If your feelings are that strong for him. I don't see how continuing to see him at all helps you.

I don't know, but I kind of think you might be better off if you find a new T and try to figure out why your feelings are the way they are.

Because if I just stop seeing him without working through this then I will just feel the same way about the next guy that I have transference for, its my life story. Fall in love with older guys that are authority figures and most of them take off and at least with this one I have the chance to work through it and do it safely. But honestly, not to be rude or mean or anything, but hearing that I should not keep seeing him doesnt make me feel better at all when I am already hurting this much.

I'm sorry i shouldn't have just said stop seeing him... Maybe there is something you can do to stop thinking about him so much like watching a movie or something. Maybe even reading a book or cooking something.

yeah, I am trying to find something to do that will help. I emailed him and let him know how I feel about what happened and hoping that I will get some kind of response and that would probably at least make me feel a little better knowing that he understands or at least knows how I feel.

But even just not thinking about him its just a painful situation that I wish I would have been brave enough right then to say that I needed to talk to him and tell him how I felt. And not to mention that even though I was excited to see my old high school psychologist(whom I am also in love with) today after my session with my P but that means that it will be six more months before I see him again too which is also sad.

Pippi I'm so sorry you are hurting like this. Your P was thoughless in hugging the other patient in your plain view knowing how much you want a hug from him. I can only say that perhaps he didn't realize you were there for a moment and didn't connect his hugging an obviously child-like patient to your need and longings for a hug. I'm glad that if you could not actually talk to him about it that you were able to email your feelings to him to let him know how you are feeling.

The whole touch issue in therapy is well... touchy. Some Ts think it's okay to give a hug or a pat a handshake while others strictly adhere to a non touch rule. Some Ts will do it only if a client asks for it and they will never initiate it. Some Ts fear it will create other problems for patients, especially those with abuse and trauma histories.

I saw my T for an entire year before I worked up the courage to offer my hand for a handshake. I had questioned him once before about his handshake policy and he said he really does not have one. So I offered and he accepted and we shook hands (see my avatar). Of course we discussed it in the next session.

I hope that sending the email will open the door for you both to have further discussion on this issue. Even if you still get a no, just discussing it will be helpful for you and will make you feel better.

I wish I could offer more. Try to focus on all the good things about your P and not the hug. You know sometimes I feel like my T is hugging me during a session when he is not even near me. It's part of that really attuned relationship that can be just as amazing as an actual hug.

Be well
TN

I did email my P and I talked to him on the phone. I texted him and told him that I sent him and email and really needed him to read it. Instead of reading the email or just answering in text he called me. At first I ignored his call cause I didnt know if I could actually go through with talking to him. But in his message he left he was pretty mad that I had bothered him for a non emergency reason and said that he would get to the email whenever he had time but that if I wanted to continue to be his patient than I needed to call and talk to him with in the next minute or two. So I called and when he asked what was up I asked him why he could not just check his email which his reply was that he was not at home and that he wasnt going to just read some long email. He said that I had two seconds to start talking and tell him what happened after therapy that upset me or he was going to fire me as a patient. So I told him. He wasnt all that understanding about it and said it could have waited until the next appointment in three weeks and that I should have known that. But he did admit that he would have probably felt hurt if he was in my place and saw that but that he doesnt even remember hugging the patient. He asked what patient it was and I told him I didnt know so he wanted a physical description. I said I wasnt paying that much attention to HER and his response was basically that of course I wasnt cause I was only paying attention to me and what I wanted. When I said I wasnt paying attention to HER I meant that I was just paying attention to him and then trying not to focus on what I just saw cause I was hurt. He tried to tell me that he deal with each patient differently and it depends on what that patient needs at that time and that we are all different. That really didnt help. The he mentioned that we are also dealing with a lot of other feelings with me right now. I finally just came out and asked him why dont I ever get hugs? He tried to tell me that I have gotten one before which I said it had never happened and then he went back to the whole different patient thing.

He then went back to the deal about contacting him for the wrong reasons and I asked him if he was going to quit seeing me and he said it depends on how I act between now and the next session. So I guess the good thing is that I am still his patient.

I do feel kind of mad at him and actually have been crying since I got off the phone with him because he just doesnt get it. I dont care about why he hugged the other patient, I just want a hug from him! And I would remember if I would have ever gotten one from him before! And it just seems like the more I open up to him and the more honest I am the more he thinks I am just playing games.

Hi Pippi, I wish I was with you right now so I could give you a big hug - I know it wouldn't be the same as a hug from your P though.

I am not sure if it helps to know that you are not alone, you and I are in exactly the same situation. I love my P dearly and for a long time all I wanted was a hug. Now he has hugged me three times and I just want more than hugs now. (my relationship with my P is very unhealthy though because he has very weak boundaries). But I do know what you mean about sitting there through the whole session thinking/obsessing in my case about hugging.

When you said

quote:

but I really wanted to say "what about me? why cant I have a hug?

that really reminded me of something that a child might say to a parent.....a child that has been left out, ignored, not noticed and overlooked in favour of another child or a lover or a bottle or drugs.

Do you ever remember feeling like you would do anything for a hug from one of your parents?

I have a major depression and anxiety and ptsd. For me the most painful thing I have experienced so far is loving my P so much and desperately wanting him to love me back and knowing that he only loves me as a client. That is the same relationship I have with my parents - desperately wanting to be noticed and loved and accepted and knowing I am not. However I am able to delude myself that I am all of those things to them. Same with my P - I have spent the last seven months since he ended deluding myself that he loves me and wants to be with me - because I could not cope with the rejection. He has since let me come back.

Feel free to come here Pippi anytime to talk about this, there is healing in the talking and if I can help you in any way please let me know.

Hugs
Halo

And also I just remembered how I wanted to tell you how brave and inspiring you are!!!!!

I definitely understand how hard that would have been to tell him and you can be so proud of yourself for acknowledging your needs and giving them a voice.

Woohoo Pippi you are growing in leaps and bounds.

Thanks for the replies, they really do help. I spent most of the night awake and thinking about this and crying cause of how much it does hurt, well, Im still crying as I am typing this.

