been rejected. And we can validate our own needs even if the other doesn't validate it. And that's where our power really is.


I didn't mean that your T was trying to teach you to reach out to others. I meant that he was trying to teach you to reach out to him. And not necessarily for a hug BUT for comfort when you need it. Which might be a pat on the shoulder or something along those lines. Or something entirely different. But you'll never know how he might want to comfort you if you don't ask.

I don't know what your FOO was like but if it was anything like my FOO, it was all about your parents. My needs were there but they were squashed time and time again. And, so I learned that in order to get what I wanted, I had to be sneaky or at least not verablize what I want and just do it anyway. There was no give and take with my parents. I was going to be the person they wanted me to be, a churchgoing, cardcarrying republican. Couldn't have my own opinions. And who wouldn't be mad living like that? It's a very unhealthy way to have a relationship. And that's the template I carry with me. And, so, a lot of what I'm learning with my T is the negotiating process. Actually verbalizing what I want instead of trying to get it behaviorally. We discuss things. It hurts. He doesn't always give me what I want right away. I'm learning how to take my needs and his needs into account. It's more of a balance, a healthier way of relating. And this is what you are learning with your T. It hurts so much because on an emotional level, you are expecting things to turn out the way they did with your parents. But it won't turn out that way. Because he's a good T and the whole point of therapy is the corrective emotional experience.

Your T has been a T for a long time. And he used to go to court a lot to testify?? on behalf of abused children? Maybe he was physically abused as a child and that's part of why he has an issue with it. Maybe not. But my guess is, even though he seemed thrown by your request, that he already had his own thoughts really worked out re: touch. It might be much more complicated than he just doesn't like a hug. It might be deeper than that. But he just might not be going into it with you. It might not be appropriate for you to know. Or, it might simply be just that he doesn't like to hug or doesn't think it's appropriate.

As far as the giving and receiving are concerned, I meant both that, in therapy, he doens't need to receive and you don't need to give at all. He's the giver and you are the receiver. He might not only want you to give on a physical level but also on an emotional level because receiving a hug could also make us feel cared for. And giving a hug could make us feel like we are caring for the other. It might even be a need I have that I'm projecting onto them and not really a need they have. It might be one of my needs. Like for instance, wanting to hug your T might be your way of behaviorally trying to get past the discomfort you feel that your T is cold and detached. Your T wouldn't be a T if he was cold and detached. So, maybe that's a key for you.

So, this whole therapy business is sorting out which needs are yours and yours alone. Separating your psyche from his. Sometimes when my T didn't react in a more sensitive way and it hurt me, I thought he was trying to embarrass me. I told him that recently and he told me that he would never try to embarrass me. The hurt is from the past. He's just trying to help me discover where I end and he begins. And your T is trying to do the same. Remember, you hired him to help you. He's on your side.

I hope I didn't pontificate too much. I also hope this isn't too convoluted. Good luck tomorrow.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

(((TN))) I am sorry you are hurting and angry right now. I was angry when I read about your T's saying you worded the question badly. You were opening a discussion, a very difficult one, and you did so with much more clarity and directness than I would have ever have been able to. It sounds to me as if it was his issue that he got hung up on the hug (as it is obviously something he is personally not comfortable with) instead of what was behind the hug. That said, no T is perfect and I do feel like he is trying to move to what is behind this issue and explore together what would be helpful when that little girl inside is hurting and needs to be comforted. I understand it's impossible to believe he will comfort her at all, because it feels like he pushed her away or else ran away from her. I remember feeling that way so intensely. And it makes me sad that the little child who was just learning to find it safe enough to reach out for comfort feels like she has been rebuffed again. But, I absolutely don't feel like it is a lost cause, because I think he wants to interact with her, make her feel safe, cared for, and comforted. But it is something that a sympathetic adult you may need to work out with him without involving her until it is sorted out. That is how it had to be done on my end, at least, because there was too much hurt and sense of danger to let anyone small and vulnerable participate in those discussions for a long time after we ruptured. Their access to T was very restricted for months after, even after knowing what he could offer. But, if you can ride through this and work it out with T together, I think there can be so much growth, both internally and in your therapeutic relationship. I know, however, that is yucky and painful and feels so impossible at times. It took me cognitively overriding my flight response to stay through this stuff when it happened to me, this sense of having been shoved away when I allowed myself to need again.

I remember feeling for so long...I just never will get to feel safe and close at the same time. That being alone in my pain was the only option. But, it's really not. Whether or not your T will be there in the one way you want most, I think he will find away to help you feel close and connected, to tolerate intimacy and vulnerability, then to enjoy it. I think, if you help him know how you are feeling when you are pain, if you cast out to him in that sense of aloneness, he will try very hard to show you that you are not alone...that he is with you, even within the constraints of his own boundaries.

