(((((KASHLEY))))

Don't know what to say except that I feel for you. I have my own views of dependency and I think it's okay especially when someone is working so hard, like you are. It sucks that T said that right before the end of a session. I hope you can talk more to her about it all. Bring in some articles?

Oh Kashley

I hate it when T's have awful timing like that. That's one of those bomb-dropping-like topics that should only be brought up at the BEGINNING of a session, when you are feeling calm. I am sorry. But you are not wrong for depending on her. You are doing a very good thing in trying to lean on her. I am sure she just wants you to have MORE support, not trying to say that you are clingy. Still, it feels horrible, I know...

Thank you so much, you two. ((hugs)) I'm going to try my hardest to talk to her next time. It's just..gosh. My mind is so freaking twisted right now with tons of other stuff, and then this session happened and then she tells me she doesn't want me to be so dependent on her, and then she tells me that I can call if I need to?

Sigh.

(((((KASHLEY))))

quote:

then she tells me she doesn't want me to be so dependent on her, and then she tells me that I can call if I need to?

All very confusing. She's definitely not being clear and sending mixed signals. It's no wonder you are confused and in pain.

Kashley - I'm not sure what to say my dear but wanted you to know I'm listening. I'm so sorry that your T brought that up at the end of session and I can completely relate to where you're coming from. I've gotten some mixed messages from my Ts before, too. Thinking of you.

((((kash))))

I'm sorry. That would have totally destabilized me. But, from the outside, I think your T wants to have resources. My T is very OK with my (ugh) attachment/dependency/connection needs and he still has encouraged me to make use of other (safe) resources as well. I'm sure that's all it is and especially with the limitations due to your mutual schedule conflict, she wants to know that there are other "safe" places for you to go when things get difficult. But, I would absolutely feel trapped by the mixed message there and scared, so experientially, I get it. I have definitely been there before. I hope you're able to tell her about all the things you heard when she said that and all the feelings and fears that came up, next time, if you aren't able to trust her words and past behavior and reach out sooner. I definitely think it is more about caring about you and wanting you to be safe/supported more than the framework of the therapy is able to provide right now, just from all you've said about her in the past. I would look at it more like her realization of her own limitations only seeing you one hour a week during a lunch break when you need to stay contained than anything about you being too much.

That said, again, I don't want your feelings to be invalidated here, because I definitely would be freaking out too. It's scary when your trust has been damaged badly to reach out and believe that those who are safe will stay that way or not abandon you. You have 100% valid reasons for fearing it, because you have experienced it and the interactions with your parents (on top of the work stress you're experiencing) only serve as a potent reminder of it.

Most of all, just here listening with hugs and prayers.

You guys are wonderful...thank you. I'm not in a great place tonight and my head is still spinning from everything today. Especially the crisis with the student. I've never been on the other side of that threat of suicide. It's odd to see and experience both sides at the same time.

My T..ah she's been so wonderful to me for so long and kept talking in long term words today, so I'd like to believe that she isn't just slowly pushing me out. I've never had such a freak out over this weird relationship before.

Anyway, I need to distract and decompress tonight. I'll be back soon to respond individually to all of you lovely people.

(((kashley))) hope you are getting through this. Thinking of you and sending hugs

((Liese)) ((Cat)) Thank you for the validation that she's sending mixed messages...a lot of times I don't even trust my own interpretation of things.

((Anon)) Thanks so much for your support...it's so good to see you here. ((hugs)) I know that what you said is exactly what she's trying to do..I think maybe it was just the timing. I had spent the whole session shaking and terrified and still wasn't out of it but I had to rush back to work since we went over by a few minutes. And so I was still in that in between place - that one that toes the line between the present and the past - when she brought this up, so there were a million different reactions to it.

My guess is that if and when I do talk about this with her, she'll probably have at least taken note of that moment as one that could possibly have been unsettling, and I know she'll at least be glad I brought it up, because she recently reiterated to me that she wants me to let her know whenever she does anything that's hurtful. But there's still a part of me that is convinced that the more time that goes by, the more she is going to try to get rid of me. And so that part has grabbed hold of that moment where she started talking about dependency and is parading it around.