I just wish there was some way to make him understand how much it hurt me and that how much his responses for it were just like something I would have expected from one of my dads that I have problems with. My biological dad told me once that he let my uncle start molesting me at 2 months of age. He did not really care how much it bothered me cause his response was basically "you were my kid and we needed the money so I did what I needed to do." Which to me seemed like the response of "it was my office and I did what I needed to do for my other patient in MY OFFICE so its your fault you were there." My other dad that adopted me spent most of his time dealing with my sister and giving her all the attention cause she acted out so much and has so many problems and she "needed it" just like my P told me that he didnt remember exactly what I was talking about but that if he hugged her than she "needed it". I have spent my whole life with my adopted dad going"hey look at me, what about me, can I have some of your time, can I have a hug, can you act like its not all about my sister." But he never did. And I feel I am now getting that from my P. I am once again the younger sister who just doesnt need as much or at least its the way it seems. I honestly dont understand why I am the one always in that position. But how can he expect me to keep opening up and being vulnerable when if I do it and am that honest I get told I am playing games or lying or making excuses for calling him. I some times wish he would get on here and read some of the stuff I write and maybe then he would understand its not all about me wanting to talk to him. If it was I wouldnt be on here telling how I feel I would only be telling him and I would not be sitting here crying over it.

I guess Ill have to find some way to talk to him about this again when I see him and try to open up more but I just dont know how I can after the response I got this time. I keep telling myself that he doesnt really care and that he just pretends to care for me for the 20 minutes a month that he spends with me and that he made a big deal about changing it to every three weeks instead of 4 that I see him cause it would be too hard to pretend to care about me for 20 minutes every three weeks cause he can barely do it every 4 weeks. I am almost want to stay this mad at him so that next time I do see him I can just go in there and let him have it. I dont know what good that would do but it would make me feel better to hurt him I just dont want to feel this way for the next three weeks. I dont know what I will do and I dont get to see my T until next week cause I am only seeing her every two weeks and even though she is my new T I kind of want to see her and tell her. I guess I am lucky that I get to see the lady from church tonight that I do some counseling with cause that might help some.

I am close to just telling him that from now on I will only talk about meds with him cause I dont feel like I can trust him with anything else, even if thats not what I really would do at least it might hurt his feelings so he can feel hurt like I do. I am afraid that if I am honest about how I feel when I see him that I might start crying which I dont cry in front of people. But maybe if I did he would actually believe me. I am just so scared to cry in front of people.

I am just lost and hurt and dont know what to do. I want to just go hide in bed and not get back out ever again!

And yeah that add attachment thing....no way, can some one please take some attachment away cause I cant deal with it any more.

This therapy stuff is too painful, why did I ever sign up for this crap? And after ten years I should have just ran away before it got to this point!

But I cant run away cause I just love him so much and even being this mad at him I just want him to take me in his arms and tell me everything will be okay and that we can work through this and that I can trust him and that he will be there for me through this and that he loves. But I guess I am wanting to much. I mean seriously, I wasnt good enough to get that from my real dad so why would the man that I am in love with that I just want to be my dad that is actually not my dad do that for me?

I am thinking about printing off a lot of the stuff I wrote on here and taking it to him and just telling him to read it later on. I dont want him to read it in the next session but maybe in between the next couple of sessions just so maybe he could understand how serious I am about this.

I just hurt so much!

Hi pippi
It's a difficult relationship you have with your P. You said he is yelling at you at times and you kind of understand why and sounds like you need him to yell at you to show you the boundary of the relationship (or something like that). And you see him only for 20 minutes every few weeks.
I'm just wondering (I don't remember if you said that is some post earlier) if you ever cried with him. Maybe he would get that then, if he saw how much he really hurt you hugging somebody else while you were present.
I can't imagine why he was not more thoughtful then. I hope he will understand that you really hurt, that you weren't bothering him without a reason. Maybe there is a way to show him that it did really hurt you.

Oh my gosh, Pippi! Your posts triggered something so awful in me and I'm crying too.

I'm horrified about the response he gave you after you emailed/texted him. Oh my gosh, you NEEDED him and he talked to you that way? And threatening you that you had two seconds to start talking. I would've been so intimidated by that, I wouldn't have been able to say a word.

My T goes overtime with the people ahead of me sometimes (by a good 15-25 minutes) but there have been a few occasions where he has gone overtime with me. Yet I seethe with jealousy when I have to wait. I get a handshake before/after but nothing else. I think it'd be nice to get hugged but I don't crave it because I know as soon as I get one he'll either move far away or die.

I know I'm rambling but how I wish your T would've been kinder to you. And now you have to wait such a long time to see him again, and if it were me I'd be filling in his silence with my own words (projecting). What happened to you sounds like everyone's worst nightmare, and I'm so sorry. I wish I knew what else to say. My heart hurts for you. Debbye

I have never cried in front of him or even on the phone with him and I have been seeing him for ten years. I have always been too scared to cry in front of any one, even my parents. The last time I remember crying in front of any one was at my mom's funeral when I four. Even when I was growing up just having serious conversations with my parents that could possible make me cry I would have my head completely covered with a blanket cause I just cant cry in front of people. It does scare me that I have come close the last couple of sessions to actually crying in front of him and so far I have been able to stop it from happening and just hold it in, but I am pretty sure that if I tried to discuss this with him then I would start crying. On one hand I want that to happen cause I think he would understand more if it went to that point where I actually did cry in front of him since that is something I have told him recently I will never do. Maybe then he would understand. But at the same time the thought of that happening is so scary and the though opening up even more and being more vulnerable and not knowing how it will end or if he will really understand.

It is so frustrating to be so in love with a guy that can hurt me so much and its not like he even tries to do it. I wish sometimes he would just pay a little more attention to whats going on. I need some way to make him really understand that I am really trying and being honest and open and vulnerable with him so that maybe he will change the way he is acting.

He does has reasons not to trust me and to think I am just making excuses to call him, but even when I do that I am just not this open or honest with him and would never let it be over something like this. I just want to start over and have him stop focusing on all the times I screwed up or the things I did wrong or the times I have lied. I do exactly what he asks me to do to change things but he still assumes I am doing it for the wrong reasons. I dont know how to change it so that he can see. I want things to be better and I want to work through things but the more I put into it the more it seems like he is pulling out and thinks I am lying. Its just like a kid with a father that she can never be good enough for or never do the right thing. That is really how I feel right now, but at the same time I am so attached to him and in love with him that I could not handle not seeing him, but at the same time I want to run far away from him and wish I could just hate him so much that I could leave and never come back.