Though we don't really "know" one another, I care deeply for you from afar. Reading this thread has continually pulled at me inside. As a mom, I wish *I* could just give that little girl a hug and help her to feel safe, loved, accepted, understood. This is the closest I can come to compassion for myself (or those little parts inside me), but as I hold Boo, comfort her, discipline her with love, apologize to her when I fail, try to be a mom worthy of the gift she is in my life, I feel hurt for all these kids who are still trapped inside many of us, because they lost the chance to know those things. So, a big long ((((((hug))))))) to that girl and you right now. You were always, always worthy of that sort of care, truly. You were never untouchable, unlovable. For some mysterious reason, you grew up under the influence of people who did not know how to love, touch and be safe to you, and it was never because of something you did or something intrinsically wrong or damaged. I'm sorry it hurts so much right now. And I'm sorry if nothing I say can help you, because I have been there too.

It's really late now but I wanted to thank you Liese and Yaku for the hugs, good wishes and helpful supportive comments.

I'll check in tomorrow after my session.

Love
TN

Hey TN. Big hugs - hope today's session helps and you reach a less painful place wiht your t.

Yaku I really empathise with your wanting to give TN's little girl a big hug and tell her how amazing and special she is. I think a lot of us have those wounded little us parts and when we hear each others is makes us want to reach out and soothe them, as we wish we could be soothed. I am positive that with the help of our wonderful ts we will get there. But in the meantime I'm sending out love and light to both your and TN's little girls. Hang on in there.

Liese - I really liked your post. Made a lot of sense to me. xx

Hugs xxxx

Would just like to add my voice to those wishing you well today and wondering how it went.

Big hugs to you TN, albeit cyber ones

LL

DF thanks for the hugs and wishes.

LL thanks for remembering me and for checking in and for the hugs

Annie and Yaku my little one thanks you for the hugs and for the nice things you say.

Liese, your post was helpful and gave me some things to think over.

Monte, thanks for sharing that story with me. I hope that I will at some point really feel Ts love and care coming through to me from another conduit, but, it just still really hurts that he won't allow the touch I feel I need. And it also feels impossible that this will ever happen for me. It's just something I am having trouble even imagining and that could be also because I don't/can't believe he could ever feel that way about me.

This seems to be stirring up a grief that feels horrible and I don't know what to do with it or where to put it. It just feels like that childhood deprivation all over again and I really don't want a re-do of that. It has also stirred up the grief and trauma from oldT and losing him... because I guess this IS a loss of sorts so it brings back the most recent and painful loss which was oldT.

And SO... onto my session today.

To be honest I was so scared and emotionally frozen inside that I don't remember a lot of it. Most of my energy was spent trying to stop shaking and to stay present.

I know we shook hands when I walked in. No one was in there before me and I think he just had lunch. I put my stuff down and he walked over and got my blanket for me and closed the shades. He commented on how well my scarf matched the lining of my jacket which I had tossed on the chair next to mine.

I am still having a really hard time looking at him and he is not even bothering to ask me to look at him anymore. Maybe he just gave up on doing that. I think it got a little better at the end of our conversation because I do remember his face. The way he was looking at me with such concern like he really wanted me to take in what he was saying to me. Too bad I lost a lot of that due to being so scared of him. But I can see his face. And he moved in closer to me and spent most of the session sitting close.

The first thing I did was to give him a short letter from the inner kid who was clamoring to butt into the conversation. She explained that it was all her fault for wanting the hug or the pat on the hand and the comfort during the scary stuff and that she is bad and always wants too much and needs too much. That she thinks he is okay even if he looks scary and mad a lot and that she does not want him to leave us. And then she made him a "hand turkey" for Thanksgiving. She said she was giving him her hand without any touch. (Can I just add here that this all feels really stupid and embarrassing and I hope it helps someone because it's going to be hard to leave this part in)

T seemed pleased to get the letter and drawing and he asked when she wrote it. He then said she was very brave and braver than I think and that she was reaching out to him. He kept asking me to talk about the child's needs but I could not do it. I told him I don't know how. He said that I have to learn to listen to her but I don't want to. I hate that part of me and this is about as far as acknowledging it as I can go. He said that if we don't address her needs directly, then they will come out sideways and get twisted and will also contaminate my needs.

I just kept telling him I can't do this and that I am scared and don't want to talk about it. He was speaking to me in a soft voice which was soothing but at the same time he was pushing me pretty hard and I got annoyed with him and told him he was pouring salt on my wounds. He said, well then tell me to stop and I told him I find that hard to do because then I will upset him and that is too scary for me.

We went around in circles a fair amount of the time and what I do also remember is that he apologized again and took responsibility for his awful response to me last Monday. He said he was responding to a graduate student and a theoretically posed question and so I got a clinical response that did not really address the nurturing needs of the child. He said he should have known better and should have realized where the question was coming from. That this was HIS responsibility to do and not mine to explain it to him. I felt like he had spent some time thinking about what went wrong with us and how to mend it.

