Incognito,
I am sorry, because I remember wrestling with all of those feelings, and I know how scary and painful it is. But I think it's really important for you to keep talking about this to your T.

I remember complaining to my T that my feelings were irrational and he very calmly responded that feelings often are irrational but that made them no less important to express.

I think that a lot of what you're worrying about with your T is probably more about your past and what your significant relationships taught you to expect. It doesn't matter what you KNOW intellectually, so much of your experience was about not being able to trust people to care for you, that it's understandable that you are going to experience it being different a LOT before your feelings can change.

I think you are also trying to "protect" yourself from getting too close. On some level, do you believe this is going to inevitably end up in disaster? Moving closer can feel so dangerous that we end up being hyper-vigilant to find some reason to run BEFORE we get hurt again.

It's also difficult when we are feeling such intense emotions to believe that those feelings are NOT reality. The only way to learn that our feelings aren't always true is to keep expressing them and checking with the other person to see if they feel the way we think they do. The really hard work is in accepting that what they say is true. In other words, if your T says he cares or that not calling you back wasn't about you, you need to trust him and try to recognize that no matter how strongly your feelings are telling you otherwise, they are not a good reflection of the truth NOW (they were at one time, just no longer.)

So as wrong as it feels, it really is the right thing to go back and address this as many times as you need to. I once very vehemently expressed my frustration to my T of how much reassurance was I going to need and he quite calmly told me that he would reassure me until I didn't need to be reassured anymore. I thought that day would never come, but it did (OK, years later than I would have liked, but you know the old saying, better late than never.)

I hope you can have a good session tomorrow and find a way to express all this.

AG

I can relate to everything you're feeling...

I am terrible at giving advice but give great Cyber-Hugs! Good luck tomorrow,



effed

((((incognito))))

I'm so sorry. AG has a lot of wisdom here, so I'll just add my own experiences of the same. From an inside perspective, despite having pockets of being able to trust in T's care on more than an intellectual level, most of the time, I still have to cognitively override my emotions (or check with my T about them) and wait through the flood of feelings that are telling me my T is secretly sick of me (whether he knows it or not), is looking for the right timing to get rid of me, is tired/overwhelmed/burdened by our work, is only working so hard with me so he can get rid of me as quickly as possible. I know these are past feelings. I know they do not accurately represent his feelings about me. He has expressed his positive feelings toward all of me over and over. I think, like AG said, these things just take time. I know it can be maddening to wait through them, talk through them, again and again. It's not easy work and you're very brave to be doing it, I think.

hi incognito... I know this feels like an eternal struggle but it will get easier. It's very difficult I know to take that step to trust and believe in what your T is telling you because in your experience with others, it just does not fit or make sense to you. Those old tapes are in the way and they have played over and over in your brain.

I do think you have a caring T who really wants to help you because you deserve to have a peaceful and fulfilling life instead of the struggle you are in now. I think he is good about his boundaries and seems to spend some time thinking about you, even when you are not in session. I wonder if you can even take that in. Sometimes my T does something to upset me and I truly find the only way to get past it is to keep discussing it until it loses it's power over me and my emotions.

I have been circling back to the same issue for 16 months now... that of losing oldT. My poor T gets to hear about this one way or another at least once a week. I still cry over what happened and I still grieve. Do you think I'm a failure or that I don't have a very good T because I am doing this?

I think you have come a long way and have tackled some really important and difficult topics with your T. I can see how you have progressed but I do understand that it's hard for you to see this at times. And you may think you are cycling back to the same issues but perhaps you are looking at them from different angles and perspectives.

I am sorry you are struggling so much lately and that your T had to cancel you last week. I hate cancellations and can understand your angst over that, especially when things are already rocky in therapy. I wish for you that you can relax into the sessions with T and find the trust you need to continue this journey with him.

Hugs
TN

Thanks for your support AG, effed, yaku, and TN.