Pippi, I am really mad at your P right now! If I were in your shoes, I would be reacting in an extremely destructive way. I wouldn't be able to take it. I can't see how he can be any good for you, or any of his patients for that matter. I want to say lots of #%$@%! about this, but the problem is that I also partially understand your feelings of attachment to him. So although you are angry with him too, you might be tempted to defend him against my anger because you still need him. I hope you can still feel this fury when you see him next and really let him have it. I am sorry for all this pain he has caused you!

Debbye- I am doing the projection thing right now. With him not being there to say anything to tell me how he really feels or why he responded the way he did all I have is the thoughts going through my head that are saying its because he doesnt care and Im not good enough and I dont deserve to get a hug from me and that he doesnt like having me as a patient and he is only doing it for the money and he would rather having me hurting than to have to deal with me for any extra time and that he really doesnt care.

Which is crazy cause just last week I was all about how I know he cares and he shows me he cares and has told me he cares, but now Im down on this end. I hate this therapy roller coaster. And usually to make it all feel better I try to find some way to blame myself for his reaction but right now I am fighting doing that because I honestly feel like I did the right thing.

My P often goes over time with other patients or me. He does not really pay attention to the clock and just lets whatever happens happen which is one of his good qualities. He has not been doing it as much with me lately, but it seems like he is not doing it that much with any patients lately because he has actually been on time for the last year. The first nine years he was never on time for an appointment, you could wait a couple of hours sometimes but every one thought it was worth it because we all got the same kind of care from him and knew he didnt mind taking extra time on us, but it was a big joke with all the patients and even the secretary. Every one knew to never show up even a few minutes early to an appointment and it was usually better to show up a half hour late cause even if he was actually on time for once he would still work you in. But I would pay attention to the clock when I was in the waiting room and get jealous if he spent more time with some one else. Or if he spent more time joking around with them while they were paying for the appointment than he did with me or if one day he shook someone elses hand but didnt shake mine. And if those little things made me jealous than he should know how hurt I would be by this.

It really was just easier thinking he had a no hug policy with all of his patients and only shook hands or would pat them on the back some times but never hugged them. That is what I assumed up until yesterday and it did make me feel better up until that time that I wasnt getting hugs because he didnt do that for any one.

I am so fighting the urge to some how turn this all around on me and make it my fault so that I dont have to feel so angry and hurt by him. Make me where I must have done something wrong, or didnt do good enough during the appointment so I dont deserve a hug.

Mad Hatter- you are so right, as angry as I am I would still try to defend him and I honestly dont understand why! He doesnt deserve to have me defend him but I would do it any ways cause I love him. I do hope I can be angry at him next time and let him have it and let him see how much he hurt me. Maybe if I go in there so pissed off (which anger is another thing I have never really showed him cause I am scared of anger) and let him have it and then start crying maybe then he would understand?

I can see how he is good for some of his patients, or at least the one who got the hug cause I know that would be great for me. I am so hoping right now that he will be understanding next time and really listen and I want to tell him if he wants to make it up to me and make me feel better than give me a fucking hug.

I am fighting the urge to be destructive and completely ruin the relationship. I want to text him and tell him what a --------------------------- he is and a lot of other stuff and that I hate him. And then text him again later and tell him off again just in case he didnt understand the first time how truly pissed I was. And then call and leave a message with his secretary so that she can tell him how mad I am. And than do anything else to piss him off before not showing up to the next appointment without calling so that he could sit there the entire time he is suppose to be seeing me thinking about what he did to make me so mad and how bad he should feel about it. But I am guessing that is not how he would spend his time. He would probably be happy I did not show up so he could have that time to himself.

I just want to hurt him emotionally as much as I am hurting right now, I just dont know what could hurt him that bad.

quote:

I just want to hurt him emotionally as much as I am hurting right now, I just dont know what could hurt him that bad.

That is the weapon they have against us. They don't need us like we need them, so we can't use that need to hurt them to the same extent that they can hurt us. I think P's/T's are the worst manipulators of us all!

My husband said the same thing about my P. He said that my P is just as screwed up as I am and has the biggest ego in the world and that he does the same things to get to me that I do to get to him but that the only difference is he has all the power cause what I do wont really bother him like what he does bothers me. Even with the manipulation, he mentioned that specifically. And he said the hard part is that emotionally I need him and there is no other option to me seeing my P, but my P does not need me and never will need me. So I can try to make him mad and if he gets mad enough he can just stop seeing me and it would be no big deal to him, yet for me this is a make me or break me relationship and if he stops seeing me it will be devastating to me. I want some kind of power over him too! But I guess that will never be possible cause he would have to love me on at least some level and I am doubting that he does or ever will

((((((((Pippi))))))))!

Hi Pippi,
I'm really sorry for what you're going through, I know how painful this all must be. I just wanted to say a few things to you, especially about the idea that you're not deserving of love or a hug. That's a lie straight from the pits of hell. You are a unique, valuable creation of God, and are inherently worthy of love and respect. The problem is NOT with you, it's with the people who should have taken care of you and instead sold your body for their own gain (I can not begin to describe my rage when reading that. I wasn't sure what was worse, that your father did that or that he had no compunctions about justifying it to you.) All of those relationships should have been about your needs, about taking care of you and protecting you, but instead you were at best neglected and at worse used like an object. You deserved so much better, you still do.

Things that are withheld in therapy can definitely evoke all of the horrible feelings of once again being in a relationship where you can't get what you so desparately feel like you need. But the big difference is that the withholding is about what is good for you this time. Even if our therapists did everything we wanted them to do, it wouldn't be enough because we can take it in now the same way we could have as children. And if a therapist doesn't keep good boundaries, they hold out the hope that you CAN get it, which will only hurt you in the same way you've been hurt so many times before. I posted about this a while back when I had a breakthrough, you can read the post here.