He did acknowledge that I emailed him and reached out on Thursday night... which I did using the excuse of providing him some insurance info... but I did say I was not sure how we could work this through. And he simply responded that we would be able to work through this. He still feels that way and that we need to keep talking about it... but honestly, it drains everything out of me to discuss it and I am still running from a real and honest discussion because I am still too scared. I also told him that I don't even really know what I want, I was just trying to open the topic for discussion to see what was available if I should need it.

He asked me how I felt when he shook my hand or patted me. I told him that I don't even FEEL the handshake, it does not get through to me. But that the pat felt good, it felt nice and it was reassurance. BUT... I said that was at the END of the session not in the middle of processing stuff... and of course then I could not tell him what I wanted/needed during trauma processing... mainly because I was not in a place to hear NO again. I think I would have run out of there screaming. What I think he was trying to have me understand is that my needs are not endless or too much. That I am not too much for him. Once again I had accused him of looking scared and defensive and he told me he was very surprised by the question and unprepared as it seemed to come out of the blue. Not for me LOL since it's been on my mind for months! I didn't say that but was thinking it.

I did tell him that I thought we had entered into a little reenactment of my childhood and he agreed. I also told him that seeing him react SO out of character for what I knew of him for the past year had shaken my trust. He said he made a mistake and that one thing held against ALL the other good stuff should not shake my trust. That it would be okay. To look at the entire picture before catastrophizing (which I am very good at). Oh and then I also told him that asking for touch was nurturing for me and an attachment behavior and he is encouraging my attachment yet the minute I ask for something he goes crazy (which made him laugh because he was not "going crazy") but I told him that this was not good for my growing attachment in that he was my attachment figure and when I'm in pain I should move towards him for comfort ... yet he was the one who was causing the distress so I could not move towards him. He did acknowledge the bind that put me in.

Anyway the session ended and he told me I did well and then I put away my blanket and walked over to get my stuff and he put out his hand for a shake and we did and I smiled because it was a very STRONG handshake that I could definitely feel and he held my hand for jusssst a bit longer than usual. I'm sure he did that on purpose so I WOULD feel that handshake and then he patted my shoulder and we made a minute of small talk about Thanksgiving as I was leaving.

The really sucky part is that darn Thanksgiving is on Thursday which is my session day. I feel really bereft at not having my session and it hurt that he didn't even mention it at all. Last year he gave me Monday-Wednesday that week. I guess he had no openings and I didn't mention it being unsure of how to address it. In fact, I had really planned to talk about how missing the session was making me feel (scared again) but I never had the chance. So going a week when it's been so hard to hold onto the relationship is lousy timing. To add another thing to the mix is that Thanksgiving was so wretchedly awful for me last year and I was sobbing in bed just hours before my guests were to arrive for dinner. I could barely function and had so much to do and then.... it started to snow. That truly did me in that day as snow is a strong trigger for missing oldT. I am once again in an annniversary cycle of important dates relating to oldT and it's freaking me out and I really needed to talk to my T about this on Wednesday.

Oh well... it is what it is.... I'm sorry this is so disjointed and rambly, probably that's because it's how my mind feels right now.

Thanks for listening and caring. You all have been wonderful through this.
TN

Thank you for your update, TN.Your T really wants to work through this with you. slowly, you will feel less scared, I think, as you get more used to talking about the feelings you have around the hug issue.

I think you were incredibly brave to offer him what you did- kudos to you for doing that, and then posting about it. I'm so impressed by how you keep reaching out even in the midst of so much sadness and pain- you have courage in you. I really am so touched when I think of how much you are hurting- but still trying, still going, still reaching out and trying to be understood, and to understand.

I hope that you have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Much love,

Beebs

I don't know Beebs about being so brave. I guess I think if I keep at it that somehow the pain will diminish and I can find some kind of peace with it... with my T not wanting to hug me, with not having the safe touch I should have had as a child with the loss. I don't know where this is all going to end and most times I'm just confused.

Thanks for your support.

TN

TN I’m sorry you didn’t come away from your session with any kind of resolution . I do want to say that I think you’re being very brave and strong by not cutting and running, but are keeping on going, prepared to work through this.

From the way you described T, it sounds like he is fully there for you and is in no way repulsed by your needs and wants.

I find it interesting that he thought your question came ‘out of the blue’ and that he was therefore unprepared for it. (Doesn’t a lot of what we say in therapy come a propos nothing though, so it’s odd that he seemed taken aback by it?) It makes sense when he said that he was responding to a graduate student in a clinically theoretical way – that would account for the way it came across as being oblivious of your feelings. It also indicates that he is perfectly capable (and willing) to address your needs on different levels at different times, so perhaps during-session touch is not entirely out of the question.

I know you can’t remember a lot of your session (I get that regularly!) but I gather you didn’t actually discuss point blank whether there was any option of further touch? This is such a painful issue for you so I guess you’ll be sorting through it for many sessions to come. The fact that it’s tapping into older pain, including OldT, is maybe not a bad thing (I’m trying to see the potential positives here!) it means that you have the opportunity now with a safe and caring T to work through all those painful feelings instead of having to stuff them away and live on top of it all.