I think one of the problems is that my T doesn't tell me something that I could try and believe. He does show caring/liking something by continuing to book sessions with me and answering my emails or phone calls usually but he doesn't say he cares or he likes working with me or he thinks I"m working hard, doing a good job, opening up more. He's never said he enjoyed talking with me or seemed happy to see me. He asked me today what he did that made me think he didn't "like" me in our regular interactions (not when he doesn't contact me) and I told him it was the lack of positive affirmation/interaction. I told him I felt like he kept seeing me because he was a professional and didn't want to leave me in a bad place. I said that when I saw the consult T in October she said she enjoyed talking with me and I believed her to my surprise. I told her she offered to be a back up T or see me if I wanted to change T's and I didn't tell him that because I was afraid if he heard that he would tell me I should go work with her and breathe a sigh of relief he could stop seeing me.

He said if I really thought he didn't care that I would quit therapy with him and so I must have some conflicting feelings. I said I wasn't sure about that because I've learned a lot from therapy with him and have improved my relationships with my husband, children, and parents. I also don't know if I'm reading him right and he doesn't really want to work with me and I would do better if I worked with another T who I had a better vibe with. Or maybe this is about how I feel about myself and this feeling would occur with any T maybe not immediately but when they got to know me and I've shown them myself, my neediness, my pain and they didn't respond to me fast enough in which case I should try and work it out with my T.

At some point today he told me that he avoids saying simple reassuring things like "i enjoyed talking to you" because he knows how much I struggle with this doubt about his feelings and he is worried that any statement like that would seem trite and insincere so he self-edits and avoids those kind of statements (probably to avoid stirring up the conversation where I would say I don't believe you). In our entire session today he didn't say anything positive. He didn't say I want to work with you or anything. I think the kindest thing he said was "it sucks that you feel that way" which is true but doesn't help me figure it out. Is it me, is it him, is it the combination of us?

I did feel this way for much of my childhood because I rarely felt liked by my family. My mother didn't like me and regularly told me what was wrong with me and that she loved me at the same time. My parents were also sticking their older children with the care of their younger children so my main memories involve people being angry they had to take care of me and playing you do it with each other. I spent a lot of time during the holidays being locked out of the rooms the older kids were playing in and being sent out of the room where the adults were. I have a large extended family that would have big family celebrations and I was so miserable I would beg to not have to go (which just made my mom angry).

I'm getting off topic but I can imagine that my feelings aren't about the present but are about the past but it would make it easier if T would tell me that isn't how he feels.

thanks again,

I can certainly understand the issue of not believing something even if your T tells you flat out. There were a few things I didn't believe from mine at first, but I do think that over time, if they keep saying it in a sincere fashion, as well as demonstrating it through actions, you will be able to believe it.

I don't know if it's the best idea for your T to self-edit and not say anything about liking to work with you or caring about you. Maybe it would cause an argument if he said it, but I think that's an argument you need to have!

Also, I'm so sorry you experienced not being liked as a kid That sounds really awful and you didn't deserve it.

quote:

I think one of the problems is that my T doesn't tell me something that I could try and believe. He does show caring/liking something by continuing to book sessions with me and answering my emails or phone calls usually but he doesn't say he cares or he likes working with me or he thinks I"m working hard, doing a good job, opening up more.

incognito, I long for this from my T, also.

It reminds me a lot of my other relationships....my mom and husband both don't say, "I love you" or say any kind words, and I have to search for their care and love in their body language or actions....

My T doesn't encourage my attachment to her, I think that is why she doesn't say anything about caring about me. I don't even have the guts to ask her if she cares about me. When I tell her I was thinking about her or needing her or something of that sort, she re-directs me to people in my life outside of therapy. I finally told her I hated when she did that and she said it was not her intention to make me feel ridiculous or stupid for going to therapy, BUT, that it wasn't healthy for me to think she is the only one in the world to understand me....

I really hate the therapeutic relationship....sometimes.

INCOGNITO,

He is being really obtuse. Tell him that you need to know it. You didn't specifically ask him although it's obvious to all of us what you want.

However, I can't help but wonder if he's intentionally trying to keep his feelings out of it. I'm wondering if you like working with him?

xoxo

Liese

((Alpaca))
I know it is so hard to believe them even when they say something. I wish he would say things even though I wouldn't believe them or might disagree with them.