And trust me I understand wanting the hug. I finally asked my T about getting one (a few weeks after the above post) and was told no. But we spent a whole appt talking about why he didn't. He didn't give me the hug, but he listened to my feelings about wanting one, and validated those feelings and my hurt and anger about not getting one. That no was important on a lot of layers, but most importantly because when I didn't get the hug, I went past it to the incredible loss of never having gotten a safe embrace from my father. And I needed to face that loss and grieve about it in order to heal.

OK, last but not least, I hear that you have a significant long term relationship with this T, but I do NOT like how he treated you in the least. I think he is letting his own needs intrude on your relationship and you are experiencing a re-enactment that will damage you in the same way that you're trying to heal from. Barking at you, not believing your feelings, DEMANDING that you speak on his schedule all smack of not allowing you to be you, to be your own person, with your own boundaries, making your own choices. He becomes one more person in what sounds like a long string of people, that demand that you conform to what they want instead of being able to experience and express what you want. I am very concerned that this relationship is not good for you. Forgive me, because I know I go where angels fear to tread criticizing your P, but I also want you to be treated right. So I'm putting it out there as something to examine and think about.

AG

AG- thanks for the reply, it really did help. You sounded a lot like the lady from my church that I talk to when you used the "straight from the pit of hell" and any time God is mentioned it makes me feel better, I guess just because of being a Christian. And about you going where every one else is afraid too-sometimes what we dont want to hear is what we need to hear the most. I dont like the way he is treating me at all and I am thinking about doing something about it.

Blackbird-you telling what was going on with you is very helpful! I hate that any one else could even feel close to what I am feeling right now but it does help to know that I am not alone. I think I am going to steal what you wrote to your T and give it to my P. Its exactly how I feel but couldnt make it sound that good. So I am going to give it to him when I see him on the 23rd.

I have decided that I am going to go in there with stuff written down about the way I felt when he hugged the other patient and about the way I feel when he threatens to stop seeing me and everything else. I am going to use the make or break me thing too. I am going to tell him that I do not want to loose him cause he means a lot to me but that it seems like this is where everything is heading. I will ask him what needs to change to make things okay between us again and tell him what really bothers me about the way he treats me. I am going to tell him that the threatening to stop seeing me thing only makes me want to cling to him even more which just continues the cycle of him getting mad and then threatening and me clinging. I am going to tell him that he did hurt my feelings with the very last comment he made on the phone about "now dont call me between no and your next session unless its about meds or something like your house falls on you and you are still stuck underneath and there is no one else that you could possibly call."

I am going to try to get things out and right now I am scared to cry in front of him but if that is what it takes to save this relationship than that is what I will have to do. I am also going to tell him that right now I am scared to open up any more with him because of how he has responded to things lately and that I shouldnt have to be the only one trying to save this relationship. He's the professional so he needs to step up and do his part too. I am willing to do almost anything I need to do to fix things if he is willing to work on and change the few things that make it worse for me.

I am also going to tell him that if it will help to make it where we can basically start over than maybe I should take like a 6 month break from seeing him and then when I come back start at the place I am right now and move forward and maybe then he will stop looking at the past stuff and how much I have screwed up. I really dont want to do this but if that is what it takes to save the relationship than that is what I will do. And if I do that then I will go to seeing my T every week and the lady from church every week to work on stuff so that I can do better when I go back and see him. It will hurt so much if this is the decision we come to that will make things better but it will be worth it in the long run. This really is not a relationship that I can just walk away from at this time. I need him and I need things to work with him. If I am not in love with him there will be another guy and another rocky relationship and at least in this relationship I am safe from him having sex with me like some of the other older guys. Thats one thing I can say for my P is that he is really up front and honest and will straight out tell me when we talk about it "I will not have sex with you, there is nothing you could ever do to convince me to have sex with you and it just wont ever happen."

I am trying to take care of the little girl and its funny you mentioned all that stuff that I should be doing because since last Tuesday that has been the hardest things for me to do. That basic things that should come so easily are the hardest! I have only eaten once since I talked to him on the phone Tuesday night, its hard to get out of bed and when I do get out of bed I just want to go sit in the burning hot shower for an hour and then go back to bed. Its hard on my husband and kids with me feeling this way.

Thanks for the support.

(((((Pippi)))))) I am so sorry for the pain that you are in (and you also blackbird!) but I wish you could see how incredibly strong and brave you are being. I know you don't feel that way because I've been where you've been. I believe you are doing exactly what you're supposed to in talking about all your feelings. This is supposed to be a relationship where you can express everything you're feeling. I am even happier to hear that your P has clear boundaries about not exploiting you. I believe you are very wise to recognize that this is what you do in relationships and this is a chance to figure out what goes on in a safe relationship. And thank you for being so gracious about what I said, please know that I really did intend it to help and not hurt.

Side note: I am a Christian also and have seen in previous posts that you are so I deliberately used that language because I knew it would really resonate. I'm glad it helped.

Blackbird,
My T has often described the theraputic relationship as an "odd duck" but as closest to a parental one. I have actually thanked him for doing such a good job raising me. I think the problem you're running into is that for a very long time, and the attitude lives on, that a patient being dependent on the therapist is a very bad thing and to be avoided at all costs. And in some cases this is true. But for patients who have endured long term trauma, especially in childhood, there are attachment injuries, that make it necessary to be dependent on the therapist for awhile in order to heal. The dependency is a necessary part of the healing. But a lot of therapists don't know about this or have been trained in it. The only therapists who seem to be aware of this are those who specialize in trauma. I was blessed enough to find a therapist who did understand it. If you look at my old posts, you'll see a lot on the book General Theory of Love which explains the necessity of being dependent for awhile. The truth is that human beings, as part of their healthy development, need to BE dependent in order to learn how to be independent. When we didn't get what we needed as children, then we need to go through it as an adult with a therapist. We need to do it with the therapist because it's the only relationship you can have as an adult where it can be all about your needs.

My therapist has spent the last several years letting me be dependent on him including being able to contact him by phone or email in between appts including when he is on vacation (which is extremely liberal compared to most therapists). He was trying to teach me, against all my experience, that moving TOWARDS someone in relationship was a good thing. I needed to have access to him to learn that.