((Starfishy)) Thank you for the hugs, lovely.

I'm just so, so dysregulated after yesterday. And so confused. I just generally kind of feel like I'm going crazy. My head can't tolerate all of this. I do have to call my T today because I needed to leave so quickly from my session to get back to work that we just decided I could call and schedule. Unless T brings something up on the phone, which I don't think she will, I don't intend on talking about this over the phone. I'm crappy with the phone as it is, but I would freak out if we talked about this and I couldn't see her reactions (I've discovered that the phone is so unsettling to me because I can't read people as much as I usually do). It's funny...just thinking about calling her is scary, for many reasons including the obvious, but it's also comforting. That's a first for me (ugh, attachment).

Anyway, thanks for the support and helping me see both sides of this. I came out of there yesterday absolutely convinced that she wanted to get rid of me. That feeling isn't completely gone, but it's a little better right now.

Talked to T, but only about scheduling. And of course the only time that worked for both of us was during lunch. I honestly feel like we need hours to talk about this, because it goes down to such fundamental stuff. And now I'm feeling that whole "leave before you're left" thing. Not because I'm totally convinced that she's trying to push me out now, but the whole thing is just a reminder that it does have to end sometime. And I guess I just don't have much hope that it will end well, and this little rupture or whatever has reminded me of that. This situation seems like it has been a giant trigger. And I'm scared, because I'm rapidly beginning to deteriorate into this hopeless place, although I feel stupid for it. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

((((kash))))

Considering the past experiences that this one is triggering feelings from, it is actually the opposite. You've made yourself believe it was a molehill all these years through dissociating every time you had to see how terrifying it was. Now you finally see it was a huge mountain. Just my opinion.

I gave up on the leave before you're left approach and now have settled on the "Refuse to connect (even if I let the kids do it), so the eventual slap in the face of this being a professional relationship is meaningless." T and I are actually talking about that this week. I have no advice on how to get around this. It sucks.

I can advise that having your (safe) T know how you're feeling in the midst of all that and validate your feelings, however scary it is to be vulnerable and put them out there, feels a hell of a lot better than holding onto them alone. But, the risk of doing so is often too much for me, so I get if it's impossible to do. Is there any way you could send your T a message just introducing the topic, since your time is so limited in your next session. In that way, you'd actually be helping her. If letting her know about it ahead of time can make the next session more grounded and allow you to process all you absolutely need to in the one lunch time hour and then contain, I think you'd be doing BOTH of you a favor. Just food for thought, knowing it still may be impossible to do. Usually I pawn that job off on a dispassionate observing part (like it'll send a message telling T, "XYZ is an issue that needs to be addressed immediately in the next session to promote stability" or something), so it's not like I'm really brave about it.

Lots more

((Anon)) Thank you..I suppose you're right about the mountain. I feel a lot of self-hate bubbling up, probably because some parts of me are angry that we even began therapy with her because, of course this is how it was always going to turn out.

I had been thinking about calling T back a bit after we hung up and telling her that, actually, no..I'm not "good" as I said in the first call. I was thinking about doing that as I drove home, but of course then I saw T's car parked on the street and knew she was out doing something, so I didn't want to bother her.

Now I'm thinking about maybe writing out what I want to say, because I think I might chicken out if I don't, and I do want to make the most out of that hour. I mean, I've brought my feelings into her office plenty, but I've just never brought in my feelings when they have to do with pointing out something she's done that didn't sit right with me. Can't believe it's been nearly 2 1/2 years and this is the first time I'm doing this. I'm terrified. It's also extremely scary, because I barely ever even acknowledge that the relationship means anything to me, so to talk to her about how afraid I am that I'm being pushed out? And then that means that I feel like I need her, and then that means I'm being dependent, and then it all comes full circle again...

I wonder if it would be okay if I post my letter (or whatever it turns into) here for feedback? I think I'm definitely going to at least write one and then decide in the moment if I want to use it.

Hey there Kashley -

Firstly, of course you are feeling this way. It makes perfect sense to me that with your history this would feel like a rejection, and a rejection would make you feel all sorts of other things like panic and terror and wanting to run.

