quote:

My only protective action is to separate myself from her. But that can't last forever, so then the cycle repeats.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but sometimes it does last forever and it is for the best. I tried the limited contact route for a long time, but like you kept finding myself back in the cycle. Eventually it came to the point where I had to end contact for good. I'm not saying it is what you should do or that it isn't without tremendous pain, but sometimes it is what has to be done. (((hugs)))

spagirl, oh, i ache for you. i was where you are last year, and i had to lay down the law and have no contact while i tried to regain my footing in life, this went on about six months, and the entire family went with her, basically all (the aunt included) telling me they know she is a biXXX but they (parents) are so old, and why not just have a stiff upper lip (basically, just put up with her) for the benefit of my dad (who is not mean spirited, but emotionally ignorant). which, i coulda done had i not had one toe just outside the door of the mental hospital.

so, a year and months down the pathway, i have got to embrace the fact that she will (1) never change, (2) will never see anything from my perspective, (3) will never be the mother i should have had, (4) and that, and this is the one i am daily working on, the ANGER i feel for the years wasted trying to please her, will only hurt ME to hold on to.

spagirl, i am assuming alot, but it sounds like you try SO HARD to be the good girl, and i know how hard that is to do, especially when it is never enough to get the relationship you want...i just hate the pain it causes you, and it is NOT fair, you DON'T deserve that. but it IS the way it IS.

please toss this aside if it doesn't relate.

i read recently something about 'when will i quit trying to fix my childhood(something that happened over thirty-five years ago') and it just pointed out the absurdity in what i was STILL doing, and that was 'trying to create something that never was'!!! i have also read alot about truth/reality versus fantasy/denial. and i realize now that the dam finally broke in my life last year when i FINALLY SAW the STARK REALITY of my parents and my childhood.

the efforts i went to try to make it different were none less than heroic, but, i guess, much to my t's surprise, apparently, i am the eternal optimist! hope springs eternal. but, t has been doing a pretty good job of erradicating any traces of hope in changing them. so, what i am left with, is relooking at reality.

and, you, spagirl, are just trying to be good and kind, but, you have to be good to you, too.

i hope you have some peace with this, and i know the holidays get it all going again, so good luck with that....jill

Hi SpaGirl,

Hugs to you ((((((SpaGirl)))))) My heart hurts to hear the poisonous way your mother treats you. My mother also treated me in a toxic way ever since I can remember. I've told you some of it in other posts so I won't go into it here, except to say I can relate to the basic dynamic, and I hope what I share with you might give you some hope that you can remove yourself from the toxicity.

I found what you said here very interesting:

quote:

My only protective action is to separate myself from her. But that can't last forever, so then the cycle repeats.

About a year and a half ago, in reaction to an unreasonable demand from my mother, I very suddenly and firmly put up boundaries with my mother that "separated" us. It was like something in me finally said "Enough!!!" I did it to survive...for protective reasons, as you put it. But it also felt really good, like such a relief, that I hardly felt any guilt. I didn't know whether it would last "forever" or not...but the shift in my thinking was, if she DIDN'T want it to "last forever", then SHE was going to have to do some changing...and I wasn't going to be the one responsible for changing her. I wouldn't expect anyone to do that for me, right? So why did I think I had to do it for her?

I didn't say any of this to her...but I think maybe she got the gist of it from the change in boundaries. Interestingly enough, my mom has changed quite a lot since that happened. It hasn't been linear, or continual, and I'm sure there are other factors other than my boundaries involved, of course...but she is actually getting involved in the community, participating in various activities, going to the YMCA...and I just found out she is applying for a grant to go back to school (she's 61). That last part just about knocked me over when I heard it...I NEVER thought she would do that. I am really excited for her. She's even taking a computer class and just recently sent me a friend request on Facebook. I am happy for her...happily surprised at the changes...still wary...and when my T asks me how I feel about this I have no idea how to respond.

But I just wanted to tell you, it IS okay to set firm boundaries to protect yourself and keep them there, regardless of your mom's reaction to them. And there is always hope that she will change...but regardless, YOU will change, you will grow and thrive when you are no longer accepting her poisonous treatment of you.

Good luck, SpaGirl...let us know how it goes.

