I love this from the transference article:

"Sometimes now when I try to conceive of the therapy as a whole I feel as if I am thrashing about in a bad dream, or that I am tangled in a net and struggling to break free. This is what it is like when the ego struggles to work through a mass of unconscious conflicts that have pinned it down since infancy."

And from the mind article:

"When we are fragmented the past is distant, hazy, difficult to remember. We live from day to day with only partial awareness of the feelings going on inside us, an incomplete understanding of our own needs, and a tentative grasp on our own continuity. We are never completely sure who we are or what we feel or think. Our emotions, when they arise, take us by surprise and disrupt whatever sense of self we have."

Both of these describe where I am at and being in this state is making me very, very tired.

River,

Me too. I mean to a tee. Reading his reflections on therapy I'm sitting there going, "yep, that's me, and that's me, and that's me, and that's me, etc., etc.".

It makes me wonder if I am striving to be re-integrated or, as he says, integrated for the first time. I have a feeling it's the latter.

But I think there's hope in his reflections, too. His post on healing was very hopeful, and describes me perfectly (minus, as i say, the sunny glimpses...haven't had those just yet.)

Russ

quote:

the sunny glimpses...haven't had those just yet

I haven't had any for so long that I am beginning to wonder if I've gotten as far as I can with this.

quote:

Originally posted by River:

quote:

the sunny glimpses...haven't had those just yet

I haven't had any for so long that I am beginning to wonder if I've gotten as far as I can with this.

You sound really frustrated, River. Do you mind if I ask how long you've been at this, and what you initially went into therapy for? If it's none of my biz, just tell me to go jump in a lake. I won't take it personally.

Russ

Russ,

I've been in therapy for about 6 yrs and I guess I have been doing this deep therapy stuff for about the last 2 yrs. Before that it was mostly triage and learning life management skills. The deep therapy is the grueling, "let's get to the bottom of this so we can rewire your brain and actually change how you think rather than just how you handle stuff" that seems to involve the whole transference crap that I hate dealing with. It sounds so simple: counteract the decades of negative messages you have been told and internalized with positive relationship experiences starting with your T. But I can't seem to take in any positive experiences in a lasting way especially from my T. There is a huge wall of negative feelings about myself that seems impenetrable. When the positive experiences come along my left brain can seem to accept them but my right brain self doesn't believe any of it. Ole Righty is staunchly convinced that people are not to be trusted, no one can help me, give me what I need or wants to. I am a burden and a whiny brat who shouldn't bother wanting anything from anybody. Now Lefty can argue all of this over and over but Righty isn't going to yield unless presented with indisputable proof. So far Righty has been able to find holes and question the validity of just about everything T says. Righty's arguments are not always logical but they are effective nonetheless. So maybe, I need something other than a T. It is too easy to discount her actions and words because of the nature of the relationship. All I have is faith to go on and the willpower to believe that she means what she says and Righty isn't impressed.

River,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with me. And you're right, it does sound simple, and maybe the concept is simple. Obviously, making it a reality is another story. I sometimes feel like I'm going to have to go ALL the way back to where the trouble started (whatever age that was) via therapy, and "fix" it before I see any progress. This may be totally off base and I sure hope it is, but sometimes it feels that way.

My T is convinced that my symptoms are caused by anger, and while I tend to agree with him (god knows I've got plenty to be angry about), there doesn't seem to be any real way to actually get to this anger.

Anyway, I appreciate your feedback on this board.

Russ

I can't get to the anger either. Anytime I start feeling angry about anything I immediately shut it down without even thinking about it. I am thoroughly trained in the art of not being angry and not fighting for myself or asking for anything. Very hard habits to break when they have been just happening unconsciously for almost 4 decades.

I guess I should refine my statement a little. I get angry. But, as I explained in my other thread, it's all unfocused or it's at myself, neither of which is a good situation. I told my T on friday that maybe he should intentionally do something to piss me off so I can get some of it out, directly at him. He didn't seem to think that was such a good idea.

I would sure like to read an account of someone who was able to actually get to their anger in the correct context and get well.

Russ

It's sort of weird. I'm completely in love with my therapist (as the mother I wish I had), and I never want to be angry at her, but I've been angry at her a few times. Last week, I was so angry at her. I think it's because she's going to be going away for a couple of weeks. I kept pushing her away and pushing her away. Finally, she saw an opening, and snuck in. She was across the room, then the next minute, she was sitting by me, rubbing my back and reassuring me that she's not going to go away just because I push. I don't want to be angry at her, but sometimes, I can't help myself.

Another time, it was time to leave, and I wasn't ready to go. I was so mean to her! I told her that it was mean to make me go. It wasn't fair, and why does she always get to be in charge. Doesn't she know how that makes me feel? etc. etc. etc. I was speaking in a very harsh tone. She was watching me get my things together, and I said, "Stop looking at me!!! Why are you just staring at me?!" I almost always give her a hug when I leave, but this day, I said, "And I don't want a hug, because I'm mad because your mean to make me go." She just kept saying, "I'm sorry," the whole time. Prior to this, she had never uttered these words to me. The next time I saw her, I tried to apologize, but she kept saying, "Please, just let it be." So, I think I hurt her feelings.

Usually, when I'm angry at her, it's because I hate myself at that moment, and she usually calls me on it. This whole relationship is so weird. I love her so much, and I never want to be angry at her, but when I am, I'm so riled up, it's like I'm more angry than I ever get with anyone. Maybe it's cuz I feel safe with her.

Anyway, that's my deal with anger. Completely different than what you guys are describing.

Hi Catgirl,

You are fortunate to be able to get angry with your T. Did it take a while before you were able to do this? Have you been able to identify the true source and object of your anger? From what I've read, this sounds like classic transference to me.