I’m sorry you are hurting so much and yeah it’s lousy timing that you miss your Thursday session – I’m also sorry he didn’t offer you an alternative. Perhaps it’s not too late to see if he can fit you in tomorrow?

But please post here for support to get you through until your next session anyway (not that I need to remind you, but just wanted you to know you can count on us to be here )

LL

((((((TN))))))

I agree with everyone else that you were so brave. And that's what I've done when I've hit a rough spot with my T, just kept going and eventually things smooth out and even get stronger.

If you look at it from a learning theory persective and everything is paired, right? You have a need, you ask for it to get met, it's denied and you have this awful emotional pain because in the past it was all paired with awful betrayal and abandonment. But this time it's not. And you and T are working it out and talking it out together and it hurts but it's all good. He's not going to make fun of you or belittle you or abandon you. He didn't say no to hurt you. He said no because it was his own boundary. I know it doesn't FEEL like there is a difference but there is a difference.

He probably forgot to bring up the missed session on Thursday because of all this other stuff going on. Maybe he can fit you in? It would be difficult to skip, especially with all that's been going on.

Hope this Thanksgiving is a little better than last year.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

(((TN))) I know you can make it through with your T, but I'm so sorry it has to be so painful in the meantime, especially at such a triggering time of year. I'm also so sorry you don't have a second session this week. I hope it goes quickly for you.

quote:

I guess I think if I keep at it that somehow the pain will diminish and I can find some kind of peace with it... with my T not wanting to hug me, with not having the safe touch I should have had as a child with the loss.

hello, TN...I have to say, that I really seriously doubt that your T doesn't *want* to hug you. In fact I think his "no" has a lot more to do with the fact that he most likely wants to hug you, than that he does not. I think that if your T has issues with hugs, it is most likely because they represent something powerful for him and he is most likely afraid that he would be using you to get his needs met, rather than meeting yours if he were to hug you. Touch can be a very powerfully evocative thing for men, and it is possible that *he* is not able to get past his own needs in this regard, and so is more comfortable not touching clients. it's especially instructive that he has only hugged clients who were *leaving.* I think that by telling you that, he was most likely admitting that his own needs entering into the equation could no longer harm those clients, since they were *leaving* so he allowed it. It is is similar to his boundary where he will not accept food gifts. I am certain he would love them.

What hurts, is that he is not bale to get past himself in this regard and be able to accept things from you without making it about him and his needs- and I think that is the painful boundary (his limitations and that he has needs that he must keep at bay within therapy as a human person) that you are running into. It hurts to think that our T is not invincible, that they would be capable of using and hurting us to meet their own needs- but that he will not- refuses to, in fact- even at the cost of hurting you and seeming *bad* or cruel to you- shows his goodness. That's real self-sacrifice.

anyway- I hope this helps not hurts.

Love,

Beebs

quote:

I have to say, that I really seriously doubt that your T doesn't *want* to hug you. In fact I think his "no" has a lot more to do with the fact that he most likely wants to hug you, than that he does not. I think that if your T has issues with hugs, it is most likely because they represent something powerful for him and he is most likely afraid that he would be using you to get his needs met, rather than meeting yours if he were to hug you.

Beebs, no worries. You could never hurt anyone. Thanks for your response. Your quote made me smile and made me think. Yesterday T said that sometimes touch can be eroticized and that is why it is such a sensitive issue. For me I DO NOT have any erotic feelings for him at all. It was the child who is scared and wants to hold someone's hand during processing or who wants that quick 2 second hug before skipping off back to the real world.

I am sure of what I need and want in this case. Even with oldT who I had MUCH stronger feelings for and truly loved, when he hugged me there were NO erotic feelings on my end of things. It just felt safe, warm, grounding, regulating, connecting and accepting of me and my needs. I NEVER EVER thought... oh good he hugged me now we can move this to the next step in a sexual way. Never. When he hugged me I was 5 again and feeling safe with a parental person/attachment figure. That was what I needed.

And I really do understand on some level that maybe part of this is that he is doing something for me to keep me safe. But I cannot even comprehend that he would have any feelings for me at all aside from curiosity as a patient and frustration at how much I can be "challenging". That is why I had to smile at the thought that he would even WANT to hug me at all.

You know, it was exactly this week last year when we had a big disruption over him not allowing me to bring him food. I guess it came up because I was cooking for Thanksgiving dinner last year. It took me a good while to accept that boundary but he explained it in a way that was all about me, how he needed to stop me taking care of the T and that he needed to take care of me instead and I had to learn this. And he said someday when I was far enough along he would be happy to accept food and that he would really love to taste my cooking but not now... because we had some work to do first. He handled it well and I WAS able to eventually accept that he did it for my good and he was caring for me in this way. But the hug just feels different to me and because he made it more about him when I first introduced the topic.