Secondly, I don't think she is pushing you away AT ALL. I think she genuinely cares for you. I think she sees you doing an incredible job of trusting her and connecting to her and attaching to her. I think she must be so proud of your work to encourage you to go out there and do more of it; she must think you are so ready for more (good job, you!)! I guess I picture the attachment between the two of you like a cord connecting your two hearts. She isn't cutting the cord at all, she's just saying, let's make you even stronger by adding more cords to ours.

Does that make sense? But I do encourage you to talk to/write to her about what you are feeling. She cares for you - she will take care of you!

Hey Meta,

Your post helped so much, and I love the image of the cord. It's so powerful. And you're so kind with your words...It's comforting to read what you said, because I can see my T in your words. It helps some to have that to hold on to so that I can at least have a break from all of the negative feelings that keep popping up. It seems like no matter how much I manage to convince myself that my T really is okay with me, my mind flickers back to each instance that gives me doubt (which, admittedly, is very few).

I wrote up a letter today. I'm going to hold on to it and bring it in with me, but sharing all of that with her absolutely terrifies me to the very core. It seems so simple, sharing something hurtful with someone that I (as much as I'm able) trust. A while ago, T reminded me that she wanted me to share with her any time she does or says something that I interpret as hurtful, and she said that she knew it would be hard for me to do. I just don't know if I fully understand why. I think I kind of get it, but not completely.

Anyway, I'm just rambling at this point. I'm doing what I can to make it day to day, until our session on Tuesday. I'm miserable deep down, but I'm somehow able to keep it from overwhelming me, although it's still not pleasant. I wish I didn't have to wait until next week to get all of this worked out.

Rambling again. Thanks MMM and everyone else who has posted or even read this. (((hugs)))

I had the talk with her, and to sum it up, it went very well.

For the first part of the session, we talked about some family drama going on. I may elaborate later, but in a VERY condensed version: My father is angry with me, I wasn't planning on patching it up. This was going to be my opportunity to break off from him. Instead, my mother "patched" it up for me. So now, my opportunity to break off from him is gone. Again, very condensed, but that's essentially what has happened.

I did find the guts to bring up how I felt after she talked about dependency and that I knew, realistically, what she was wanting, but that I also heard it as her saying that she wanted me out. She was shaking her head, and when I stopped talking, she asked if I wanted to ask her the question. So I did, and she said (something along the lines of) that she absolutely doesn't want to get rid of me, that she doesn't have plans for retiring soon (that's been another secret worry of mine), that she only wants to help me branch out in case she's not available or something happens to her. She said that she thinks of us having a very strong bond and she wants me to branch out and bond with others (even if it's an animal), even if it makes our bond weaker. She then said that she thought that since our bond was so strong that I would be ready to branch out even if it meant the bond weakens, but that I absolutely don't have to do that if I don't feel that is the case. She asked me a few times throughout the session if I could tell by her voice that she doesn't want me out.

Here's the thing she said that has me reeling (I can't tell if it's in a good or bad way):

She said that she doesn't know if I love her, but she loves me and her encouraging me to receive support from people other than her is the greatest gift of love that she thinks she can give me. She said that love shouldn't be bondage like it has been in my family, and that I am allowed to have other meaningful relationships in my life.

She then talked about how there's not much else that she loves more than connecting with people, etc. Love is such a loaded word...I just don't know what to think. I felt blindsided when she said that. The thing is that I'm trying not to look at it as right or wrong based on things I've heard or read about therapists saying that to clients. I'm just trying to experience it without all of that external info trying to tell me how to interpret it. I don't want that one word to sour what has been an amazing relationship with her. I just can't tell if it will at this point. I didn't say anything to her about the comment, because I need to digest it first and get past the shock that she actually said it and then figure out how I feel about it.

For the rest of the session we talked about my shame surrounding relationships and how I felt so ashamed to even be afraid that she wanted to kick me out. She told me several times how glad she was that I brought this up and that it says a lot about the relationship that I'm now to the point where I can bring up things she does that don't sit right with me and I can see that we can work through it.