The past couple of days, I've been wishing my T could feel how I feel. I think if he could be in my shoes for a day or two, he'd have a better idea about my suffering and be better able to help me.

I've also thought about where I'd be now if I'd had him for a father instead of my real father. I know the answer; I wouldn't be in therapy. I'd be a fully integrated person living a totally different, happy life. But no, I had my distant, unsmiling, crumpy, sneering a-hole of a father and I'm where I am in large part because of his shitty parenting and inability to see that human beings need emotional connections.

Anyway, it's great that you can get angry with your T.

Russ

Russ,

You were wondering a few days ago if lack of transference is a problem. It sounds like you're smack in the middle of it.

In my family, growing up, anger was one of the few accepted emotions. It was certainly seen as "bad", but it wasn't shamed in the same way that sadness or excitement and other feelings were. One reason is that my dad had a horrible temper. One of my roles in the family was the "tough girl." They thought I was strong and could handle anything, and I think part of this was due to the anger I carried around. I have always had a lot of anger, so it's not surprising that it comes out in therapy.

Every time that I've gotten angry with my therapist, we haven't completely worked through it, which is okay with me. She seems to just want to let it be. (Unless it comes from my self-hatred, in which case, we figure out the root of it pretty quickly and address that.) Maybe, she knows that I will go into a fit of self-hatred and shame if we analyzed it too much, and she's showing me that you can be angry at someone and it can be okay afterward. But, I think that what's happening is that it hurts her feelings when it is so clearly directed at her. (I guess therapists are people, too.) She and I are extremely close, and it's probably hard when I turn against her like that. (Maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, I don't know-it's strange how this relationship makes you second guess everything, because the feedback is so different than a social relationship.)

I was talking with her on the phone on Friday (she calls me on Fridays to check in with me, because I need the attachment), and we were talking about her going away. I told her that I was angry that she's going to be going. She said, "I hear that it's an angry protest. I'm glad, though, that you're not pushing me away, because then it would feel overburdensome to me." It was a glimpse into her feelings as a real person, not just a therapist. I can't believe she showed me this type of vulnerability! Anyway, I felt bad, because just on Monday, I had pushed her away in anger, because she's leaving. It ended up alright when she came to me at the right time. But, still, I see that my anger affects her. That's my point-that I think when I'm angry with her it sometimes hurts her feelings, and we don't completely work through it. If I pursued working through it, she'd probably end up being okay with it, but I usually let it go too.

Maybe you should relax about the whole thing and not have too many expectations of yourself. You can't force yourself to be angry. (By the way, it took about a year for me to get angry at my T) It will come in its time. It took me forever to cry in front of my T. I probably wouldn't have ever done it, except my mom died. (Sadness was not accepted in my family, so I'm more cut off from feeling that than anger.) Let it be. It will work itself out if you keep doing your work with your T.

Meow,

Catgirl

quote:

Originally posted by catgirl:
You were wondering a few days ago if lack of transference is a problem. It sounds like you're smack in the middle of it.

I think you're right, Catgirl. And I think I just realized that my constant need to be reassured of this is pretty revealing. That didn't just start yesterday.

quote:

Originally posted by catgirl:
Maybe you should relax about the whole thing and not have too many expectations of yourself. You can't force yourself to be angry....Let it be. It will work itself out if you keep doing your work with your T.

You are, of course, completely right.

As for your T leaving for a break, I think our unconscious kicks into HIGH gear when this happens, and what we experience consciously is really painful. The last time I couldn't see my T, I was literally howling in pain because I felt so alone that night. And I think just behind that aloneness is anger...anger for that missed connection that is normally always there. Kind of like a child whose mother has left them alone when they didn't want to be left alone.

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated. And of course, we'll all be here during your T break.

Russ

Cat,

Have you tried asking your T if your angry words and actions directed towards her actually do hurt her feelings? You may be to afraid to find out for sure but then again maybe she is just trying not to trigger you into self-hatred by not delving into it more. I guess I ask because it seems that the number rule for T's is to not take stuff their clients say personally....

River,

You're right, I'm afraid to ask her. I also feel shameful about my outbursts.
Once, out of the blue, I asked her if when I get angry if it hurts her feelings. She said no. But, she acts differently at the time. It sort of depends if the anger is aimed toward her or not. When I'm generally angry, she seems to handle it fine. When I'm angry at her, there's always sort of a weird feeling in the air-maybe it's just projection. But the last time I was angry at her, on Monday, at the end of the session, I asked her if she hated me and if I was going to push her away. She said, "If you would just come out from under your blanket, you would see that I'm crying." I asked, "Why are you crying?" She paused for a long time and said, "Because I believe what I'm saying. I'm speaking to you from my heart." We were talking about me pushing her away, and how she's not going to let that happen. So, her whole reaction just made me think that she had big feelings during that session. Whatever they came from, I don't know, but it's just weird that they would just be from talking about me pushing her away. I think that it worked her up when I was pushing her away, and then she felt an emotional relief when I let her back in. Maybe it's just my projections. But, I'm pretty good at judging emotional reactions.

Anyway, I don't know if I'm making any sense. I just think that it's not exactly completely clean and all therapist/client when I'm angry at her.

I don't want to talk about it with her yet.

catgirl

Some T's use their counter-transference in therapy and others avoid it. Maybe your T uses hers? I can totally understand your reluctance to talk to her about it though. I can barely talk to my T about positive aspects of our relationship, let alone any negative occurrences.

River

Today, I asked my T if she feels hurt when I'm angry toward her. She said, "Generally, no, I try to figure out where it's coming from, but if your particularly rough, it does. I am human, after all"

So, I guess it does sometimes hurt her feelings after all.

I'm glad she was honest with me.

catgirl