((Ninn))
I'm sorry that your T doesn't encourage attachment. My T would say it is very important and he accepts it. This fall when I was very upset about how much I needed him and how eventually we would stop seeing each other he told me I was focusing on the most painful things. He used the analogy of a child of 3 or 4 who you tell they will grow up and move out and away from their family and that just seems impossibly painful to them but when they are 17 or 18 they can imagine it. He told me it be painful to remind your 4 year old everyday they had to move out and that was what I was doing to myself.

Liese,
I know obtuse is a good word for it. We had the entire discussion like it is too bad you feel that way and why do you feel that way and how do I contribute to that feeling like he assumed I knew that wasn't how he felt. I'm sure he is trying to keep his feelings out of it but it is creating an awful dynamic for me where I try to so hard to get some expression out of him and that is very much like my father and husband.

I'm not sure if I like working with him. How could I tell? because I like him better than the two other therapists I say (one was when I was in my early 20s so I was different and the other was for marriage counselling) but those were very different situations. It is hard and painful but everyone agrees that therapy is like that when you have an abusive childhood with attachment injury so I can't expect it to be fun or easy. I think he has helped me in lots of ways but I'm worried that we can't go any further because of this block. I can't learn self-care and self-compassion from someone who doesn't really care can I?

thanks for giving me a place to try and work this out from. It is very hard to see therapy clearly because I'm so attached and it has taught me a lot. I feel like DF does in that I've always struggled with liking my T and believing he likes me. It seems like all I get is the negative transference never the honeymoon period.

quote:

From an inside perspective, despite having pockets of being able to trust in T's care on more than an intellectual level, most of the time, I still have to cognitively override my emotions (or check with my T about them) and wait through the flood of feelings that are telling me my T is secretly sick of me (whether he knows it or not), is looking for the right timing to get rid of me, is tired/overwhelmed/burdened by our work, is only working so hard with me so he can get rid of me as quickly as possible.

I totally relate to this statement. It takes everything I have to try and open up with T because in the back of my mind I "know" at some point she'll be over me and my problems.

Incognito ~ I also was not and am not like by my family. My dad would outright tell people that my 2nd brother was his favorite. Even now I am just a pawn in their game. They don't like that I have gone on to be successful and indepenedent without them (I would never let them know the truth - that I suffer great pain and work through this in therapy). A friend once told me "the greatest revenge is living a sweet life". I know that sounds harsh, but for all it's worth, I want them to think that my life is so good (and it is in many ways) because I know they are mostly miserable. (((hugs)))

(((((incognito)))) I just wanted to send some hugs, and let you know I'm thinking of you.

Love,

BB

((((Incognito)))))

I know how painful and frustrating these sort of exchanges can be. I went through a difficult period with my T in late summer over similar issues. Even now I still struggle sometimes when she doesn't respond in a way that I wanted her to, or doesn't reply to certain things in texts. But it has gotten tremendously better.

One thing that helps me is to realize that even I do not always reply to texts/emails/etc. from some of the people I care about the most immediately or at all when I am really busy. I love and adore my best friend, but right before Christmas I was preparing for a big move out of state and also going through a breakup and trying to prepare for Christmas. I completely stopped emailing her altogether during that time. It wasn't that I stopped caring about her or thinking about her. I just had so much going on.

So when I look at it from that angle, I am able to take it less personally when T doesn't get back to me right away or doesn't respond to all of my texts.

Another thing that has helped me stay calm and not freak out too much when she doesn't respond right away or at all is that I am seeing how much better the relationship with her is when I just chill out a little and not beat this issue to death with her in therapy, which I had been doing. She was losing her patience with me when I did that, but when I backed off and started giving her more praise when she has been helpful or very accommodating, she became so much warmer and kind again. I guess I've had to learn the hard way that repeatedly telling her that I don't feel cared about does nothing but push her away.

I know it can feel so frustrating when you have the same issue cropping up with T, but unfortunately I think getting through these issues with T is actually some of the most important work you will do in therapy. And when you are able to work through it in T, you will be able to better deal with this same issue in your personal life.