Anyway, I've gotta run. I just wanted to share...If nothing else, we got a lot out in the open.

Hi Kashley... I think you did fabulous work today with your T and you should be proud of yourself. You can also plainly see how far you have come in that now you can question her, confront her and it's okay. You are feeling safe enough to do this. As for her saying the word love...well it's obvious that the relationship you now have with her is full of love and care so she just put a tag on it... a word. It really does not change the relationship itself. You are still safe with her, you still need her and she does not want you to leave her.

I think she is showing you that it's okay and possible to love more than one person at a time and that you don't love her less if you branch out and connect with others. I know my son loves me very much and we are very attached but he also adores my sister (his aunt) and calls and texts her often. I am proud that he can make these kinds of connections and attachments. That he feels safe to depend on others who show they are trustworthy. It's a really good thing. I agree with your T that it's a gift.

I do understand that the L word is loaded and VERY hard to take in and it can also be scary. I've never heard that word from either T and I doubt I ever will although my current T says it's normal that there is love in a therapeutic relationship that goes deep over a long period of time. He tells me he is human and he feels the feelings too in the room. I do know that I am struggling right at this moment to just take in the extraordinary care he gives/offers to me.

Great job getting this topic out in the open.

Hugs
TN

(((((KASHLEY))))

So glad it went well. I would love to hear the love word from my T although I never will. He said something like he wants me to feel it. And I do feel it. I feel how much he cares about me by the things he does for me. IMO, we are all human - even therapists. It boggles my mind that a therapist couldn't or wouldn't love a long-term client. I don't understand it. Personally, I wouldn't pay too much attention to what the nay-sayers say about a T loving their client. But that's just me. As she herself said, it sounds like her love is a free kind of love with no strings attached. That's the best kind.

(((kashley)))

I'm glad your session went so well. Sorry about the family stuff, though. As for the love thing, I agree above that her feelings for you are the same ones that have made you feel safe thus far. If the label itself is not helpful, or makes things scary, then I'd focus on the growing feeling of safety and comfort in the relationship itself. I have also struggled with panic on whether or not it's ok to love and be loved by my T, but in the end, we're not talking about something that can really be helped when you work with someone so deeply. It just is what it is, so when the L word gets tossed around (especially by the littles), I try to focus on their feelings of safety and care more than the word. I don't know if you feel like you love her or not, but if you do, I think it's totally normal (maybe unavoidable) to feel that way toward people who prove themselves to be caring and trustworthy over time.

Hey guys. Sorry for my delay in replying. Thank you again for helping me see everything a little clearer.

I spent a lot of time yesterday thinking about how I feel about her saying that she loves me, and yes, it is scary, but it's the kind of scary that will eventually turn to safety once I can see that she won't abuse that "power." Because, I do trust her - even more now because of yesterday's session. It's not complete trust, but it's deeper than I've ever felt before. She had known something that I hadn't, which is that love was/is a sort of bondage in my family, like a right, and so it IS a wonderful gift if she loves me but allows me to grow and establish other meaningful relationships. We'd never talked about love before, so until yesterday, I really hadn't ever thought of what love meant to me.

TN - Thanks for the reminder that even though the word is loaded, that it doesn't change the relationship. You are exactly right. And, although it was absolutely terrifying, I've never had the experience of confronting anyone (no matter how gently) and having it be okay, so to have that experience with her was tremendously healing.

((Liese)) - I'm so glad you can feel your T's love. I had to explain to my T yesterday that I have a hard time figuring out what I feel in regards to the relationship because it is all new to me and I have no basis for comparison. I think I'm also shocked at her telling me that, because I largely believe that I am unlovable...until she said it, I honestly didn't believe that she loved me. I knew she cared a lot, but love? I guess I was proved wrong.

Anon - Yeah, I've decided to do exactly what you said and just focus on the feelings and not the word. I don't know if I love her or not. A lot of times I have so many conflicting feelings toward her that it's so hard to decipher all of them. It all feels right and wrong at the same time, if you know what I mean.

Thanks again for the support everyone. I feel blessed to have my T.