I know, even the most loving parents have to say no sometimes to the kids, I certainly do. But I never say no to a hug

Thanks
TN

(((TN)))

I'm sorry that you are missing a second session with your T this week and going in to a season of triggers. I think you were very brave to share with your T how your child felt. I spent my session yesterday saying very little about my request for us to sit closer and even though T asked me questions about it I had no answers. I'm also envious of the fact that you know what you want and why you want it. I can't figure out if I want a pat on the shoulder or my hand held when I cry or a hug. I don't have any erotic feelings for my T either although I'm afraid I won't be able to let go.

I hope you have a peaceful holiday weekend.

I have a hunch that your T is going to be doing a lot of internal work on this touch issue, just like my psychologist had to do. My P said he had NEVER touched a client in 23 years of working as a P. for a whole year we wrestled with this problem of him saying no and my frightened child longing to even just hold onto his sleeve. I handed him books and articles. I relayed conversations with other therapists. I told him he was a silly man, more than once, when my child got more dominant. I wept and howled and had so many sleepless nights over this. I cannot believe how long it went on for. It would come up and then go on teh back burner for month or so and then come up again.

And eventually my P had to recognise that he was genuinely retraumatizing my child by re enacting what had happened in my child hood, I was not touch affectionately. I was only abused or hurt. And he was refusing to touch me affectionately or even kindly or even empathetically.

I truly think your T has too much integrity to just keep to an 'old rule' on this one. But like my P, he may need time to ponder, reflect, take it to supervision etc. Don't give up. Please don't give up. My husband told my P infront of me and my best friend " Let S educate you on this one, she is just such a tactile heart led person, she knows all about hugs and hand holding and she can teach you all you might need to know about touch and the safety and healing qualities of touch in a therapeutic relationship when dealing with the pain of the lost child. "

Anyway, my heart bleeds for you, knowing how painful this stage of talking and discussing it and feeling like you are not getting anywhere on the hug stance. My P told me he was going to renew my contract for another year, on Friday and I was so happy I nearly skipped on the spot but instead shook his hand very strongly and then said

"be warned, I am so close to hugging you. You need to do some 'how to handle being hugged by S' work as it is going to happen one day and I don't want you not being prepared."

He laughed and said, " I would be fine with you giving me a hug."

Darn it, I was walking out the door by then, and lost my chance!!!!!!!!

Which means that one day - one time - sometime probably quite soon, I am going to hug him and he will have to hug me back

YEa!!!!!!!!!


And that will be a red letter day for him too, after 23 years of working and NOT doing that.

Take care and be gentle on him whilst he works it out for himself.

It is true that he made his response to you about him- that was a huge mistake, imo.

I wasn't trying to say that I think he thought that a hug could be eroticized for you- I was thinking that he might think a hug could become eroticized (even unconsciously) for him. You have a lot of respect for him, you fear him to some extent, he is clearly protective of you, and of your child inside- he likes you, and finds working with you enjoyable- all of those emotions could easily make a hug a powerful experience for him, as a man. I think it would really feel good for him, to give you a hug, in a protective way. I know you find that hard to believe though.

Thanks for being so sweet,

BB

quote:

So maybe i seem like the devil's advocate to some, but truly, True North, I think more about your strengths than weaknesses. I think what you are doing is extremely difficult work, and I see you as a person who can work through this. This is very difficult therapy. I see you as a success. I am just framing this differently in hopes it will help.

Thanks xoxo for that. You make some good points in grieving for what was denied as a child and if you get it then how do we work through the deprivation. I understand that intellectually. Emotionally I'm a bit shaky on the whole thing. I forget... does your T allow hugs? How do you handle the physical aspect and how does that impact what you are grieving? I am trying to learn of other perspectives on this and how one comes to accept lack of comfort touch. I phrase it this way because I do have some touch... the handshake and the pat on the shoulder. I wonder what my T would do if during some trauma processing I asked to "shake" his hand??

And I would have to agree that it gives one a sense of power to have a T do something for you that they don't do with others. And I happen to know that oldT never hugged any other client and that he rarely emailed with anyone else, at least to the extent that we emailed.

And I do know that my current T allows things with me that he does not with other patients. All little things and nothing really significant.

incognito... thanks for the wishes. I'm sorry you had another difficult session. Have you been working on that puzzle?

Sadly, thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad to hear that your P renewed your contract for anther year! Can you even believe it's been over a year since we both were abandoned? So much has happened since then.

Beebs...you are a sweetie. and yes, I think our hugging could be a powerful experience that may be better not happening... at least at this point in time. Maybe we just need to know each other better for that.

thanks friends!
TN

((((TN)))))

I apologize in advance if you mentioned this but I didn't see it, did you give him the card? Did he like it?

For me, personally, I crave physical comfort. Whether or not I will get it from my T is another matter. I might have to accept that it's just something I can't have right now from anyone. He hasn't been clear on the issue. Do I need it? Maybe. Will I die without it? Maybe, eventually. Does it hurt that I don't have it right now? You betcha. What am I learning about physical comfort now? I didn't have it as a child and that really stunk. I didn't/don't have it from my marriage and that really stinks too. Okay, I've learned all my lessons. Can I have it now? Please?