And he always welcomed ALL my feelings. I have talked to him about wanting him as a father, wanting to be part of his family any way I could, wanting to have more than the boundaries allowed, wanting a sexual relationship, being angry about him going on vacations, my fear of his abandoning me, googlling him, my fear of being betrayed and exploited, my questioning of the reality of the relationship, etc. You get the idea. Throughout this process he has always been incredibly accepting and understanding of my feelings, and has never gotten defensive (at least where I could see it! ) He has told me that while the feelings would not be acted on, any and all of my feelings are welcome in his office. And he meant it, go figure! That's what we're supposed to experience as kids, a safe relationship where we can express everything in us and have it meant with acceptance and have someone help us make sense of it. That's what's been so healing. I would highly recommend that you tell your P about General Theory of Love, it might help!

AG

I have not told him yet. I have not talked to him or texted or email at all which has been really hard not to do. I see my T tomorrow and I am going to discuss some things that I am recently learning about myself and see what she thinks about some of it and if maybe there is a different way to go about treating me. And I will see my P in two weeks and I am planning on telling him everything. I have to call sometime this week about needing a refill for my buspar but I am kind of scared to call and ask him so I am waiting until the last possible minute cause I dont want to hear him being mad at me again. He probably wont be but its a possibility I dont want to deal with. He will be out of town next week so I have to call him by Thursday since he isnt in the office on Fridays or Mondays.

I have been talking to my husband a lot about the transference feelings and what is going on and the rocky relationship and how if I dont get it right there will just be some other guy after this one. After discussing this I made a list of every older guy that I have had these feelings for through out my whole life and the way I responded to it. I am only 26 and was probably about 7 or 8 the first time I had these feelings for an older guy. Since then I have 50+ guys on the list. All older men in authority figure positions that are unattainable. I dont know if there is some other disorder that I have that causes me to be this way and the fact that I do constantly call and send letters or emails or go by their house or put myself in a position to be where I can see them, or have them walk past me where I have a chance of them saying hi and if they dont then I am crushed.

I dont know much about if there is a disorder that this explaines but I do know that my P asked me almost a year ago if I felt this way about every guy and I said no because I didnt want him to act like my feelings werent important because I am just in love with every one. TO me that should make them more important because I am constantly getting hurt and we need to find a way to fix it. So maybe I should have told him the truth and might know by now whether some thing else is wrong with me that can be treated differently.

The hardest part for me to describe to people is that the letter writing and other ways I react like basically stalking dont seem wrong to me and the only reason I know they are is because people who I trust tell me what I am doing is wrong. And every single one of these 50+ guys I still have feelings for. They arent as intense after not being away from them for so long but when I run into them I still get the anxious butterfly feelings from it and just want them to talk to me and act like they care.

I dont know what is wrong with me but I am ready to find out and say what I need to say and do what I need to do to get better and work through this. And I am screwed if I cant do it with this P cause I will have to start over from the beginning with anyone else. And my P has been there for 10 years and willing to work through this with me so that is what I have to find a way to do.

I am still mad at him for the way he reacted and I am going to make sure he knows that and tell him that when he threatens to keep seeing me it just makes me cling more and feel like I need to call him anymore. I am almost getting excited about my appointment in two weeks and the opportunity to work through this, I just hope the excitement does not give way to fear. I will post more tomorrow after I see my T and discuss all of this with her that way I can have her opinion before discussing with my P.

I married an older man too. He is 45 and I am 26. He actually started out as my boss when I started working for Kirby Vacuums. I pulled up for my first day of training and saw him outside smoking and said to my friend that I was in love and going to marry that man. I told him that the next day too and he just laughed at me. I did my typical stalking behavior on him and it actually worked for once. My P tells me all the time that my relationship with my husband started out as transference and for some reason just worked out. We are now going on 5 years of marriage and three kids and I still love him. The feelings are not as strong or as intense as they were in the beginning but I still couldnt imagine my life without him.

The session with my T went pretty well. In the beginning she was asking if I had ever thought about having a female P but by the end of the appointment she was saying that she understood why I needed to continue seeing my P and fix things with him and work through these feelings with him. It felt good hearing her say that. She was surprised that he stuck with me through every thing that he has and said she was going to try to talk to him. She mentioned the disorder Erotomania but everything I have found on it said that it is a delusional disorder where the female also thinks the guy is in love with her. I dont think they are in love with me but I honestly dont think the things I do to be with the guys are wrong. I get told they are but I dont feel they are. If I wouldnt have basically stalked my husband in the beginning I wouldnt have ever ended up with him. If when I was pregnant and he got back with his exgirlfriend cause we were broke up if I hadnt made a phone call to her to let her know he was still cheating on her with me than he would of probably still ended up with her. And he now knows I did that and is thankful because he loves the way our life is now. Some times I just think that I know what is best for these guys, they just dont understand I am just trying to love them and if they gave in like my husband did than it wouldnt be that bad. But I do know that I would never actually cheat on my husband.

Right now I am waiting on a call from my P and it is driving me crazy. My T said it would be okay to call him and tell him that I needed a refill on my medication cause thats normal doctor stuff. So I called his office (instead of his cell phone) and left a message yesterday and never heard back from him. So I then tried today but the secretary would not answer the phone when I called, which I know they have caller ID at the office and she just doesnt answer the calls. So I had my husband call from his phone and talk to her. When he said who he was she was being rude to him. He told her that the reason he was calling for me is because I was worried about what would happen if I called the office again, if I would get accused of calling too much, so the easy solution was for him to call. He told her what he needed and said that they could call me if they wanted to and she said no they would take my husbands phone number and call that back. She wouldnt even consider taking my phone number and asking my P to call. So I dont know whats going on with that but I am worried that he is still mad at me and going to stop seeing me. I wont go check the mail because I dont want to get a letter in the mail. My husband left his cell phone with me incase the P or secretary does call because I will be able to explain what I need better than my husband can since right now they were all confused on it. I am really hoping he calls soon so that I can also ask him if every thing is okay.

I am scared of how I will react if he doesnt call or says things arent okay cause today is already the worse day of the year for me. 22 years ago today my mom, who was actually my 3rd mom and the one who adopted me, died. So this is a really hard day and my P always ends up doing the bad things on hard days. The one time he stopped seeing me I got the letter the same day and only minutes before my dad and sister came to tell me that my sister had found our biological parents and they were going to call and talk to me that night. Some thing i needed to talk to my P about for support yet I got the letter and had no way of talking to him. He just founded out 2 months ago that all happened on the same day and felt bad about it and he knows when he gets mad at me that I get scared to even check the mail, so I am wondering if he would actually risk doing that to me again in the same way, I would hope not.