SG

Do you know what it is? It's not knowing whether what just happened was a normal fight, or not. While you're in the moment, it feels really heated and horrible. But the next day, you think, "Well, it wasn't THAT bad. Let's forgive and forget ... poor woman, and all that." So how do you know if this is "normal"? I can only assume, since I've never been in one, that "normal" means the person causing the damage, admits it and apologizes the next day, right??? Or that there is some acknowledgment. Especially when you take the time to bring up how her words make you feel.

We just don't get along. It doesn't always look that way, from outward appearances a stranger wouldn't have a clue as to this dysfunction. But historically, it's been a very tense relationship. I seem to be the one doing all the DOING. I call her. I do the invites to get out and DO something, whether it's dinner, or a movie, or whatever. If I waited for her to call me, I think I'd be sitting quite a while.

Then the guilt gets to me. "Maybe I was in the wrong? Maybe I should just overlook her and get on with trying to have a positive relationship with her --- she is the ONLY MOTHER I'll ever have." And since no one else is around to back me up (and no one in the "family" - I use that term loosely - ever has my back) I feel like if I don't do something I REALLY WILL be ALONE: totally and completely. So I call yet again and try to make nice.

This is what I mean by the cycle.


It's not that her damage is so black and white --- that she's a monster or anything. Heck, I know there are A LOT worse mother's out there. BUT ... when do I get to have it My Way? When can I enjoy just one complete week without her running commentary: that's good/that's bad/I don't approve/the martyr/the guilt trip or manipulation?

I feel like there is nothing I can share with her that is safe. I always have to hear the world thru her eyes and negativity. For all of the situations where we could have been building a bond, she has pissed on all of them.

Once after a vacation I came back and told someone what a good time we BOTH had together - no fights, no disagreements, just an easy flow and a good time. I told my Mom that I was happy to report to someone how good we got along ... what does she say? "Well, I was BITING MY TONGUE the WHOLE time!" And then went on to berate me "You're this/You're that". I just shook my head in disbelief. WHAT THE HELL IS SHE TALKING ABOUT??? WHERE WERE THESE EVENTS SHE WAS NOW REMEMBERING AS SO TENSE AND HORRIBLE??? This is also why I began to wonder if she isn't BPD? THAT would explain A LOT! But, of course, people with that disorder are the ones who never see themselves in the wrong, and never seek treatment. They just shit all over the innocent people to get their jollies.


It's really sad to sit and reflect back on all the memories you have of your Mother and all of them are tainted in one way or another.

I go to her house to spend the night one Christmas, and within the first few minutes she starts on me, this particular Christmas Eve night it was "You've BROKEN MY closet door!" What the TRUTH was is I had "opened" a door that was already off it's hinge.

Again on vacation, I was driving behind my cousin on a very deserted highway, with no traffic whatsoever. The scenery was gorgeous. I wanted to see more of it, instead of the bumper of my cousin's van. So I pulled into the second lane (still behind him, mind you). Mom has a hemorrhage. The only good part was that my younger cousin was in the back seat and could witness all of this. She yelled at me to get back behind my cousin and if I didn't she was not going to let me drive any more! She screamed at me as if I was a 14-year old with a driver's permit and I was going to pull off ahead of my cousin and go wild or something. It was so over the top and outlandish, I tried to push the two-way radio so that the other "family" members could hear her rage.

My former friend, Eric, has always maintained that my mom, and for that matter, no one in my "family" has any respect for me. "They treat you like a retarded child." as he puts it.


So that's the battle. Comments that hurt, then a cooling off period, then I make the first step (very rarely she does and I'm always suspicious), we manage a level 5 relationship until the next negative or destructive comment.


.

Oh, I know what the other problem is: I like HARMONY. Living with the feeling that we aren't speaking tears me up inside. So I try to make nice so that I can feel we're back to a good place.

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quote:

Originally posted by Blanket Girl:

quote:

My only protective action is to separate myself from her.

I have had to do this, and it is very painful. But the self worth I've gained in not allowing myself to be hurt over and over has been worth it.

I agree with this. How truly awful to have this kind of a relationship with your Mom, and how painful to truly walk away, but it sounds like it might be a viable option for you. No one, and I mean no one, should be treated they way she's treating you, much less by their own mother. What does your T say about it?