Sorry, TN, I know this is not helping you.

xoxo

Love,

Liese

P.S. I'm editing this to add that yes, I went back and remember now about the hand turkey. I think that was very thoughtful and touching.

Oh Liese I'm sad to hear that. Although I have no wish for a hug from my t (and actually imagining her doing so makes me feel slightly nauseous - talked about that today in therapy actually. Don't think she thinks that's so great a reaction!) I am a v huggy person with friends and sisters so would miss that v much. Know it's not the same but sending you a big virtual cuddle.

Awww Annie thanks for the virtual hug. It's not so bad I was just feeling sorry for myself. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

Xoxo

Liese

I hesitate to post but I took oxox's comments about manipulation therapy into my therapist and to a woman who is actually attempting to give me some of what I missed as a kid (care, attention, kindness and cuddles virtually) and my therapist said that the comments show:
[sorry oxox if this is hard to hear, he would not obviously say this TO you in case it hurt to hear] a lack of understanding of the issues of attachment and reveal a defensive nature - someone who is scared of allowing THEM selves to feel the pain that would occur if loved and held in the ways they actually probably deeply crave but are too unable to admit and the woman friend said:

quote:

well it doesn't stand up as an argument even.

when someone begins to taste what they missed, they don't think, 'fantastic...this was worth the wait. now i am just fine.'

they see even more clearly the pain of not having and the emotional pain is even greater but made more bearable by also experiencing feeling loved.
it is nonsense to say there would be no emotions to work through.

you can't make up for the years of loss and awful memories of childhood but you can repair and lay foundations that should have been laid. you can help to change what a person feels at the core of their being.

it doesn't sound like the person has a great depth of understanding about attachment theory.

they wrote
."....how can you work through the feelings about what you were denied as a child if you are given what was missing???........"

i would answer that you would be in a much better position to do so if you are made more complete as a person by the love of another.

who cares if it's called therapy or not. if it isn't therapy and brings healing then we could scrap therapy and have committed relationships instead.
i often call what i do ...therapy...but the bottom line is i am being mum to the real person inside of the person I am with. It is a real commitment.

I have only been 'allowed' to touch my psychologist from a few weeks ago and you know what? I HURT. I hurt SO MUCH it is like a whole dam has broken. Once I truly felt his care, through being able to reach out a hand to him and have him let me hold his hand, or often just a couple of fingers - so young does this part of me feel - then it is like the bit that I have tried to keep away from all these years - is OUT!

Wailing, sobbing, inconsolable, angry that I NEVER had parents who adored me and cherished me and loved me unconditionally. If feels like once I experienced that which I never had, the catharsis has begun, the huge well of buried pain and anger is now moving and I am - darn it - feeling it.

Also what is interesting and what my psychologist is noting, is that I am now very free in that room. I pull my chair closer to him to read over his shoulder when he is reading something, I sit on the floor if I need to, I am AT EASE with him as a hurting child needs to be. I feel safe with him. And I know if I start to collapse inwards, shutting down, I can wave a hand around and he places his very safe and very strong and very kind feeling hand in it. and then it feels like I can go places inwardly, in my emotional dam of pain and agony that I had to bury as an 8 yr old - and it is all pouring out of me. And his steady hand literally steadies me as I look at it all and feel it all.

Outwardly it looks hell. Inwardly it feels like at last we are knowing the core. At one point I stropped like a three year old "I will ALWAYS want a kind mummy and a kind daddy. YOU had them and you STILL have them. I do not and it is NOT FAIR! And nothing, NOTHING you will say will make me believe any different. I WANT that too! I do!" and his eyes filled up and he said, slightly choking, " I wish I could make a miracle occur and you have that too, I sincerely and deeply wish I could, S. And you are absolutely right, it is not fair."

Later on he said that there are some things we can work with in this room, like chair work and see if it helps with this explosion of pain. He is such a nice man. I do love him. I think he reminds me of a labrador that I can whisper all my hurts to, and he hears and he is solid and he cares and he will never hurt me.

Whooops, TN, I have wandered off too much into my stuff, I guess I just so want to reassure you and encourage you. Your gut feeling is right here, I experienced it and I find it is true. I just wanted to say to all those people who believe if you get what you want, what you missed in childhood, (the hugs and the holding,) there will be no emotions to work with, it is not true. it is not true. The love and the care and the touch, bring to the surface what you truly did not have and you want it even more and realise how bad it was that you never had it when others just took all that for granted, and it has melted through my last defences. I am feeling the hurt that I sensibly and cleverly HAD to keep away from when I was 8, as no one was there for me. But now I have a sweet psychologist and he is there for me and I am feeling it and he is there. And so is his hand. And I feel his care.

I am in a large concert tonight, 1,000 coming to hear us sing the Messiah with full orchestra and soloists etc. Rehearsals all day. My hurting child is thrilled and my usual me is excited too.