I get to go to therapy with my christian therapist tonight so I am hoping that will help me deal with everything going on because she is better than my T and I love the christian part of it. Always gives me better understand of everything.

So does any one know much about this erotomania stuff?

Blackbird - yeah that is kind of funny that we both married older guys. I know that if it wasnt for my husband I would be in all kinds of trouble. He has saved me so many times, and I know that my P would have also stopped seeing me long before now. I still dont know what is going on or how I am feelings about him right now. I am stuck in this weird place where I am not completely mad at him anymore but I dont know that I am so in love with him right now. This is the first time in 10 years to feel this way and I dont even know how to respond to it. I am looking forward to seeing my P next week on Tuesday to discuss this new feeling and hopefully figure out what is going on. I am also wanting to discuss the transference as much as possible because right now while I am feeling some what removed from the feelings. I am hoping the feelings stay the way they are right now at least until after I see him so that it might be easier to talk. I am guessing if he responds well I will fall deeply in love with him again. But maybe no, maybe this is what it took to work through the feelings. I guess I will know after next Tuesday.

Also feeling removed from the transference feelings has made it where I have not felt the need to call him. I have made it two weeks without calling or texting his cell phone which is longer than I have gone in over a year. It kind of feels good to be able to do that and I am hoping I can keep it up until next week so that when I see him I can say that I only contacted him once between sessions and it was the day of the last session, so it will be 3 weeks of no contact. The only problem I have right now is the fact that is secretary is not helping me out with getting the meds even when my husband calls and I am now completely out of meds and considering texting my P to see if I can get some. I am starting to think that the secretary is not giving him the messages and letting him know that I need the meds. I am going to wait until tomorrow and call the office one more time and see if something gets done but if it doesnt I will have to decide if what I will do and if its worth contacting my P or just going without meds for the next week.

Dragonfly- its nice to see you on here. Its always great to have new people. Thank you for your kind words. It took me awhile before I was brave enough to be honest on here, but I finally got to the point where I needed people to talk to who understood what I was going through and through this site is where I have found the courage to be even more honest with my P and just lay it all out. I guess I got to the point where I realized that hiding the feelings does not work so it was time to try something new. You should post more often! It really does help to talk about what is going on.

I do hurt right now, so I just want to leave a few words in your thread, pippi, about hurting...

I came back from my session not so long ago.
It was difficult, it's always difficult, I'm stuck for good and I can't move on. I did the best I could this week to talk about my feelings. I told him, that I didn't feel well last week, when I didn't see him, that it was hard, and that I was hoping that he will get back to me and find some time to meet me later during the week. But he didn't and I felt let down and disappointed, and even slightly angry with him. But just slightly. I'm not able to be really mad at him. So I told him all this (with a slight help from him) and that was fine.
I told him that of course I would prefer if he never was sick and never took any time off, but I know I can't expect that.

I told him about the dream I had about a cave and three bears in it and how that relates to my crying and my feelings, which I can't feel especially during the session. I was quite struggling trying to talk about feelings that I could not connect to and trying to remember the feelings from when I'm not in the session. I was thinking about the sexual attraction but there was no way in hell that any word about it would get out of my throat. I was wondering, hoping that he would guess what I'm thinking about. But anyway, he admitted that he can't quite feel that we are connecting today. I simply was shut down and was struggling to get something out.
Awfull thing, I noticed him yawn. He almost managed to hide it, but I saw it. Feeling a bit pissed off about it. But then I know he tried his best not to make me see it. I also know that I do yawn sometimes when I listen/listened to people I really care about, so perhaps it is not necessary a disaster, but still... Prick... Anyway, that did not help me out.

At some point he replied something that he doesn't mind me having feelings for him and I said that maybe I would like him to mind, I would like it to matter, I would like him to care. By then the time was up and he said that he doesn't like to end it at this point, but we will take it up during next session. And only then when I was about to get up I felt like crying. I got up, got my bag and my jacket while crying and trying to hide it and calm down. He asked if I would sit down for a few minutes, becuase he doesn't want me to leave like that, but I would not. I just said "I'm so sorry, I'm sorry to put you in a situation like this". He said something, I forgot, something that he hates to let me leave feeling like this. We were standing like that for a few seconds, because there was somebody from next room just leaving or coming in and after it was clear he opened the door to let me out. He touched my arm as usual as I was leaving, maybe pressed his hand slightly more because I was leaving so upset or maybe I just felt it more...

Anyway I hurt because I would like him to care about me and to love me. I don't expect him to have the same kind of feelings for me. I do understand that it si not possible, but I would like him to have some feelings, and I'm so afraid to talk and ask about it. So I kind of decided now, that in order to move on I will let myself get hurt. That I will do my best to tell about me wanting some care and love from him and I will expect to hear something that will hurt. Maybe this is the way forward. Maybe I need to get hurt but him, and still love him despite feeling hurt, rejected whatever, maybe he will hurt me first (even if he doesn't want to) and then I will be able to move on and heal? So I'm going to go there next week and make him hurt me if he has to.
Maybe I'm talking and thinking absolute bollocks now, but maybe that's what has to be done.

Amazon,

I know how you feel and I am sorry you are going through so much and hurting! I cant stand it when my P tells me that he doesnt mind me loving him or that its not a big deal. I have always wanted to say "I want you to mind, it is a big deal to me so it should be to you also." But I have not been able to get that out yet. But I am pretty sure that I will this next time, especially because I am going to talk about me seeing him hug the other patient. I just hope I can tell him how I feel about it because its hard when I am not right in the middle of those feelings. That is the main reason I contact him so much between sessions. When the transference is strong I need to talk to him about it then, not wait two or three weeks and try to talk about it after the intensity has passed. But he always tells me it can wait until the next session. I really dont understand how he can think that or think that dealing with the transference when its at the most intense points is not the best idea. I cant seem to be as honest or even remember how the feelings which I have been told is because of the BPD. We think so black and white and when I am happy I am happy and dont remember what being angry or hurt felt like but then when I am angry or hurt I could not tell any one what it would be like to be happy. But I cant seem to make my P understand that. Some times I think that he really believes that I just dont want to talk to him and am just trying to be difficult.