XOXO, I like the article that you linked. Thanks for sharing that.

thanks for the hugs BB. I hope your holiday was good and things are going okay for you

It is nice to hear from you LG. I have to admit my T never appears frustrated by my insistence that I think he is going to quit or doesn't like me or that therapy is hopeless. He is willing to talk more about it but I'm the one who just wants to shut down and move away. I don't think I can let the topic go even though I think it might be wiser for me to. I'm glad that the relationship is getting better.

xoxo, thanks for the article. I wonder if my T thinks I'm doing so well I don't need the support as much as I used to. The week before Christmas I had a nice session with my T that didn't address any of these issues and afterwards I was so angry and frustrated about that it led to several emails and a couple of phone calls. I had my next appointment last Friday and that was also painful and difficult but at least we managed to talk a little bit about these issues. My T manages to always keep the focus on me and my feelings which is how it is supposed to be but means that he avoids saying anything I could take as positive. I am such a chicken I didn't ask him any clear questions like "do you want to continue to work with me" or "how do you show me that you care about me" or anything like that.

Instead I told him how frustrated and hopeless I feel about therapy and us ever getting past this issue. He told me that he thinks that I think in such black and white terms "he cares or he doesn't" "i'm okay or I'm not" that I can't recognize the nuances of the relationship that some actions (like not calling me back) don't represent the proof that he doesn't care. I told him I get that intellectually but not emotionally. I told him the session felt like I tell him how I feel, he explains that my reasoning is faulty, I understand that but it doesn't change the feelings, and we hit a wall. After listening to the recording of the session (he knows I record) tonight I realize I feel like a colour blind person and he is telling me "you are in a lot of pain because you are looking at the world in black and white and if you just notice the colour you will feel better" unfortunately he doesn't know how to teach me to look for the colour or he doesn't realize that my eyes don't have the cones and rods required to see colour. I'm not sure what to talk about next. He isn't going to say anything positive, even at the end of friday's session when I wished him happy new year, he looked surprised and then said it might seem odd and insincere after what we were talking about but I hope you have a happy new year too. I read something once about therapy being an excuse to keep two people in close contact for enough time for limbic resonance to help rewire one person's mind (the unhealthy client's) on the pattern of the other's (the healthier T's). I'm doing a very poor job of paraphrasing this concept and I apologize to the author I can't remember because it had to do with right-brain right-brain interactions, mirror neurons, limbic resonance and neuroscience. Friday's session made me wonder if I'm exerting the opposite effect on my T so he is becoming more hopeless and negative the longer he sees me.

Thanks for asking about me, xoxo. I'm glad your session with your T helped resolved your texting hiatus and you feel like your relationship with him is excellent.

This is a little off topic, but I read about this very interesting (to me) technique recently:

http://emdrandbeyond.com/gener...nterweave-technique/

It's called a "two hand interweave" and it's supposed to be good for resolving black-and-white thinking. The article doesn't really explain how to do it, but I believe the T asks the client to put one side of the dilemma in each hand (metaphorically) and then applies some kind of bilateral stimulus like in EMDR. Then the client just observes what happens. I guess the point is that you're not trying to "reason out" the conflicting sides, but rather holding them simultaneously while seeing if your brain will grow some new connections between them due to the stimulation.

I played with this technique by myself a little. Since I don't own any of the usual equipment for EMDR, I just opened and closed my hands in an alternating way. I don't think it's as effective as what you'd get doing it with a T, but I did notice a bit of movement in my perception of the situation.

To me, trying something like this might be more useful than just pointing out either-or thinking.

quote:

it was like-'oh, I am doing that. I remember in training (and that was like 40 years ago!) my therapist pointed out i was doing that, so here i go again-I'm arguing with you instead of listening and understanding.' Problem solved!

That's so funny, xoxo. Of course it isn't easy! That reminds me of the time my T told be about how her son got a smaller present than his cousin, and how she remembered to let him feel jealous instead of trying to talk him out of it. I immediately said now I was the one who was jealous (of not having a parent like her) and do you know what she did?? She tried to talk me out of it! LOL! She said, "Well, you only hear about my good parenting moments, not when I mess up." I was like, "Umm, that doesn't make me feel any better," so then she came back to listening to me.