Sorry TN, I am going to further hijack your thread because there are a couple of principles I want to address.

I think that this discussion has become muddied because there are really two different very important topics being discussed: the use of touch in therapy and boundaries in therapy.

My fear is that when discussing touch in therapy, that in each of us defending how our Ts handle touch, can become dogmatic in addressing the use of touch in therapy. It seems to me that it is clear that touch in therapy can be useful and healing as demonstrated by the experience of Monte, Sadly, Deepfried and STRM (if I am remembering correctly both DF and STRM do somatic work with their therapists). Shrinklady is a big proponent of the use of touch in therapy.

On the other hand, there are therapists who believe that touch needs to be restricted in therapy and I believe patients who find this approach healing. I think that myself and x0x0 would be good examples. Speaking only for myself (I don't want to put words in xoxo's mouth, especially as she speaks very well for herself ) my therapist withholding touch proved very important to me as a way of reaching and processing the feelings I needed to. In other words, the deep grief and deep desires that Sadly expressed sound very similar to those expressed my me. Although my therapist withheld any touch except a handshake, he was able to hear my feelings and affirm them, both how painful it was I had not had that and how wrong it was that I had not.

So my concern is that no one walk away from this discussion believing either that TOUCH IN THERAPY IS BAD. Nor do I want anyone walking away with the belief that TOUCH IN THERAPY IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO HEAL.

The use of touch in therapy is something that each therapeutic couple needs to decide and there are factors on both sides which determine what is the best way to work.

Which leads me to the second topic I think is at issue, which is boundaries. I think one of the important things we need to learn in therapy is how to respect others' boundaries. Our needs or desires do NOT give us the right to set someone else's boundaries, nor do their needs or desires give them a right to set ours. Our therapists have every right to set their boundaries where ever they wish to place them. So a therapist who has concerns about touch or is uncomfortable incorporating that into their practice, as TN's T has expressed, are correct to do so. Setting our boundaries involves a recognition of what we are capable of doing. This is even more important for a therapist as there is a deep need for them to be consistent about what they promise they can do. If they cannot continue to offer something, it is better it is not offered in the first place. They also need to take care that they do not do something uncomfortable about which resentment towards a client could build up.

So our choice is that we may recognize that a therapist has set their boundaries in such a way that makes them the wrong therapist for us. In which case, we may choose to find another therapist who is willing to work the way we find is necessary. But that does not make what either party is doing "wrong." The therapist is not wrong in where they set their boundaries, the client is not wrong in seeking another therapist.

For instance, my therapist does not do regular appointments. I, at one point, confronted him about this and told him I "needed" a regular appointment, that I worked better that way. He was quite willing to hear me and understood why I would want that, but he was also very clear that he knew himself well enough to know he couldn't work that way and he didn't want to offer something when he knew he would fail. I really had to think that one through and decide whether I could continue to work with him under those conditions. In my case, I decided that what I was getting out of the relationship was worth living with not having a regular appointment (in some ways it was good for me) but it would have been reasonable for me to decide "no go" and go find another therapist who was willing to give me a regular appointment (my first T worked that way.)

So TN to finally come back to you, I would hate to see you walk away from a healing relationship with what a therapist who seems to really know what he's doing because you cannot have what you want in this one area. In other words, I do not think your therapist withholding touch makes him a bad therapist. It may make him the wrong therapist for you, and I believe it is up to you to determine that, but to walk away insisting there is only ONE way to do that and anyone who doesn't practice this way is WRONG, seems to me to be misguided.

I am very glad that you have posted about this as I believe it is an important discussion. That we can see that touch can be included in the therapeutic relationship and be healing and that it can be withheld and be healing. In either case, what is really important is that we be willing to do what you have done, which is walk into therapy and talk about what we want, what we feel like we need and how we feel about getting it or not getting it. And what is important in our therapist is their willingness to hear all those feelings.

AG

I find myself in absolute agreement about what AG says here, both about touch and boundaries, and especially this as a good summary:

quote:

I am very glad that you have posted about this as I believe it is an important discussion. That we can see that touch can be included in the therapeutic relationship and be healing and that it can be withheld and be healing. In either case, what is really important is that we be willing to do what you have done, which is walk into therapy and talk about what we want, what we feel like we need and how we feel about getting it or not getting it. And what is important in our therapist is their willingness to hear all those feelings.

I feel like touch has been something that has really helped me in therapy, although I think there would have been other ways of T attending me that could have worked as well. We have already discussed that whenever there is a "no," boundary, we will try to get at the what and why behind the need, discuss it, see what is appropriate to address it in therapy, whether it is meeting the need another way that isn't a problem with his boundaries or just talking through it.