The other thing I have been learning lately is that just because my P doesnt love me the way I want him to love me does not mean that he doesnt love me with all he can or has. When I think about it that way it makes me feel better and makes me think that even when he treats me like crap that maybe he just cant be anything different right now, but that doesnt mean he doesnt care about me or love me, its just the way I wish he would.

I hope your next session goes good and that you are able to go in and say everything you need to say.

Monte- I often feel like I have nothing to say that is good enough or that could help the people on here too, so sometimes all I say is that I know how they feel. And sometimes that is enough to just know that we are not alone in all of these feelings that we are going through.

And what you said about being a christian and praying for me is more than enough help. I know all the help I could possibly need will come from prayer and searching in that direction. So it is a comfort to know that there are other people out there that are praying for me to make it through these difficult times since He is where our help comes from! I too am praying for you along with several other people on here.

Hello fellow newbies Monte, Dagonfly and Blackbird
I just want to say how I can agree that posting at first can feel really scary, I have only done so a few times and each time it has taken me ages and a lot of courage to press 'post now' but I know that hopefully I will find it easier each time I do. My T has spent ages telling me to talk to someone, anyone, if I can - just a little bit, maybe I guess so I am not dependent so much on her So I feel I have started that process a tiny bit by talking here with people who really know. Do you guys talk to others outside this post, or are you, like me, just carrying around a whole heap of horrible rubbish, that you can never talk about?
Amazon I am sorry that your session was so hard. It is so painful to leave at the end, when you need some comfort more than anything. I don't know you well but I want to say I will be thinking of you next time and do hope that you can have a better session without the need to let yourself so get hurt along the way.

I have tried to talk to other people who are not in therapy about what is going on with my relationship with my P and the transference but they just cant understand. These people that I have talked to have been there for me through other stuff and are great christian friends that I can really trust and lean on, but their main response is "are you sure you should be seeing someone who you have those feelings for?" They do not understand it at all and think that as soon as transference feelings start that you should run in the other direction from them. I have tried to explain to them that its something that happens in therapy all the time and that running away from the feelings is the easy thing to do but will get me no where but there is just no way to get them to understand. It is one of those things you have to go through to even being to understand it. They cant understand the type of feelings or the pain that comes along with transference unless they have lived it. So even though I am honest with other people about it I choose not to take what they say about it with that much importance. I know that they dont understand and if they were the ones going through it their answers would be different. But it does sometimes help to still have some one to talk to and get the feelings out of me and let someone else know what is going on even if they dont understand, and for it to also be someone that I can see and talk to in person. But it is still nothing compared to talking to people on here and get advice and help and understanding from people who are living through the transference and have been where I have been. Its great to be able to talk to people on all different levels of the transference, here we have people who used to be where I am but are far past me now, some who are exactly where I am and some who are where I used to be. And its nice to see all the different levels and progress and shows that there is some hope in it.

Hi bb

quote:

I have tried to talk to some people about the experience of Therapy/Transference...but I am starting to figure out that it's not really the best idea for me to do so.

Logically, you can't give up - because what this site tells us it that it's through the honesty that we are able to heal and move forwards.

I'm not sure who "some people" and "they" are.

Once I had opened up to my husband, I had my T and hubbie have an appointment to discuss the whole "transference" stuff so he could ask questions and recieve appropriate answers. I also gave him the following article to read - which was recommended by someone here - and this helped him too:

http://www.guidetopsychology.c...tic_transference.htm

Hang in there bb and remember, baby steps.

I'm OK

So the closer it gets to Tuesday the more worried and freaked out I am getting about this session coming up. I have thought about everything that happened after the last session, the hug, the phone call to him, and all the feelings. I want to make sure that I do this right and really talk to him, but have no idea what I need to say or how to even start it. I have sat down and tried to reread the posts and write stuff down but my brain just shuts down and tries to block it out. I am so worried this is going to happen when I see him and I am not sure what to do about it. I am really starting to freak out. At first I felt like I was scared to go see him because right now the feelings of the transference are not that bad. It is like I am getting a little break from it and I am worried that if I go in there and start talking about anything that the feelings will come back really strong. I want things to get better with my P and do what ever I have to make things better but dont know where to even start. I tried to talk to my old highschool P about this and he said that I needed to tell my P that I am feeling stuck, that I dont want to stop seeing him but at the same time I am scared to move forward cause I am just stuck. I dont know how that will go over and I can see my P asking me more questions that I wont be able to answer. I just dont know where to go from this point or what needs to happen, all I know is that things have to change and I have to make it obvious that I am being honest when I say I want to work on things and for our relationship to change.

Pippi, I also want to do something to move on. I have my session on Monday.
I don't know what to do. I'm afriad that if I will honestly tell what I feel, what I think and what I need I may get hurt and don't know what next. I don't know. I need to do something. But I risk getting hurt and loosing what I love. This is going to be so difficult. I don't know if I will have the courage, but I may really be hurt, dead inside. I think I'm afraid more of feeling dead and empty then of hurting. I don't know, I really don't know.

Hi Pippi, I'm really wanting to know how it goes for you when you see your P again! I'll be thinking about you! mlc

thanks, I will update on Tuesday night after I get home from seeing him. I get to see my T on Monday afternoon so I am hoping maybe talking with her will help me get things figured out on what exactly I need to say. I want to go in there prepared with things written down in case I cant get the words out but my mind goes blank every time I start to write. My husband said I should not write anything down or go in there prepared. He basically said that hasnt really worked for me yet during this whole time, so I need to go in there not worrying about what I need to say and just say what I am thinking or feeling at that exact moment. He said if I am scared to talk to him then to just tell him that what I am feeling is that I am scared to talk to him because I made him so mad last time and because I am not sure I want to or can discuss the hug issue and why it bothered me so much. And from there my P should be able to guide the conversation where it needs to go and help me. I am really considering trying what my husband told me to do, but the one thing I fear is that I wont talk and it will be a waist of time and I will be stuck right where I am now. So I might print this stuff I have written on here out, like was suggested, and then use it as a back up plan. I might even leave it in the car so if I am having a hard time I can tell him I need to go get something out of the car to give to him which will give me a couple minutes break time to get the paper and calm myself down. But whatever happens I will give an update after I see him, hopefully it will be a good "I got it done and everything is great" update. Actually I wish it could be "I said what I needed to say, we are getting along again and the transference is completely gone" but I doubt that will happen, cause since he has been being nice to me the last couple days when I texted him about meds, I can feel the feelings coming back a little bit, but not as strong as before, so I am terrified that when I see him they will come back full force and cause me to be too scared.