Hello SpaGirl - I think we might have the same mothers! LOL.
Ok - serious now. I've lived the same situation as you with my mother. With the help of my T, I learned to do what I need to do for me, and only me, as contact with my mother. I think it is a family thing. I was always told that "family is all you ever have" "your family is the only ones who will ever be there for you" Ofr course, this is wrong, especially in a very disfunctional family. But they tell us that and we believe them, because they are our parents. Crazy isn't it? We know they are so bad for us and yet we keep going back for more. It's like a drug and you need it no matter what. Let me tell you what I have done and maybe you could try it.
I decided that I would go to their house, phone, family functions mostly when I wanted to. Some of course are mandatory but I would go. I decided though, that if things started to go crazy, mom making her remarks, being nasty or whatever, rather than argue or stay and feel like crap, I would just get up and say, I have to go. I would be met with all kinds of verbal taunts, but I just said, it's fine, but I have to go. I would then leave. A couple of times I even got phone calls, but I let the answering machine get them until I was ready to talk to her. Mind you, this was the hardest thing for me to do, but boy did it feel good in the moment. I took charge and left. Stood my ground. and then the guilt came. Horrible guilt. Suicidal guilt. What is wrong with me? How could I treat my family so badly? WHAT???!!! Me? NO!!!! It was they who treated me badly.
Now, I still have tremendous guilt that I don't see them as much as I "should" However, I have been able to keep my distance from them so that I am not completely overpowered by their "love" (NOT).
Anyway, it is a battle that goes on inside me continually but I know that if I let myself get taken over by them again, I will die for sure. So I do what is best for me. I see them on occasion, I talk to them on occasion and that's it. No extras from me. If I try to give something - I know it is a sign to them that they can start emitting those claw things that draw me back in. It's like a frickin horror movie!

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Smiley

spagirl. i do ache for your pain in this. it is hard to grasp that one's own mother can be so jaded. i have accepted it, somewhat, but i still think i am looking for change in her, but it never really seems to happen.

i must ask you though, your quote: "This is also why I began to wonder if she isn't BPD? THAT would explain A LOT! But, of course, people with that disorder are the ones who never see themselves in the wrong, and never seek treatment. They just shit all over the innocent people to get their jollies."

i am not sure this is right. i think that refers more to a sociopath or narcissistic personality. myself, being one with bpd traits, i know that i ALWAYS see myself as the one doing wrong, i don't know that that is an 'either/or' trait, but i feel compelled to say that this picture of bpd is not quite right.

anyway, no over reaction on that, but, just a mention.

too, i think you are getting alot of good advise here, and it seems to be a concensus of one opinion.

good luck with this, and i hope your t can be helpful in understanding the limits of her personality in a way that doesn't leave you battered and worn.

jill

Thanks everybody. It really helps hearing from each of you.

What is seeming to be the most difficult thing is "the day after" syndrome. When the feelings don't feel as hurt, you start to wonder if you over-reacted. (Which, btw, is a favorite manipulation of hers! - It must work, huh? Come to think of it, wouldn't that be exactly what my Aunt would say to me? She would invalidate my feelings and my experience and tell me to just ignore my mom's bad and hurtful words/behavior. This line of thought is getting more and more interesting.)

So I guess the question is: What do I do when I WANT to reach out to her? When I WANT to ask her to a movie, or dinner. Because SOME TIMES it does go okay. Notice that I didn't say great. We live on a scale of 1-10 at about a 5. A 6 would be watching her laugh at a movie.

Oooh, here's one more thing: sharing & bonding. Of all the good experiences I can recall, it's as if she is having these by herself, even tho. I'm there. There never seems to be a "we" experience. She says, "I'll take you to dinner." instead of "Let's go to dinner." Eric thinks she's stuck in the past when I actually was a child, since that is how she seems to treat me/see me. It's like she doesn't know what to do with a grown daughter. One of her favorite sayings is "I can't die, I'm waiting for you to GROW UP." (PS- I'll be 46 this month!) OR --- she wants to continue seeing me as a child, because that would mean SHE wasn't getting older (and closer to the end). Hmmm.


I can relate this to a marriage that's gone bad. Even if they separate they still have to communicate because of the kids or business dealings like selling the house, etc. And, the fact that it ISN'T all bad makes it worse. It would be so much easier to truly cut ties if she was always abusive. But sometimes she can be overwhelmingly generous, and some of the time pleasant, even.



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