I have this tug-of-war inside myself to constantly get closer to T and defend him against my approach, defend boundaries of his I don't even know exist. A protective part once told him that she worried he was roadkill for the kids in terms of time constraints and other boundaries. I think you can be hurt, angry, confused about a T's boundaries, and still have respect for them, though. Not saying anyone has said otherwise, but if you are feeling those things inside, it's probably best to trust your T to take care of his own boundaries and let that "challenging" part of yourself out into the light of day. I am trying very hard myself to get to the point where I can stop feeling like it is my job to protect my T from myself and just let these discussions happen in full honesty. If there is such a thing, he is a safe person for me to be hurt by, because he is compassionate, caring and concerned first and foremost about what is best for me within what he feels called and enabled to offer. So, I know even if the conversation leads to pain, it isn't unsafe the way it has been with others in the past. I'm not sure I've made any sense here. Writing on groggy brain.

Yaku,

quote:

Not saying anyone has said otherwise, but if you are feeling those things inside, it's probably best to trust your T to take care of his own boundaries and let that "challenging" part of yourself out into the light of day. I am trying very hard myself to get to the point where I can stop feeling like it is my job to protect my T from myself and just let these discussions happen in full honesty. If there is such a thing, he is a safe person for me to be hurt by, because he is compassionate, caring and concerned first and foremost about what is best for me within what he feels called and enabled to offer. So, I know even if the conversation leads to pain, it isn't unsafe the way it has been with others in the past.

EXACTLY what I was trying to say, thank you. What you said is, to me, the crucial part, more so than where the boundaries actually fall in a dyad. I also think that sometimes our focus is better off being on what our reactions to a boundary tell us about ourselves rather than moving someone else's boundary to make ourselves more comfortable.

AG

Wow, I've been out all day and just logged on to find that this thread has really grown. Thank you all for the discussion and sharing your thoughts with me and with each other and doing so very diplomatically and kindly to me and to each other as well. It makes me happy to such everyone being so respectful of each other's experiences and opinions on this very "touchy" issue.

Right now I'm just really feeling confused and I don't know what I need or want or what type of T I need or want. The hard part of what my T said to me is that he, personally, is not the type of person who hugs and that no one touches him, so it's not a clinical therapy boundary or theoretical stance so how can I have a discussion about this with him? It would have to include his own personal issues that do not belong in my therapy. It also confirms what I have been struggling with for the past year with him... that he is a cold, unfeeling, non-empathic person. Yes, he is a good "therapist" and he knows all the right "clinical" answers and theories. He is so totally unemotional that he makes me feel like a freak at times because I am so dramatically emotional. Like Yaku's zoo exhibit. Yeah I know he is the one who keeps the control so I will feel safe... but at what point does that cross over into feeling like you are with someone like Mr. Spock. I so have to say that it at times prevents me from going where I need to go because the thought of him sitting there just watching me like I'm entertainment blocks me. I also have put the blanket over my head as a defense when this happens.

And so... I don't really feel that my T is comfortable with the topic, that I will never get what I need and it just causes me MORE pain to discuss it with him, and in the end, I just want to sweep it all under the rug where it has been for years and just make believe that I don't need it anyway so who cares.

As far as oldT.... this was one thing he got right. He allowed it but it was not a boundary that he changed to allow the touch. He never said he didn't use touch, he listened to what I had to say and then he was okay with me asking for a hug when I needed one. And after the first hug, we talked about it the next session. It was not something that progressed to the next step or to something else and he never insisted on a hug, I asked for them. He continued to hug me until our next to last session.

And so here I am after all of the discussion ... still hurt and confused and feeling deprived.

TN

I just want to add that when I'm feeling in a more verbal place I will come back to respond to you all.

What makes me feel so despondent about all of this is that it seems that the large majority of posters have Ts who will allow hugs. Some of you may not be in places to accept them, but they are there on offer for when you can.

There may be a few of you who do not know what your T/P's touch policy is because you have not yet asked.

AG's T who does not hug has an across the board, clinical policy of no hugs and will discuss his clinical stance on it.

My T just does not like to touch or hug which makes me feel icky and repulsive way more than if he just had a true clinical reason for denying it. Like all person who fall into the category of "patient" are not worthy of being touched or that he cannot bring himself to hug such damaged, disgusting people.

TN

Hi, TN- I hear your pain and confusion about why your T would have responded with his own feelings about hugging, that "noone touches him" and "he is not personally comfortable with it." Have you told him that by saying that, he effectively shut down the discussion of your feelings around this topic? I think you need to ask him, simply and honestly- what else then, is he not "personally comfortable with." in terms of having a discussion (I realize I'm stepping out on a limb, here, but I'm doing it because I really do think that you have an excellent, compassionate, and caring T) I really think that he will be able to understand why you need to have the freedom to discuss all of *your* feelings about his use or non-use of touch in therapy. I understand that he made it about him- and I think he does understand the mistake he made, too- but I do believe that in order to repair, you absolutely need to ascertain from him what you can and cannot talk about in his room. Tell him that his choice of words has left you unable to discuss your feelings about his decision...(I'm sure you have, and will- but just sayin')

Much love,

Beebs

Hey TN,

Just wanted to say that I was thinking of you and hoping that your session today goes well.