Amazon, I really hope you can spit out what you need to say tomorrow. Mainly because if you don't then you will be prolonging the agony, and I really want to see you have some relief. I hope you will post and tell us how your T responds. What you have written about him in the past has most always been favorable (except the part when he dared to get sick recently ), so hopefully he won't let you down this time either! Be brave! You can do it!

Pippi, I know this has been a very long wait that is almost over to see your P again, and you will just be so frustrated if you don't get it right. Why do you think writing things down hasn't worked for you in the past? When you write things down do you try to articulate your emotions? Do you personally read out loud to him what you have written or do you ask him to read it? If he reads it, does he read it silently or out loud? Don't know if this is your particular problem, but when I write things down and actually dare to read them aloud uncensored, I still have a hard time accessing the emotion that I felt when I originally wrote the words. So for example, I may read to my T out loud that I felt angry but yet not be able to feel or sound very convincing of that feeling in the present moment. But I still think it is better than saying nothing at all. However, maybe your style works better with being spontaneous and just shooting from the hip, so to speak. Have you ever tried before the strategy that your husband is suggesting?

I have never tried it the way my husband has suggested. When I write stuff down I dont talk about it at all really. I silently had it over to him and then refuse to look at him most of the time for the rest of the session. Every once in awhile he will sort of read it out loud but kind of whispering where I can hear what he is saying and that drives me crazy! I dont like him reading it out loud because then I know exactly what he is reading or what part of the letter he is on and I dont want to know. I want him to read quietly and that way if he happens to make some facial expression (which he hasnt done yet) I wont know what exactly he is reading at that moment. The last time I told him he had to read it to himself so I couldnt hear it he just looked at me like I was crazy and said "well, since I got the letter in my hands, and I am your doctor and I believe I know whats best I will decide how we will do this." And then he read parts of it out loud. I have never tried reading it to him, I am way too scared to do it although my therapist has told me since the first session with her that if I write something down I will be reading it to her and that when ever she does talk to my P she is going to tell him to do the same thing for me. I am not real excited about that idea cause I just get so scared in there cause I can easily write down stuff I would never actually say cause I convince myself that I wont really give it to him and that I am just taking it just in case I might decide to. And there has been several times that I have been to scared to hand the stuff over to him and needed him to just reach over and take it out of my hand. Which he does not mind doing.

I have never been able to talk to any one about my feelings, whether its when they happen or later on, at least not in person. I can write them down all down or send them in emails, which is why my P doesnt want me sending emails, he wants me to talk in person. And when I do talk to my therapist and my christian counselor about stuff that has happened its like I am recalling a story that someone once told me a long time ago. There is no emotions or feelings to it and I hate it being that way. But I am sure because of the responses I have been given my whole life when I do break down and actually need someone and try to tell someone how I feel, is the reason I cant do it now. But whatever I do I really dont have long to figure it out. And right now I am extremely excited and nervous about Tuesday and how things might or might not go....

Well, this is just me, and I know everyone is not like me, but I think in most instances it is harder to be open if I don't have some sort of crutch, like a piece of paper, or else some sort of separation in distance, like texting. I have said several things to my T in texts or letters that I haven't been able to express in her presence, but then it becomes an ice-breaker because she always follows up on it during the next session, which forces me to at least acknowledge what I wrote. I personally agree with your T in thinking it would be better if your P would read your entire letter out loud instead of mumbling or whispering it, even though it will be extremely uncomfortable for you. The words need to be out there in the open, because only once that happens can the fear begin to diminish. One good thing about reading it out loud yourself is that your eyes are focused on the page instead of on your P's facial expressions. It's a good excuse to look down! Pippi, I bet if you did this your P would be so impressed. They tend to get excited when we make progress, because they care and have worked hard to see it happen. They want to make a difference in our lives. So if nothing else helps, think about that - about wanting to reach your P by impressing him, showing him you are making baby steps in expressing your feelings. Boost his ego a little! Then see how he responds to that. Maybe turn this around and use a little psychology on him?

Pippi, I hope we'll both make it. I want to try, it is going to be damn hard, but I will try to remember that it is the hard thing that I chose to do. I hope I will not chicken out and shut down like I did for the past two sessions, when I completely backed off. Whenever words will get stuck in my throat I will try to remember that these are the things that I'm afraid to tell, so these are the words that I should say despite the fear.

And MH, do you know what he did? He did not only dare to be sick and not show up. He actually yawned last time. Now... I forgive him, but I have to tell him that as well. I suppose the good thing is that something in me does not get convinced that it means he doesn't care. But I need to talk to him about this. He has to know. I'll do my best. T
here is no point for me writing down stuff since I never ever read anything in front of him, so perhaps that's too big a step to take.
I wish I could text him, but I was too afraid. I was afraid that he will be annoyed and will start to hate me if I will be texting him.

My T sighed at the end of our very first session (like way back in June) and although I was bothered by it (just wondering what it meant and what she might have been thinking when she did it) I never brought it up... until a few weeks ago during a phone session where I didn't have to see her face to face. Now I realize how absurd it was that I brought it up - as if she could remember what a sigh meant 7 months later! These things can't really be interpreted correctly unless they are addressed almost immediately.

I am a little surprised that so many people are even more scared than I am to open up in therapy. I have never thought of myself as being particularly brave or open. However, in my last session my T said a lot of people in my shoes would be holding back more and not talking at all. I guess that was supposed to be a reassurance that I'm doing OK in this struggle and I don't need to beat myself up over my rate of progress 'cuz it's fast enough for right now. This isn't a race against anyone but ourselves. We only need to push ourselves a little beyond where we are currently at.